Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

[Emperor Tippy]

So, are you saying you don't mind SG spending all his money on candle of invocations and start churning out solars or make an efreeti chain?

Equipment is stronger than classes in 3.X. If it's anything goes, the class itself is irrelevant, and the player who best spends his WBL will win.

Sure he can, I can do the same though.

But his purpose is to keep me from using scrolls of 9th level spells. Specifically, a Scroll of Disjunction. Like MoP, I don't need it but I would use it if allowed. And all of my wizard builds above level 10 or so have at least 1 for emergencies in the first place.

The purpose of the No Morphing one is to keep me from using PaO and doing fun stuff with that, I didn't plan on using it anyways (too much paper work) but its another pointless restriction. Just like core only.

[Sir Giacomo]

No. The farthest I will go in weakening myself is core only with no PrC's. If we are banning spells then I'm not doing it. And you do realize that you would loose enlarge person if you did that?

Must...control...urge...to...produce...too...much. ..saliva... You do realise that with morph in, the monk might have some nasty kind of form?
I mean, just about every single monk ability stacks with morph.

No. If it is a core item I can buy and use it.

Er...candle of invocation ftw?

No. House rules aren't game or again, find another person to play batman.

DMG p. 199.

Fine, I don't care what items you do or do not have.

OK

-----

If you want to claim that you can take on batman then you need to actually take on batman, not some artificially limited quasi batman.

Unfortunately no-one around here (in particular the monk-haters) will take you seriously if you use 9th level spell item and morph cheese.

An, and I forgot: no LA +1 and more races. Your grey elf would be OK, then.

- Giacomo

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Level 15 Core Fighter:

Orc Fighter 15 32 PB:

Stats: (PB-Racial-levels-items)
Str 18-22-24-30
Dex 15-15-16-22
Con 14-14-20
Int 8-6-6-6
Wis 10-10-10-10
Cha 8-6-6-6

Feats: Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Two Weapon Fighting, ITWF, GTWF, Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Weapon Specialization (Greatsword), GWF (GS), GWS (GS), Weapon Focus (Armor Spikes), Weapon Specialization (Armor Spikes), GWF (AS), GWS (AS)

Items: +6 Str, +6 Con, +6 Dex, x4 1st level Pearl of Power, x3 Pearl of Power 3rd level, Mithril Chain Shirt with Armor Spikes +1 Shocking, +1 Icy Greatsword, Boots of Speedy Wings, Cloak of Resistance +5.

So the Fighter has enough Pearls of Power to seriously get a +3 Chain Shirt every day, and both his weapons to +3 with Greater Magic Weapon, and an Enlarge effect for each standard encounter.

Of course after that, because of the way Pearls of Power work, the casters will still have a Greater Magic Weapon, a Magic Vestment, and an Enlarge left. So his Half Orc Monk cohort "companion" can freeload a bit.

In the mean time, on his first round of combat, the Fighter can charge for +33 and do 3d6+28+1d6Cold damage for an average damage of 42. Or power attacking for his likely +2 to hit over the Divine Powered Half Orc Monk, 46 damage. Or power attacking for his advantage over the non-Divine Powered Monk +9, for 60 damage.

Following that he can full attack at +29/+29/+25/+25/+20/+20 for alternatively 42 and 24 damage.

Note the ways he exceeds a "high Str, high damage half orc Monk":
1) More damage in a single attack
2) More damage in a full attack
3) More attacks in a full attack
4) Higher AC
5) Higher Touch AC
6) Absolutely no buff time required, since apparently it only takes 1 round of buffing to cast Divine Power and Enlarge, so Enlarge must have a casting time of one free action or be always active.
7) Dare I say it? More then Double the HP? Wholly crazy town Batman!
8) Can fly and haste himself. Because he's awesome like that.

So yeah, Fighters do more damage then Monks. They really really do. Also, your Monk "grapple" build would die in five seconds. It's cute.

{Scrubbed}

[Griffin131]

Unfortunately no-one around here (in particular the monk-haters) will take you seriously if you use 9th level spell item and morph cheese.

I'd like to know who these monk haters are -- I love the monk. I play Fighters slightly more than monks, but those two over all other classes.

I just recognize a steaming pile of poo when I step in it.

An, and I forgot: no LA +1 and more races. Your grey elf would be OK, then.

Why are you trying to impose all these different restrictions? It's like you're going to try and come out and say "I'm effective under these exact circumstances, and it doesn't matter if they're not common!!"

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Unfortunately no-one around here (in particular the monk-haters) will take you seriously if you use 9th level spell item and morph cheese.

Why not? He's using an item that he will have access to in one level and can activate with a 100% success rate, much more acceptable then a character dedicated to casting spells he will never ever be able to cast.

{Scrubbed}

[Emperor Tippy]

Must...control...urge...to...produce...too...much. ..saliva... You do realise that with morph in, the monk might have some nasty kind of form?
I mean, just about every single monk ability stacks with morph.

I PaO into a choker for 2 standard actions. I bring 2 scrolls of disjunction with me. The odds of your polymoprh making it through are low, and if you manage it then my quickened greater dispel magic gets rid of it.

Er...candle of invocation ftw?

Takes longer than a standard action to use, you loose when I use a scroll of Gate for my gate.

DMG p. 199.

What about it? I don't have my books with me at the moment.

Unfortunately no-one around here (in particular the monk-haters) will take you seriously if you use 9th level spell item and morph cheese.

No one takes you seriously because you use UMD and polymorph and then claim that it is the monk, and not the spells that make you usable. It has nothing to do with 9th level spells or morph cheese in and of its self.

An, and I forgot: no LA +1 and more races. Your grey elf would be OK, then.

Why in the world would I want LA?

[Sir Giacomo]

Why not? He's using an item that he will have access to in one level and can activate with a 100% success rate, much more acceptable then a character dedicated to casting spells he will never ever be able to cast.
{Scrubbed}

Please stop making fun of my posting name. It's bad style.

And your orc fighter is even worse. A complete failure (he does NOT outdamage a level 15 monk - I need to check, but likely he does not even outdamage the joker monk).

Now I'll go jogging a bit and think about a level 16 build (although I guess that duel will never come about since Emperor Tippy has difficult to agree with some of the conditions).

- Giacomo

[Nebo_]

Unfortunately no-one around here (in particular the monk-haters) will take you seriously if you use 9th level spell item and morph cheese.

First, don't call us monk haters. Most of us actually like the monk, we just know that it's weaker than the other classes.

Second, yes, we will take him seriously because that's what wizards can do. How is this a test of the character's abilities if you exclude the character's abilities?

[Sir Giacomo]

I PaO into a choker for 2 standard actions. I bring 2 scrolls of disjunction with me. The odds of your polymoprh making it through are low, and if you manage it then my quickened greater dispel magic gets rid of it.

Oh Emperor Tippy, this bodes ill for your chances against me in PvP.
PoA will not get you any special qualities (of supernatural kind, at that!).

Takes longer than a standard action to use, you loose when I use a scroll of Gate for my gate.

Oh, the joker monk could similarly use such a nice scroll.

What about it? I don't have my books with me at the moment.

DMG p. 199 outlines the rules for one-shot adventures. And if that is not enough, it has been adapted for most PvP duel setups that I saw so far.

No one takes you seriously because you use UMD and polymorph and then claim that it is the monk, and not the spells that make you usable. It has nothing to do with 9th level spells or morph cheese in and of its self.

Whereas your wizard uses the same spell and shines because of it? What a strange double standard.

Why in the world would I want LA?

True. Thou shouldst not give up monk le...er caster levels!

- Giacomo

[Emperor Tippy]

Hell, let's use all your stupid rules. I will still win.

[Solo]

Whereas your wizard uses the same spell and shines because of it? What a strange double standard.

You know, this may come as a surprise to you, but Wizards are supposed to cast spells.

Monks? Not so much.

[Freelance Henchman]

Has *anyone* played a Monk like this? Even to a lesser extent? I mean using tons and tons of one-shot items, scrolls etc.? And what were your RP reasons for doing so, if any, other than "moar powar!".

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

And your orc fighter is even worse. A complete failure (he does NOT outdamage a level 15 monk - I need to check, but likely he does not even outdamage the joker monk).

Actually, he absolutely does, since he has a higher attack bonus and does more damage per hit then your supposed Monk suggestion (the one that did 39 damage per attack including Str bonus and GMF and Divine Power).

Please stop making fun of my posting name. It's bad style.

- Giacomo

{Scrubbed}

[Solo]

Has *anyone* played a Monk like this? Even to a lesser extent? I mean using tons and tons of one-shot items, scrolls etc.? And what were your RP reasons for doing so, if any, other than "moar powar!".

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

[Griffin131]

Has *anyone* played a Monk like this? Even to a lesser extent? I mean using tons and tons of one-shot items, scrolls etc.? And what were your RP reasons for doing so, if any, other than "moar powar!".

As I said earlier, I've tried it. My RP reasons were that we found some wands, and lacking an arcane caster (party was Fighter, Fighter, Monk, Cleric) I picked em up. I was already doing the Grappling thing and wanted to see how much it helped. I still felt behind the Fighters, however.

[Freelance Henchman]

As I said earlier, I've tried it. My RP reasons were that we found some wands, and lacking an arcane caster (party was Fighter, Fighter, Monk, Cleric) I picked em up. I was already doing the Grappling thing and wanted to see how much it helped. I still felt behind the Fighters, however.

This didn't include a Divine Power wand then?

[Nebo_]

{Scrubbed}

[Freelance Henchman]

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

You mean the guy who owns a chain of wandmaking shops?

[Griffin131]

This didn't include a Divine Power wand then?

And lo, eventually it did. For I felt pathetic, and begged my friend Cleric to hooketh me up with said wand.
And lo, he did. And yet, I still felt pathetic. So verily, when I finally succumbed to being swallowed whole, I re-rolled as a Sorcerer, and all was well.

Let it be known.

[Worira]

This is ridiculous, Giacomo. You're swapping between builds whenever you feel like it, giving yourself an 18 str, the ability to UMD, scout, etc., and you still end up worse than the second weakest class in the PHB. It really doesn't bode well for your build(s) that you have to outright cheat to match a crappy class.

[Freelance Henchman]

And lo, eventually it did. For I felt pathetic, and begged my friend Cleric to hooketh me up with said wand.
And lo, he did. And yet, I still felt pathetic. So verily, when I finally succumbed to being swallowed whole, I re-rolled as a Sorcerer, and all was well.

Let it be known.

You make it sound like a drug or something.

"See here, Master Lu, take a hit of THIS. Yeaahhh, don't that feel good? You want some of this? Tell you what, the first one's free, and I'll sell you one wand for bargain price, 'cause hey I love you monkish types. You need more, you come and see me, dig? Name's Eddie Fastlane, cleric of Mask... you ask for me, people know me *winks*"

[Griffin131]

You make it sound like a drug or something.

"See here, Master Lu, take a hit of THIS. Yeaahhh, don't that feel good? You want some of this? Tell you what, the first one's free, and I'll sell you one wand for bargain price, 'cause hey I love you monkish types. You need more, you come and see me, dig? Name's Eddie Fastlane, cleric of Mask... you ask for me, people know me *winks*"

Use drugs enough, and eventually you'll be convinced that relying on them is a good thing, and you won't be able to get by without them.

Use UMD for builds enough, and eventually you'll be convinced that relying on it is a godo thing, and you won't be able to get by without it.

[Solo]

The only caveat i have about my cleric is that I may not be around to play him, as I will be interning 8 hours a day. Out of necessity, I shall have to appoint a second.

Any takers?

[Sir Giacomo]

Well, Chosen_of_Vecna, do you really wish to be humiliated?

OK...

Level 15 Core Fighter:

Orc Fighter 15 32 PB:

Stats: (PB-Racial-levels-items)
Str 18-22-24-30

Mistake No. 1: you choose orc instead of half-orc, which is no good basis for the comparison. This is something the monk could also do. With divine power, the now-turned-orc-monk has exactly the same STR as you do.

Dex 15-15-16-22
Con 14-14-20

Mistake 1b: where did you get the points to buy that kind of Con? By jumping up with your point buy? Do you really believe in this kind of comparison standards?

Int 8-6-6-6
Wis 10-10-10-10
Cha 8-6-6-6

Feats: Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Two Weapon Fighting, ITWF, GTWF, Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Weapon Specialization (Greatsword), GWF (GS), GWS (GS), Weapon Focus (Armor Spikes), Weapon Specialization (Armor Spikes), GWF (AS), GWS (AS)

Items: +6 Str, +6 Con, +6 Dex, x4 1st level Pearl of Power, x3 Pearl of Power 3rd level, Mithril Chain Shirt with Armor Spikes +1 Shocking, +1 Icy Greatsword, Boots of Speedy Wings, Cloak of Resistance +5.

So the Fighter has enough Pearls of Power to seriously get a +3 Chain Shirt every day, and both his weapons to +3 with Greater Magic Weapon, and an Enlarge effect for each standard encounter.

Of course after that, because of the way Pearls of Power work, the casters will still have a Greater Magic Weapon, a Magic Vestment, and an Enlarge left. So his Half Orc Monk cohort "companion" can freeload a bit.

Mistake No. 2: you spent way more on equipment then the half-orc monk I posted- quite unfair. Plus you rely on a custom item (boots of speed AND wings). But don't worry, even so you fail.

In the mean time, on his first round of combat, the Fighter can charge for +33 and do 3d6+28+1d6Cold damage for an average damage of 42.

Now, these numbers look very wrong. Why? Let us see...
The +28 bonus damage - where does it come from?
+10 STR. +5 (1.5 STR due to two-handed), +3 enhance, for a total of +18
With the 4d6, that's just 32. You're still behind by 8 the (now-orc-with-bigger-STR-bonus) monk of +40.

Or power attacking for his likely +2 to hit over the Divine Powered Half Orc Monk, 46 damage. Or power attacking for his advantage over the non-Divine Powered Monk +9, for 60 damage.

The funny thing is that you'll likely get tripped by the monk in that charge (he has improved trip as bonus feat with 20ft reach, you not!)
But still, yes, in a charge he might get in that slightly higher damage for just ONE attack. Let's now see the full round.

Following that he can full attack at +29/+29/+25/+25/+20/+20 for alternatively 42 and 24 damage.

And that is how exactly better than the monk's SIX attacks at higher attack bonus with 40 dmg on average with ALL his attacks? You also forgot to add one attack for your boots of speed, though,
And I have top admit that going the armour spike route to retain the TH sword advantage is not that bad. Note, though, that power attacking in full attack is no longer really an option, since you only get that bonus to the THS, and not to the armour spike which counts as a light weapon.
Mistake No. 3: You forgot to deduct -2 from all attacks from two-weapon fighting. A penalty the monk does not suffer. And somehow your to hit calculations are faulty.
It should read: +27/+27/+27/+22/+22/+17/+17
Meanwhile, the monk with STR 30, divine power up, and his enhance +3 and boots of speed, has attack bonus of +29/+29/+29/+24/+19/+14. And with just one feat (two weapon fighting) he gets exactly the same no. of attacks, at exactly the same bonus.

Note the ways he exceeds a "high Str, high damage half orc Monk":
1) More damage in a single attack
Disproven.
2) More damage in a full attack
Disproven.
3) More attacks in a full attack
Disproven
4) Higher AC
Well, with the equipment available, a DEX +6 and WIS +6 item, the monk can easily with his monk AC bonus equalise that.
5) Higher Touch AC
You are joking, right? Look up again the monk AC bonus.
6) Absolutely no buff time required, since apparently it only takes 1 round of buffing to cast Divine Power and Enlarge, so Enlarge must have a casting time of one free action or be always active.
Yep, let's take the always active one (permanency anyone for just 3,100?)
7) Dare I say it? More then Double the HP? Wholly crazy town Batman!
Wow. Considering your orc fighter does not even reach the orc monk who trips him to his heart's delight...and your starting CON should be 8, not 14 with 28-pt-buy.
8) Can fly and haste himself. Because he's awesome like that.Yep, with a customised item. Great.

So yeah, Fighters do more damage then Monks. They really really do. Also, your Monk "grapple" build would die in five seconds. It's cute.

In less than a round? You mean the round your orc fighter spends on the ground after having been tripped and realising that damage-dealing is not the fighter's niche, but battlefield control is (or ranged attacks)?

So let us sum up: even with higher point buy, more and customised equipment used, and using a very suboptimal feat route, you fail completely to show where the fighter outdamages the monk.

Waiting for the usual denial to set in...

-Giamoco

[Solo]

Waiting for the usual denial to set in...

It goes on quite often around here, doesn't it?

[Sir Giacomo]

This is ridiculous, Giacomo. You're swapping between builds whenever you feel like it, giving yourself an 18 str, the ability to UMD, scout, etc., and you still end up worse than the second weakest class in the PHB. It really doesn't bode well for your build(s) that you have to outright cheat to match a crappy class.

Quite the contrary, mon cher ami Worira.
It is the other posters who change the scenarios on a whim (latest example Chosen_of_Vecna).
Once more:
If you wish to do a comparison of specialised aspects of a class (damage-dealing), then it only makes sense to compare the specialised builds of that class.
Why should my joker monk intened to take on batman be able to outgrapple a cleric of Kord or out-damage a fighter completely built for most damage in a round? Makes no sense to me, in particular not when we are talking what a CLASS in general can or cannot do.

- Giacomo

[Solo]

Why should my joker monk intened to take on batman be able to outgrapple a cleric of Kord or out-damage a fighter completely built for most damage in a round?

The only reason we're listing high damage fighters is because you claimed that 6d8 base damage was something no fighter could get easily.

[Sir Giacomo]

Has *anyone* played a Monk like this? Even to a lesser extent? I mean using tons and tons of one-shot items, scrolls etc.? And what were your RP reasons for doing so, if any, other than "moar powar!".

This is the road of defeat and actually explains a lot why so many have problesm with taking on wizards at higher levels.

Yes, MAGIC is very powerful at high-level games. Why then just let CASTERS use the magic, and the others go: "duh. We lose".

Makes no sense to me.

The rules can be used to create a certain fluff atmosphere (heck, you can simulate the Lord of the Rings campaign with DD 3.5, with some housrules here and there), but if you really use the core rules RAW, then you'll get a certain kind of campaign where, yes, people buy and sell magic items, where a whole civilisation is built around the possbility that a wizard can teleport into the king's hall, time stop, and kill him with 1000 methods.

So please do not ask me to build a monk able to take on batman or keep up with other classes and then go "but nobody would play that way".

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

The only reason we're listing high damage fighters is because you claimed that 6d8 base damage was something no fighter could get easily.

Not quite. I said that the source of damage of a fighter is not the base dice, but rather his Power Attack. This broadly keeps the rogue/monk/fighter rougly the same in damage output. And this is what I showed.

- Giacomo

[Freelance Henchman]

This is the road of defeat and actually explains a lot why so many have problesm with taking on wizards at higher levels.

Yes, MAGIC is very powerful at high-level games. Why then just let CASTERS use the magic, and the others go: "duh. We lose".

Makes no sense to me.

So you're admitting the Monk (along with the rest of the non-casters) is trash, and the best he can do is ignore his class abilities and do whatever he can to pretend to be a caster?