Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

[Talic]

That isn't the point.

The rules of the game have specifically built in how to cast scrolls off a spell that are higher CL than yours. Thus, D&D rules allow it.

If the rules are balanced (which I do believe Giacomo has supported, in core), then allowing it must be balanced.

The only arguable reasoning for denying this item type would be if it provides an ability that would unduly balance the game.

While banning widely accepted overpowered items, such as Candles of Invocation is subjective, it is at least backed by popular opinion, as well as opinion of all here. It would extend a class's powers to the extent that actual class abilities are irrelevant. This means that the challenge cannot do what it set out to do.

However, when the rules specifically allow casters to activate scrolls beyond their caster level far easier than non-casters, this points to synergy with existing class features, rather than overpowering them.

Heck, a level 7 wizard has a 50% chance to activate a level 9 scroll. (1d20+7 vs DC 18, 11 or higher succeeds). This points to the game deliberately making it easier for wizards to cast wizard spells. Sounds reasonable.

To ban it, we must have grounds for the banning, grounds that show that the banning is for a legitimate reason that would distort or otherwise invalidate the exercise. Otherwise, it's an arbitrary banning, and should not be allowed.

I'll give Giacomo opportunity to provide such reasoning, at this point, to defend his position.

Bear in mind, that one of Giacomo's stronger arguments for the monk is strong saves, allowing for the resistance of devastating spells and abilities. I personally think that including the ability to use these scrolls works very well to test that. After all, Disjunction allows a saving throw, as does almost every other 9th level spell. In fact, I do believe every offensive 9th level spell requires either a touch attack or a saving throw, and, as Giacomo has intimated that these are two areas that monks excel in, there should be no problem at all including them.

[Oslecamo]

Ah, it doesn't really matter. If its allowed them my Disjunction Scroll's will take care of most of the fight. It its not then I already PMed you what I planned on doing.

Wait a moment. If you're using scrolls, it means the save DC gets watered down to the minimum, aka DC 19(10+spell level), wich the monk should be able to do fairly easily, right?

[Nebo_]

Wait a moment. If you're using scrolls, it means the save DC gets watered down to the minimum, aka DC 19(10+spell level), wich the monk should be able to do fairly easily, right?

The minimum also includes the minimum stat, bringing the total to DC 23, but yes, at level 20 that's very easy to make.

[Talic]

Wait a moment. If you're using scrolls, it means the save DC gets watered down to the minimum, aka DC 19(10+spell level), wich the monk should be able to do fairly easily, right?

Yes, though your minimum is off.

DC 10 + spell level + minimum stat bonus required to cast spell.

In this instance, you must have a casting stat of 19 to cast a 9th level spell, so the DC would be 10 + 9 (spell level) + 4 (for the 19 required to cast) = DC 23.

[Armads]

Just a few more days of this rate of posting, and this thread will have surpassed the Simple Q&A in terms of pages...It has already surpassed the character builder thread.

And nothing's happened since the start.

[Laurellien]

Yup, nothing has happened

1/6 posts = Sir Giacomo stitching logical fallacies together to call them an argument
1/6 posts = Sir Giacomo taking issue with the RAW that others are using or misrepresenting another's views, or failing to address central issues posed to him
3/6 = People consistently proving Sir Giacomo wrong using RAW, pointing out why his theory tactics don't work in game, using his own logic from other threads against him (useful contribution vs. PVP), and making characters of other classes that can gonk better than the gonk
1/6 = Other people arguing over minor points that have no real relevance to the topic.

I must say though, when I first heard people talking about the "gonk", I thought that Sir Giacomo had made a mobile droid that acted as a battery.

[Talic]

Please, let him respond to the request for reasoning/support against scrolls of spell level 9.

[lord_khaine]

Pity it's not core.

actualy, Wizards themself considder the EPH core, and as allready mentioned its in the SRD.

that aside, is this a new page record for monk discussions? i would have though people would be to busy with 4th edition to keep discussing this.

[Solo]

actualy, Wizards themself considder the EPH core, and as allready mentioned its in the SRD.

Maybe you can convince Giacomo of that.

[Talic]

actualy, Wizards themself considder the EPH core, and as allready mentioned its in the SRD.

that aside, is this a new page record for monk discussions? i would have though people would be to busy with 4th edition to keep discussing this.

Wrong. The SRD was not designed to show a listing of core items. It was designed to define "Open Game Content", or content that people could use, modify, or derive information from, without fear of legal recourse. The fact that they've included it in SRD only shows that it's covered by the OGL, not that it's core.

If you'd care to assert that Wizards considers a book that's not labelled "Core Rulebook" as core, perhaps you'd also care to cite your source?

[Emperor Tippy]

Wait a moment. If you're using scrolls, it means the save DC gets watered down to the minimum, aka DC 19(10+spell level), wich the monk should be able to do fairly easily, right?

His will save is +14. Against a DC of 23. That means he needs to roll a 9 or better, that is a 40% chance of failure. With 2 scrolls he has a 36% chance of any given item making both saves. With 5 scrolls he has under an 8% chance of any given item making the save.

[Talic]

His will save is +14. Against a DC of 23. That means he needs to roll a 9 or better, that is a 40% chance of failure. With 2 scrolls he has a 36% chance of any given item making both saves. With 5 scrolls he has under an 8% chance of any given item making the save.

This is true, but what if he acquires a resistance effect, for +1, and then a few other spell bonuses to saves?

That's an awful lot of castings from within 65 feet.

[Emperor Tippy]

This is true, but what if he acquires a resistance effect, for +1, and then a few other spell bonuses to saves?

That's an awful lot of castings from within 65 feet.

I will be able to avoid him. I PMed you, just replace what I was going to attack with with the scrolls.

Hell, a quickened True Strike plus a Temporal Stasis stands a good chance of succeeding.

Grasping Hand can out grapple him as well, if it hits I will auto win ever grapple check (+45 to my check).

Power Word Stun will auto stun him for 2d4 rounds (I can penetrate his SR on a 1).

Finger of Death is the same, auto penetrate his SR and if he fails his save (50% chance) he dies, if he succeeds then he takes 24-39 damage. So 4 castings of Finger of Death is a guaranteed win even if he makes every save. And after 2 I can hit him with a Power Word Blind to make him permanently Blind.

[tyckspoon]

This is true, but what if he acquires a resistance effect, for +1, and then a few other spell bonuses to saves?

That's an awful lot of castings from within 65 feet.

First casting gets rid of anything that isn't a permanent magic item with a 100% success rate. Takes care of any UMD'd improvements, at a minimum.

[Talic]

True. Now freedom of movement does beat grasping hand's grapple, but it can still bull rush, with a very good success chance. Power Word is probably, IMO, Gia's biggest weakness.

[Emperor Tippy]

True. Now freedom of movement does beat grasping hand's grapple, but it can still bull rush, with a very good success chance. Power Word is probably, IMO, Gia's biggest weakness.

He doesn't have a Ring of Freedom of Movement. Which means he has to UMD it. And you can't activate a scroll while in a grapple. Which means a Wand of FoM, which is a hefty chunk of change.

[Talic]

He doesn't have a Ring of Freedom of Movement. Which means he has to UMD it. And you can't activate a scroll while in a grapple. Which means a Wand of FoM, which is a hefty chunk of change.

True that. I've always felt dirty when using Disjunction. Or wasteful, at the least.

[Emperor Tippy]

True that. I've always felt dirty when using Disjunction. Or wasteful, at the least.

Unless it is life or death I generally feel the same, but for PvP... And as I have said, I don't really need it.

[Talic]

Unless it is life or death I generally feel the same, but for PvP... And as I have said, I don't really need it.

Yeah, even in PvP, I generally try to make sure that in winning the fight, I come out stronger than when I entered. It's good business practice. I save disjunctions for incredibly dire situations.

[Behold_the_Void]

Bear in mind, that one of Giacomo's stronger arguments for the monk is strong saves, allowing for the resistance of devastating spells and abilities. I personally think that including the ability to use these scrolls works very well to test that. After all, Disjunction allows a saving throw, as does almost every other 9th level spell. In fact, I do believe every offensive 9th level spell requires either a touch attack or a saving throw, and, as Giacomo has intimated that these are two areas that monks excel in, there should be no problem at all including them.

His low HP makes things like the Power Word spells a major problem.

[Talic]

Others have voiced the same concern. Let's see how he deals with that, as most power word spells are below 9th level.

[Solo]

His low HP makes things like the Power Word spells a major problem.

Nonsense. The monk will have plenty of HP due to his high constitution score.
Meanwhile, the monk's high Dexterity and wisdom scores will give him ahigh touch AC, as well as good reflex and will saves (on top of good progression)

Plus, the Monk has Spell Resistance!

So, you see, not only will the monk be able to make all his saves, but also remain unaffected from SR spells due to his SR.

[Emperor Tippy]

So, you see, not only will the monk be able to make all his saves, but also remain unaffected from SR spells due to his SR.

You mean the Spell Resistance that I always penetrate? SR 26 is crap. I don't have any feats I need so I will have Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration for the schools I plan on using, thats +4. And my CL will be 21 (Ioun Stone + Bead of Karma (activated in buff round)) which means that I get a 26 to penetrate on a natural 1.

My problem isn't beating him, it deciding how to beat him. I can do it with magic missile, finger of death, power word stun + a dagger, fireball, temporal stasis, forcecage (his rod will be dealt with), disintegrate+wall of stone, and at least 5 other ways.

[Behold_the_Void]

Nonsense. The monk will have plenty of HP due to his high constitution score.
Meanwhile, the monk's high Dexterity and wisdom scores will give him ahigh touch AC, as well as good reflex and will saves (on top of good progression)

Plus, the Monk has Spell Resistance!

So, you see, not only will the monk be able to make all his saves, but also remain unaffected from SR spells due to his SR.

Yay theoretical 50 point buy!

[turkishproverb]

Nonsense. The monk will have plenty of HP due to his high constitution score.
Meanwhile, the monk's high Dexterity and wisdom scores will give him ahigh touch AC, as well as good reflex and will saves (on top of good progression)

Plus, the Monk has Spell Resistance!

So, you see, not only will the monk be able to make all his saves, but also remain unaffected from SR spells due to his SR.

Man, I hate to say it, but I think your forgetting, that each of those stats is what the character might have to handle a specific situation, not all at once.

At least, thats how I've been reading Giacomo's posts AFTER his batman killer.

[Talic]

Man, I hate to say it, but I think your forgetting, that each of those stats is what the character might have to handle a specific situation, not all at once.

At least, thats how I've been reading Giacomo's posts AFTER his batman killer.

LOL, that's the point. Sarcasm FTW.

[lord_khaine]

Maybe you can convince Giacomo of that.

well wizard have actualy written that its a core book, its just a shame that its not relevant, because even if its core i doubt it will make more Gm's allow the use of it.

edit.
so i dont think convincing Sir G of it will change anything

[Talic]

well wizard have actualy written that its a core book, its just a shame that its not relevant, because even if its core i doubt it will make more Gm's allow the use of it.

edit.
so i dont think convincing Sir G of it will change anything

Again, it's easy to say something like this.

For instance, I declare that wizards has stated that starting gold for level 1 monks is 360,000 gp.

The statement is only as reliable as the source. If your source is from wizards, show us. Cite the source. A web link will suffice. After all, there are numerous links at the wizards site that refer to the three core books (phb, mm, and dmg). Surely if they've released a 4th core book, surely that would have a verifiable source.

All I'm asking is that you link it, or don't hold it against us if we consider this statement utter hogwash.

EDIT: I also looked myself, producing the following 2 links:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...dacc/966660000

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20040409a

Neither refer to the EPH as a core book, and one refers to it specifically as a supplement. If you'd care to assert that wizards believes this book to be core, PLEASE show us something from wizards that states that. After all, SRD != Core. SRD = material covered by the OGL.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hi again,

well, about that level 16 duel.

1) Basically, I agree with you on that scroll use of 9th level thing- it should be an option for pc casters. However, the problem is that the rules for a mishap are not quite clear - it's DM fiat what kind of mishap occurs. Easily handable and highly entertaining possibly in a normal game, but in a PvP? So what happens when Emperor Tippy rolls a "1"?
2) The sphere setting - sounds OK to me. What substance is the floor made of? Cut stone? Natural stone?
3) How far is the initial distance of the two combatants?
4) What can be done in the buff round? Probably it'll not be allowed to a) leave the starting/buffing square(s) and b) to affect the opponent (basically meaning nothing can be done that affects anything outside that square)
5) Normally, leaving the plane of the sphere should constitute losing. But does that encompass the etheral plane as well? Say, with a blink effect active?
6) Will possibly adjust the 16th level monk a bit; in part to make his strategies not so transparent, and also because of some minor mistakes that I detected (- it's certain that after the duel, there could be some major redo with the insights learned!)

As for Chosen_of_Vecna's post, it's imo a very complicated way of saying: "Yes, Giacomo, you were right - the monk can if specialised in it do similar damage to the fighter in core, even a fighter specialised to deal damage. But the fighter is a weak class to start with, so it proves nothing."
But, Chosen_of_Vecna, it does prove something. It proves that the monk is great at damage dealing in core. Which was the facet of what the monk class can do that was being discussed.

For those interested here more detailed reply to his comment:

Spoiler

Show

Yes he does, he also gets less damage from it. and actually loses something from the Cha/Int penalty, unlike the Fighter.

Whereas the fighter loses nothing from barring the way to good feats that need INT 13? Note that the monk gets they key improved trip feat for STR-based melee characters as a bonus feat.
But true, your fighter skill ranks cannnot drop below 1/level. Now that's great synergy...
Although I have to admit that TH-Weapons and Power Attack make choosing the higher STR-race a factor (it does not help to get a higher damage output total than the monk, though)

I believe that I am comparing a 32 PB Monk to a 32 PB Fighter, I have to do things like that because you never actually presented a build other then "max str"

Well, the half-orc monk specialised in melee hat 28pt-buy. There was no reason 32-pt buy was all of a sudden the new standard.

The Half Orc Monk with?? A Monk Belt? Did you mention anything else? I spent WBL, deal with it. I'm also comparing him to a WBL Monk.

OK. It made no difference, anyhow.

Well let's see, from the 22-24-30-34, that's racial, levels, items, enlarge effect. so that's a Str of +12, which means damage is +18 damage, followed by +4 from GWS, followed by +3 from item, so that's 39 damage. But you are right, I did mistakenly add the Str as +14. Of course he still power attacks for his +2 advantage, giving him a 3 point advantage in damage on his attack.

I dunno. Whatever your orc fighter has in terms of STR, the monk has as well, equating your advantage, since half your attacks make no use of power attack and TH STR bonus.

Oh that's cute. Yes if he was stupid enough to charge another melee focused character, he might get tripped by your ever so slight higher check, when Divine Powered. Of course if he charges before you have Divine Power up, then he has a +3-4 advantage over you, so you just drop your spiked chain.

A +4 is not "slight". And even when charging without divine power being up, the orc fighter would likely get tripped, since the enhancement bonus is just +3 check difference (vs the +4 the feat provides). Plus, the reach means, the trip can be tried several times until your TH sword reaches the monk.

But of course, we aren't talking about PvP, if we where he'd just use readied actions.

Readied actions do not help you vs more reach. However, you could also use a spiked chain (lowering your damage output, though).

As is, we are talking about:

A Marut
A Werewolf Lord riding a Colossal Monstrous Scorpion.
A Gelugon and his Iron Golem guard
A War Party of Fire Giants

Honestly, the Core Fighter isn't really in the same league as any of these guys, but neither is your Orc Monk, and neither is your Joker Monk. Which is precisely the problem. You are competing to be almost as good as the class that totally can't compete at all.

Orc Monk, Joker Monk and fighter (all in core) can of course take on these challenges; in particular with a party. For instance, the marut with a dimensional anchor/lock and a grapple or any full attack next to it.
I do not see where the problem is.

1) No I didn't forget the boots extra attack, because it doesn't apply every round, and he will rarely have a chance where that one extra attack is really that important.

OK. Does not matter, anyhow. Monk with one two-weapon fighting feat and a two-weapon fighter have the same number of melee attacks. Monk with 4 at highest BAB, fighter with 2 at highest.

2) Power attacking is still an option, and is used quite commonly against low AC enemies. This character, aside from gear cost and PB cost (which doesn't matter since he still maxed Str) is literally getting his full round or Armor Spike Attacks in exchange for a mere -2 to hit on his primary. So he feels perfectly fine just power attacking away whenever a normal fighter would do so.

But the power attack does not apply to half the fighter's attacks (the off-hand attacks with the spike).

3) He compares with said monk by getting more full attacks because he doesn't waste a round buffing. Not to mention that you don't get six attacks, nor do you do 40 damage on each one.

Hmmm. Even the orc monk will be likely ahead in the "who notices who first" game, so a buff in the surprise round is not that unlikely. That, plus the monk's MUCH higher move (the fighter will not even hear the monk buffing from 110ft away)
And the 6 attacks/round with 40 damage each have been shown. There's no sense denying that.

No, you forgot to add my attack bonus correctly, I did take the -2 penalty, you just missed a +2 somewhere. And you don't get the +2 from boots of speed, or the extra attack, because really, you don't use them all the time. But if the did, it would be in fact your Monks:
+29/+29/+29/+29/+24/+19 against the fighter's
+31/+31/+31/+26/+26/+21/+21

Or he can go TWF for:
+27/+27/+27/+27/+27/+22/+17 vs
+31/+31/+31/+26/+26/+21/+21

Now the above numbers might have missed something, but the didn't miss anything when I put the info into a damage calculator, compared to the ACs mentioned in monsters above: (34/26 or 19/ 20/32/30/and 23) the average damage per full attack (using haste and an extra TWF attack from the Monk) works out in favor of the fighter every time, predictably becoming more so as AC drops. 185 to 173.5/265.5 or 342 to 234.5 or 245.5 (The Monks maximum real damage, all hits and average damage on each hit easily surpassed on low ACs with Power attack)/331 to 245.5/204 to 199.5/223.5 to 216.5/298.5 to 241.

But how can you calculate that the fighter is in favour - you NEED to deduct from your attack to use power attack; AND your off-hand attack only gets half STR bonus damage and NO power attack damage. At best, the fighter might equate the monk in that situation; and be possibly ahead vs the unbuffed maxed orc monk.

So yes, my build does out damage a damage focused Monk. One thing this info does not take into account is immunity to crits. With the Greatsword's significantly wider crit range (17-20 since I took Improved Crit) this means that the Monk might pull ahead on high AC enemies (though not those that require a 18 or higher to hit) and who are immune to crits. Maybe not though because those are precisely the enemies that the Fighter won't confirm against.

I don't know if that point really matters.

1) True, you even admitted it above.
?
2) True as full calculations have proven.
Nope.
3) Okay, you can manage as many attacks, or theoretically more of them, but each one represents a much greater investment, that you can not really make.
Why not? Cost of just one feat.
4) No, because he can't afford those things, you are so cute though.
I actually started to like you long ago... And yes, he can afford ALL those things.
5) You are joking right? Dex 10 Wis 14 Monks don't have a higher touch AC then a 22 Dex Fighter. But this might change, we'll see when I present your monk build.
My monk build? You mean yours? Dunno.
Anyhow, the monk AC bonus (note the monk's belt) will mean the touch AC is the same as the as 22. And of course once you use full wbl, there is nothing to stop the monk from having +6 item in DEX as well.
6) Please do. I went with one that will provide me with Enlarge four times a day every day from level 6 with no additional costs. But you can feel free to throw money down a drain by paying 3000gp per enlarge that lasts only a few days if that.
? Permanency only lasting a few days? And note if you use som sort of enlarge item, you'll also need to buff for a standard action. There goes that "but you buff with divine power" advantage.
7) Too bad your HP still matters when you face the Colossal Centipede and his rider. And the Fire Giants that can kill you in one round, and the Marut, and well, all you enemies. But yes, since I can easily reach the Monk by simply charging him before he casts Divine Power, or withstanding the trip as I do more then 50% of the time, or by readying an action on his approach, or by using my cross class tumble ranks.
Whereas your fighter build was a shining HP monster? Just get that CON enhancer for him as well. And ture, without a party for backup, the SPECIALISED orc monk just like your SPECIALISED orc fighter will have problems. The joker monk? Not so much.
8) Oh, a "Customized item" that follows the rules set out for combing slots that are not found in the "custom item guidelines" but instead in the main text? Why is Emerald Streaks casting of a single spell at CL 20 once a day at level 10 excellent play but following the rules of combining items (by increasing the cost) evil munchkinnery Mr Partially Charged Wands?
Soo...someone else in a non-core thread somewhere else used some kind of item and this makes you think it's OK to use now in a core only comparison (again: look up DMG p. 199 for partially charged wands)? Oh well...

So let me sum up: Even when comparing myself to a 32 PB Monk aimed for damage, using full WBL, my Fighter using crappy Core feats managed to out damage a monk with Divine Power up, which of course he had to spend a round buffing up, even though I could have killed him or any level appropriate enemy with a full attack routine in one round.

You cannot compare yourself to a 32PB monk, since none was posted. But anyhow, you're completely wrong imo.

Suggestion: we stop to discuss this (feel free to crunch numbers again, though). Apparently we cannot convince each other.

Let me sum up my basic point on whether the monk at high levels can keep up in terms of damage output:
1. The monk ultimately gets 6d8 base damage and 6 attacks by level 16 (barring two-weapon fighting). Or, 27x6=162 BASE damage per round.
2. The rogue by level 16 gets 1d6 BASE damage per round (note it is likely a light, non-enlarged weapon); in case every hit is a sneak, then this will be, complete with two-weapon-fighting tree and divine power, a total of 9d6x7=220.5 damage.
3. The fighter ultimately gets 3d6 base damage and 4 attacks by level 16. Or, 10.5x4=42 BASE damage per round.
Now the big question is:
- is this CLEAR monk advantage by 120 (!!) for damage output vs the fighter equated by or even overcompensated by the fighter's
1) higher BAB (note that the divine power effect completely cancels this, AND that the monk has TWO more BAB attacks at HIGHEST level)
2) TH-weapons (STRx1.5, double Power attack feat damage)
3) Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialisation feat tree (4 feats, with Power Attack this only nets +8 damage per hit, or +32 per round)
4) Improved Critical possibility (1 feat)

All attacks can be enhanced in a similar way with enhancement bonuses; although THweapons can be enhanced also with additional elemental damage. STR scores will be the same for fighter and monk; but will be far behind for the rogue (again, I am only talking about the damage-specialised builds here!). The rogue will also have the added disadvantages
- of having to enchant two weapons instead of just one, and have -2 to hit in the TWF tree (and only two at max BAB).
- no critical multiplier to speak of and
- many opponents having methods to negate sneaking with concealment or immunity to critical.
And advantage for the rogue is that specialisation on DEX and sneaks is not really impeding his general versatility.

I'll leave it at that summary.

- Giacomo

[Eldritch_Ent]

Hi again,

well, about that level 16 duel.

1a) Scroll use is DM Fiat.
1b. The monk does 162 BASE damage per round.
2. The rogue by level 16 gets 220.5 damage.
3. The fighter gets 42 BASE damage per round.

- Giacomo

1a- Not Fiat, because all that happens if he rolls a 1 is he can't try to use that magic device again for 24 hours.
1b- Incorrect. That's assuming the monk gets a flurry, and HITS with each blow- which is unlikely, since Flurry is a full-attack action, (Gotta stand toe to toe with whoever you're hitting) and is at 2/3rds BAB (15 at highest level? Yikes.) - Use Magic Device isn't reliable, and is a poor cover-up since it's not even a Monk ability, but a cleric ability.
3- Incorrect. A good THF fighter will not only have majorly pumped his strength (If he rolls an 18, he's putting it there- and if it's point buy, he's putting it there anyway) through magic items and leveling bonuses, as well as invested heavily in pertinent combat feets like Improved Initiate, Combat Reflexes, etc. He's going to be doing wayyy more damage than just 42, especially on a charge. And that's for a very basic optimized fighter- not counting stronger builds like the spiked Chain Tripmonkey or the Ubercharger.



Honestly, if Sir Giacamo is finally willing to put his money where his mouth is, I'm pretty sure I could beat him with a basic wizard too. Excuse me while I prepare my spell list.