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2008-06-13, 04:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks
When the carnage are going to start?
It's not like you will take more than 10~12 rounds even if both sides fumble every roll...Last edited by Arakune; 2008-06-13 at 08:44 PM.
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2008-06-14, 04:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2008-06-14, 05:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks
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2008-06-14, 05:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- The Land Where 99 Men Weep and One Man Laughs
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2008-06-14, 06:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks
The objection is not that your monk uses wands (everyone does use some consumable items for when they're in a pinch), but that your monk relies on relatively expensive consumable items for every fight, or nearly enough.
There's nothing odd about Cindy carrying around a scroll of a high-level spell to use in a serious emergency (which a one-on-one fight with another PC of equal level would normally qualify as, since it's much harder than an appropriate CR-based challenge -- four-on-one would be a typical CR challenge. Appropriate CR challenges, remember, are made to be easily beaten.)
The objection to your build is not that it uses wands, but that it burns charges and other consumable items on things that should be easy, day-to-day encounters for 'normal' characters (consuming nothing more than 'renewable resources'), when those are normally saved for emergencies.
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2008-06-14, 10:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks
There's also the fact the Giamonk, being too MAD to invest heavily in INT and CHA, as well as having UMD as a cross-class feature, only makes UMD checks half the time at best. (If he wishes to have passably physical stats, at least!)
Whereas a Cleric or Wizard, having caster levels, spell lists, and the appropriate main stat, will be able to use it without a check... And classes that are meant to be item-monkies, such as Rogues and Bards, simply have UMD as a class skill AND, in the case of bards, have CHA as their main stat.
So really, not only is he trying to pretend to be another class (instead of playing to the monk's strengths like he should be), he's also doing it poorly.
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2008-06-14, 12:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks
Hi again,
just to announce: the guide has been completely updated, reflecting also in part the discussion, with more links (external and internal throughout this thread). Most importantly, an FAQ has been added in the beginning.
@greenknight - the reply by custserv appears a bit odd. But truth to tell, I have in my memory that somewhere else there is a ruling that the mage discjunction dispels automatically. By the RAW, it certainly does not. Will check the FAQ.
And concerning Cindy - she can carry as many level 1-9 scrolls as she likes. I only made an observation here.
Looking forward to those duels! And the level 16 should take place first. Talic, could you do a summary of the rules we agreed on? Plus, are my latest additions OK? Plus, would both you and Emperor Tippy also allow npc hour/lvl buffs cast before combat?
- GiacomoLast edited by Sir Giacomo; 2008-06-14 at 12:13 PM.
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2008-06-14, 12:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks
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2008-06-14, 12:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks
As usual, I motion to remove Masterwork Tools from the guide that may not be allowed by the standard DM. This includes:
A. Tools which may not be quickly used, therefore denying the precious +2 Circumstance Bonus needed at that precise moment. Please, let us all take a reprieve from the battle whilst you peruse your Masterwork Tool of Know:Arcana. We'll wait.
B. Tools which require far reaches in to the imagination to create a quasi-feasible way to provide a bonus to given skill. This includes: Use Magic Device. From the thread, I've picked up on possible ideas as: 'Magnifying Glass', 'Pouch of Random Spell Components', and 'Wires that more closely connect one to magic'? First idea should be referred to 'A' argument. The pouch is tricky, because each DM can easily envision 'components' used in different manners. 'Luck of the sprinkle' may not be a standard option, and therefore, should be pulled from the guide. As to the wires....I don't know what to say about that one.
I know that it takes heavy debating with a DM to allow some of the Masterwork Tools you've so casually tossed in to the guide, Giacomo. Not all DMs are that nice. Some consider Masterwork Tool, with its 50 gp cost and 1 lb weight, to be a guideline. After all, splatbooks have provided other kinds of 'kits' that boost checks, such as the Animal Training Kit of Complete Adventurer. Also, there are ALREADY kits that provide the same bonus as Masterwork tool in the PHB, and come with different costs and weights.
I'm not sure if others see this issue in the same light, but I would like this addressed, seeing as you've just refreshed your guide."So Marbles, why do they call you Marbles?"
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2008-06-14, 12:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks
By the RAW it certainly does. It ends effects just like a dispel magic ends effects. A dispel check that succeeds ends effects by treating them as if their duration had expired. A dispel check that does not succeed does not end effects, so a Disjunction cannot end effects just like a failed check, because that doesn't end effects. It can only end effects like a successful check, and so it does, it ends all effects as if it had succeeded on the dispel check, because that is the only way that dispel ends effects.
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2008-06-14, 02:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks
Hmmm...I think Chosen_of_Vecna is correct here. Yes, the wording "ending the effect as a dispel magic spell does" probably means just that, otherwise it would have said "dispelling the effect as a dispel magic spell does".
Yep, makes sense.
- Giacomo
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2008-06-14, 02:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-06-14, 02:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks
Oh, I don't know about you...but I prefer my duels starting with
1) knowing who'll DM it
2) where and
3) with what exact rules
But tell you what: in case it takes Talic a bit longer to set up the level 16 challenge, we can start with the level 10 one first. Has Solo agreed to DM it? We could also ask Saph or Lord_Silvanos. It's really up to who has the time and interest to do that (I think Saph further up in this thread said that duels do not really prove much, which may be true...which is why I hope also Illiterate Scribe's Sinister Spire adventure would proceed faster).
Yes, they should - except the permanent ones.
- Giacomo
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2008-06-15, 01:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks
1) DM - Decided, correct.
2) Arena - I can see debating the subtext of the arena.
3) Rules - Core RAW. - Now, you use RAW where it suits you to get MW tools of any skill, and yet bar some blatant RAW such as 9th level scrolls of any type or spell. The rules of my contest will be simple. RAW. If there are to be any deviations, there must be a detailed, well-explained reason as to WHY the banning of that particular aspect of RAW should be disallowed. Nothing concerning common sense or intuitive/counterintuitive will be accepted. The only valid reason for barring an item, rule, skill, or ability, that I can see, is that that item distorts the competition to the point of making it difficult or impossible to garner any meaningful information from the challenge.
Things that I believe will: items such as Candles of invocation, which grant incredibly powerful, repeatable abilities, with no requirement of skill or ability. A level 1 character can use one of these just as effectively as a level 10, and, with very little work, can overpower characters 10-15 levels higher than him, with ease, and nothing else. Such an item overshadows other abilities, and makes it hard to accurately assess power levels, because it overwhelms them.
Things I believe won't: scrolls of 9th level magic. They're no more powerful than a 1 shot item should be, given the cost, skill or ability restrictions for use, and effect generated. Either you must have a large amount of magical training in a class (which shows class features) or a sizeable skill allocation (which shows class skills, feat use, item selection, and the like). Both require a significant investment to gain the bonus, thus, it shows that the ability does not provide undue power to twist the test.
Also: Skill boosts for any item. It's a rather minor bonus for a rather minor cost. While it is up to each DM to allow or disallow these on a case by case basis, common sense varies greatly by the individual. Thus, the only fair way to deal with it is all skills, or none. As the bonus is minor, and there's no real reason to disallow, all MW tools will be allowed.
Also, another:
4) Starting conditions - Buff time, and the like.
Any match I give will have the definition of "buff spell" being: A spell, nonoffensive in nature, that either improves the party benefitting from the spell offensive abilities (such as improving strength, agility, or the like), defensive abilities (such as by raising dexterity, creating force shields, blocking LOS, or blocking LOE), mobility (either by effects such as Fly or haste, or by protecting those abilities, such as Freedom of movement), or detection abilities (such as true seeing, see invisibility, or various divinations, when used to gather information).
Thus, a buff spell can be one like Heroism, to boost skills, saves, and attacks, a spell like [i]Shield[/s], or Wall of Stone, or Fog Cloud (to raise AC, block LOE/LOS, and block LOS), Haste (for extra movement, AC, and attacks), or True Seeing.
The only caveats I have to buffs are that they can take effect no closer than 20 feet from an opponent. No dropping walls of stone around your opponent. Further, no effects which would force your opponent to make a save, or change his vulnerabilities in any way, in and of itself. (A spell that gives you a bonus to penetrating SR is fine. A spell that lowers your opponent's SR is not.) This does include [i]Time Stop[i] as being a spell which is not considered buff.
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2008-06-15, 06:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks
1), 3) OK.
2) Wasn't it this 5 mile diameter sphere that Emperor Tippy suggested? Natural, though smooth stone floor, Gravity to the ground. Both start from within 30ft.
4) I also guess that during the buff round, no-one is allowed to move from the starting space.
- Giacomo
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2008-06-15, 07:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks
ag, and forgot on 3)
Is DMG p. 199 valid, i.e. 5x cost for consumable items and partially charged wands are possible (albeit at charges/5)?
Plus, can buffs at 5x costs be bought from npc casters before the duel (except the permanent ones, they should be only normal cost imo).
AND also only 25% of level 16 wbl (260,000) going to a single item?
4) On the buffing time: only hour/lvl & above buffs should be allowed. Summons that last longer than an hour (like a phantom steed) can be brought into the arena (i.e. they appear in the starting slot with the combatant).
- GiacomoLast edited by Sir Giacomo; 2008-06-15 at 07:15 AM.
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2008-06-15, 07:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks
1 shot adventure, 1 shot costs. Thus, a 9th level scroll is well and truly paid for, as is anyone else.
Note, these are consumable items. Items that have uses per day (examples: Boots of Teleportation, Metamagic Rods, etc) are exempt from this rule, as they are not consumable. Basically, any item that replenishes itself is at cost. Any item that is use once and gone? Cost x 5. Any item that is use X times and gone? charges/5.
As this is character creation, partially charged wands are allowed. Calculate price of wand before dividing charges. (thus, if you buy a wand of CLW at 1/2 charges, it costs 375gp - for 25 charges - and has 5 charges for the match.
4) For buffs, if we agree to start with X buffs in place, they may be any spell which qualifies as a buff. Restricting a caster to hours/level buffs would mean that, logically, the caster should have EVERY hour/level buff he wants... After all, they effectively last all day... The entire waking day, at least. There'd be no reason NOT to have them up. If buffs are limited to a certain number, there's no real reason to restrict them in this fashion.
If buffing rounds are used, moving is not allowed. Other valid move actions that qualify for buffing (drawing a potion of bull strength, for example) are perfectly ok.
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2008-06-15, 07:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks
OK.
Will probably be able to PM you the level 16 joker monk on Tuesday. After the match, I'll update the level 16 build in the guide above to reflect the new experiences, ideas and tactics (plus, already I found some mistakes in there).
Looking forward to it!
- Giacomo
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2008-06-15, 08:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks
So, which "test" would that be? Third?
My FFRP characters. Avatar by Ashen Lilies. Sigatars by Ashen Lilies, Gullara and Purple Eagle.
Interested in the Nexus FFRP setting? See our Discord server.
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2008-06-15, 09:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks
Yep, it's the third.
The first two are
- the Sinister spire level 6 playtest (run by Illiterate Scribe) and
- the level 6 grappling constest (run by Talic)
The links are in the updated guide, part VI (Appendix 2, external links)
- Giacomo
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2008-06-15, 11:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks
I found a motivational poster that pretty much sums up this thread.
Common sense is not so common.
Nanfoodle the Maverick, Conjurer of expensive tricks
SpoilerOriginally Posted by I'm da Rogue!
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2008-06-15, 06:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks
I am so stealing that.
"Mech is king."
Heinz Guderian
Johann Kraus avatar courtesy of Beleth.
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2008-06-16, 12:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks
Funny.
That said, I have the 16 mage, need the 16 monk.
Also, the level 6 challenge has a minor snag. The cleric has evidently run into a few snags with internet availability. If anyone wants to assist in the running of the cleric, please slip me a pm, and I'll work out what I can.
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2008-06-16, 01:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks
A few notes, giacomo.
1) In your links in your front article (as updated), you point to Silvanos saying that Flurry can be used in a grapple by RAW.
The link, however, has Silvanos explicitly stating that, by a literal interpretation of RAW, the monk cannot flurry in a grapple, any more than the fighter can gain an additional attack from Two weapon fighting.
Further, listed uses of the grapple check that are not "in place of an attack" cannot be performed with any form of additional attacks from BAB. For example, a level 16 fighter may not Move the grapple, and then make 2 attacks, even though he does have a BAB which allows him 3 attacks. Reasoning is that moving the grapple is a standard action. Listed actions that take the place of an attack are as follows:
- Attack an opponent - it is an attack.
- Damage your opponent - done in place of an attack. Deals same damage as an unarmed strike, though it is not an unarmed strike. This means that, as it is not actually an attack, creatures with natural weapons may use this option to deal damage equivalent to an unarmed attack of a creature their size, for any additional attacks they would get by virtue of a high BAB. They will get unarmed strike damage, rather than natural weapon damage, but it is possible. In addition, since it is not an unarmed strike, doing this does not provoke an attack of opportunity (the attack action above would, if performed with unarmed strike by a character without improved unarmed strike).
- Escape from grapple - done in place of an attack, provided you are not using Escape artist to do it.
- Pin your opponent - done in place of an attack.
- Break another's pin - done in place of an attack.
- Use Opponent's Weapon - done in place of an attack.
Actions that cannot benefit from multiple attacks from High BAB:
- Activate a magic item - Is still whatever type of action is would have normally been
- Cast a spell - Is whatever action it would have been, and is not allowed if greater than a full round action.
- Draw a light weapon - Is a move action.
- Move - Is a standard action.
- Retrieve a spell component - Is a full round action.
Note: if you use any action from list 2 (unless it qualifies as a swift, immediate, or free action - Such as a quickened spell), you may not full attack, any more than you'd be able to full attack after you moved, out of grapple.
2) In your links, you claim that Solo states that a monk can outdamage a fighter. While not technically incorrect, it is inaccurate, as Solo states, in that link, that an optimized monk can outdamage an unoptimized fighter. This is true for most classes. Heck, an optimized mage can outdamage a unoptimized fighter in melee. So the impact of the link is somewhat less than you'd have us believe.Last edited by Talic; 2008-06-16 at 01:40 AM.
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2008-06-16, 01:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks
On behalf of Solo, who's internet has decided to die:
How does the FOG monk win out by a wide margin against the cleric, who not only has obscuring mist as a class spell at first level, but also can buy a smoking bottle?
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2008-06-16, 02:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- *stab*
Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks
Tippy's build isn't centered around burning large amounts of cash per encounter.
Yours, however, is.
To not see the difference here is to be unable to distinguish between the drinking habits of the Baby Eating Bishop of Bath and Wells*, and those of Joseph McCarthy**.
There is a distinction between having items on hand to use every once in a while and using items so much that you drain the local magic shop of its inventory between levels use of occasional items is different from yours.
Your complaint is like a broken pencil.
*Who only liked a tipple before bedtime
**Who died of alcoholism, a broken and fogotten man.Last edited by Solo; 2008-06-16 at 02:24 AM.
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2008-06-16, 02:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks
That's not why we object.
It's because you state in response to once challenge: divine power wand.
To the next: enlarge wand.
To the next: invisibility wand.
To the next: Fog Cloud wand.
Look, by the time you've used them all, it's time for the next challenge. Cause the rest of the party killed it without you. Unless you started with fog cloud, and blocked their LOS, in which case, you probably had to use the invisibility wand to hide from your party, and the divine power and enlarge to survive the solo encounters you faced on the way back to town alone, because the party mage wants you dead for blocking his disintigrate, and the extended range trip fighter wants you dead for restricting his visibility to 5 feet. Rogue's probably not got a major beef with you, but he'll prob go along with the other two, to relieve you of the wands that he can more reliably UMD. The cleric? He'll just be irked cause he won't know exactly where the fighter was or what his HP condition was when he uttered a cry in the fog, and went silent. But he probably won't try to kill you. Maybe.
Our major beef is that you're basing your primary combat stat off a cross class skill, that can never be high enough at level 20 in core, to be used with 100% success on the higher level scrolls.
Whereas the rogue?
14 Cha, +6 cha item, +2 cha book, 2 level gains in cha = 24 cha (+7).
Skill focus, Magical Aptitude, MW tool = (+7).
Ranks at level 20 = 23
23 + 14 = +37.
DC to make any 9th level or lower scroll, check. Class skill, check.
Thus, the rogue is more reliable, at lower levels, for the tactic you suggest.
The fighter can do your tactic for equal expenditure of resources (Human feat and level 1 feat allow for feats, leaving 1 more for whatever, and a second by level 2, with more coming in. 10 int, 10 cha, and he could do every bit as much as the Joker monk, in terms of activating UMD items (greater skill use, less feat impact).
Further, the rogue would get equal benefit from divine power, greater benefit from invisibility, greater benefit from other spells such as blacklight, etc. For an equal feat impact, and lesser skill impact.
It's not that the tactic doesn't work. If it were only needed for exceptionally high threat encounters, it would be fine. But it's needed in most encounters to maintain parity. And that changes it from what Tippy's doing, using a expensive item in a clutch situation, to using expensive items in day to day encounters.
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2008-06-16, 02:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks
Actually the character you have is being changed, while it would be fun to kill the Joker with wands of magic missile it would take too long.
So:
Level 16 Wizard
Grey Elf
HP: 20
Int: 34 (18 base, 2 racial, 4 levels, 6 headband, 4 Wishes*
Dex: 22 (16 base, 2 racial, 2 gloves) (35 as a Greater Air Elemental)
Con: 8
Initiative: +11 (+17 as a Greater Air Elemental)
Feats: Improved Initiative, Spell Penetration: Necromancy, Greater Spell Penetration: Necromancy, Spell Penetration: Enchantment, Greater Spell Penetration: Enchantment, Skill Focus: UMD, Skill Focus: Ride, Extend Spell
Skills: UMD: +9 (9 base, 1 luckstone, -1 Cha), +19 when a Succubus (9 base, 1 luckstone, 9 Cha)
Ride: +19 (9 base, 1 luckstone, 6 dex, 3 skill focus, 2 handle animal synergy)
Handle Animal: 5 base
Spellcraft: +32
Concentration: +19
Items: Luckstone (20K), Headband of Intellect +6 (36K), Gloves of Dexterity +4 (16K), Cloak of Charisma +2 (4K), Orange Ioun Stone (30K), Bead of Karma (20K), Scroll of Gate x4 (35.3K), Scroll of Shapechange x (15.3K), Scroll of Disjunction x4 (15.3K), 48.1K left over
Buffs active: Contingent Dimension Door (Don't win Initiative), Phantom Steed (CL 21, extended), Moment of Prescience (CL 17)
Buff Round 1: Scroll of Shapechange to change into a Succubus
Buff Round 2: UMD Bead of Karma (auto succeeds), Free action shapechange into a Greater Air Elemental (Dex 35 with Gloves of Dex)
Round 1 (won Initiative): Free action Shapechange into a Choker, Use Scroll of Disjunction, Cast Power Word: Stun (auto penetrates SR 26 or lower).
Round 2: Cast Finger of Death (auto penetrates SR 26 or lower, Fort Save DC of 29 or Die, 3d6+21 HP damage of a successful save), Cast Finger of Death (auto penetrates SR 26 or lower, Fort Save DC of 29 or Die, 3d6+21 HP damage of a successful save)
Round 3: Cast Finger of Death (auto penetrates SR 26 or lower, Fort Save DC of 29 or Die, 3d6+21 HP damage of a successful save), Cast Power Word: Stun (auto penetrates SR 26 or lower).
Round 4: Cast Finger of Death (auto penetrates SR 26 or lower, Fort Save DC of 29 or Die, 3d6+21 HP damage of a successful save).
I win.
In the event that I don't win Initiative my contingent DD moves me and my steed 950 feet in a random direction. In my first round my Steed takes a run action to travel to within 60 feet of the Joker (run speed of 960 per round). In the event that my Steed can't get within 60 feet of the Joker in 1 round it will only close to 500 feet. If I am within 60 feet of the Joker after my Steeds run then I will proceed as above, else I will ready an action to proceed as above in the event that the Joker gets within 60 feet of me.
If the Joker uses an AMF then I will cast a solid Force Cage around him and ready an action to proceed as above in the event that he gets out of the Force Cage, my Steed will ready an action to chase him if he exits the Force Cage and isn't within 60 feet of me when he does so.
*The Wishes come from gated in Solars
----
I believe that that is everything relevant except my prepared spells. Those I will PM to you later. Although they really shouldn't be that hard to guess. 3 Power Word: Stun's, 1 MoP. 1 Forcecage, 4 Fingers of Death. Those are all the relevant spells.Last edited by Emperor Tippy; 2008-06-16 at 02:36 AM.
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2008-06-16, 02:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks
Further, to activate a wand, you must point it in the direction of the target or area of the spell's effect.
Unless you can find me an SRD wand with a "Personal" area to back up your "divine power wand" hypothesis (hint: I checked, there's not one that I've found), well, then, it's hard to justify pointing a wand at a target or area for a spell that has no target, and affects no area.
You'd have to deal with a scroll. In which case, the DC to cast the spell will be 27, and the DC to emulate a wis of 14 (if needed) is 29. Likely, the wisdom wouldn't be needed, but the fact remains, that pushes your target DC for your personal spells up by 1-7, depending on the level of the spell.Last edited by Talic; 2008-06-16 at 02:56 AM.
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2008-06-16, 02:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks
While this is a tactic that wizards can easily do, it is not allowed at character creation, as wishes have a GP value. This would put you above the WBL value allotted.
Also, initiative count is not a valid trigger for Contingency, though a valid trigger for this would be "if an opponent within 100 feet does anything."Last edited by Talic; 2008-06-16 at 02:39 AM.