Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

[Collin152]

Hmm... Feeblemind would end giamonk forever though. Int and Cha drop to 1 and you can't use any skill based on Int or Cha.

But that would require some very clever saving throw manipulation to get the Will Save DC through the roof.

Obviously you start by hitting his Wisdom score.
You know what?
Get some Allips under your control.
Laugh maniacally.

[Eldritch_Ent]

It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability.

Mojotech's suggestion is irrelevant.

Yes, to the best of it's ability, which includes grappling- which is it's best ability.


Also, you keepIt has an int of 3, it's smarter than a wolf, which use complicated pack tactics such as flanking.

Also also, you keep disparaging the poor Centipedes intelligence. Int 3 is higher than- Cat, Dog, Porpoise, Raven... And ravens are pretty smart! They can undo buttons and zippers and things. Also also, you keep referring to the Fiendish Centipede as a Vermin, which it isn't, It's a Magical Creature. In fact, I think there's a rule about magical creatures with int 3 or up being able to understand a language, but I'm not sure on that one- I'll look for it later.

Also also also, while I appreciate the attempt at a backhanded dismissal, it won't work. Just because you say it is doesn't mean it's true. I mean, I could go around saying what YOU say is irellevant, but that wouldn't be very polite of me.

Now if you'll excuse me I have some rulebooks to dig through.

Edit- Well, I looked and Magical Beasts DO gain skill points equal to 2+ their int modifier, minimum 1... Not quite what I meant, but it's not a stretch in the least to say they invested one of those in speak language- Abyssal, infernal, or Common.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hmm... Feeblemind would end giamonk forever though. Int and Cha drop to 1 and you can't use any skill based on Int or Cha.

Now, that's quite a good idea! (also vs arcane spellcasters btw, for the monk inside a ring of spell storing or UMD scroll).
Note, though, that INT and CHR of 1 does not stop the monk from charging and grappling the level 9 mage to oblivion. Plus, feeblemind is a targeted spell, so it is completely stopped by the eversmoking bottle.

But that would require some very clever saving throw manipulation to get the Will Save DC through the roof.

Edit: Let's see... the first level you'd see a feeblemind (level 5 spell) would be level 9, where giamonk's will save is +11 vs enchantment.

Wizard with a 20 starting int (grey elf, let's say), +2 from levels, +4 from item... looking at a 26 int, or +8. Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus... bringing the Feeblemind DC to 25. Giamonk would need a 14+ to pass.

With heroism up, it's 12+ to pass. Not bad, but also not that good. Yes, Feeblemind is a strong save or suck spell.

I'm sure that's far form optimized... but it really would end him quickly (and permanently, until he could get a wish.)

Well, since he could no longer speak, the joker monk would not be able to utter the wish spell himself anymore...

- Giacomo

PS: Collin152- truth to tell, I never took your post seriously to start with; similar to your Allip attack idea

[Collin152]

Note, though, that INT and CHR of 1 does not stop the monk from charging and grappling the level 9 mage to oblivion.

So... an Int 3 Centipede can't grapple, but an Int 1 Giamonk can?

SOmebody back me up. He's cheating.

[Eldritch_Ent]

So... an Int 3 Centipede can't grapple, but an Int 1 Giamonk can?

SOmebody back me up. He's cheating.

And, btw, the wizard moves faster than all Feebleminded monk challenges of his level, so he'd simply evade any of those medium (near-mindless) creatures.

[Sir Giacomo]

Yes, to the best of it's ability, which includes grappling- which is it's best ability.

Also, you keepIt has an int of 3, it's smarter than a wolf, which use complicated pack tactics such as flanking.

Yes, on paper, the grapple mod looks great- but with its INT 3, the fiendish centipede knows that without improved grab or grapple ability, a simple AoO hitting its meagre AC is enough to foil its grapple attempt entirely. So its best way of attacking is...ATTACKING! With poison, to boost.

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

And, btw, the wizard moves faster than all Feebleminded monk challenges of his level, so he'd simply evade any of those medium (near-mindless) creatures.

And, btw, the monk moves faster than all feebleminded wizard challenges of his level (note also the likely higher enchantment will save of the monk).
Your point being?

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

So... an Int 3 Centipede can't grapple, but an Int 1 Giamonk can?

SOmebody back me up. He's cheating.

He's not. Improved grapple as a bonus feat has no prereq. The monk can still use it to his heart's content, even as a (near-)vegetable.

- Giacomo

[Collin152]

He's not. Improved grapple as a bonus feat has no prereq. The monk can still use it to his heart's content, even as a (near-)vegetable.

- Giacomo

So why isn't the centipede allowed to grapple?

[Sir Giacomo]

Edit- Well, I looked and Magical Beasts DO gain skill points equal to 2+ their int modifier, minimum 1... Not quite what I meant, but it's not a stretch in the least to say they invested one of those in speak language- Abyssal, infernal, or Common.

It is a stretch. Fiendish creatures are not magical beasts, but outsiders. And any kind of skill/feat investment deviating from the standard MM description is DM fiat.

Why do you keep insisting on this side show where a wizard still loses in grappling vs a monk? A wizard should use better spells to combat a monk, not lose 1 round summoning a stupid centipede to outgrapple a monk just to humiliate him. It will simply not work. A wizard should better increase his defenses, and truth to tell- until high levels (13& up) I cannot think of any reliable defenses for a wizard in normal gameplay.

Will go to bed now.

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

So why isn't the centipede allowed to grapple?

One more: It could do it, but it would be the least powerful option to attack, since it incurs an AoO, likely failing. The summon monster spell description say that the monster attacks in the best way available. Grappling and triggering an AoO is not the best way.

- Giacomo

[tyckspoon]

I knew I'd seen it somewhere.. "Reading The Monster Entries:"

Intelligence

A creature can speak all the languages mentioned in its description, plus one additional language per point of Intelligence bonus. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise).

Fiendish creatures have an Int of 3. No language is specified under the Fiendish template, and vermin normally do not speak, so no language is given under their base monster entries either. Ergo, the default case is applied: Fiendish centipedes understand Common, even if they can't vocalize it.

[Eldritch_Ent]

Giacamo, calm down with the posts- post it all at once and just Edit in what you need. Posting like 3 times in succession simply isn't good posting!

Anyway, So now the Centipede is smart enough to know about Feats it doesn't have? You're confusing me here dude

Also, a Feebleminded Wizard still moves faster, since he probably still has Spectral Mount or Overland Flight up... (Note also the fact a Monk can't, yaknow, cast feeblemind- he has to have someone else do it for him, then activate the scroll or such later.)

Ehh, It's easy to get around AoO's. Grease. Tentacles. Do you even get an AoO when something with a longer reach than you do grapples you from outside your attack range? I mean, they aren't in a threatened square...

And a summoned creature is still a creature of the appropriate type.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonmonsteri.htm
I don't see where in this spell it says "Summoned creatures become outsiders".
And if they did, well, that's even better, since that gives him a lot of benefits, including 8 sided HD, BAB equal to HD, Good saves, proficiency with all simple and martial weapons! Nice. give Mr. Centipede a whip so he can start making trip and disarm attempts! Not the least of which it improves 8 + int mod skill points. That's 4 per level, even with the negative int mod! Mr. Centipede appreciates the points, since he can now learn Common, Abyssal, Infernal, and Gnollish, just for kicks!

[tyckspoon]

Ehh, It's easy to get around AoO's. Grease. Tentacles. Do you even get an AoO when something with a longer reach than you do grapples you from outside your attack range? I mean, they aren't in a threatened square...

Or just using multiple creatures to wear out available AoO's, although Combat Reflexes and a decent Dex means you might have to spend several rounds summoning to get a big enough mob, which isn't very efficient. And.. no, actually, I don't think you do provoke for attempting a grapple from outside your target's reach. Although there may be a FAQ or Sage answer that says you do, it doesn't seem to be in the RAW- you can only make an AoO into your threatened spaces.

Half-Celestial and Half-Fiendish creatures become Outsiders. Merely Fiendish or Celestial ones do not, however; the only type change is Animals and Vermin to Magical Beasts, because they become intelligent. But the templates also specifically say that the old type traits remain, so it doesn't make any difference. I do think the Fiendish Centipede is being robbed of feats and skill points, tho- it keeps the Vermin traits, but the Vermin type makes allowance for intelligent vermin, which do get feats and which the Centipede now is. That was a horrible sentence. Anyway, IMO it should get feats, and Improved Grapple would be a natural for it.

..it's also missing some attack bonus. A Huge Centipede has a BAB of +4 and a Strength of 17, but its bite attack is only listed as +5. Anybody know a rules reason for that, or is it just wrong?

[Eldritch_Ent]

Half-Celestial and Half-Fiendish creatures become Outsiders. Merely Fiendish or Celestial ones do not, however; the only type change is Animals and Vermin to Magical Beasts, because they become intelligent. But the templates also specifically say that the old type traits remain, so it doesn't make any difference.

..it's also missing some attack bonus. A Huge Centipede has a BAB of +4 and a Strength of 17, but its bite attack is only listed as +5. Anybody know a rules reason for that, or is it just wrong?

Ahh, thanks Tyckspoon. Which book/page is that on?
(Edit: Found it. Was looking for "Infernal" for a bit there. Silly me.
Anyway, the creature doesn't gain HD, BAB, saves, or skill points... But it doesn't mention not gaining feats! And it still gets the 3 int, so it can understand languages at least. Page 108, MM1.)

And I agree. The entry in the MM1 lists plain old Centipedes anyway, not Infernal ones. I can't fuind an actual entry for "Infernal Centipede" so I think you have to do the additional work yourself.

[Freelance Henchman]

Just thought this was interesting, stumbled over it by chance: Wand User Monk

FTA: Inevitably, every time I DM a new campaign, somebody decides to play a monk. After about level 3, they get bored of the class and ask me if they can just make a new character. I've found that monks look great in the rulebook, but starting out, they are just not as fun to play as other classes. They lack the punch and toughness of a standard fighter type, the skills of a rogue or ranger, and the utility of magic classes. But somebody always goes for them because they seem like a great long term choice.

After thinking about it for a while, I declared at a session that I have come up with the perfect monk build. I of course was asked what feats and skills make it that way so that the low levels are not so terrible. I am wise enough to know this build is far from perfect (saying it is just gets more attention from the group), but I got a good laugh out of them when I declared what the level 1 character build is. A cleric. Yes, that is correct, a cleric is likely the best level 1 monk available.

[Worira]

It is a stretch. Fiendish creatures are not magical beasts, but outsiders. And any kind of skill/feat investment deviating from the standard MM description is DM fiat.

This, good sir, is a barbarism! A blooper, a blunder, a boner! A boot! A corrigendum! A default, a deviation, a discrepancy! An erratum! A fallacy, a falsity, a fault, and a faux pas! A flub, a fluff, and a fumble! A ga-

Okay, this is taking too long. Anyway, you're wrong. From http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fiendishCreature.htm:

Size and Type

Animals or vermin with this template become magical beasts, but otherwise the creature type is unchanged. Size is unchanged. Fiendish creatures encountered on the Material Plane have the extraplanar subtype.

[Frost]

It will not do it, because having INT 3 as an outsider does not mean that it speaks common. The language is not listed among the skills of the fiendish centipedes.

Yes it does. Welcome to D&D.

So you see the monster will attack UNLESS told otherwise. Which is hard when you cannot communicate with it.

Yes, it will "attack" which means a variety of actions, not that it matters, because you can just tell it what to do in Common.

And as we can see from the spell description, the centipedes will never grapple of their own initiative (also making Mojotech's suggestions irrelevant).

Yes they will, because they will attack to the best of their ability, and that is grappling from outside your reach and pinning you, and then slowly eating you. We have already established that you don't know what is in your character's best interest and your party's best interest, so why would we believe that you know what is in the Centipede's best interest?

And, btw, the monk moves faster than all centipede challenges of his level, so he'd simply evade any of those huge (near-mindless) creatures.

And by the way, Wizard moves faster then Monk, also, note that the best Feeblemind DC you could ever manage is 17. Compared to a level 20 Wizard using a Feeblemind of DC 37. Do you think you will save is 16 points better then the Wizard's? He auto-passes your 17 at level 20, if he wasn't already immune thanks to Mindblank.

[Idea Man]

Note to all: reading all fifty-one pages of this thread may be hazardous to you health.

As far as I can tell, the wizard can tell the centipede to grapple, and the centipede will try. Lack of Improved Grapple will mean the centipede will provoke an attack of opportunity. If the monk is large-size, wielding a reach weapon (spiked chain), there's a very, very good chance the centipede will not even get the chance to grapple.

The contingency more or less neutralizes anything the monk would do initially, assuming you can choose a trigger that works. If he stays put, wizard comes over and zaps him. If he dim doors over to the wizard, he's done, same scenario. Best the monk can hope to accomplish is a buff away from the wizard that he can't hope to identify (-96?).

I don't see how the Joker monk can possibly stand against even a reasonably prepared Batman wizard. Plainly, low hit points against the Power Word spells is a failing of the Joker monk. A specific set of spells, but devastatingly powerful and fight-stopping. So, Sir Giacomo, willing to trade up your amulet of wisdom for one of constitution? It won't stop PW-S, but reduce it's effectiveness to d4 rounds. It's a shot, like so many of your abilities, right?

[Frost]

As far as I can tell, the wizard can tell the centipede to grapple, and the centipede will try. Lack of Improved Grapple will mean the centipede will provoke an attack of opportunity. If the monk is large-size, wielding a reach weapon (spiked chain), there's a very, very good chance the centipede will not even get the chance to grapple.

Except not, you missed the part about what kind of ranges Colossal creatures actually have, not to mention the ability to summon multiple giant centipede's in a single round that can all out grapple the Monk, or casting invis on the Centipede, or any number of other options.

[Kurald Galain]

This would seem relevant:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodModders

(yes, TV tropes is awesome that way)

[marjan]

It will not do it, because having INT 3 as an outsider does not mean that it speaks common. The language is not listed among the skills of the fiendish centipedes.

Guess what happens when the language isn't listed.

Intelligence

A creature can speak all the languages mentioned in its description, plus one additional language per point of Intelligence bonus. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise).

[Eldritch_Ent]

Huh. As a wierd sidenote, apparently a monster is supposed to get 1 feat for every 3 HD it has, (Page 291, top left, MM1) much like a character, but upon goingfrom Large to Huge, the standard monstrous centipede actually LOSES it's only feat (Weapon finesse). What is up with that?

[marjan]

Huh. As a wierd sidenote, apparently a monster is supposed to get 1 feat for every 3 HD it has, (Page 291, top left, MM1) much like a character, but upon goingfrom Large to Huge, the standard monstrous centipede actually LOSES it's only feat (Weapon finesse). What is up with that?

To gain feats monsters need intelligence score. This feats is racial bonus feat and probably has no use once centipede grows to huge, so there is no reason to have it.

[Oslecamo]

Just to say, the WOTC forums have reached the conclusion that trying to grapple whitout improved grapple will always provoke an Aoo. It was brought up during a cleric vs druid duel. The rules don't say anything about needing to be in reach of the creature wich is trying to grapple you.

To the best of his ability is also questionable. The centipede has poison. It doesn't have improved grapple, and it's AC sucks. If it has int, it knows that it will have much better sucess rate at trying to sting the oponent than grapple him.

[hamishspence]

understands is not the same as Speaks. Griffons can understand you, that doesn't mean they can talk to you. MM has the same bit about intelligence 3, always understands at least 1 language, Common, unless otherwise specified.

[marjan]

The rules don't say anything about needing to be in reach of the creature wich is trying to grapple you.

Yes, they do.

Threatened Squares

You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity.

[Griffin131]

To gain feats monsters need intelligence score.

False. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/m...sCentipede.htm
The Tiny, etc... ones have Weapon Finesse. The Huge one does not. They all have an Int of 0.

This feats is racial bonus feat and probably has no use once centipede grows to huge, so there is no reason to have it.

It always has a use -- All of its attacks are considered light weapons. Hence, Weapon Finesse will always apply. I can't see any reason for it to lose a feat just because it grows.

[Frost]

False. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/m...sCentipede.htm
The Tiny, etc... ones have Weapon Finesse. The Huge one does not. They all have an Int of 0.

Don't purposefully misunderstand. To gain feats from HD a creature must have an Int score.

It always has a use -- All of its attacks are considered light weapons. Hence, Weapon Finesse will always apply. I can't see any reason for it to lose a feat just because it grows.

But it's Str is greater then it's Dex, and even Exhausted with a Ray of Enfeeblement that is still true, so he's not going to use it.

[Griffin131]

Don't purposefully misunderstand. To gain feats from HD a creature must have an Int score.

Link?

(Under Mosters as Races) Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases

A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases.

Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases

A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases.

See also: Monsters as Races

I don't see a requirement to have a non-zero Intelligence. The only thing I can find says "Creatures with an Intelligence score of "—" gain no skill points or feats." The Centipede has an Intelligence of 0, not --, therefore it can gain feats from HD. If that is exactly your point, then why even bring it up when we're talking about a creature with a 0 INT, not --?

But it's Str is greater then it's Dex, and even Exhausted with a Ray of Enfeeblement that is still true, so he's not going to use it.

False. A minimum hit from a Ray of Enfeeblement ties the STR score with the DEX score. Anything more than minimum will give DEX the advantage. edit: This is at the Huge level, which is a lot of what the discussion has been at, and where the Centipede loses the feat.

Theres absolutely no reason to lose a feat, even if it's not going to normally be used.