Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

[Severedevil]

A couple of the rules you're assuming, Sir Giacomo, concern me especially. The first is the partially charged wands. (Surprise!) The second is the assumed ability to flurry in a grapple, which requires impressive contortions to treat as valid. (The FAQ listing referenced is nonspecific enough to be useless.)

If you can buy nearly-empty wands however you like them, as you assert, then why use scrolls? One-use wands are 40% cheaper and easier to UMD if you can't cast the spell. Emptied wands are just better, so no one buys scrolls to cast from - scrolls only exist when casters scribe them for personal use (still scarcely cheaper than wands) or to add spells to a spell book... in your house-ruled setting, spells in wand form don't have to be bought in bulk. Scrolls are worthless for spells of levels 1-4.

Of course, what really happens is that wands with very few charges are snapped up by adventurers like yourself, who realize that they're a much better deal for their charges because you only have to buy the number of charges you actually want. As a consequence, either wands of few charges cost more per charge, or are rarely in stock. (The former contradicts the DMG, so in strict core we should find the latter. There's an obvious scarcity since it's a resource you can't actually make). Remember, 90% of a wand's use takes place when it has more than five charges, and they can't be made that way. It's got to be at least an order of magnitude harder to find than an ~full wand of its level. Your monk will have to invest in dimensional transport so he can visit Sigil's Used Wand Emporium if he wants access to emptied wands at will and at DMG market price.


Now, regarding flurrying in a grapple... the rules allow a full attack's worth of grapple actions, and flurry bolsters the full attack, so you argue the monk gets to flurry in the grapple. Do I have this right?

There are a few problems with this - most notably the very explicit grapple rules:

If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

Your base attack bonus is unequivocally distinct from your Flurry of Blows attack bonus. There's even a separate table for each. Allowing one to be substituted for another is a house rule, since the text did not say "if you are allowed multiple attacks" or something of that ilk. If a Flurry of Blows, which is a non-BAB full attack routine, is allowed then in a grapple, then logically any full attack routine should be allowed, unless it requires weapons unusable in grapple. So now we have TWF grapples, and full natural attack routines performed as grapple checks. Ewww...

Another rules inconsistency lies in the text of Flurry - a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or special monk weapons. I think we can assume that touch attacks are included, so I don't mind a Flurry of attempts to start a grapple (possibly what the FAQ entry refers to, but more likely it's simply drivel), but a grapple check is explicitly separate from an unarmed strike. So the only consistent use of Flurry of Blows in-grapple is to make attacks at -4 with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon... never to make grapple checks. (And even this is in contravention of the construction of the grapple rules.)

Finally, for logic's sake... I can't use a Flurry of Blows while wearing lightweight, comfortable armor designed for only very mild obstruction to my freedom of movement. I certainly can't flurry while wearing a half-ton troll.

[Rashmi]

The rules for partially charged wands are found in the MiC, but they only allow 10 or 20 charges, not 5.

A) NPCs

B) Non-Core, if Gia can have partial wands that means Wizards get Incantatrix.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

In response to Giacomo's complaints about creating magic items, I have to point out that it is perfectly viable to craft during an adventure. I rarely spend more than 8 hours a day actually moving and fighting, spend 8 hours sleeping, and then have 8 more for crafting. Why do we sit for 8+ hours? Because after 4 encounters, no one has any HP or cure spells left, so it's safer just to camp than to press on. And the fighter rarely complains about taking the mage's share of camp chores, after all, that Cloak of Resistance is going to be his when he finishes.

[Idea Man]

Let's see, it is possible to purchase partially charged wands at character creation. Therefore, at character creation, it is possible to have exactly the wands you want (especially in a theoretical build).

Partially charged wands exist in treasure hoards, which may be sold if undesired. Partially charged wands are occasionally sold by the wizards/sorcerers that made them who have no need of them anymore. A partially charged wand should be available for purchase in a town large enough to support those kinds of purchases (especially in a theoretical situation). Any particular wand is available at the DM's discretion, and the number of charges will be determined by him/her, not the player.

On Flurry of Blows/Grappling:

Finally, for logic's sake... I can't use a Flurry of Blows while wearing lightweight, comfortable armor designed for only very mild obstruction to my freedom of movement. I certainly can't flurry while wearing a half-ton troll.

I like this point.

As far as resting, only pompous or paranoid mages hide in another dimension to sleep all of the time. I know the favorite hideaway spell of the mage in my games crafts a cute little cottage, very tough, but not invincible, and keeps the party from being miserable in rain/snow storms. Great for travelling, moderate level, and a reasonable use of resources at almost any level.

Being interrupted while resting doesn't happen often enough to be a detraction from the wizard class. It the exception, rather than the rule. Personally, I find my party is loath to spend time in any one location, so they were never not travelling or adventuring to craft anything, but not everyone plays our way.

[Talic]

And this is exaclty how different to a joker monk that
- will provide many more sneaking abilities to the rogue in the group

Situational. Not backed up by showing HOW.

- will take out the opponent caster who buffed vs the party spellcaster attacks

HIGHLY situational. Also, will not take out the opponent caster who is buffed against party. Disagree if you like. You're wrong.

- will grapple a troll trying to attack the fighter tackling your example giant

As the wizard can use a Wall of Force to similar effect, and STILL be able to act on following rounds.

- will use UMD to provide secondary party healing buff up the cleric's healing power for the day?

As opposed to the wizard buying the cleric a couple extra wands, and having a potion for emergencies? That way, the cleric can use those healing wands, just as the monk does, also without a single skill point invested, or feat taken?

How does a wizard "let the party do their job" when he does an area spell effect, and the monk is detrimental to the party when he uses an area effect?

Wait? What AoE spell did I suggest the wizard use? Though the wizard CAN do such tactics with Mastery of Shaping PrC feature of the Archmage which he can qualify for. Monk, unfortunately, cannot do that.

This is the problem with your double standard arguing. You are pointing "Synergy" to a wizard casting ray of enfeeblement, whereas a monk using his classabilities is considered useless, not contributing, running down only his wbl whereas I showed many, many times, with rules and examples, that it is not so.

What class ability is the monk using, when he uses a wand of XXX? Really? Show me one place in the entire Monk entry where the skill required to use that is listed. UMD IS NOT A MONK CLASS FEATURE. IT IS A UNIVERSAL FEATURE AVAILABLE TO ALL CLASSES. Other monk skills, whether they be greater movement, higher touch AC, slightly better saves (+2 at low levels, scaling to a max of +6 at the highest levels), bonus feats, improved unarmed damage, greater number of attacks... These are valid arguments for the monk. However, ANY CLASS IN THE GAME CAN ACHIEVE A +19 TO UMD AT THE LEVELS YOUR MONK DOES. Classes that get it as a class skill can do it earlier, for less resources spent.

This is the fundamental flaw in your reasoning. LogicNinja's guide is essentially, "The wizard as a team player". And, when a wizard is like that? He is never a hindrance to a party, and is not treating the party as a "doormat". Because he's not trying to steal the show. If he has to rest, it's so he can help the party do what they do better.

WHAT? Quite a few people around use the logicninja guide to argue that wizards are uber, full of combinations there is little to do against, can take on above their level CR single-handedly, in WoTC they post annoying stuff like "guide to GOD", completely looking down on people even trying to play something non-wizardly. And you are telling me here that this will not lead to a wizard trying to steal the show?

I am trying to tell you that the point of the logic ninja guide is to use the wizard in a manner that makes him most effective. This is done by NOT wasting spells on things other people can do without them, and saving those spells for the things that the party cannot do. This makes the wizard more effective. While it's true that wizards create many offensive options that are not available to other classes, the basic premise of logic ninja's guide is to avoid spells that duplicate tasks other classes can do, such as HP damage. If others wish to make that into something else, it's all well and good, but it's not logicninja's guide, and it's not my argument. Take it up with them.

A lot of this thread's existence and length stems from the problem that a lot of people exactly believe THAT. That the wizard class is way better than the monk class - you said so yourself. And now said wizard is more powerful, but not stealing the show? Really.

Yes. More powerful = better. It is possible to be more powerful, without stealing the show. You can empower everyone, do the impossible, and still leave every other role with a chance to shine.

We are of the same opinioin when it comes to interpreting the logic ninja guide to wizards as something highly useful. But I would never conclude that this makes the monk class underpowered as you would.

Logicninja's guide is not what I use to conclude that the monk is underpowered. The Class SRD entries is all I need for that. Other classes do what you're trying to do better and more reliably than the monk. Your guide ventures into rules ambiguities, and plain unsupported assertations, in an effort to validate wand use at low levels. The design of a wand is to make magic more economical for spells you will find yourself using a lot. It is written as such. It is NOT designed to allow a character to bargain basement a discount spell list. Thrift Shop spellcasting is NOT as effective as actual casters, not as viable, and not as logically sound.

You show a grasp of the technicalities of polymorph, and not the nuances. You don't polymorph for supernatural abilities. There are numerous extraordinary attacks that non-animals have, whether it's rend (troll), massive number of attacks (hydra), or what have you. These are all abilities that animals don't get, which makes polymorph a much more flexible spell.

Er...pounce? Rake? Poison? All available also for animal forms. And the hydra is a very special case, with massive number of attacks obtained at the expense of a low move (so how is it ever going to land its full attack? Hydras are often guardian monsters that are staying in one place, attacking everyone coming near - not a great pc adventurer option). A RAW case could even be made by a strict DM that since the ability is not listed as part of the extraordinary attack and racial abilities, the morphed creature will not get it. No, you used exactly the right word: nuances. The differences between the resulting powers those abilities bestow are only nuances. And wildshape is even around much longer, undispellable.

Pounce is a valid useful ability. Rake, not so much, as it's situational, and usually tied to the grapple mechanic, which stacks against even druids rather quickly. Further, poison is largely underpowered against most foes, is generally tied to vermin, and when tied to animals, is tied to forms with limited combat effectiveness. Polymorph allows a wider selection of sizes. Further, polymorph changes your creature type, allowing you to gain the base qualities of several creature types, which include the ability to be immune to critical hits, and the like. FURTHER, polymorph allows any form that wild shape can change into, and Shapechange allows far more. As for limited mobility of a hydra? By the time a wizard/sorceror hits level 9, he should be able to have an Overland Flight spell up for 9 hours a day easy. That mostly mitigates the Movement restriction of the Hydra. Moving on.

Schroedinger's Blah. I listed not 10 posts prior to yours WHY limited use wands are not feasible. You argue both sides of a coin to get it, both for and against internal consistency. As for other things? It's quite possible, and plausible for you to have issues with things such as permanent enlarge. One well placed dispel magic just cost you 3k gold. There are limitations to being large, such as squeezing limitations on space, lowered AC (-2, 1 for size, 1 for dex), and more. Keeping permanent enlarge is a BAD idea. Makes you easier to hit, limits where you can go, all for what? A bit more damage, and a bonus on grappling.

As for Schroedinger's blah:
HAs it ever occured to you in the analysis you provide above, that when the DMG offers detailed rules on how to price partially charged wands, as opposed to the value of the king's private letters, this may have something to do with the general use in game as part of the equipment?

You mean, in the same place it says you may buy them at character creation for levels above level 1? Tell me, where exactly does it say you may buy partially charged wands otherwise?

As for permanencied grapple not a great idea:
I think the instances where being large is of prohibitive disadvanatage are quite rare. Then, the risk of being targeted by a dispel magic is present, but in some cases/settings the permanencied enlarge can be of huge advantage. For instance, in the grappling contest you run and where the monk class is currently impressively showcasing its grappling power.

True. Permanencied Enlarge does net a +5 bonus to grapple. As well as -4 to hide checks. As well as -2 to AC. As well as -4 to attack and AC in any 5' wide passageway. Now, let's compare the frequency we see a 5' wide passageway with, say, casters that are buffed to take out wizards.

Horn of fog. 10x10 cubes are not effective concealment, ESPECIALLY when you're a 10x10 creature. Multiple rounds would have to be used to duplicate a single level 1 spell.

The Horn of Fog creates an effect similar to an obscuring mist spell in the round it is activated (20ft radius), and will then continue to create 10ft cubes in every round played afterwards (important, for instance, when the horn user moves or the fog is dispersed by wind, or the fog moves on due to the propulsion of the horn).
SRD (bold emphasis mine): This small bugle allows its possessor to blow forth a thick cloud of heavy fog similar to that of an obscuring mist spell. The fog covers a 10-foot square next to the horn blower each round that the user continues to blow the horn; fog clouds travel 10 feet each round in a straight line from the emanation point unless blocked by something substantial such as a wall. The device makes a deep, foghorn-like noise, with the note dropping abruptly to a lower register at the end of each blast. The fog dissipates after 3 minutes. A moderate wind (11+ mph) disperses the fog in 4 rounds; a strong wind (21+ mph) disperses the fog in 1 round.

The first line outlines that the clouds are similar to the clouds in the Obscuring Mist spell. Similar does not equal identical. Following lines outline differences. So, the fog has the same visibility of Obscuring Mist. Any round the horn is blown, by the 2nd line, it creates a 10x10 block of fog (as opposed to 20 foot radius cloud of obscuring mist). These clouds persist for 3 minutes (as opposed to duration of Obscuring mist). These clouds move in a straight line at a rate of 10 feet per round, away from point of origin, as opposed to the stationary effect of obscuring mist. Easy enough.

As for your barbarian idea? LOL. You're trying to make the monk into a diet-batman. Logicninja's guide has the wizard as the one who can drop an enlarge on the barbarian (or a ray of enfeeblement on his foe, etc). The wizard does this without a single item, and if he needs supplementary uses, can also get the wands, and use them, without a single skill point or feat invested, simply by virtue of being a wizard. Thus, you are spending your finite resources, finite skills, and finite feats to do what the wizard does for free... And you can't imagine a better way to do it?

First of all, skills and feats are not finite, but permanent.
Then, why will batman all of a sudden want to sacrifice the buff round and not become invisible, but rather buff the barbarian with an enlarge spell? I sense inconsistencies here. Part of the UMD joker monk tactics was developed to make non-casters not too reliant on caster buffs and here you say, but yes, of course batman will help everyone else first. Rachel Lorelei will have you for this...

If you have a limited amount of something, it is finite. For example, a level 1 human wizard with an 18 intelligence will have 28 skill points. Period. He must use that limited (i.e. FINITE) resource to gain permanent abilities with skills. Now, a wizard won't need to have any of those invested in UMD to use a wand of Enlarge Person, by virtue of his class abilities (spellcasting).

Then, the monk for instance uses stealth and thus without recourse to a spell or item does something where the wizard needs a spell (invisibility, and even only 1 min/lvl). Does this again mean the wizard is useless?

Stealth has many restrictions and limitations. For example, if you are in the middle of a 30' long, 5' wide corridor, and a guard enters the corridor at the other end, you have no cover or concealment, and thus, cannot hide. Second, you are trying to pigeonhole the wizard into trying to do exactly what the monk is doing. HE WON'T. Ask a rogue to kill a troll, and he's likely to use flanking to do sneak attacks. Ask a barbarian, and he's likely to use power attack and 2 handed weapons. Both will kill the troll, granted. Now, if you start saying the rogue is better because when the barbarian flanks, he doesn't get bonus damage, you are trying to make the barbarian do the task the same way the rogue would. That's not feasible. Solutions with a wizard usually rely on creative use of a wide array of abilities. Forcing him to get around a problem the exact same way a monk would limits that creativity, and is a cheap and meaningless attempt to make the caster seem weaker than he is.

And maintaining that I cannot imagine a better way to make use of a wand of enlarge is just polemics.
Basically, you are ridiculing a good idea for an ADDITIONAL WAY ON TOP OF ALL OTHERS to use the buff round only to avoid admitting that there is any good in the guide or even joker monk concept. This is really desperate.

I am ridiculing nothing. I am pointing out a lot of inconsistencies, and flaws, and other problems in your ideas, and you are responding with misleading and inaccurate rebuttals. As for the idea of the "buff round"?? Doesn't usually exist. Usually, spells are cast as they can be, in the middle of combat. If the permanent enlarged monk that's hiding at a -4 (to duplicate that feeble Invisibility spell) moves into a grapple with the troll, he has now obligated himself to do nothing else as long as he wishes to occupy the troll. When the wizard sets up a wall of force? Next round he's fully available to do anything he likes. Troll is still not in the fight.

[Midnight_v]

{Scrubbed}

[Rawhide]

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