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    Default Lord Soth V.S. The Witch King

    Okay we have the death knight Lord Soth as he was in his role in Dragonlance, fighting the Witch King as he was in the movies.

    We have two seperate scenario's to judge them on-

    The first is a 1 on 1 with the Witchking(shortly before the movies) fighting Soth(shortly before he meets Kitaria)They are in a forest with no mounts or allies to aid them, and the banshee's of soth's past gone aswell.

    The second is the witchking with the mordor army backing him Versus Soth with the blue dragon highlord aiding him, in a long term campaign.

    Who would win?
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    Default Re: Lord Soth V.S. The Witch King

    NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

    Don't you dare! Debates on Middle Earth never end well!

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    Default Re: Lord Soth V.S. The Witch King

    Hmmmmm, personally i think that it would be more interesting if it was Soth vs. Arthas, but...............hmmmmmmm
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    Default Re: Lord Soth V.S. The Witch King

    The real question here would be:
    Does Lord Soth count as a man under the terms of the Witch King's prophecy?
    I can see arguments either way, so I honestly don't think this fight will be resolved nicely.

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    Default Re: Lord Soth V.S. The Witch King

    Well, let's see, the Witch King can't kill Soth, it pretty much takes a god (or Raistlin, same diff) to do that. Soth may or may not be able to off the Witch King however. So it's either a draw, or Soth wins the dual.

    Campaign wise, I'm giving this to the Witch King however, simply because Morder controls numbers of troops far in excess of Kitiara. High numbers for Dragonlance seem to top out around 1-2 thousand. Even if they are massively superior to orcs, which is probable (I haven't thought about it enough yet) they can't actually attack and retain the numbers neccessary to guard their supply lines. Soth is something of a battle winner, owing to his general durability as well as being able to point at things and make them die, but he can only be in one place at a time.
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    Default Re: Lord Soth V.S. The Witch King

    I am a rabid Middle Earth fan, but I have to give the campaign (option 2) to Lord Soth.

    Reason: Although Mordor vastly outnumbers Kitiara's army. Kitiara's army includes *multiple* flights of dragons.

    In Middle Earth, a dragon is the ultimate "I win" button. Smaug laid waste Dale, it's kings and men, and reduced Erebor, one of the great fortresses (IMO) of MIddle Earth (so strong that 13 dwarves could hold off 2 armies inside it's gates) -- all by himself, in a *day*.

    One dragon, by itself, is a war-winner. See: The Battle of Sudden Flame, Silmarrillion. And Kitiara has *several* flights.

    Not to mention a mess of draconians, and not just the cannon-fodder Baaz. Bozaks. Auraks. Sivaks. Any one of which make Gandalf look like a grade-schooler, and some of which explode when killed.Naaasty.

    Dragonlance is simply a much higher-magic environment than ME is. Putting this on a technology scale, it's the equivalent of pitting the entire Mongol horde (mordor's troops) against 1 modern armored division (say, Hermann Goering Division, WWII). In a standup engagement, the primitives will be slaughtered. Greater numbers only mean greater slaughter.


    As towards the 1v1 -- Lord Soth can cast fireball, and Ringwraiths appear to be vulnerable to fire. That, IMO, is an instant "I win".

    How could the witch king win? Well, he's a sorcerer and commands the spirits of the dead. Perhaps he could compel Soth to his will, or turn him.

    The problem is that dragonlance is a far higher magic environment than middle earth is, so unless we do something to level the playing field, dragon lance will always win.

    The only way I could see a win is if we set Margaret Weis, Tracy Hickman, and JRR Tolkien down to a short story contest, let them each write the story, and had a panel of critics judge the result. Then, Middle Earth just might win. But even then, it's likely they'd disqualify JRR at the outset because he'd probably exceed the word limit by an order of magnitude.

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    Default Re: Lord Soth V.S. The Witch King

    GoC- ME threads never win well because you never win them, because you are against me

    WG- I don't recall, but i thought Soth wasn't that powerful enough that it required a god


    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Reason: Although Mordor vastly outnumbers Kitiara's army. Kitiara's army includes *multiple* flights of dragons.
    You underestimate Sauron's power over domination, and nasty tricks

    In Middle Earth, a dragon is the ultimate "I win" button. Smaug laid waste Dale, it's kings and men, and reduced Erebor, one of the great fortresses (IMO) of MIddle Earth (so strong that 13 dwarves could hold off 2 armies inside it's gates) -- all by himself, in a *day*.
    One dragon, by itself, is a war-winner. See: The Battle of Sudden Flame, Silmarrillion. And Kitiara has *several* flights.
    To be fair, ME dragons seems stronger, if fewer than Dragonlance ones
    Not to mention a mess of draconians, and not just the cannon-fodder Baaz. Bozaks. Auraks. Sivaks. Any one of which make Gandalf look like a grade-schooler, and some of which explode when killed.Naaasty.

    Dragonlance is simply a much higher-magic environment than ME is. Putting this on a technology scale, it's the equivalent of pitting the entire Mongol horde (mordor's troops) against 1 modern armored division (say, Hermann Goering Division, WWII). In a standup engagement, the primitives will be slaughtered. Greater numbers only mean greater slaughter.
    I don't think so. It would be a challenge, but the WK has the whole forces of modor (does that include Sauron himself?) and simply has more resources. He can use his many powers to bring down the army over time
    As towards the 1v1 -- Lord Soth can cast fireball, and Ringwraiths appear to be vulnerable to fire. That, IMO, is an instant "I win".
    WK isn't weak against Fire, through the weaker forms of hte other nazgul are

    How could the witch king win? Well, he's a sorcerer and commands the spirits of the dead. Perhaps he could compel Soth to his will, or turn him.
    Lots of really nasty monsters, and cruel tricks, like fear, domination, and magic. Most of his magic wouldn't work on Soth, but his Dragon lord friend....
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    Default Re: Lord Soth V.S. The Witch King

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilElitest View Post
    GoC- ME threads never win well because you never win them, because you are against me

    WG- I don't recall, but i thought Soth wasn't that powerful enough that it required a god



    You underestimate Sauron's power over domination, and nasty tricks


    To be fair, ME dragons seems stronger, if fewer than Dragonlance ones

    I don't think so. It would be a challenge, but the WK has the whole forces of modor (does that include Sauron himself?) and simply has more resources. He can use his many powers to bring down the army over time

    WK isn't weak against Fire, through the weaker forms of hte other nazgul are


    Lots of really nasty monsters, and cruel tricks, like fear, domination, and magic. Most of his magic wouldn't work on Soth, but his Dragon lord friend....
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    It only seems fair that sauron doesn't get involved, or soth has the queen of darkness on his side, no point involving gods or near gods in this or your asking to never finish the debate.
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    Default Re: Lord Soth V.S. The Witch King

    Quote Originally Posted by doliest View Post
    It only seems fair that sauron doesn't get involved, or soth has the queen of darkness on his side, no point involving gods or near gods in this or your asking to never finish the debate.
    Well Soth does have the Dragon lord, which is a pretty big advantage. Could he have sauron, but only in his 3E form?
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    Default Re: Lord Soth V.S. The Witch King

    I wouldn't say kitaria is any major advantage espicially compared with ANY of saurons forms, as she's pointed out that soth could kill her...easily.
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    Default Re: Lord Soth V.S. The Witch King

    You guys should stop these ME things VS other things.
    ME is low magic and low-powerfull creatures.

    Seriously. All those things are just overpowered. I mean, magic O.K. but high magic...
    And any magic occuring is by the Istari(Gandalf is one of the Istari), who are servants of the GODS of ME.


    One more thing, remember it : ME auto-wins against all these things. Because it has the power of realism on its side.
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    Default Re: Lord Soth V.S. The Witch King

    Heh. I wondered when this one would show up. And my opinion? Draw.

    Aside from Godhood, Soth can only be harmed by ridiculously powerful magic (i.e. Raistlin level) or some very powerful holy weapon. WK has neither of this so he can't harm him.

    WK can only be harmed by non-men or (as i understand it) blessed weapons himself, which Soth does not have so he can't be harmed either.

    So in a duel it's a draw, though personally I think Soth is the better swordsman. Solamnic knights are the best swordsmen on Ansalon.


    As for army on army, it depends. Soth has his skeletal legions whose touch is death and some banshees (not sure about numbers but it wasn't more than twenty of each) all bound to serve him under the terms of their curse...so none of this controlling undead stuff. I forget what they're vulnerable to though.

    As for Kit, keep in mind that during the War of the Lance she had tens of thousands serving her, and that during the Battle of Palanthas she could only fit a couple thousand inside her flying citadel. And it was still enough to burn Palanthas to the ground. So I think the numbers are more even than suspected.
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    Default Re: Lord Soth V.S. The Witch King

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilElitest View Post
    GoC- ME threads never win well because you never win them, because you are against me
    Very few ME threads end in anything other than a tie. People simply get tired of debating with you but remain completely unconvinced. Remember LK vs. WK?
    You claimed you "won" but when the poll came out people said they found the LK side's arguments more convincing.

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    Default Re: Lord Soth V.S. The Witch King

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Scaly View Post
    WK can only be harmed by non-men or (as i understand it) blessed weapons himself, which Soth does not have so he can't be harmed either.
    On the other hand, it is easy to argue that Soth does not truly count as a man in terms of the prophecy.
    He's not really human- he's not even technically alive. He's an animated corpse. Does that count as 'man?' Do animated objects (for that is what a corpse truly is) actually have genders?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vael View Post
    The real question here would be:
    Does Lord Soth count as a man under the terms of the Witch King's prophecy?
    I can see arguments either way, so I honestly don't think this fight will be resolved nicely.
    The prophecy doesn't matter. It was only there because he was destined to be killed by a hobbit. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been there. So you can ditch it.

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    Default Re: Lord Soth V.S. The Witch King

    Quote Originally Posted by Vael View Post
    On the other hand, it is easy to argue that Soth does not truly count as a man in terms of the prophecy.
    He's not really human- he's not even technically alive. He's an animated corpse. Does that count as 'man?' Do animated objects (for that is what a corpse truly is) actually have genders?
    Technically not, but everyone refers to him as a man. Even himself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenthar View Post
    The prophecy doesn't matter. It was only there because he was destined to be killed by a hobbit. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been there. So you can ditch it.
    did you even read the books? Or see the movies?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Scaly View Post
    Technically not, but everyone refers to him as a man. Even himself.
    Which is why I initially stated in the thread that it would be a very difficult argument. On one hand, technically he is not a man. On the other... in all perception and in his life, he was a man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenthar View Post
    The prophecy doesn't matter. It was only there because he was destined to be killed by a hobbit. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been there. So you can ditch it.
    Um. If someone is prophesied to be killed by a specific type of person (in this case, someone not a man), that most certainly counts if we're asking whether a certain type of person could kill them.
    And no, he was NOT destined to be killed by a hobbit, he was destined to by killed by Eowyn, who is a woman, not a man.
    In fact, if we can believe Wikipedia, Tolkien argued that it would have, in fact, been impossible for a male hobbit to kill the Witch King, as they are merely a subrace of man, and not their own race as they would like to be.

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    Default Re: Lord Soth V.S. The Witch King

    Quote Originally Posted by Vael View Post
    Um. If someone is prophesied to be killed by a specific type of person (in this case, someone not a man), that most certainly counts if we're asking whether a certain type of person could kill them.
    And no, he was NOT destined to be killed by a hobbit, he was destined to by killed by Eowyn, who is a woman, not a man.
    In fact, if we can believe Wikipedia, Tolkien argued that it would have, in fact, been impossible for a male hobbit to kill the Witch King, as they are merely a subrace of man, and not their own race as they would like to be.
    In an attempt to get in before this argument really gets going again, here is a post I'd made trying to state the prophecy != protection viewpoint.

    Short version: prophecy is a plot device. If we're introducing events outside of said plot, then it's irrelevant.
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    Default Re: Lord Soth V.S. The Witch King

    Actually, your argument seems to point more towards that no one but Eowyn could actually kill the Witch King, since the terms of the prophecy are merely vague references to what someone actually knows about the future.

    And to point things out from another viewpoint, a lot of the powers of any character come through machinations of plot. If we dismiss this prophecy merely because 'it is a plot device' then I'm sure we can dismiss a slew of Soth's powers, or many things about other threads such as this.

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    Default Re: Lord Soth V.S. The Witch King

    If Soth can have his Banshees then WK can have his Nazgul and his 8 companions.
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    Default Re: Lord Soth V.S. The Witch King

    Quote Originally Posted by Vael View Post
    Actually, your argument seems to point more towards that no one but Eowyn could actually kill the Witch King, since the terms of the prophecy are merely vague references to what someone actually knows about the future.
    Ok, that's a way to view it. This makes any and all Vs. threads involving the WK completely trivial if they do not also include Eowyn so I go with the interpretation that allows for us to have an interesting discussion involving the character (or any character with a prophesied demise).

    And to point things out from another viewpoint, a lot of the powers of any character come through machinations of plot. If we dismiss this prophecy merely because 'it is a plot device' then I'm sure we can dismiss a slew of Soth's powers, or many things about other threads such as this.
    Powers gained over the course of the story are something else entirely. It'd be entirely different to say that he doesn't get to be a wraith since the acquisition of a Ring is part of the plot too. It's not like the WK has a "everybody but an Eowyn and Merry tag-team" force field as a specific ability. I'm sure he has some sorts of protective spells going on, but the specificity of "not by the hand of man" is what the viewpoint wants to get past.
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    Default Re: Lord Soth V.S. The Witch King

    Quote Originally Posted by Innis Cabal View Post
    did you even read the books? Or see the movies?
    Yes. I remembered wrong.

    And Vael, as has already been pointed out, the prophecy does not grant protection outside of the plot, because it is merely the destiny of the Witch King in the books/movies.

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    Default Re: Lord Soth V.S. The Witch King

    I thought that the generally accepted conclusion that had been reached in other threads was that the WK can be killed by anyone, so long as they can undo his magical protection. It seemed to be accepted that it was the sword strike from the hobbit with what amounted to an anti WK sword that made the death blow possible, not her gender.

    If that is the case, then it comes down to if Soth can do that. I don't believe the Power Word Kill trick will work because WK is either undead or kept alive by Sauron's will and I don't see either of those factors overcome with that ability. Causing fear in one another is useless. WK serves an incarnation of evil and Soth has stood his ground against the primary evil goddess of his world. As far as actually destroying either one, it is not easy. It's been a while since I read the War of the Souls, but Soth was either brought down by Takhisis or her pawn Mina
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    who, also being a god, may or may not have needed any boost from the Queen of Darkness
    , both of whom wield far greater power than the WK. WK is finally destroyed with the One Ring's destruction. I don't know how WK could harm Soth in any meaningful way and Soth would have an interesting time trying to harm the WK. It could be a stalemate, or they could fight for centuries and destroy everything around them. I guess the real question is if Soth can overcome the WK magical protection or somehow undo it.

    In terms of a military conflict I think the WK potential numbers are a huge asset. Draconians are far better troops, but Soth would have far fewer of them. His hope would be the dragons. They could probably demolish the WK's army with minimal (if any) losses.

    Escalating it to Sauron's entire army and territories (and like wise escalating to the entire armies of the Dragon Highlords), I think The Highlords are in for a more difficult fight. Suaron's forces are vast and his territory (at least Mordor) is very heavily defended. The Highlords have better troops and more readily available magic (divine and arcane). The magic won't work as well (if at all) in Mordor, but up to that point they will be obliterating orcs in large numbers. Depending on how far up the Mordor anti magic effect reaches, the Flying Fortresses could be used to drop Draconians behind the Black Gate (this tactic was actually used by Kitiara). The Flying Fortresses and Dragons make static defenses less of an issue. Sauron would probably need to be dealt with by Takhisis directly (or Mina I suppose).

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    Default Re: Lord Soth V.S. The Witch King

    I think we should just keep the army battle between the Blue Dragonarmy and the forces that WK had at Pelennor Fields. If we add in Mordor and all the subject territories, then it would be Soth vs Mordor and it would turn into a Dragonarmies vs Mordor type of thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoC View Post
    Very few ME threads end in anything other than a tie. People simply get tired of debating with you but remain completely unconvinced. Remember LK vs. WK?
    You claimed you "won" but when the poll came out people said they found the LK side's arguments more convincing.
    1) An illegal poll
    2) polls mean nothing, because in terms of numbers, nothing is proved. Lots of people like Eragon, that doen't make it a good book
    3) you simply repeated your arguments again and again.
    4) most other ME threads have a clear conclusions, mostly ME winning, through few bring about losses


    The prophecy doesn't matter. It was only there because he was destined to be killed by a hobbit. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been there. So you can ditch it.
    Actually it was the gender that let Eowyn hurt him, the hobbit thing was just a different loophole

    Anyways, Soth isn't living so.....



    Also would the WK's power allow any women to hurt him, like that general


    a few other points here

    1) Just because Soth was killed by a god, doesn't mean he can only be killed by a god. I have the Dragonlance RPG (through i'm afraid to open it because of spin damage) and it has the death knight template. So a non god can kill him, through it would be hard
    2) Does the WK get all of Sauron's forces, just not Sauron? Because if that is the case, the vase number of forces compared to the Blue dragon army and lord Soth's personal army. lets look at Soth's army powers



    1) a few hundred blue dragons of various ages
    2) A few thousand humans
    3) a few thousand draconicans of various types
    4) goblins, hobgoblins, orges, a few thousand
    5) A small honor guard of skelotons
    6) 13 skelton knights and some banshees

    Sauron's force are simply absurdly massive compared to this

    Remember, even without Sauron, Dragons, for all of their power, can be affected by the WK's forces (if he gets all of his orces). Fel beats, hoards of morder flies, giant bats, normal bats, Cerbain, Crows, Cold Drakes, Fire Drakes,vampires plauge, along with archers and siege machines and towers. Also don't forget, dragons aren't immune to fear, nor to despair, nor to the corruption of mordor, and the WK has a morgul blades

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    Default Re: Lord Soth V.S. The Witch King

    EE, if we put all the armies of both the Dragonarmies and Mordor together then it ceases to be a battle between Soth and WK. How about we just keep it between the Blue Wing and the forces that WK had at Pelennor field, for example? That seems more likely to me.

    And for the record, the armies from the War of the Lance were pretty big. There are references to a Support Force that joined up with the Red Army being 10,000 strong.
    "Once you go scaly, you'll be back daily!"

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    Default Re: Lord Soth V.S. The Witch King

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilElitest View Post
    1) An illegal poll
    2) polls mean nothing, because in terms of numbers, nothing is proved. Lots of people like Eragon, that doen't make it a good book
    3) you simply repeated your arguments again and again.
    4) most other ME threads have a clear conclusions, mostly ME winning, through few bring about losses
    1) Whatever helps you sleep at night.
    2) See 1.
    3) Kettle, pot, black?
    4) See 2.

  29. - Top - End - #29
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    Default Re: Lord Soth V.S. The Witch King

    Quote Originally Posted by GoC View Post
    1) Whatever helps you sleep at night.
    2) See 1.
    3) Kettle, pot, black?
    4) See 2.
    1) There is a rule saying you can't have two threads on the same thing
    2) also i never rely on numbers. They don't prove anything. You could get a hundred thousand guys to say that Shreed Moose is an amazing webcomic and that dosen't make it so
    3) Actually no, because i countered all of yours. Mr. Scaly was the best man on your side
    4) See most ME threads, generally ME wins, through there a few more absurd exceptions
    from
    EE

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    Default Re: Lord Soth V.S. The Witch King

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilElitest View Post
    1) There is a rule saying you can't have two threads on the same thing
    2) also i never rely on numbers. They don't prove anything. You could get a hundred thousand guys to say that Shreed Moose is an amazing webcomic and that dosen't make it so
    3) Actually no, because i countered all of yours. Mr. Scaly was the best man on your side
    4) See most ME threads, generally ME wins, through there a few more absurd exceptions
    from
    EE
    1) So because it's illegal it's also invalid?
    2) No, you relied on sheer persistence. And actually due to the definition of "amazing" it does in fact make it an amazing webcomic. Also the people who remained unconvinced where intelligent and logical people so they could have been convinced had your arguments been worthwhile.
    3) You left many things uncountered despite your claims otherwise.
    4) So if ME doesn't win it's absurd...

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