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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...

    Quote Originally Posted by potatocubed View Post
    So, here's a quirk I've discovered...

    Failing a skill challenge doesn't bring an adventure to a grinding halt, it just forces you to do things the hard way.

    But D&D characters gain very real strength - in the form of XP and loot - from adversity.

    So characters will level up faster by failing skill challenges than they possibly could by passing them, especially when you consider the relative reward weightings for combat and non-combat encounters.

    Am I missing something?
    No, that makes perfect sense, after all.

    Also, it is an awesome quirk if you take the bull by the horns and run with it - "hey guys, here's another chance for us to make it as hard as possible for ourselves! Let's screw up real bad this time, I feel like a little adversity today."

    It could be a running joke in the campaign that your party fails skill challenges. Hard.

    Last edited by JaxGaret; 2008-06-28 at 12:02 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinnacle View Post
    A warlord can wake people up from unconsciousness by yelling at them.
    Hey, if a R. Lee Emery style drill sargent couldn't make you get up from almost any injury just for the opportunity to kill him later, he isn't trying hard enough.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...

    Quote Originally Posted by JaxGaret View Post
    It could be a running joke in the campaign that your party fails skill challenges. Hard.

    "How did you get to be the captain of the royal guard, Lord Bobthefighter?"

    "I started by failing to tie my shoes*, then graduated to failing to negotiate important peace treaties. I failed to detect an assassin, fell in every pit from here to the edge of the world, and I've never solved a puzzle in my life. That's given me a lot of opportunity to practice my swordwork..."

    "How about you, High Priest Bobthecleric?"

    "Failure brings me closer to my divine patron."

    "Avandra?"

    "No, Bahamut."



    * Actually because there's no Use Rope skill so it's an untrained Dex check...
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    Default Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinnacle View Post
    A warlord can wake people up from unconsciousness by yelling at them.
    Hey, if Richard was yelling at me in my sleep, I'd consider myself lucky that I got a chance to wake up!
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    Default Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...

    Was running a little "The System, and You" educational combat exploration between a Ranger/Paladin, two-character team and a young white when we found how crazy some of the dailies get.

    PHB 94: Wrath of the Gods
    Everyone standing next to the Paly when they blow this cooldown does the Paly's Cha mod in extra damage for every attack roll.

    Both were made with the Standard Array and were level 8. So the Paly was Dragonborn and had a 20 Cha by that time.

    The Ranger used abilities like Twin Strike or his multi-damage-roll cooldowns to take the most advantage of Wrath of the Gods as he could.

    After five rounds the dragon is down and we add up the damage done by the Wrath of the Gods bonus, 45 hp. Then we compare that to level 5 & 7 attack cooldowns and find that it's not as crazy as it looks.

    "I know what you're thinking. Did he use all his Daily Powers, or does he have one left. Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being that I'm a level 15 character with Powers that would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: do I feel lucky. Well do you, punk?"
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    Default Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan_Hemmens View Post
    Doesn't seem to be.

    If I had to guess, I'd say it was designed to make lightly armoured fighter builds more viable. Previously there was literally no reason for a Fighter not to wear Plate, because it's pretty much better than everything else and you've paid for it in advance, as it were.

    A light blade fighter is pretty viable in 4E, particularly with Rain of Blows.
    That's true, but paladins do get proficiency in plate. That seems odd to me. Why should the class that splits it's time between combat and prayer get a combat related proficiency get an ability that a pure cmbatant doesn't?

    I see how it's workable, it's just odd. Much like clerics and paladins not being answerable to their gods.
    DMs don't cheat, they just change the rules.

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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...

    Quote Originally Posted by potatocubed View Post
    So, here's a quirk I've discovered...

    Failing a skill challenge doesn't bring an adventure to a grinding halt, it just forces you to do things the hard way.

    But D&D characters gain very real strength - in the form of XP and loot - from adversity.

    So characters will level up faster by failing skill challenges than they possibly could by passing them, especially when you consider the relative reward weightings for combat and non-combat encounters.

    Am I missing something?
    I personally play it as 'if you fail the check and are forced to fight/etc, then you only gain the XP you would have gotten from the skill check (the fight difficulty XP being equal to the fight XP 'pool').

    I am sure that when I explain this to my characters they will be completely understanding.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallis View Post
    That's true, but paladins do get proficiency in plate. That seems odd to me. Why should the class that splits it's time between combat and prayer get a combat related proficiency get an ability that a pure cmbatant doesn't?

    I see how it's workable, it's just odd. Much like clerics and paladins not being answerable to their gods.
    Yeah, it's kind of weird, but it works when you realize that Scale Mail is really, very much better for a Fighter (who has to move around a lot and make skill checks) than for a Paladin (who mostly soaks up damage instead of dealing it out). Mainly, this is used to give a little difference between the fighter and the paladin, and since Plate isn't all that good compared to Scale, it works out.

    Re: Skill Challenges
    This is true, until you note that Complexity 3 or higher challenges give experience like an EL (Complexity) fight. So you get the same experience, but in one you aren't going to die, while in the other you might be killed but you might also get treasure.

    If you want to balance the treasure, add some bonus treasure in non-social skill challenges, with a failure gets you past the challenge, while a success gets you XP and bonus loot. Quite workable.
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    Default Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallis View Post
    That's true, but paladins do get proficiency in plate. That seems odd to me. Why should the class that splits it's time between combat and prayer get a combat related proficiency get an ability that a pure cmbatant doesn't?

    I see how it's workable, it's just odd. Much like clerics and paladins not being answerable to their gods.
    Paladins have more strictly defensive abilities and benefit from that heavy armor. Fighters have some striker-like abilities, and aren't as purely defensively focused, defender-role notwithstanding.
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    Default Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallis View Post
    That's true, but paladins do get proficiency in plate. That seems odd to me. Why should the class that splits it's time between combat and prayer get a combat related proficiency get an ability that a pure cmbatant doesn't?
    Actually, I think it makes sense for exactly that reason.

    Paladins are pretty much designed to be "Knights in Shining Armour". They get plate proficiency because, hey, otherwise it wouldn't be shining armour would it.

    Fighters, on the other hand, are supposed to represent pretty much anybody that fights with melee weapons, from pit fighters to barbarians to hoplites to knights. Fighters still get the option to buy plate proficiency, but they don't get it for free, because they get a huge whack of other stuff for free.

    Assuming they put as much effort into balancing the classes as they claimed, giving Fighters Plate Proficiency would have involved docking them something else, by making Plate Proficiency optional you make the possible number of Fighter options broader.

    Thinking about it, it's another good example of the way that limitations actually increase your options. If you get Plate Proficiency free, then anybody who doesn't wear plate is basically wasting a class feature, if you make it optional, you make other builds more viable.

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    Default Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan_Hemmens View Post
    If you get Plate Proficiency free, then anybody who doesn't wear plate is basically wasting a class feature, if you make it optional, you make other builds more viable.
    Well... only in people's minds. Either way they'd blow a feat or some such anyway for the ability you had to take away so it's all the same really.
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    Default Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Zander View Post
    Well... only in people's minds. Either way they'd blow a feat or some such anyway for the ability you had to take away so it's all the same really.
    No, the "wasting a class feature" part still stands. If they get plate free, those who don't use it have a class feature they're not using; if they get something that anybody would use instead, only people who use it spend the feat.
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    Default Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...

    Back on the original topic...


    I haven't played many 4e sessions, but in the first one, I had made a Wizard and was thinking, "geez, that INT gives me an awful lot of AC, and my hp is pretty good. I'm going to be a whole lot harder to kill than a 'squishy' should be..."

    Half an hour later, an enemy attacks, punches straight past my AC with remarkable ease, and drops me to one-quarter health. My opinion on how durable a Wizard was went back to "extremely squishy" REAL quick
    Last edited by Artanis; 2008-06-28 at 06:34 PM.
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    Default Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinnacle View Post
    No, the "wasting a class feature" part still stands. If they get plate free, those who don't use it have a class feature they're not using; if they get something that anybody would use instead, only people who use it spend the feat.
    You don't understand. Yes, it is true they would not be using a class feature. But it isn't as though they'd be any weaker than a fighter who does make use of it.

    It isn't like wasting a feat, or something that you have a limited supply of. If Fighters got the bonus ability of being able to buy up to 4 weightless frogs for free, would it be "wasteful" not to use it?
    Last edited by shadow_archmagi; 2008-06-28 at 06:40 PM.
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    Default Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...

    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    Back on the original topic...


    I haven't played many 4e sessions, but in the first one, I had made a Wizard and was thinking, "geez, that INT gives me an awful lot of AC, and my hp is pretty good. I'm going to be a whole lot harder to kill than a 'squishy' should be..."

    Half an hour later, an enemy attacks, punches straight past my AC with remarkable ease, and drops me to one-quarter health. My opinion on how durable a Wizard was went back to "extremely squishy" REAL quick
    Wait. Int gives a bonus to AC (Defense?) now?
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    Default Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...

    Quote Originally Posted by PhallicWarrior View Post
    Wait. Int gives a bonus to AC (Defense?) now?
    Yes, if you're wearing light or no armour you apply either your Dex or Int modifier to your AC.
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    Default Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhavaer View Post
    Yes, if you're wearing light or no armour you apply either your Dex or Int modifier to your AC.
    Which means that in 4E, you can not only be too agile for armour to be useful, you can be too smart for armour to be useful.:)

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    Default Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...

    Quote Originally Posted by tbarrie View Post
    Which means that in 4E, you can not only be too agile for armour to be useful, you can be too smart for armour to be useful.:)
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    Default Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallis View Post
    That's true, but paladins do get proficiency in plate. That seems odd to me. Why should the class that splits it's time between combat and prayer get a combat related proficiency get an ability that a pure cmbatant doesn't?

    I see how it's workable, it's just odd. Much like clerics and paladins not being answerable to their gods.
    Also, there is a mechanical reason. Paladins - especially Charisma based paladins - have MAD and are unlikely to be able to meet the stat requirements for plate armor via feat. Whereas fighters are far more likely to be able to meet those requirements without having to sacrifice their primary attributes (otherwise known as Usefulness).

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    Default Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...

    Quote Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi View Post
    If Fighters got the bonus ability of being able to buy up to 4 weightless frogs for free, would it be "wasteful" not to use it?
    Dude, you turned down the weightless frogs? Why do you even bother to PLAY this game?

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    Default Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...

    Quote Originally Posted by tbarrie View Post
    Which means that in 4E, you can not only be too agile for armour to be useful, you can be too smart for armour to be useful.:)
    Since there is no maximum dex bonus on armors, you can't be either
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    Default Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...

    RE: Fighter/Paladin plate. Hey, give the poor fighters a break, they can barely afford scale armor & both a melee & ranged weapon ;)

    I thought it was a misprint at first too. Like the fact that fighters don't start out with a known skill by default (neither do warlords). Having run throiugh some sample sessions (3 times now, and I *still* haven't had a kobold fail the save to keep from being thrown into the sludge pit) I have to say it doesn't really hurt them in practice yet.
    Last edited by TheEmerged; 2008-06-28 at 08:58 PM.
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    Default Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockphed View Post
    Since there is no maximum dex bonus on armors, you can't be either
    Except that all heavy armors keep you from using your Dex or Int bonus at all.
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    Default Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinnacle View Post
    Except that all heavy armors keep you from using your Dex or Int bonus at all.
    Sometime in 4E, people are just too smart to wear good armor.
    Last edited by Andras; 2008-06-28 at 09:07 PM.

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    Default Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andras View Post
    Sometime in 4E, people are just too smart to wear good armor.
    Actually, it'd be that there's armor that's too good to be worn by smart people, but I just like splitting hairs

    I think the first "That's not right" sort of moment occured when I saw you no longer rolled your saving throws, they were set. But then I saw people roll for spells, so it started making some sence.

    Also, I noticed that while you can 'grab' and thus immobilize opponents, and drag them away too, there is no more 'grappling'. It seems sad that I can't grab, punch/beat on, pin, hog-tie, and wrestle all with the same skill anymore.
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    Default Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...

    I found it kind of interesting that Paladins of Asmodeus do radiant damage. Then I flipped through the DMG and saw that DM's were supposed to change it for worshippers of evil deities.
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    Default Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...

    Quote Originally Posted by King_of_GRiffins View Post
    Actually, it'd be that there's armor that's too good to be worn by smart people, but I just like splitting hairs
    Aww, a griffin! Cute!
    .... sorry.

    Anyways, it's not related to 4e, but in my first game of 3.0e, my cleric started out with 16 Dex, breastplate, and a tower shield, and some magical equipment for a total of 12 AC. Yep, I forgot that you start at 10 AC, and then add the bonuses. The amazing thing? We ran through a couple sessions before catching the problem, yet the enemies weren't hitting my unusually low AC anyways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by erikun View Post
    Aww, a griffin! Cute!
    That made my day, thank you so much for that *gives griffin-hugs*

    And really, I sorta made the same mistake in 4E today while reprinting my sheet
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikun View Post
    Aww, a griffin! Cute!
    Quote Originally Posted by Collin152 View Post
    Heyheyheyheyheyhey.
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    Quote Originally Posted by King_of_GRiffins View Post
    That made my day, thank you so much for that *gives griffin-hugs*
    Heyheyheyheyheyhey.
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    Default Re: 4E "That Can't Be Right..." Moments...

    Quote Originally Posted by Collin152 View Post
    Heyheyheyheyheyhey.
    If griffin-hugs are going around, I want in on them!
    Well, only because you asked so nicely *gives Collin griffin-hugs as well*

    Now get back on-topic!
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikun View Post
    Aww, a griffin! Cute!
    Quote Originally Posted by Collin152 View Post
    Heyheyheyheyheyhey.
    If griffin-hugs are going around, I want in on them!
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