Arena Tournament, Round 46: Chile VII vs. Horny

[chilepepper]

Oops. I double checked and you are correct about the round count. My last move was round 10. Luckily, I landed that turn anyway, so my move as posted was legal. From P5, you don't see Chile.

My move coming next.

edit: You're probably aware, but for refs reference, the entangle ended last round too.

[chilepepper]

Chile finishes casting a spell and summons an Owl in S9. The owl charges you (flying at ground level) ending in P6, and attacks with it's talons.
(1d20+10)[17]
1d4-3= 1 damage

Corey draws a whetstone from the bag, moves to P5/+75 and drops it.
(1d20-2)[1] (sans dive, -2 for range)
(1d6)[1]
Reflex to negate

stats

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HP 7/7
AC 14 T14 F14
Spells:Guidance, CMW, CMW // SNA I, Entangle
Condition: Animal Devotion:Hawk's Flight
Travel Devotion 10/10
Position: S6/+20'
Holding nothing

Corey
Small Air Elemental
Position: U1/+65
Hit Dice: 9/9 (2d8)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 14
Holding bag of 20 stones

Owl - 1/2 rounds
AC 17 (+2 size, +3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 14 (-2 charge)
HP: 4/4
Attack: Talon +5 (1d4-3) (ashbound = +3 luck bonus)

Done.

[stupnick]

listen check to hear you finish casting the spell, as i don't think corey was yelling this whole time.
(1d20-1)[1]

[stupnick]

move action remove shield (i guess i forgot to specify that i don't actually wield this, normally just like always you don't have weapons in your hands w/o specifying. but i will go along with it. i only keep the shield if i need to deal bludgeoning )
heroic surge, retrieve potion.

stats

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End of Round 11
Location: P5
HP: -5/13
AC: 18
T: 12 F: 16

[chilepepper]

So, need a high ref to rule whether or not that causes you to fall unconscious per Diehard. I assume our interpretations conflict.

[Bayar]

The Diehard feat makes you act as if normal even when you are 0- -9. When you hit -10 you die.

[stupnick]

why would i fall unconsious?

[chilepepper]

Bayar, please take a moment to read Diehard. The feat clearly indicates you are not normal, you are disabled.

When reduced to between -1 and -9 hit points, you automatically become stable. You don’t have to roll d% to see if you lose 1 hit point each round.

When reduced to negative hit points, you may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn’t your turn). If you do not choose to act as if you were disabled, you immediately fall unconscious.

When using this feat, you can take either a single move or standard action each turn, but not both, and you cannot take a full round action. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other action deemed as strenuous, including some free actions, swift actions, or immediate actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you take 1 point of damage after completing the act. If you reach -10 hit points, you immediately die.

Heroic Surge lets you take an additional move or standard action in a turn once a day. However, being able to take three actions in one turn does not free you from the limitations imposed by diehard. It doesn't matter how many actions you could have taken, you're only allowed one move or standard while at negative HP. If you take move than one move or standard action, you are no longer acting "as if disabled" and you immediately fall unconscious.

edit: also

move action remove shield (i guess i forgot to specify that i don't actually wield this, normally just like always you don't have weapons in your hands w/o specifying. but i will go along with it. i only keep the shield if i need to deal bludgeoning )

in my hands are two shields. once in each hand.

[stupnick]

kewl i didn't remember posting that, b/c i only attack with my gore unless i need the shield... but that works for me... next round i can still take my potion...

[chilepepper]

We still have to sort out the unconsciousness because of Diehard issue.

[chilepepper]

Heroic Surge

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Benefit: You may take an extra move or attack action, either before or after your regular actions. You may use Heroic Surge once per day for every four character levels you have attained, but never more than once per round.

[Talic]

High Ref Talic

When reduced to negative hit points, you may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn’t your turn). If you do not choose to act as if you were disabled, you immediately fall unconscious.

Relevant text bolded. The choice on whether to act as disabled is made when the HP are reduced to negative HP. This is not something where you can treat each sentence as totally independent of context of the sentences around it.

In fact, if we go by the strictest interpretation the way Chile is reading it, if the character is healed to 1 hp, and is no longer negative hp, and chooses to perform both a move and a standard action, that character would immediately fall unconscious.

Benefit: You may take an extra move or attack action, either before or after your regular actions. You may use Heroic Surge once per day for every four character levels you have attained, but never more than once per round."

The real question is, how does the Heroic Surge feat interact with the disabled status? The fact that the soulmeld version of this feat is just all around better notwithstanding, let's look at the order.

Player chooses to act disabled. Thus applies the following condition:

A character with 0 hit points, or one who has negative hit points but has become stable and conscious, is disabled. A disabled character may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can she take full-round actions). She moves at half speed. Taking move actions doesn’t risk further injury, but performing any standard action (or any other action the DM deems strenuous, including some free actions such as casting a quickened spell) deals 1 point of damage after the completion of the act. Unless the action increased the disabled character’s hit points, she is now in negative hit points and dying."

Some text lined out, as Diehard explicitly allows you to treat at disabled when in negative HP.

So now, player has the three major action limiting restrictions:
1) half movement
2) any standard action causes 1 damage after action's completion.
3) limited to a move or standard action each round.

Such a character performs Heroic Surge.

Gains an extra action.

Now we can interpret it as, "character no longer acting as if disabled, as he's taking more than 1 action a round"...

Or we can interpret the actions as "consistent with the actions of a disabled character who performs heroic surge".

I'll give other refs a day or so to weigh in on this, but, if there's no major counterarguments to this, I intend to go with the 2nd interpretation.

[chilepepper]

Thank you Talic and any other refs that help out.

While the debate continues, I'd like to ask one other question.

If he gets to use Heroic Surge despite the "limited to a single move action" of diehard, would he take a point of damage because of taking two move actions. Question is in reference to this:
"or any other action the DM deems strenuous, including some free actions such as casting a quickened spell"

[Talic]

Ref Talic

"Other things the DM deems" are not typically acted on, as they're subjective. For purposes of Diehard, it explicitly states that taking move actions does not risk further injury. Thus, "other actions deemed strenuous" would likely not include move actions, which are already specifically exempted.

Standard actions would most assuredly cause it, as would casting a quickened spell (specific listing). I'd even be apt to expand that to any action which is normally a standard action.

But move actions, by the wording of the disabled status effect, would be exempt from damage.

[chilepepper]

I was thinking a move action isn't too strenuous. Anything above and beyond that, like two move action, is.

[Talic]

Ref Talic

Taking move actions doesn’t risk further injury...

I see where you're coming from, however, the text in the disabled lists move actions in the plural. Further, the decision on what is and isn't "too strenuous" would be mighty blurry if we allowed seperate interpretation on each action. In instances such as circumstance modifiers, which are the province of the DM, we generally default to no modifier, unless text specifically lists a modifier. In instances where other actions can be assigned as strenuous, we should follow that pattern, and generally default to not adding additional actions piecemeal to the list.

I can see broad classifications of actions, such as interpreting the quickened spell text to include all rushed actions that are normally standard actions. However, it's hard to add multiple move actions in on that ground, as the text of disabled specifically exempts move actions in the plural.

[chilepepper]

I believe the pluralized is indicating a generality, but I can understand the Arena's stance. So is your ruling official, or are you still waiting on other ref input. I'm fine either way.

[Talic]

High Ref Talic

There's been opportunity for those who wished to weigh in. In the absence of those people, the above rulings by me are now official, unless overturned by a higher ref. Play commences.

[chilepepper]

Okay, AoO from the owl for retrieving a potion.

(1d20+8)[26]
1 damage if hit (1d4-3)

[chilepepper]

Corey draws another whetstone and drops it

(1d20-2)[3]
(1d6)[5]

The owl attacks again

(1d20+8)[26]
1 damage (1d4-3)

and Chile...

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moves to U4 and hides (1d20+6)[25]

tats

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HP 7/7
AC 14 T14 F14
Spells:Guidance, CMW, CMW // SNA I, Entangle
Condition: Animal Devotion:Hawk's Flight
Travel Devotion
Position: U4/+20', hiding
Holding nothing

Corey
Small Air Elemental
Position: P5/+75
Hit Dice: 9/9 (2d8)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 14
Holding bag of 19 stones

Owl - 2/2 rounds
AC 17 (+2 size, +3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 14
HP: 4/4
Attack: Talon +5 (1d4-3) (ashbound = +3 luck bonus)

Done.

[stupnick]

ok i take 2 damage...

the owl should be pop, correct?

if owl pop, quaff potion

if owl not pop, 5ft step (free action) quaff potion

stats

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End of Round 12
Location: P5
HP: -7/13 +(1d8+1)[9] = 2/13
AC: 18
T: 12 F: 16

[chilepepper]

As of your turn, the owl has not popped. You take a 5' step and quaff, don't forget you take a point of damage for a taking that standard action.


My turn, now the owl pops.
Corey draws another stone, dives down 30', and drops it.
(1d20+2)[5]
(1d6)[1]

Chile...

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Maintains hide

stats

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HP 7/7
AC 14 T14 F14
Spells:Guidance, CMW, CMW // SNA I, Entangle
Condition: Animal Devotion:Hawk's Flight
Travel Devotion
Position: U4/+20', hiding
Holding nothing

Corey
Small Air Elemental
Position: P5/+45
Hit Dice: 9/9 (2d8)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 14
Holding bag of 18 stones

Owl - 2/2 rounds

Done.

[stupnick]

double move to W10, looking for chile

[roll=reactive spot]1d20+2[roll]

stats

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End of Round 13
Location: P20
HP: 1/13
AC: 18
T: 12 F: 16

and according to Disabled
Disabled
A character with 0 hit points, or one who has negative hit points but has become stable and conscious, is disabled. A disabled character may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can she take full-round actions). She moves at half speed. Taking move actions doesn’t risk further injury, but performing any standard action (or any other action the game master deems strenuous, including some free actions such as casting a quickened spell) deals 1 point of damage after the completion of the act. Unless the action increased the disabled character’s hit points, she is now in negative hit points and dying.

it deals the damage after the act is completed. since i would no longer be diabled after the act is completed no damage is dealt to me.

[stupnick]

rerolling the reactive spot check since it did not work

(1d20+2)[19]

[Talic]

High Ref Talic

Actually, Stupnick, I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. Removing the disabled status does not prevent you from taking damage from actions performed while disabled.

While not explicitly laid out in the SRD, leaving a bit of room for interpretation, I did recall seeing a wizards publication where it was spelled out a bit more clearly, and, after perusing, located it.

When an action you take when disabled deals you damage, you complete the action first, then take the damage. Since you have 0 hit points when disabled, you usually collapse and immediately begin dying. If the action you use gains you hit points, you still take 1 point of damage for using a standard or strenuous action while disabled, but your condition after taking that damage depends on your current hit point total. For example, you have 0 hit points and are disabled. You cast a cure light wounds spell that gives you 5 hit points. After casting the spell, you take 1 point of damage, leaving you with 4 hit points. Because you have a positive hit point total, you are not dying or disabled after taking the damage.

Link follows for convenience.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050621a

[stupnick]

thank you. so noted.

LOS check and also question for ref's

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can i throw those wetstones back? there is a bag still left on the ground over there, if i pick them up can i throw them back either 1 at a time. if not can i tie the bag closed and throw the whole bag as 1 item at him?

[Talic]

Ref Talic

LOS and other assorted things:

@Chile:

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You have no LOS.

@Elemental:

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LOS to Horny at W10.
LOS to Chile in U4, elevation 20.

@Stupnick:

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LOS to elemental in P5, elevation 45.

To answer your question, yes, though whetstones, when not dropped per HoB rules, would be treated as improvised thrown weapons, and would have a ranged increment of 10 feet, with a -4 to the attack. Damage would most likely be as a sling bullet (closest weapon match I can see).

[chilepepper]

Whoa, totally missed the move up there. Glad I scanned back.

Corey moves to W10/+95 and draws a stone.

Chile...

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Is going to drop prone. I assume that means he won't see me unless he breaks the +20' mark, at which point hiding is irrelevant. Although, I just had a weird idea involving taking my clothes off, but I'll not expunge on that.

Since Corey is relating your position, I'll let you know you don't have LoS.

stats

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HP 7/7
AC 14 T14 F14
Spells:Guidance, CMW, CMW // SNA I, Entangle
Condition: Animal Devotion:Hawk's Flight
Travel Devotion
Position: U4/+20', prone
Holding nothing

Corey
Small Air Elemental
Position: W10/+95
Hit Dice: 9/9 (2d8)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 14
Holding bag of 17 stones // 1 stone

Owl - 2/2 rounds

Done.

[stupnick]

i pick up the bag of whetstones and draw one out getting ready to throw one at corey.

stats

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End of Round 13
Location: P20
HP: 1/13
AC: 18
T: 12 F: 16

[chilepepper]

Throwing whetstones... is that going to be 1d3+str improvised thrown weapon?

Corey drops one whetstone and draws 2 more.
(1d20-2)[9]
(1d6)[5]

Chile..

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works on his tan.

stats

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HP 7/7
AC 14 T14 F14
Spells:Guidance, CMW, CMW // SNA I, Entangle
Condition: Animal Devotion:Hawk's Flight
Travel Devotion
Position: U4/+20', prone
Holding nothing

Corey
Small Air Elemental
Position: W10/+95
Hit Dice: 9/9 (2d8)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 14
Holding bag of 15 stones // 2 stones

Owl - 2/2 rounds

Done.