[Vampire: The Masquerade] Can 4 Ancilla kill a Primogen?

[Xanos]

Hey hey.
So, I'm the ST for a group o' 4 semi-unexperienced players. Basicly, they're Sabbat who're infiltrating the Camarilla. They're going to be dead-set on assassinating the Primogen, and my question is: Is this even remotely imaginable?


So far, the group looks as if it's going to consist of: A Lasombra, a Malkavian, a Brujah and a Nosferatu.

That being said, they have a Mystery Chick, a Battlefield Control, a frontline Warrior and the Info-gatherer.

Assuming they have no Disciplines over dot 3, is it plausable for them to take down a Primogen 1 by 1, of Vampires of at least 200 years of age (short of the Gangrel, who's like, Fledgeling)?

The Primogen consists of:
Brujah
Toreador
Tremere
Ventrue
Gangrel
Nosferatu


I see them taking down the Brujah and Toreador. They're both pretty stereotypical: Brujah's a bit dump but strong. Outsmarting him is the game.
The Toreador's a Celerity pumper, but other than that, he's pretty weak.

But what about the rest? Is it plausible for 4 Ancilla to kill a 350 year old Tremere with several paths dot 3-4-5?

Nosferatu with Vanish From Mind's Eye?

Ventrue with security systems for his security systems?


Thougts / Comments would be greatly appreciated.

[Aron Times]

They're Sabbat, so sacrificing minions should be alright with them. Have them create a horde of ghouls to attack the primogens in daylight. They'll probably get slaughtered, but Sabbat vampires usually don't care about this.

[Xanos]

They're Sabbat, so sacrificing minions should be alright with them. Have them create a horde of ghouls to attack the primogens in daylight. They'll probably get slaughtered, but Sabbat vampires usually don't care about this.

Yea I thought about that, having ghouls blast the windows or some such. Only problem I can see with that is, Sabbat = Probably low in their respective paths. Thus, they rise late. Thus, someone noticed the Primogen was dead before the party wakes up. Dead ashes + Neutral Giovanni in town = Baaad. Bad. Baad.

[Kurald Galain]

Hey hey.
So, I'm the ST for a group o' 4 semi-unexperienced players. Basicly, they're Sabbat who're infiltrating the Camarilla. They're going to be dead-set on assassinating the Primogen, and my question is: Is this even remotely imaginable?

Hahahaha!

In a word, no. In two words, hell no.

They're "semi-unexperienced". That's bad. They have no high disciplines. That's also bad. They're infiltrating. That, too, is bad. If the Sabbat was even remotely that good at eliminating primogen, there'd be no Camarilla left.

The term is "ancilla", by the way, not anchille.

Also, to succesfully infiltrate anything, you're going to need social skills. Malkavs, Brujah and Nosferatu are not particularly known for theirs...

Both Brujah and Gangrel would likely wipe the floor with them in combat, and both are likely to have allies. Toreador is likely to have lots 'n lots of allies, including other Kindred, because that's what Toreador do. Oh yeah, and he'll have Majesty running. Yes, you'll beat him in combat, but you'll never face him in combat. A 350-year-old tremere would likely have paths at dot 6 or maybe even 7. Even aside from that, Thaumaturgy is bad news. Let me paraphrase that, bad news. And anything with obfuscate 4+ they simply can't find.

[Fax Celestis]

If they can gang up on them, or take them out one at a time AND ARE SMART, sure. No problem. If they take them en masse, they're boned.

Also, that Tremere may give some issue. The Gangrel too, if they cross-Disciplined Potence or Celerity. But then again, Tremere and Gangrel pretty typically win when it comes to a throwdown. Nosferatu can be nasty, also, but you really got to cheese them with the Nos-only merits/flaws. Large Teeth + Blunt Teeth + Potence = hueg agg damage.

[Krrth]

You said they are infiltrating the Camarilla? Have *any* of them commited diabarie?

As for a Tremere primogen, probably not. Most likely there is a Gargoyle nearby, and as I recall they can detect obfuscated beings in the building they protect.

[Fax Celestis]

You said they are infiltrating the Camarilla? Have *any* of them commited diabarie?

Point taken. Aura Sight is an automatic clarion on that one.

[Xanos]

Also, to succesfully infiltrate anything, you're going to need social skills. Malkavs, Brujah and Nosferatu are not particularly known for theirs...

Well, obviously, there's plot behind them ending up as infiltrators. They're cammie gone rogue gone infiltration, and because of a healthy purging-rate in the Sabbat, they haven't been sold out. Yet.
And why-o-why would it require social skills? Heck, even without them having infiltrated, they could've just gotten floor-plans of their appartments and wired them up with explosions or ghould suicide bombers.

Both Brujah and Gangrel would likely wipe the floor with them in combat, and both are likely to have allies. Toreador is likely to have lots 'n lots of allies, including other Kindred, because that's what Toreador do. Oh yeah, and he'll have Majesty running. Yes, you'll beat him in combat, but you'll never face him in combat. A 350-year-old tremere would likely have paths at dot 6 or maybe even 7. Even aside from that, Thaumaturgy is bad news. Let me paraphrase that, bad news. And anything with obfuscate 4+ they simply can't find.

Yea, Brujah and Gangrel would wipe the floor with them. In a stand-up fight. Lasombra, Nosferatu, Malkavian? Not known for stand-up fighting.
And for the Toreador to throw up Majesty, he'd have to know they were there. Besides, Majesty isn't *that* bad, 1 willpower plus a none-botched roll with neglect the effect, right?
But the Tremere.. Yea. He could be none-battle focused, though. It's modern ages, information's more powerful than bloodboil / Lure of Flames. Sure, he'd have them, he's old and not stupid, but I wouldn't put them as his main focus.
Nosferatu with Obfuscate 4+ would take brains to find, at least. I wouldn't call it impossible. There's always the age-old trick involving a video camera being brought by a party member, and having one hang back and feed them information. Besides, you can't obfuscate your way out of lots and lots of fire.
But then, of course, there's the whole "He's a Nosferatu" thing. He'd probably be hard to find.

You said they are infiltrating the Camarilla? Have *any* of them commited diabarie?

As for a Tremere primogen, probably not. Most likely there is a Gargoyle nearby, and as I recall they can detect obfuscated beings in the building they protect.

None of them have comitted diablerie, which is why it's them infiltrating.


And hell no, no gargoyles. Only that woman in.. Ceoris? Crafting Gargoyles in Masquerade. Wouldn't want another Gargoyle Rebellion.






I think they could pull it off, if they were more experienced. I've played Vampire for a few years now, and I'm 100% I could exploit Vampire weaknesses to pull it off (kill 'em while they sleep, poison their herd, wiring the downstairs floor with explosives ect.). Problem is, can they as players having played Vampire somewhere between 1-4 times?

[Krrth]

Well, obviously, there's plot behind them ending up as infiltrators. They're cammie gone rogue gone infiltration, and because of a healthy purging-rate in the Sabbat, they haven't been sold out. Yet.
And why-o-why would it require social skills? Heck, even without them having infiltrated, they could've just gotten floor-plans of their appartments and wired them up with explosions or ghould suicide bombers.



Yea, Brujah and Gangrel would wipe the floor with them. In a stand-up fight. Lasombra, Nosferatu, Malkavian? Not known for stand-up fighting.
And for the Toreador to throw up Majesty, he'd have to know they were there. Besides, Majesty isn't *that* bad, 1 willpower plus a none-botched roll with neglect the effect, right?
But the Tremere.. Yea. He could be none-battle focused, though. It's modern ages, information's more powerful than bloodboil / Lure of Flames. Sure, he'd have them, he's old and not stupid, but I wouldn't put them as his main focus.
Nosferatu with Obfuscate 4+ would take brains to find, at least. I wouldn't call it impossible. There's always the age-old trick involving a video camera being brought by a party member, and having one hang back and feed them information. Besides, you can't obfuscate your way out of lots and lots of fire.
But then, of course, there's the whole "He's a Nosferatu" thing. He'd probably be hard to find.


None of them have comitted diablerie, which is why it's them infiltrating.


And hell no, no gargoyles. Only that woman in.. Ceoris? Crafting Gargoyles in Masquerade. Wouldn't want another Gargoyle Rebellion.

Heh. Doesn't have to be a newgargoyle.
As for Diablerie, as I recall, some of the practices of the Sabbat cause a false positive.....since there are No Lasambra in the Camarilla, how do they explain that?

[Xanos]

Heh. Doesn't have to be a newgargoyle.
As for Diablerie, as I recall, some of the practices of the Sabbat cause a false positive.....since there are No Lasambra in the Camarilla, how do they explain that?

There're some. Anti-tribu Lasombra exist. Read the un-official "clan" book, it's actually pretty cool.
It basicly states, that Lasombra's antedeluvian (who was pro Camarilla) is still alive, and is the puppeteer of the Sabbat, waiting for the perfect time to smite the none-believers of the Sabbat and rejoin his brethren within the Cammie.

And meh, I just tend to avoid gargoyles. They've the whole "Am I a being?" thing, and that ridicously stupid Gargoyle with Obeah snatched most of them in, what, the 19. century?

[Kurald Galain]

Well, obviously, there's plot behind them ending up as infiltrators. They're cammie gone rogue gone infiltration, and because of a healthy purging-rate in the Sabbat, they haven't been sold out.

Ah, I was thinking of the social kind of infiltration. Still, they'll likely need some kind of network.

And for the Toreador to throw up Majesty, he'd have to know they were there. Besides, Majesty isn't *that* bad, 1 willpower plus a none-botched roll with neglect the effect, right?

No, it's always active. And yes, Majesty is that bad. Spending willpower isn't a good sign, and have you seen the difficulty of that roll, and how long it neglects the effect, and how many allies it gives him? (although this does depend on which edition of Vampire you're using) Why do you think Princes like Majesty so much?

There's always the age-old trick involving a video camera being brought by a party member, and having one hang back and feed them information.

It depends on your interpretation of the rules whether that would actually work - I would argue that it does not. Remember that obfuscate is intended as a psychological "ignore me!" effect.

I've played Vampire for a few years now, and I'm 100% I could exploit Vampire weaknesses to pull it off (kill 'em while they sleep, poison their herd, wiring the downstairs floor with explosives ect.).

Problem is, that's more than a little meta, and essentially relies on outsmarting your GM, or the GM overlooking that yes, long-lived vampires do have thought of that before, and do have contingency plans. Because if they didn't, however have they lived so long?


I stand by my statement that any primogen, anywhere, that could be offed by a small gang of neonate Sabbat would in fact already have been killed a long time ago.

[Krrth]

There're some. Anti-tribu Lasombra exist. Read the un-official "clan" book, it's actually pretty cool.
It basicly states, that Lasombra's antedeluvian (who was pro Camarilla) is still alive, and is the puppeteer of the Sabbat, waiting for the perfect time to smite the none-believers of the Sabbat and rejoin his brethren within the Cammie.

And meh, I just tend to avoid gargoyles. They've the whole "Am I a being?" thing, and that ridicously stupid Gargoyle with Obeah snatched most of them in, what, the 19. century?

Yeah, I know about the Anti-Tribue. They are just so rare, most kindred have never heard of them. They'd have to do some serious explaining, and even then would most likely be under suspicion.

It's not as bad as the True-Brujah, or the Salubri, but still....

Anyways...I would expect them to loose vs/ the Tremere. The nossie will have obfuscate, true. But the Tremere has Auspex. Lure of flames is incredibly nasty. If he's really 350 years old, he could even be as low a generation as 7...as a pc.

[Fax Celestis]

Yea, Brujah and Gangrel would wipe the floor with them. In a stand-up fight.

Yes.

Lasombra, Nosferatu, Malkavian? Not known for stand-up fighting.

You're kidding, right? Lasombra and Nosferatu both get Potence, and Lasombra get Obtenebration. Obten + Potence = pain, and Potence + Obfuscate = Pain from the shadows.

And for the Toreador to throw up Majesty, he'd have to know they were there. Besides, Majesty isn't *that* bad, 1 willpower plus a none-botched roll with neglect the effect, right?

Negates for one turn.

But the Tremere.. Yea. He could be none-battle focused, though. It's modern ages, information's more powerful than bloodboil / Lure of Flames. Sure, he'd have them, he's old and not stupid, but I wouldn't put them as his main focus.

Modern age? Path of the Leavenbolt is amazing. Power small appliances! Electrocute your enemies! Impersonate Emperor Palpatine!

Nosferatu with Obfuscate 4+ would take brains to find, at least. I wouldn't call it impossible. There's always the age-old trick involving a video camera being brought by a party member, and having one hang back and feed them information. Besides, you can't obfuscate your way out of lots and lots of fire.

Higher Obfu works vs. things that don't have minds.

Also, what's the coven makeup? I mean, if you've got a Salubri Antitribu, you've got a powerhouse on your hands with Valeren. Lasombra's strong too, as is a well-built City Gangrel, a Assimite with Potence cross-Disc, or any form of Tzimisce. Hell, don't forget Tremere Antitribu: they DO exist.

[Xanos]

Anyways...I would expect them to loose vs/ the Tremere. The nossie will have obfuscate, true. But the Tremere has Auspex. Lure of flames is incredibly nasty. If he's really 350 years old, he could even be as low a generation as 7...as a pc.

Luckily, there isn't a chantry in town. Then they would be very, very screwed.

They bane will be spike damage. A Brujah with Potence and Celerity, acting 4 turns in their 1-2? Hitting for at least 4-5 lethal / round? Dead vampires, very, very quickly. Same with the Tremere, who'll at least have Lure of Flames to the point where he can reliably deal at least a few Aggravated per turn.

So, what would the least lame way be to deal with the Tremere?

I'm reluctant in sending along a .. STNPC? with Counter-Thaumaturgy, even though the party probably would think it was pretty cool. Artifacts and the likes? No way. Never. Ever.
Also, the Tremere would have a bunch of rituals having about his haven as he sleeps, making it impossible to kill him during the day. Wards against ghouls are, what, second level rituals? Anti-sun is first.

So assassination during the night would be the most plausible option.
He's a Tremere, and he's full of himself. Hitting him at range would be sweet, he's fragile for a 350 year old vampire, meaning 3x 3 Lethal damage would probably best his low Stamina and soaking abilities. Two shots with a sniper rifle, for example.
But.. Only the Brujah can shoot a gun. And then there's the logistic problems with sniping.

Yes.

You're kidding, right? Lasombra and Nosferatu both get Potence, and Lasombra get Obtenebration. Obten + Potence = pain, and Potence + Obfuscate = Pain from the shadows.

Yea, I know. But the Lasombra's Mystery Girl, and not focused on stand-up fighting. Nosferatu is pooling his Discipline-points into Obfuscate, and is going for Knowledges and social contacts.

Negates for one turn.

Fight probably shouldn't last more than a few turns anyway. All of them should have enough to keep at least 3 of the party members standing for 3 turns.

Modern age? Path of the Leavenbolt is amazing. Power small appliances! Electrocute your enemies! Impersonate Emperor Palpatine!

Tremere won't be faced in stand-up. They'll die. Horribly.

Higher Obfu works vs. things that don't have minds.

Really? Would love to see where that's from. As far as I can tell from the general rulebook, Obfuscate doesn't work through cameras.

Also, what's the coven makeup? I mean, if you've got a Salubri Antitribu, you've got a powerhouse on your hands with Valeren. Lasombra's strong too, as is a well-built City Gangrel, a Assimite with Potence cross-Disc, or any form of Tzimisce. Hell, don't forget Tremere Antitribu: they DO exist.

They're going those 4 and no one else.

[Fax Celestis]

So, what would the least lame way be to deal with the Tremere?

Find someone from a local mage's chapter? Hire someone in the Technocracy? Drop hints to some wolfkin, who pass it to their werewolf bretheren? Play some of the other Primogen (or the Prince!) against him? Hire a questionably-moraled hunter?

There are ways.

[Kurald Galain]

So, what would the least lame way be to deal with the Tremere?

That would be to either posit that there isn't one (substitute another tribe) or having him caught in politics.

See, the problem is that the party isn't playing to the Camarilla's weak point: infighting.

Also, the Tremere would have a bunch of rituals having about his haven as he sleeps, making it impossible to kill him during the day. Wards against ghouls are, what, second level rituals? Anti-sun is first.

There's also Wake With Evening's Freshness (lets the Tremere automatically wake up if disturbed during daytime), and there's an even funnier one, which simply states that whenever intruders enter his haven, it is now nightfall. Wait, how did that happen?

[Xanos]

Find someone from a local mage's chapter? Hire someone in the Technocracy? Drop hints to some wolfkin, who pass it to their werewolf bretheren? Play some of the other Primogen (or the Prince!) against him? Hire a questionably-moraled hunter?

There are ways.

Though Magi hate Tremere, the group is Vampires. I'd pretty much enfore the "Bloodsuckers? Kill 'em with Fire!" before questions are asked. Same with Werewolves.
Politics will be pain, as they're Anchilla, and no one ever listens to an Anchilla. They'd have to come up with something pretty clever to pull it off, which I doubt they will.

See, the problem is that the party isn't playing to the Camarilla's weak point: infighting.

They're newbies, they still have to get the feel of the game.

There's also Wake With Evening's Freshness (lets the Tremere automatically wake up if disturbed during daytime), and there's an even funnier one, which simply states that whenever intruders enter his haven, it is now nightfall. Wait, how did that happen?

Obviously, a Tremere did it. :p.

[Cathaidan]

Look, it doesn't matter what you're playing, it is possible to take down Primogen. Its just that you have to smart about it. If I have said it once, I've said it a thousand times, the PLAN is everything when dealing with vampires older than you.

The easiest way for anyone to take down Primogen (without it coming back to bite them in the ass of coarse) is to spend a few years propping one Primogen up over the others. Once the others start to look at the top dog with nothing but jealousy, its time to make a deal. A little information leak here, a little retainer removal there, and you have two Primogen throwing down in a shadow-war that you've started. Two man enter, one man leave. But even with this strategy, I'd only give it a 1 in 9 success rate. Primogen are old, they know the political game and they've been playing for decades, they can usually see through this type of thing.

Anything even remotely resembling a frontal assault should fail miserably. You don't live to be 200 without knowing how to plan for a frontal assault, having a back up plan for when your original plan fails and having a back up plan for when your back up plan fails.

[Fax Celestis]

Though Magi hate Tremere, the group is Vampires. I'd pretty much enfore the "Bloodsuckers? Kill 'em with Fire!" before questions are asked. Same with Werewolves.
Politics will be pain, as they're Anchilla, and no one ever listens to an Anchilla. They'd have to come up with something pretty clever to pull it off, which I doubt they will.

Well, do any of them have dots in Contacts? Dots in Allies? Anyone got a Ghoul? Send in the minions. Vampiretaint can be the result of as little as being fed upon by one: a well-thought story can convince a mage or 'wolf that the person in question is merely an unfortunate victim.

[Xanos]

Look, it doesn't matter what you're playing, it is possible to take down Primogen. Its just that you have to smart about it. If I have said it once, I've said it a thousand times, the PLAN is everything when dealing with vampires older than you.

The easiest way for anyone to take down Primogen (without it coming back to bite them in the ass of coarse) is to spend a few years propping one Primogen up over the others. Once the others start to look at the top dog with nothing but jealousy, its time to make a deal. A little information leak here, a little retainer removal there, and you have two Primogen throwing down in a shadow-war that you've started. Two man enter, one man leave. But even with this strategy, I'd only give it a 1 in 9 success rate. Primogen are old, they know the political game and they've been playing for decades, they can usually see through this type of thing.

Anything even remotely resembling a frontal assault should fail miserably. You don't live to be 200 without knowing how to plan for a frontal assault, having a back up plan for when your original plan fails and having a back up plan for when your back up plan fails.

It'll be too impending for them to wait a few years.

Hm. I wouldn't put it past the Primogen to be caught up in their old ways. They're always well prepared, sure. But when you've dealt with politics for the last X years, you only really deal with the diablerie guys every once in a while.
I dunno, I don't envision the Sabbat as being masterminded enough to strike smart. Sure, they can raid, sure, they raid good once they do. But exploiting weaknesses instead of using their own strength? Not their style.

Well, do any of them have dots in Contacts? Dots in Allies? Anyone got a Ghoul? Vampiretaint can be the result of as little as being fed upon by one: a well-thought story can convince a mage or 'wolf that the person in question is merely an unfortunate victim.

Seems a little.. Weak. There's a big difference in being bitten by a vampire, and being a none-breathing dead walking corpse. Mages will probably see through it, and Garou will just give you a good nose-over.

[Fax Celestis]

Contacts/Allies/Ghouls are all still-living real-world counterparts: there's nothing that says they have to be vampires. In particular, ghouls are merely regular people who're addicted to vampire blood. They're still alive.

[Cathaidan]

It'll be too impending for them to wait a few years.

Hm. I wouldn't put it past the Primogen to be caught up in their old ways. They're always well prepared, sure. But when you've dealt with politics for the last X years, you only really deal with the diablerie guys every once in a while.
I dunno, I don't envision the Sabbat as being masterminded enough to strike smart. Sure, they can raid, sure, they raid good once they do. But exploiting weaknesses instead of using their own strength? Not their style.

With the Sabbat its all a matter of what you're dealing with. Assuming you are running with the Harbringers of Skulls actually being the surviving Cappadocians, then yes, they know how to plot and scheme. The Serpents of Light, I mean really, no matter what they call themselves a Setite's hiding in the corner, hoping the others won't hit them in the face is a type of scheming. And then there's the whole Lasombra clan. I mean, they are supposed to be the tactical masterminds that can rival anyone, or have we forgotten how they took over the church in the Dark Ages.

Bottom line, Sabbat can plan and scheme better than the kindred of the Camarilla, because if they don't, a Tzimisce will eat their face off.

[Xanos]

Contacts/Allies/Ghouls are all still-living real-world counterparts: there's nothing that says they have to be vampires. In particular, ghouls are merely regular people who're addicted to vampire blood. They're still alive.

Hm.. Perhaps it's just the experienced Vampire player talking, but it would be a cold day in hell before I let a contact / ghoul do my business with Mages or Garou.
But I suppose they'd attempt that. Got to drop some plot hooks in the mage/Garou direction so they know they exist, though.

With the Sabbat its all a matter of what you're dealing with. Assuming you are running with the Harbringers of Skulls actually being the surviving Cappadocians, then yes, they know how to plot and scheme. The Serpents of Light, I mean really, no matter what they call themselves a Setite's hiding in the corner, hoping the others won't hit them in the face is a type of scheming. And then there's the whole Lasombra clan. I mean, they are supposed to be the tactical masterminds that can rival anyone, or have we forgotten how they took over the church in the Dark Ages.

Bottom line, Sabbat can plan and scheme better than the kindred of the Camarilla, because if they don't, a Tzimisce will eat their face off.

Well, depends on how much communication is going on between the packs and the guys above. There isn't a Lasombra / Harbinger of Skull mastermind for every single mission, so the packs are most likely left to their own plans. In most cases, where a pack consists of Neonates / Ancilla, scheming and masterminding is far-fetched.

Besides, I wouldn't want to be the ST telling them exactly what to do and how to do it. They have to learn to think for themselves. I just want to post a challenge for them, but I want it to be beat-able within their ability-array.

[Fax Celestis]

Hm.. Perhaps it's just the experienced Vampire player talking, but it would be a cold day in hell before I let a contact / ghoul do my business with Mages or Garou.
But I suppose they'd attempt that. Got to drop some plot hooks in the mage/Garou direction so they know they exist, though.

Sometimes, there is no other option besides sending in the minions.

[Xanos]

Sometimes, there is no other option besides sending in the minions.

True, true. I wouldn't put it past them to attempt this, and I might just let it slide. But then it would be a Mage covanent or a Garou pack facing off an old Tremere. Speaking of experience, it can go both ways. Unless I make the Mages / Garou ridiciously overpowered.

[Fax Celestis]

True, true. I wouldn't put it past them to attempt this, and I might just let it slide. But then it would be a Mage covanent or a Garou pack facing off an old Tremere. Speaking of experience, it can go both ways. Unless I make the Mages / Garou ridiciously overpowered.

Well, the other thing is, the mages/garou aren't dumb: they may well take the offer from the minion, follow through on the hit on the Tremere, and then follow the minion back to the coven: now the players have to deal with a pack of 'wolves or a covenant of mages...or, worse, the Technocracy. Sure, Mr. Tremere is gone, but now they've got bigger problems.

Hell, the PCs could stay nearby the fight between Mr. Tremere and Their Hired Help and then mop up the survivors--surely in an epic fight, the 'wolves'll burn through their rage, Tremere will burn through his blood, etc., making them easier targets to take out.

[Cathaidan]

Besides, I wouldn't want to be the ST telling them exactly what to do and how to do it. They have to learn to think for themselves. I just want to post a challenge for them, but I want it to be beat-able within their ability-array.

There is a vast difference between telling them exactly what to do and punishing them for making foolish mistakes. Actions such as taking out power players in town, for most games anyway, is a very long term goal. As such your players should have to sit down and think about this from many angles before they succeed. They should have a detailed idea about who they are after, where the target is likely to be, what powers the target is likely to have, what escape routes the target is likely to choose, what back up the target will have, etc. Then they should also have plans for when the first few attempts fail miserably, how do they prevent the ramifications from falling back onto them.

After STing for three different LARPs and a few TT games, the one complaint that I have about most players is that they don't take the time to logically think about the actions they are about to take before they take them. They rely on their stats and their cool powers to save the day for them. The fact of the matter is that when you are talking about knocking off elders who are over 200 years old then they've seen your powers before, they have a rough idea of how they work and they know how to deal with punk neonates/ancilla that think they're hot stuff because they just learned some new trick.

Keep in mind I'm not saying that taking out Primogen should be impossible, but it really is the type of thing that should take a long time, should involve many sessions worth of executing minor plans that aid the PC's in getting one step closer to taking down the Primogen and should punish them for reckless behavior. (Besides, the Sabbat uses shovel-heads when they're doing reckless things, and usually those are just a cover for what the pack is actually doing behind the scenes.)

[Fax Celestis]

Keep in mind I'm not saying that taking out Primogen should be impossible, but it really is the type of thing that should take a long time, should involve many sessions worth of executing minor plans that aid the PC's in getting one step closer to taking down the Primogen and should punish them for reckless behavior. (Besides, the Sabbat uses shovel-heads when they're doing reckless things, and usually those are just a cover for what the pack is actually doing behind the scenes.)

Alternatively, it should be something that exploits a weakness of the particular Primogen.

...like being an Ananasi with the Scent of the Other merit, infiltrating vampire society, and then leading the severely arachnophobic Malkavian Primogen into a den of your bretheren.

That was a good day at that LARP. A good day.

[Leewei]

So, I'm the ST for a group o' 4 semi-unexperienced players. Basicly, they're Sabbat who're infiltrating the Camarilla. They're going to be dead-set on assassinating the Primogen, and my question is: Is this even remotely imaginable?

Imaginable? Certainly. In doing so, they'll be the unwilling tools of one of a rival primogen, one or two senior sabbat, a methuselah or two and an antediluvian, each of which will show up at a later date to collect on the "favors" they lent (probably in the form of information, good or otherwise) to the PCs to get the job done.

[amanamana]

The question is: do you make these Primogen vampires go outdoor? Do they have places they got to be, usually? Because, if so, any of them could be taken down with the right amount of patience, arrangements, explosives and large sniper rifles! The only problem would be, usually, the Nosferatu, with his high offuscation and low-profile habits...
You don't even have to be a vampire or have any supernatural power, as long as you have knowledge of the habits of your prey.