Deadlocked: Paragon Circuit (4E) - 5-Way Free For All Battle

[mayonase]

[? ...*rereads rules*... ...Why did I have it listed as a Minor...? I stand corrected; no Full Defensive action. I used my second Minor action to throw an obscene gesture at the Elf.]

[stupnick]

btw i didn't move at all.. keep me where i started...

if i move i will update the map. according to fleeting ghost, it states you can move.. doesn't say i have to.

also 2 notes,

you can only designate your closest enemy as your quarry. the only way to designate someone else (a second quarry) is if they are closer than your original quarry... else you don't have a target for your 2nd quarry...

and, since i am invisible you can not designate me as your quarry. nearest enemy means nearest enemy you can see. so if you have someone closer to you but they are invis or behind a wall and you can't see them or don't know they are they, you can't designate them as your quarry.

[Kiara LeSabre]

Correction on the map update:

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And hey, it's not my fault everyone is attacking me, stupnick. I kind of have to ignore the rogue when a defender's in my face.

[Blackdrop]

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That -7 is just mean spirited kiara. Well here we go:
(1d20-7)[6] Save vs. Slow
If failed:
(1d20-7)[3] Save vs. Unconscious
Fully updated movement:
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Hey stupnick, I've been looking it over and there is no way you could get in range to hit Velna with your hand crossbow.
This purely if I saved:

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Minor action: Potion of Vitality +25 Hp
Move action:
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Standard Action: Crusader's Boom
-Attack: Strength vs. AC (1d20+20)[37]
-Hit: (4d10+10)[29]
-Miss: Half damage
Effect: Me and My allies adjacent to me gain a +1 power bonus to attack rolls until the end of the encounter.
Remember this is only if I made my saves

[Kiara LeSabre]

Move Action
Fleeting Ghost.
[roll0]

Minor Action
Hide In Plain Sight - I am invisible until I move.

Wait, a question? How did you do this without concealment or cover? Fleeting Ghost doesn't give you the ability to hide without concealment or cover, and you can't use Hide in Plain Sight at all unless you're hidden first.

[Kiara LeSabre]

Osiris: No, the hand crossbow has a base range of 20/10, 25/15 with Far Shot, and with Distant Shot, it may as well just be 25. I'm not out of range.

[mayonase]

[Osiris, unless I'm mistaken, you actually make those saves at the end of the round, meaning you get a full slowed round to do your thing. You are close enough to Velna to spend a move and then do a Charge, or use some other Paladin power that lets you shift and attack or something before you black out.

I'll post my actions soon against the Elf; won't have any effect on your side of the battle so it doesn't matter which of us posts first.]

[Kiara LeSabre]

[Osiris, unless I'm mistaken, you actually make those saves at the end of the round, meaning you get a full slowed round to do your thing. You are close enough to Velna to spend a move and then do a Charge, or use some other Paladin power that lets you shift and attack or something before you black out.

Actually, he's right about that, too, although wrong about the move and charge. You could spend a move to stand (I knocked you prone, remember? ), but you can't charge because Velna is more than two squares away.

Since you already rolled two failed saves, it would be reasonable to say that one was the save granted by the Potion of Vitality, and the other was your failed save at the end of your turn (whatever you decide to do), leaving you unconscious and waiting for next turn to roll a save again.

The good news is you still have a move action and a standard action to spend aside from the potion if you want. The bad news is the move is going to be spent just standing up, and you have a speed of 2.

[mayonase]

Feeling dazed and confused, and more than a little p***ed off, Buggy finds his feet and makes a wild charge against the Elf who has been attacking him, wielding his spear to show him the difference between an arrow prick and a good piking.

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Charge (d20+27)[30]
Damage (d12+22)[28] plus (2d6+2)[11]

Daze Save (d20)[3]

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[stupnick]

ok, saves are done at the end of that creatures next turn.. not at the end of the round.

so you have at least 1 turn with those effects unless someone helps you get out of it.

also. if you read fleeting ghost
Fleeting Ghost Rogue Utility 2
You are stealthy and fleet of foot at the same time.
At-Will ✦ Martial
Move Action Personal
Prerequisite: You must be trained in Stealth.
Effect: You can move your speed and make a Stealth check.
You do not take the normal penalty from movement on
this check.

the power itself allows you to make a stealth check. it does not state you may make a stealth check if able. it states, "you can move your speed and make a stealth check" so therefor i can make a stealth check, since i get to make a stealth check i am hidden at least for that second against anyone who i beat. and then i use hide in plain sight for invisibility since i am now hidden, even for just a split second.

[Kiara LeSabre]

the power itself allows you to make a stealth check.

Ah, well, if you were going by that assumption, you need to select new move and minor actions because you're mistaken:

http://www.enworld.org/wiki/index.ph...ervice_Answers

(Look under the Fleeting Ghost heading)

The only thing Fleeting Ghost does is give you the ability to move your speed without penalty when you make Stealth checks and not just one-half your speed.

So I'll go ahead and remove the sneak attack damage on Velna.

[stupnick]

i'm sorry, but customer service is not a valid place for answers regarding issues with the game. they have been proven incorrect on NUMEROUS occasion. until this appears in the errata you have to play it according to the book.

and if you want to use them as the example, they completely contridict your elemental maw teleport theory.. so they are wrong on that according to you. you can not pick and choose what pieces of thier info you want to use

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Wizard:p.167; Elemental Maw
Q: For the teleportation effect of Elemental Maw (in addition, you teleport that creature to a square within 20 squares of you), can you teleport the target vertically? For instance, can you in that case teleport the target 20 squares into the air, causing them to fall and take another 10d10 falling damage?

A: Yes, you may teleport that creature vertically.

[Kiara LeSabre]

i'm sorry, but customer service is not a valid place for answers regarding issues with the game. they have been proven incorrect on NUMEROUS occasion. until this appears in the errata you have to play it according to the book.

Okay, you can move your speed and make a Stealth check. Let's refer to Steath:

Cover or Concealment: Unless a creature is distracted, you must have cover against or concealment from the creature to make a Stealth check. You have to maintain cover or concealment to remain unnoticed. If a creature has unblocked line of sight to you (that is, you lack any cover or concealment), the creature automatically sees you (no Perception check required).

We all have unblocked line of sight to you, so we automatically see you (no Perception check required). Nothing in Fleeting Ghost contradicts this. It says you can make a Stealth check, but it doesn't say you're exempt from needing cover or concealment to avoid being automatically seen.

Since you're automatically seen, you aren't hidden, and you have to be hidden to use Hide in Plain Sight.

Seriously, it's a level 2 at-will utility power that's just there to give you the same effect as Secret Stride. What you want is Shadow Stride, which is a warlock class feature.

[stupnick]

technically yes, and technically no....

Fleeting ghost
Effect: You can move your speed and make a Stealth check.
You do not take the normal penalty from movement on
this check.

Shadow Stride
Effect: You must be hiding to use this power. You can move
your speed. At the end of that movement, if you have
cover, you can make a Stealth check with no penalty for
moving. If you make the Stealth check, you stay hidden
during your movement.


now why does shadow stride specify that you need cover, and fleeting ghost does not... from fleeting ghost you are actually hidden so i can use hide in plain sight. according to examples from the book it is allowable.

[Kiara LeSabre]

technically yes, and technically no....

Fleeting ghost
Effect: You can move your speed and make a Stealth check.
You do not take the normal penalty from movement on
this check.

Shadow Stride
Effect: You must be hiding to use this power. You can move
your speed. At the end of that movement, if you have
cover, you can make a Stealth check with no penalty for
moving. If you make the Stealth check, you stay hidden
during your movement.


now why does shadow stride specify that you need cover, and fleeting ghost does not... from fleeting ghost you are actually hidden so i can use hide in plain sight. according to examples from the book it is allowable.

The point of Shadow Stride is what I just bolded: you stay hidden during your movement if you have cover at the end of it. In other words, you can cross open spaces with no cover and concealment without losing your hidden status as long as you end your movement in cover. That's a level 10 utility power, and only then are you finally gaining the ability to cross open spaces without losing your hidden status, and only then if you end your move in cover.

The point of Shadow Stride is also what I bolded: it exempts you from the penalty from a full move. You can always attempt a check, whether it makes sense or not! On my turn, I could have Velna make a Stealth check. Everyone would automatically succeed on their Perception checks, but I could do it if I wished.

A more realistic example that could actually happen in a game: Sneaky McRogue has cover relative to someone he's spying on, so he makes a Stealth check. Unbeknownst to Sneaky, Batman McWizard is watching him while under the cover of a Greater Invisibility spell. Sneaky does not have cover relative to Batman. Sneaky still makes his check -- he can make Stealth checks any time he likes! -- but Batman automatically succeeds on his Perception check (no check required!) because Sneaky doesn't have cover or concealment relative to him.

Please stop trying to turn a level 2 utility power into something stronger than a level 10 one, when it's very obviously not intended to work that way and doesn't even work that way RAW. That's some pretty stinky cheese, honestly.

[Kiara LeSabre]

Anyway, Osiris, you're still free to perform a move and a standard action before falling unconscious, and you're still prone and slowed. Care to do anything before Velna acts?

[stupnick]

well i am playing the power the way it is written in the book. i apologize if it isn't how you would like to see it. but i will play it your way, against what the book states, so we can move on with the game.

if that is the case then my whole action woudl be invalidated as i would not have done that action if those conditions didn't exist, and not to mention this arena very much so gives the rogue a complete disadvatage.

so i see it 1 of two ways, my action happened as described, or 2 i get to retake my whole action as the end of my action relied upon the beginning.

[Kiara LeSabre]

well i am playing the power the way it is written in the book. i apologize if it isn't how you would like to see it. but i will play it your way, against what the book states, so we can move on with the game.

if that is the case then my whole action woudl be invalidated as i would not have done that action if those conditions didn't exist, and not to mention this arena very much so gives the rogue a complete disadvatage.

so i see it 1 of two ways, my action happened as described, or 2 i get to retake my whole action as the end of my action relied upon the beginning.

Fine, if your entire action is going to be completely different now (not just the same attacks again after a different move action), then retake it. And no, even if you keep saying it, your interpretation is not RAW because Shadow Stride offers no exemption from the cover or concealment requirement anywhere in its text, and you could already attempt a Stealth check any time you wished, whether success was possible or not.

Yes, these arenas are a huge disadvantage for rogues in most cases. I commented on that earlier in the epic circuit thread.

[stupnick]

standard action bluff check, only need to beat a 23 to be able to stealth vs buggy..
(1d20+20)[33]

i use my stealth check to stealth i already rolled in my first time trying these actions. which then let's me use hide in plain sight.

[the quinn]

By the way I just contacted wizards and they told me that you don't have to follow the regular rules
Sputnick is correct I can forward you the email if you give me you emails
But sputnick is correct

[Kiara LeSabre]

By the way I just contacted wizards and they told me that you don't have to follow the regular rules
Sputnick is correct I can forward you the email if you give me you emails
But sputnick is correct

Okay, assuming this isn't Customer Service (which sputnick already said isn't a useful authority, and besides, they'd be directly contradicting themselves), I'd love to see this as well as the exact wording of your e-mail to them. I PMed my e-mail.

[mayonase]

[Are you attacking me this round? Or just invisible to me for future actions? Either way, I believe it's Kiara's go now.]

[Blackdrop]

Yeah I'm going to use the Turn the Tide Utility power. It lets me make a saving throw against any effect that a save can end. Since I'm still just slowed at this point, if I make the throw to resist it then I ignore the unconscious effect correct? And does you -7 still apply?

(1d20-7)[3]

[Kiara LeSabre]

[Are you attacking me this round? Or just invisible to me for future actions? Either way, I believe it's Kiara's go now.]

Actually, everyone rolls Insight against his Bluff check, and he has to beat all of our results:

"As a standard action, make a Bluff check opposed by the Insight check of an enemy that can see you (if multiple enemies can see you, your Bluff check is opposed by each enemy’s Insight check). If you succeed, you create a diversion and can immediately make a Stealth check to hide."

But I'm waiting for Quinn to e-mail me this source that isn't Customer Service that says that stupnick is right.

[stupnick]

i would love to see them, if you want to pm them here, or [email protected]

and it's sTuPnick...

and i am not attacking anyone buggy.... i am invisible vs everyone

[stupnick]

yup everyone needs to roll a insight check vs 33, if i beat 1 person i am invisible...

[mayonase]

[Time for a 20! Insight Check: (d20+13)[33]]

EDIT:

...I can't believe that worked...

EDIT 2: ...I BLEW MY 20 ON THAT?!?!?!?

[Kiara LeSabre]

yup everyone needs to roll a insight check vs 33, if i beat 1 person i am invisible...

Actually, you technically have to beat everyone, RAW, or you don't even get to hide. However, I think it would be a reasonable houserule to say that you can hide and then become invisible to anyone who fails the Insight check. There's no special reason why a high-Insight person just being in the area would make you less able to pull your trick against low-Insight people, any more than a low-Insight person just being in the area would make a high-Insight person suddenly blind.

Mind you, each person you successfully Bluff still has a passive Perception check to beat with your Stealth check. However, while Insight allows you to actively roll to beat a Bluff check without any action spent, an active Perception check requires a standard action. So you only have to beat passive Perception.

[Kiara LeSabre]

Insight: (1d20+20)[28]

[stupnick]

well technically i am hidden against anyone that fails. the use of my hide in plain sight actually turns me invisible vs everyone...