The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed - Coming in December and available for pre-order now
Results 1 to 23 of 23

Thread: [4e] Hexes?

  1. - Top - End - #1
    Librarian in the Playground Moderator
     
    Mark Hall's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default [4e] Hexes?

    We played 4e last night. I'm reserving judgement on the game until we've played one or two more sessions; there was a lot of fumbling for rules last night. However, something did come to me while playing, and I wanted some other folks' input on it.

    What if, instead of squares, you used hexes for movement and distance? It would solve the problem of diagonal movement, and should work well for other purposes.
    The Cranky Gamer
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
    *Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
    *Savage Scrolls: A Savage Worlds/Elder Scrolls Conversion
    *The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
    Avatar is from local user Mehangel
    Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
    If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2007

    Default Re: [4e] Hexes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    What if, instead of squares, you used hexes for movement and distance? It would solve the problem of diagonal movement, and should work well for other purposes.
    What problem? 4E just isn't set in Euclidic space. The diagonal thing just makes things quicker. That said, I don't see any problems with using hexes. Especially since you don't have to go in a straight line for run and charge. Straight lines are a bit funny on hexes.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Orc in the Playground
     
    LoopyZebra's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    [Enter something witty.]
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e] Hexes?

    It would work well for most purposes. However, you'd have to look closely at AoE attacks, because blast 3 (a 3x3) cannot be directly translated to the hex grid. You'd have to come up with approximate areas for the blasts. Bursts would also cover a lot more ground.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Avatar Samples
    Quote Originally Posted by bosssmiley View Post
    First off LoopyZebra, you win an Internets for:

    The Most Lulz-ish Thread Title Ever Posted
    (By Someone Other than VT)
    In Soviet Russia, PS3 still sucks.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2007

    Default Re: [4e] Hexes?

    Quote Originally Posted by LoopyZebra View Post
    However, you'd have to look closely at AoE attacks, because blast 3 (a 3x3) cannot be directly translated to the hex grid.
    Take a 3x3 diamond instead, it gets a nice conical feel too it aswell. Bursts are actually smaller.

    [edit] A 2-3-4 trapezoid looks good too and is the same size.
    Last edited by fractic; 2008-08-15 at 07:54 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: [4e] Hexes?

    I think that would be an improvement, yes.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Orc in the Playground
     
    LoopyZebra's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    [Enter something witty.]
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e] Hexes?

    Quote Originally Posted by fractic View Post
    Take a 3x3 diamond instead, it gets a nice conical feel too it aswell. Bursts are actually smaller.

    [edit] A 2-3-4 trapezoid looks good too and is the same size.
    You're right. I just remembered 'em being different from when I thought about it a couple of weeks ago.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Avatar Samples
    Quote Originally Posted by bosssmiley View Post
    First off LoopyZebra, you win an Internets for:

    The Most Lulz-ish Thread Title Ever Posted
    (By Someone Other than VT)
    In Soviet Russia, PS3 still sucks.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Librarian in the Playground Moderator
     
    Mark Hall's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e] Hexes?

    Quote Originally Posted by fractic View Post
    What problem? 4E just isn't set in Euclidic space. The diagonal thing just makes things quicker.
    I'm used to Euclidic space. I'm comfy there.
    The Cranky Gamer
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
    *Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
    *Savage Scrolls: A Savage Worlds/Elder Scrolls Conversion
    *The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
    Avatar is from local user Mehangel
    Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
    If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    skywalker's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Knoxville, TN
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e] Hexes?

    Wouldn't it make measuring range easier?

    Like, I want to throw a dagger at that guy but he's not a set number of diagonal squares away?
    I am continuing to have a social life. Sorry for the inconvenience.
    Serious-Jedi-Me-Avatar by RTG0922. Thanks. Cat-assassin-avatar by onasuma, who I was too dumb to thank. Thanks for that too!

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Myatar_Panwar's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    A Tavern, DUH!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e] Hexes?

    I thought 4e already solved this by letting each diagnal movement still count as one square, instead of 1 1/2 or whatever 3e used. Please correct me if i'm wrong, as I've been using this for the past month or so.
    Steam: Foolish Chaos
    Spoiler
    Show
    Freaking awesome TF2 banner by: Pyro

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Troll in the Playground
     
    turkishproverb's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Under a 1st Ed AD&D DMG

    Default Re: [4e] Hexes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myatar_Panwar View Post
    I thought 4e already solved this by letting each diagnal movement still count as one square, instead of 1 1/2 or whatever 3e used. Please correct me if i'm wrong, as I've been using this for the past month or so.
    problem is, some people find that to be a little bit of a cheat, as it moves you theoretically farther or some such. personally, i prefer a hexmap for that reason.
    Avatar by Akirim.Elf
    Spoiler
    Show
    by Akirim.elfKickstarter Avatar by Savannah
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Star Wars canon is one of those things where people have started to realize that the guys in charge are so far off their rockers that it's probably for the best to ignore them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post

    OH GOD THEY'RE COMING! RUN! RUN, TURKISHPROVERB, RUN!

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxios View Post
    GENERIC FLAMING COMMENT, POSSIBLY INVOLVING YOUR MOTHER !

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Myatar_Panwar's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    A Tavern, DUH!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e] Hexes?

    Quote Originally Posted by turkishproverb View Post
    problem is, some people find that to be a little bit of a cheat, as it moves you theoretically farther or some such. personally, i prefer a hexmap for that reason.
    A cheat? Even if the monsters are using the same rules? lolwut? But I guess I can understand, as it does feel odd moving so erratically in combat.

    I have never used hexes before, but have always been interested in it. Maybe it will work easier with 4e than with 3e.
    Steam: Foolish Chaos
    Spoiler
    Show
    Freaking awesome TF2 banner by: Pyro

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2008

    Default Re: [4e] Hexes?

    I am currently playing with a group that uses squares for anytime the party is inside a man-made area (streets, buildings, constructed dungeons, etc.) and hexes the rest of the time (outside, caves, etc.). This actually works really really well. First, it helps distinguish the two types of environments. Secondly, I think hexes are actually a superior system for tactical combat because there is no such thing as a diagonal with hexes.

    For counting distance on a hex grid, imagine point A and point B as opposite ends of a diamond and count the number of hexes along two sides of the diamond. For arbitrating blasts and bursts, the caster selects one hex as the center and then distance to the edge of the aoe is calculated as per the above formulation, giving a "circular" area. It takes some getting used to in order to judge distance and aoe properly, but eventually it becomes just as natural as squares, without the pesky "diagonals count as one" or "one-half" nuisance that any square-based system involves.

    EDIT: This is a 4e game I'm talking about. 3e actually had more realistic rules for diagonals with the "one-half" and cone and blast shapes in the dmg, but it was a pain to count distance sometimes. Hexes + 4e radius rules fix that.
    Last edited by Edge of Dreams; 2008-08-16 at 01:24 AM.
    I spent an hour on the edge of dreams,
    I walked between the worlds,
    and when I woke I never knew
    to which side I had fallen

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e] Hexes?

    Quote Originally Posted by turkishproverb View Post
    problem is, some people find that to be a little bit of a cheat, as it moves you theoretically farther or some such. personally, i prefer a hexmap for that reason.
    But then you have the hilarious image of everyone charging at each other by running in diagonal lines. "I GET THERE FASTER THIS WAY!"

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Librarian in the Playground Moderator
     
    Mark Hall's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e] Hexes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myatar_Panwar View Post
    A cheat? Even if the monsters are using the same rules? lolwut? But I guess I can understand, as it does feel odd moving so erratically in combat.

    I have never used hexes before, but have always been interested in it. Maybe it will work easier with 4e than with 3e.
    It's not a cheat, but I would find it easier, conceptually, to deal with hexes. Square ABCD is longer AC or BD than it is AB, BC, CD, or DA. Therefore, moving AC to AC to AC is longer than BC to BC to BC.
    The Cranky Gamer
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
    *Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
    *Savage Scrolls: A Savage Worlds/Elder Scrolls Conversion
    *The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
    Avatar is from local user Mehangel
    Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
    If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    JaxGaret's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    NYC

    Default Re: [4e] Hexes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge of Dreams View Post
    I am currently playing with a group that uses squares for anytime the party is inside a man-made area (streets, buildings, constructed dungeons, etc.) and hexes the rest of the time (outside, caves, etc.). This actually works really really well. First, it helps distinguish the two types of environments. Secondly, I think hexes are actually a superior system for tactical combat because there is no such thing as a diagonal with hexes.
    I just read this suggestion elsewhere recently, it sounds like a great idea. I'm definitely thinking about adopting it for my games.
    You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist. - Friedrich Nietzsche

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: [4e] Hexes?

    Quote Originally Posted by turkishproverb View Post
    problem is, some people find that to be a little bit of a cheat, as it moves you theoretically farther or some such. personally, i prefer a hexmap for that reason.
    Well, it's the same thing as that diagonal-running in most FPS games makes you move 1.4 times faster (square root of two). There, it's not a cheat per se but a fancy trick for uber players and speed runners.

    The point is that it makes it easier to get around obstacles, which some people may find undesirable. Also, a fireball's blast area can be expected to be circular (because, you know, explosions are circular in pretty much every other game I could think of) and "all hexes around a central tile" resembles a circle more closely than a 3x3 square.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location

    Default Re: [4e] Hexes?

    4e secretly takes place in the Far Realms, which is why the geometry is non-euclidean.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Midwest, not Middle East
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e] Hexes?

    One difference between hexes and squares is that the fighter can be surrounded by 8 minions in squares, but only 6 in hexes.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Kiara LeSabre's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Gor, spilling paga again
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: [4e] Hexes?

    The hex idea sounds good to me, provided you're willing to deal with the adaptation challenges as already pointed out.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Titan in the Playground
     
    CarpeGuitarrem's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2008

    Default Re: [4e] Hexes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glimbur View Post
    One difference between hexes and squares is that the fighter can be surrounded by 8 minions in squares, but only 6 in hexes.
    That's a good point. But otherwise, the hexes sound cool.
    Ludicrus Gaming: on games and story | My Steam Account
    Quote Originally Posted by Saph
    Unless everyone's been lying to me and the next bunch of episodes are The Great Divide II, The Great Divide III, Return to the Great Divide, and Bride of the Great Divide, in which case I hate you all and I'm never touching Avatar again.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Sep 2007

    Default Re: [4e] Hexes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glimbur View Post
    One difference between hexes and squares is that the fighter can be surrounded by 8 minions in squares, but only 6 in hexes.
    This is why I've chosen to keep the square grid map offered by the rules even though a hex grid is much more logical and intuitive. I considered that this might be only a minor tactical advantage to the NPCs (the players are not likely to have 8 persons available to fully surround an opponent) but decided that this advantage should not be taken away without cause.
    --
    Cheers,
    Kompera

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    London, England.

    Default Re: [4e] Hexes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glimbur View Post
    One difference between hexes and squares is that the fighter can be surrounded by 8 minions in squares, but only 6 in hexes.
    I think this is a good thing, personally. It's pretty silly having eight creatures with non-reach weapons all somehow managing to hit the same target without getting in each other's way. (Even six is pushing it.)

    - Saph
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and Book #9 in the series, Marked, is out as of July 2018. For updates, check my blog!

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Chicago/Boston
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e] Hexes?

    Hexes are a better system for representing distance - most wargames and such have been using them for decades. The problem with them in DnD, though, is you are frequently fighting inside enclosed spaces (dungeons, etc.) with rectangular rooms, and trying to lay a hex grid over a rectangular space gets very messy. You tend to end up with a lot of partial hexes, and you have to come up with some sort of system for determining which of them (if any) can actually be occupied.

    Fortunately, this isn't too much of a problem with 4e, since 4e tends to assume you are fighting in fairly large spaces with plenty of room to maneuver. In that sort of situation, you can usually just ignore the partial hexes around the very edges of the battle and be none the worse for wear.
    Recent Homebrew Projects:
    The Somaturge - Base Class
    Reaper - Template.
    Modular Races - Rules variant

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •