Arena Tournament, Round 34: Lumi vs. Drago vs. Cyn vs. Chili IV

[Kyeudo]

Very mavianesque. Let's get this game going then.

[stupnick]

Cyn

Standing in Z14, i will activate my feather token in my square, which now puts me in z14 +60ft, i do believe because of the diameter at the top i would have complete cover relating to all of you

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i will drop my javalins on top of the tree. to be recovered at a later time.
climb down into the tree to gain total cover against everyone.
(1d20+9)[18]
i will be at Z11, +55 ft

A token that causes a great oak to spring into being (5-foot diameter trunk, 60-foot height, 40-foot top diameter). This is an instantaneous effect.

stats

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Location Z11/+55ft
HP: 30
AC: 10 T: 7 F: 11

[Morbius]

I am not sure that you would have total cover stupnick... I would think you would get cover from the trunk and concealment from the leaves, I will need to look at my books later to be sure...

But since we are on the rules interpretation topic we all agre that antitoxin works on the sleepsmoke DC right? (at least chile already did agree on that)

[chilepepper]

Sleepsmoke is listed as a poison and follows all the characteristics of a poison. Antitoxin gives +5 fort against poison.

And I agree about the tree. The trunk is listed as a diameter, therefore it does not have hard corners. That would make it soft cover.

As for the top of the tree, common sense would say you can see through the foliage and it too would only provide soft cover, but RAW isn't always common sense. An interesting tactic though, looking forward to seeing how this gets ruled.

[Morbius]

Now.. the real question is what happens to a guy holding on a tree branch at 60 feet high that suddenly is target of a sleep spell...

[Talic]

High Ref Talic

Statistics for a 60 foot oak don't exist in RAW, to the best of my knowledge. Which brings us to ruling what exactly a tree is. Sigh.

Thus, if everyone has no objections:

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1) Trunk provides Cover.
2) Upper Foliage provides Cover, as per a web spell, with approximately the same area of effect. (20 ft radius = 40 foot diameter). This means that 5 feet of upper foliage will provide cover, and 20 feet will provide total cover.

Web seems to be the closest similar effect I can find to solid objects which do not provide total cover, but still have the potential to block shots.

Soft cover, as listed in the SRD, applies to creatures. While I think it would normally be a good thought, the upper branches of a tree have branches, which are solid wood, and ostensibly must be stood on to prevent falling. Such branches seem about in line with cover.

Does this seem accurate/appropriate?

And weigh ins from both players and refs is welcomed.

[Kyeudo]

I just want to know the Climb DC of that tree.

EDIT: And does that cover bonus apply in reverse?

[Morbius]

From the SRD:


Trees
The most important terrain element in a forest is the trees, obviously. A creature standing in the same square as a tree gains a +2 bonus to Armor Class and a +1 bonus on Reflex saves (these bonuses don’t stack with cover bonuses from other sources). The presence of a tree doesn’t otherwise affect a creature’s fighting space, because it’s assumed that the creature is using the tree to its advantage when it can. The trunk of a typical tree has AC 4, hardness 5, and 150 hp. A DC 15 Climb check is sufficient to climb a tree. Medium and dense forests have massive trees as well. These trees take up an entire square and provide cover to anyone behind them. They have AC 3, hardness 5, and 600 hp. Like their smaller counterparts, it takes a DC 15 Climb check to climb them.

[Talic]

I would say that it applies both ways. I've looked through trees from the top and the bottom, and yup, branches block view both ways.

[Kyeudo]

Since that's settled, I believe it is Chilepepper's turn.

[chilepepper]

I'm confused about the tree, but that's okay, I'll just burn it down when the time comes.

((edit:Oh, I misdrew my tent, it should be in the 1 column per my post))

Round 2 - Chile

So, I'm pretty sure no one can see me, but just in case, I'll format my spoilers to account for that possibility.

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Read from my scroll
refs only

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Invisibility.
CL (1d20+1)[21] (sweet, confirming crit [roll... oh wait)
Wisdom (1d20)[3]

I disappear.

Not done.

refs only

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Move north to F1. Hide (if needed, a ref can roll this for me, since it's after an edit, it'll be broken if I roll it, +22)

stats

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HP: 7/7
AC: 17 t15 f12
Effects: See Invisibility 2/300
Invis 1/30
Position: F1, hiding

Spells: 5W,5S / 4W,4S / Ice Knife
Scroll: True Strike, Shield, Invis, Invis, Invis, See Invis, Exp Retreat

Done. Lumi's turn.

[Morbius]

Cyn

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Don't post your actions yet, I am delaying my turn, but Drago doesn't need to know about that

Lumi 2nd to act - round 2

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Delay turn to act after Drago but before Cyn

Done


Lumi stats (refs only)

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Location: G14
HP: 14/14
Speed: 30 ft.
AC: 14, Touch 14, Flat-footed 10
Saves: Fortitude +0, Reflex +4, Will +2
Attacks: -4 Scythe(2D4-1)/x4, +5 alchemist fire
Held: 2x invisibility scroll , 4x alchemist fire, 1x silent image scroll, Manacles w/ simple lock, Chronocharm otUA 1/1, 2x CLW potions, Lightning gauntlets 4/4, 2x Scroll of see invisibility, 1x vial of antitoxin
Effects: invisibility 19/20
Spells: 6x 0-level , 6x 1st-level, 0x 2nd level
Reactive rolls:
spot - (1d20+6)[25]
listen - (1d20+6)[18]

[Kyeudo]

Drago

Draw and drink another potion. 5-ft step to M16. End of turn.

Stats:

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Hp: 17/17
AC: 25 Touch: 15
Saves: Fort+7 Ref+3 Will+7
Location: M16

Buffs
Owl's Wisdom 29/30
Shield of Faith 10/10

Essentia Allocation
Shedu Crown: 2
Rageclaws: 1
Wormtail Belt: 1
Dissolving Spittle:
Cerulean Will: 1

[Morbius]

My two non stats spoilers on my post above are public for anyone now

Hummm this match is not going as I expected... but let's see what I can do about that


Lumi 2nd to act - round 2(cont)

Lumi casts a spell

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casting message on Drago and then moves silently to G8
MS - (1d20+3)[17]

spellcraft DC 15 to anyone that wants to know what I am casting:

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casting message

Drago

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You hear a little voice on your head:
Oh come on, what are you two waiting for, just go in that tent there and what whack that guy already...

anyone else may make a listen check DC 22(at least) to read this

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You hear Lumi whispering:
Oh come on, what are you two waiting for, just go in that tent there and what whack that guy already...

Done


Lumi stats (refs only)

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Location: G8
HP: 14/14
Speed: 30 ft.
AC: 14, Touch 14, Flat-footed 10
Saves: Fortitude +0, Reflex +4, Will +2
Attacks: -4 Scythe(2D4-1)/x4, +5 alchemist fire
Held: 2x invisibility scroll , 4x alchemist fire, 1x silent image scroll, Manacles w/ simple lock, Chronocharm otUA 1/1, 2x CLW potions, Lightning gauntlets 4/4, 2x Scroll of see invisibility, 1x vial of antitoxin
Effects: invisibility 18/20
Spells: 5x 0-level , 6x 1st-level, 0x 2nd level
Reactive rolls:
listen - (1d20+6)[26]
spot - (1d20+6)[22]

[stupnick]

Cyn


Actions

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i will take a move action to move back to z14, taking 10 on climb check for 18
I will hide where I am
(1d20-2)[4]

stats

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Location Z18/+55ft
HP: 30
AC: 10 T: 7 F: 11

[chilepepper]

Spellcraft (1d20+11)[20]

Lumi, refs

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I have See Invisiblity up.

What is your position?
Who did you point at when you cast message?

Oh and, DC 22 what?

[Morbius]

Spellcraft [roll0]

Lumi, refs

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I have See Invisiblity up.

What is your position?
Who did you point at when you cast message?

Oh and, DC 22 what?

Chile

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my bad it was a 22 DC listen check, fixed it now

Hey I don't remember you taking silent spell, how are you casting spells whitout granting at least listen checks? AFAIK a little tent is not a large stone wall

and if you are out of your tent

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Lumi was on G14 when he casted and now he is at G8 and the spell was directed to Drago

and Cyn are you sure we don't have LOS to you?

[chilepepper]

refs

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Morbius inquired about listen checks to notice I'm casting spells, which I forgot. So, there's the +15 for through a wall (or multiple walls), +5 for through a door (tent maybe), and +1 per 10' of distance. So that's six listen checks, each at different DCs dependant upon their location relative to the tent. I believe we all have spellcraft trained, so those will need to be rolled as well, for each successful listen check. If anyone passes, they may want a rewind, maybe not.

[stupnick]

it would need to be determained by the ref's.. but if i have 20ft of cover as you said i am total concealed, so no you can't...

[Talic]

High Ref Talic

@Refs:

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2 oversights (castings).

Spell 1 violation - Chile at N1 - See invis. tent cover
Opponents at:
Cyn - Z14 (95, glass wall)
Lumi - A14 (95, glass wall)
Drago - M25 (120, Glass wall)

Spell 2 violation - Chile at N1 - Invis. tent cover.
Opponents at:
Cyn - Z14 +60 (125, foliage)
Lumi - G14 (80, glass wall)
Drago - M17 (75, glass wall)

Ranges are in parentheses, along with any modifiers.

I do believe that glass walls are not up to the DC of stone walls, but they will block sound. This is more in keeping with a door. Effect of the tent is negligible as there is no DC in the listen SRD entry that corresponds to it, even roughly, and I'm not gonna be making one up, Distance will be modified. Base check to hear someone speaking is DC 0.

This means that the following DC's apply

Violation 1:
Cyn: DC 24 (9 distance, 15 wall) (1d20+1)[6]
Lumi: DC 24 (9 distance, 15 wall) (1d20+6)[26]
Drago: DC 27 (12 distance, 15 wall) (1d20+5)[21]

Violation 2:
Cyn: DC 12 (Distance 12, no wall) (1d20+1)[16]
Lumi: DC 23 (Distance 8, Wall 15) (1d20+6)[11]
Drago: DC 22 (Distance 7, Wall 15) (1d20+5)[24]

Before Anything above is official, I want to take the opportunity to post the closest parallels I find to the DC modifiers for listen checks. The DMG does state that basic world principles not outlined in the RAW are assumed to be the same as we know them. It cites the example of a round earth. Based on this, I can't reconcile glass walls to have the same DC modifiers as stone walls. The closest parallel I see is a door. Any objections to this?

@EDIT: Regardless of whether the DC modifier of glass if objected to and later agreed on as +15 modifier or +5, there may need to be a rewind of the match. Possible information that could impact match decisions has been denied to players. Once the impact of the above has been hashed out, then we'll figure out exactly what needs to be done, in terms of rewinds, and continuations.

[chilepepper]

I vote DC 15 since the glass wall, like a stone wall, is a solid contiguous obstacle unlike a door which is not a contiguous piece. Plus, if we're pulling real world equivalents, there is such a thing as sound proof glass, and this particular glass wall has more hit points than it would if it were plain ordinary glass. Whatever Talic decides, though, is fine with me.

refs

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BTW

A successful Listen check allows you to tell the general
location of or direction to the sound. If understanding the
actual content of a sound is important, beating the DC by 10
allows you to do so, assuming you can otherwise understand
that content. Beating the DC by 20 allows you to pinpoint
where a sound is coming from.

They don't get a spellcraft, or even know it's a spell, unless they beat it by 10. They just hear me talking.

[Talic]

Sound proof glass isn't the same as glass. The arena states glass. I'll give others the chance to weigh in on it with their thoughts. Either way, I will need followup information from multiple players before determining how much information that needs to be relayed.

[Kyeudo]

I'd go with the stone wall interpretation myself. It makes the most sense to me.

[Talic]

Ok, going with +15.

@Lumi:

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In Chile's 1st turn (post 18), you would have heard speech from the general area of the last place you saw him. Would this have changed or affected any action you took?

@Cyn:

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In Chile's 2nd turn, you would have heard speech from the general vicinity of the tent. Would this have changed or affected any action you took?

@Drago:

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In Chile's 2nd turn, you would have heard speech from the general vicinity of the tent. Would this have changed or affected any action you took?

[stupnick]

@refs

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nope not at all

[Morbius]

refs

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(sigh) no changes

[Kyeudo]

Refs

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Nope. Him talking is just another reason for me to run him over.

If he was casting a spell and I heard him well enough to make out what he was saying:
Spellcraft check:(1d20+4)[11]
Nevermind, don't bother figuring that out.

You know, we use an aweful lot of spoilers for fighting in a glass arena.

[chilepepper]

Assuming we're not rewinding, the current order is
Chile
Drago
Lumi
Cyn
It's my turn in the top of round 3. I'm just waiting for the okay from a ref.

[Talic]

@Kyeudo:

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Listen checks were not enough to identify words.

No rewind required. Continue as normal. Glad to help.

[chilepepper]

Round 3 - Chile's turn

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Move to A1, cast Launch Item with sleepsmoke at F8/G9. (1d20+5)[12] only miss on a 1.
Miss (1d8)[2] - 1 is NW

A cloud of Sleepsmoke spreads, covering F8/G9.

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Lumi needs to attempt a DC15 fort save; failure = fall unconscious for 10 rounds.

Chile then becomes visible in A1, holding a scroll.

stats

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HP: 7/7
AC: 17 t15 f12
Effects: See Invisibility 2/300
Invis 1/30
Position: A1

Spells: 5W,4S / 4W,4S / Ice Knife
Scroll: True Strike, Shield, Invis, Invis, Invis, See Invis, Exp Retreat

Done. Drago's turn.