Decreasing Enemy Will Save

[Fraggranark]

I've got a Wilder who focuses on enhancing and surging his Mind Thrust in combat, so I was wondering if anyone knew of ways to decrease for force penalties on enemy Will saves. Plus it would help with several other powers he's gained with Expanded Knowledge.

[gdiddy]

Easy: Bestow Curse. -4 to saves and attacks.

[sofawall]

Do you want something you yourself can do?

[Fraggranark]

Our party is a human Children of Winter Druid, a human Crusader, a Warforged Artificer and my Wilder. Wands and other magical devices could be used by the Warforged, or anything like poisons would be useful. So, something that any of the party could use, since we all agree that my Wild Surged Mind Thrust is the single most powerful attack we have.

[Superglucose]

Easy: Bestow Curse. -4 to saves and attacks.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/touchofIdiocy.htm

That'll do it too. Or http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedwish.htm

[Tyrmatt]

Crushing Despair should also help if memory serves.

[Fraggranark]

Thanks for that, a Touch of Idiocy or Crushing Despair wand would be helpful.

[Myrmex]

Two levels in Paladin of Tyranny gives you an aura that makes people take -2 to saves.

Negative levels will weaken saves, too. A wand of enervate would be costly.

[peacenlove]

Also the Coersive spell metamagic feat (For a +1 spell level increase) inflicts a -2 penalty to will saves to all the targets damaged by your spell (it lasts 3 rounds). From Drow of the Underdark.

[PhoenixRivers]

Is there a particular reason you're going with Mind Thrust instead of Ego Whip? The latter is usually superior in most ways.

It targets an area that's almost always much lower (Cha vs HP).
It has an effect on a failed save (Will half).
It has the potential to capture enemies without killing them. Alternately, there's coup de grace if you do indeed want them dead. I recommend carrying a heavy pick wherever you go.

[ericgrau]

Mind fog gives a -10 and it affects multiple opponents, so one is bound to fail. Just target the opponent that looks like he's having trouble making DC 0 spot and listen checks.

Otherwise beware of lowering the enemy's will save with an effect that allows a will save. You may be better off just casting the spell you actually want to hit him with then. I still say mind fog since again it's an area so someone will likely fail and because it's such a huge penalty. Heck follow it up with another AoE will save like glitterdust.

EDIT: Oh, whoops, psion.

[Fraggranark]

Well, my Wilder isn't concerned with capturing enemies so the sheer amount of damage a Mind Thrust is my preferred way smashing enemies. The Mind Fog spell seems to be the most promising one here, though these are all very helpful for when we don't want to risk weakening ourselves. So long as the Warforged uses the wand, it leaves my turn to hit the enemies.

Keep in mind that we don't have any direct Arcane Spell-Casters, only Druidic Spells, Infusions and Psionic Powers. Of course, any spells can hopefully be replicated by the Artificer making a wand of it. Since we just got leveled up he has a full Craft Reserve.

[Mando Knight]

Well, my Wilder isn't concerned with capturing enemies so the sheer amount of damage a Mind Thrust is my preferred way smashing enemies.

Ego Whip kills faster: by turning the opponent helpless and dealing Cha damage even when saved against, it allows you to coup-de-grace every round until the guy's dead. By picking a decently large critical weapon (like a pick or scythe), you can kill off anyone you don't want to capture.

[Fraggranark]

I suppose that would be useful when working with the Crusader, as he can and has used either manuver or stance (not sure which) to increase my Iniatitve and then hold his action until after my turn next round. Of course, for catching enemies I have Psionic Blast. Other then Mind Thrust and Energy Ray, most of my focus power-wise is to things useful in more then combat, such as Levitation (which saved my life twice in the first session after I got it and has continued to be extremely helpful) and when I can, Dimension Door. If I really need something else I use the Expanded Knowledge feat to get it. My Wilder is one of the least subtle characters you'll ever meet.

[Lycanthromancer]

The biggest issue with mind thrust is that the damage is both unreliable and the average damage dealt is so low (Will save negates is bad). Ego whip is vastly better, considering that it's Will half, it's ability damage, and the only creatures that don't have it as a dump stat are crippled when their Cha is damaged (ie, sorcerers). It also works really well when metapsionic'd.

As for the original topic, consider ways to boost yourself, as well. Midnight Augmentation (from Magic of Incarnum) and Earth Power let you spend more pp in augmentation, as does Metapower (from CPsionic; it's specific to a single metapsionic feat though - choose Empower Power to Empower for the cost of your psi. focus...still better with ego whip though). Also, Greater/Psionic Endowment.

[Milskidasith]

Plus, even if you ignore Ego Whip, Mind Thrust still only deals 1 more damage per ML than the energy ray line. And those are either hard to avoid (RTA, so it's hard to miss) or save halves for AoEs (if it's a rogue, hit them with cold damage. If they've got evasion and mettle, then... eh, you're kind of messed up with any save granting spell.)

Also, Ego Whip isn't really that powerful until you can get to ML 11; 1d4 charisma damage sucks, 2d4 cha damage is, while good, not enough to drop in one hit, but 3d4 is more likely to kill, and 4d4 or 5d4 are going to cripple anybody.

[PhoenixRivers]

Actually, at Character level 9, it becomes viable.

This is the level you get Anticipatory Strike, allowing you to take 2 turns of actions.

In addition, with 2 feats (Overchannel + Talented), you can be ML 11 at psion 9.

That's 3d4 Cha, and, if you really need it, another 3d4 right after it. Before you sweat 3d8 damage, note that a Vigor augmented to 3 pp will give you 15 temp HP. If you manifest it to 9, it's 45 bonus hp.

Now 6d4 averages 15 Cha. Not many things in the MM (or out of it) can take that without hurting bad. Even if they pass both, you've got them in range of death.

It disregards level. People don't get more cha as they level, like they do HP. A dire lion and a commoner are equally easy to ego whip.

[deuxhero]

I'm guessing you would prefer the method didn't require a will save?

[good_lookin_gus]

Fear effects and the sickened condition impose a -2 penalty. Of course, fear effects usually require a failed Will save to begin with, unless you use intimidate

[Myrmex]

The biggest issue with mind thrust is that the damage is both unreliable and the average damage dealt is so low (Will save negates is bad). Ego whip is vastly better, considering that it's Will half, it's ability damage, and the only creatures that don't have it as a dump stat are crippled when their Cha is damaged (ie, sorcerers). It also works really well when metapsionic'd.

But it's not nearly as cool as making someone's head explode by just staring at them.

[Fraggranark]

But it's not nearly as cool as making someone's head explode by just staring at them.

Yes, that basically why I use it plus it gives me the chance to be honest when I threaten to blast someones brain out their backside. So far its been extremely useful. I understand fully that the risk is quite high, which is exactly why made this, so I could find a way to make it easier.

[Lycanthromancer]

My psionic powers revision has mind thrust do just that (ie, headsplode), if you spend an extra pp or your psionic focus when you manifest it (assuming you drop them to zilch hp). It's also "Will: Partial" and deals 2 hp per pp on a successful save.

At least it's something.

[Sinfire Titan]

Paladin of Tyranny 2/Hexblade 4 (subbing familiar for Dark Companion)/Binder 4/Blackguard 10 with Insane Defiance from Elder Evils. Have him move within 10ft of the enemy, target him with a Mind-Affecting power, and then have him shunt it to the actual target. They get -12 to the save, no save against that penalty (-2 for PoT, -2 for Hexblade levels, -2 for one of the Binder's Vestiges, -2 for Blackguard levels, -4 for Insane Defiance).

[jiriku]

Ray of sickness inflicts sickness with no save. Sickness imposes a -2 to all saves.

The fell frightening metamagic feat inflicts shaken on any opponent damaged by the spell. A fell frightening magic missile at CL 9 would inflict shaken on up to 5 enemies at once with no save. The shaken condition also applies -2 to all saves.

The black lore of moil metamagic feat causes a necromancy effect to deal damage, thus qualifying it for fell frighten. My necromancer makes good use of fell frightening moilian ray of sickness to inflict -4 to attacks, saves, and skill checks with no saving throw. It's a good debuff for boss monsters.

[Dimers]

How about actual sickness, rather than the "sickened" condition? The druid can cast contagion, for d6 Wisdom damage immediately.

EDIT: Nice combo, Jiriku. And I assume you only spend 25 gp for increased damage, since the save penalty is the point?