Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide [3.x]

[Emperor Tippy]

Honestly, if you're going to use Chaos Shuffle, you might as well just turn into Pun-Pun and grant yourself any power you want. Even if its place on the curve isn't quite as high, Chaos Shuffle is pretty much beyond the pale for any actual use.

I mean, if we're talking TO, sure, but I assume this guide is for builds you might use in an actual game.

I've never had a DM ban Chaos Shuffle in play, barring really out there things (starting at level 20 in gestalt with Fighter on one side and VoP so I could get an extra 22 feats for example). Granted, I haven't used it in some games because it just doesn't fit with my character.

And Pun-Pun is far, far worse than Chaos Shuffle. Spontaneous Divination is worse than it as well. And that 5th level Cleric spell that lets you count a roll as a natural 20 is worse. And thought bottles. And lots of other things.

[Akimbo]

@Chronos

1) Your over reliance on sleight of hand in combat is rather silly, especially given that there are actual rules for doing those things in combat, they are under the disarm section.

You should maybe suggest something else to do in combat, you know, anything that isn't using an intended OOC skill to accomplish acts that already have rules somewhere else.

Some people's guides (TLN and Solo) lend themselves to actually being used in games, others (Giamoco and your sleight of hand as primary weapon system) don't.

Judging by your title, I'd guess that you would rather be in the first category.

2) Everything I said about Sleight of Hand, apply it to super invulnerable Hide checks of no possibility of ever getting seen by anyone.

3) One thing I'd actually hoped for with a skillmonkey guide is a compilation (or at least of the most useful ones) of all the little extra tricks added to skills in non-core books.

Races of the Wild has some, probably Complete Adventurer, in fact, lots of books do. Perhaps you could find time to go back through your books for those?

[CASTLEMIKE]

Skill points are nice but a Factotum 1 with 20 int (18+2 from grey elf) can max 11 skills. And with Cunning Knowledge and Brains Over Brawn you really don't have to max most skills. Put one point in every skill so you can use Cunning Knowledge when you really need to make a check and then you are pretty much set.

This is the skillmonkey guide.

How many Int - 20 grey elves are really going to do anything except dip Factotum - 1 with Wizard - 19 or Factotum - 3, Wizard - 17 instead of becoming Wizards one of the most powerful classes and the Elven favored class unless the multiclassing rules are not used? (Strong gestalting Factotum with Wizard)

Factotum -1 or 3 or 5 or 8 and 19 (if you are staying past Factotum -8) are the primary capstone points for the Factotum class IMO.

Sure Cunning Knowledge and Brains over Brawn are nice at Factotum -3 the Changeling Rogue -1, Factotum -3 won't gain that for another level at L4.

[Emperor Tippy]

Grey Elves make some of the best skill monkeys as well. And especially good Factotums. And it gets even better if your DM allows you to take Faerie Mysteries Initiate (you can dump con).

[Emperor Tippy]

2) Everything I said about Sleight of Hand, apply it to super invulnerable Hide checks of no possibility of ever getting seen by anyone.

Actually not really. With Darkstalker, a Greater Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, and a Minor Cloak of Displacement one can hide at any time and pretty much everything without Mindsight has to make a spot check to find you. So at level 20 (going Factotum 19/Swordsage 1), with an Int of 30 and a Dex of 26, the person trying to find you has to hit a minimum DC of 42 to spot you (and thats without a masterwork tool or any other boosts). If you use Cunning Knowledge that goes up by 19 points. Throw in Skill Mastery for another 9 points.

[Jack_Simth]

Grey Elves make some of the best skill monkeys as well. And especially good Factotums. And it gets even better if your DM allows you to take Faerie Mysteries Initiate (you can dump con).

That doesn't help your Fort save any; just your hit points.

[Akimbo]

Actually not really. With Darkstalker, a Greater Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, and a Minor Cloak of Displacement one can hide at any time and pretty much everything without Mindsight has to make a spot check to find you. So at level 20 (going Factotum 19/Swordsage 1), with an Int of 30 and a Dex of 26, the person trying to find you has to hit a minimum DC of 42 to spot you (and thats without a masterwork tool or any other boosts). If you use Cunning Knowledge that goes up by 19 points. Throw in Skill Mastery for another 9 points.

I am well aware that you can do that by the rules. You can also accomplish the same thing by casting Superior Invisibility/Ghostform/Mindblank/Non-detection, +/- a few spells depending on various DM rulings, as you well know.

My point is solely that such a character is too perfect for 95% of games. Yes, such a strategy is fine for a Rogue in a party of Druid (or Planar Shepard)/Incantatrix/DMM Persist Cleric 5/PrC 5/Contemplative 10.

It also doesn't fit in a guide that dissuades use of Font of Inspiration, any pays homage to Solo's Sorcerer Guide.

[Emperor Tippy]

That doesn't help your Fort save any; just your hit points.

Yep. But saves can be boosted easier than you can get HP based off of something else.

I am well aware that you can do that by the rules. You can also accomplish the same thing by casting Superior Invisibility/Ghostform/Mindblank/Non-detection, +/- a few spells depending on various DM rulings, as you well know.

My point is solely that such a character is too perfect for 95% of games. Yes, such a strategy is fine for a Rogue in a party of Druid (or Planar Shepard)/Incantatrix/DMM Persist Cleric 5/PrC 5/Contemplative 10.

It also doesn't fit in a guide that dissuades use of Font of Inspiration, any pays homage to Solo's Sorcerer Guide.

Um, no. It fits just fine in a guide for how to play a skill monkey. It isn't to perfect.

[Akimbo]

Um, no. It fits just fine in a guide for how to play a skill monkey. It isn't to perfect.

Any character that starts with the assumption, "The DM must own Lords of Madness, have looked under that one race that was created for the book, and then discovered the Mindsight feat and has since started applying it to other characters/creatures for me to ever take any damage at all from anything ever."

Is too perfect for 95% of games.In fact, it's definitionaly too perfect for any game where the DM does not use Lords of Madness.

[Emperor Tippy]

Anyone with a spot check who can beat your hide check can do it.

[Thurbane]

Quoth Thurbane:Archivist seems a lot more like a cross between a wizard and a cleric, than a skillmonkey, to me. The only skills they're particularly good at are the knowledge skills, which are usually a wizard's forte.

Just as an aside, has anyone created a Knowledge Monkey guide yet? I'd sure be interested in that, too...

[Emperor Tippy]

@Akimbo
A very old Red Dragon (CR 21) has 31 HD and an unmodified wisdom of 23. With max ranks in spot it gets +40 on its check. In fact a large number of the CR 20+ monsters have enough HD to at least give them a chance of spotting you. And remember, they get another roll every time you take an action pretty much.

[Akimbo]

@Akimbo
A very old Red Dragon (CR 21) has 31 HD and an unmodified wisdom of 23. With max ranks in spot it gets +40 on its check. In fact a large number of the CR 20+ monsters have enough HD to at least give them a chance of spotting you. And remember, they get another roll every time you take an action pretty much.

So we compare that to Int 36, Dex 26-30, 23 ranks, +10 Competence minimum, +8-12 Racial depending on race, and +8 size.

So we get: +40 vs +56 with only a +10 competence bonus. Add in +20 that you can also get pre epic, or bother to optimize it at all, or get skill mastery to take 10 and the dragon can just go cry.

And that's CR 21.

[Emperor Tippy]

The Dragon can optimize as well.

[FMArthur]

But not realistically. The DM starts having to design every encounter to challenge this one player, and breaks the campaign world's consistency.

[Emperor Tippy]

But not realistically. The DM starts having to design every encounter to challenge this one player, and breaks the campaign world's consistency.

Sorry but at levels 15+ everything you face should be optimized (possibly excluding casters). And no, nothing has to be designed to challenge this player. He is not a full caster, by its very definition he is weak sauce.

Factotums are nice and make the best skill monkeys, they might even be the best non full caster in the game, but they are still weak. The wizard can cast Superior Invisibility + Mindblank and be completely undetectable to everything that the Factotum can hide from. 2 spells vs. an investment of several thousand gold, 20+ skill points, and 20 levels. The wizard can do it with 2 spells.

[Chronos]

Quoth Akimbo:

1) Your over reliance on sleight of hand in combat is rather silly, especially given that there are actual rules for doing those things in combat, they are under the disarm section.

Did you miss the part where I said you want to avoid combat if at all possible? One of the reasons for that is so you can keep using Sleight of Hand. So, for instance, you might have something like the thief sneaking ahead, stealing the evil cleric's holy symbol, bringing it back to the party, and then everyone going in and beating up the villain. Sure, the thief will do some damage in the fight, but his real contribution was made before initiative was rolled.

[Aquillion]

Regarding Slight of Hand for stealing objects from people, note that the rules are as follows:

If you try to take something from another creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to obtain it. The opponent makes a Spot check to detect the attempt, opposed by the same Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item.

Several observations. First, and most importantly: The opponent's spot check does not let them protect their item; it merely lets them know you took it. If you have 20 ranks in Slight of Hand, per RAW you can always and without fail lift the wizard's spell component pouch; their spot check is just to see whether they realize you took it or not. (Although honestly, if a wizard lets people just walk up to them, they sort of deserve this. If you can sneak up to the enemy wizard before the battle begins... why not just put a dagger in their lungs instead? Also, what options are there for using slight of hand to take items at range?)

Second, there is no mention of 'unsecured' items there. Whether securing an item actually helps and how much the victim has to do is entirely up to DM fiat.

Third, while the text gives no guidelines as to what sort of items you can take, the table says that the DC 20 check is for lifting a 'small' item. Additionally, taking weapons requires a DC 50 check, so you can safely say you can't take them with a DC 20 check (of course, optimizing for a DC 50 check is perfectly possible.)

3) One thing I'd actually hoped for with a skillmonkey guide is a compilation (or at least of the most useful ones) of all the little extra tricks added to skills in non-core books.

Races of the Wild has some, probably Complete Adventurer, in fact, lots of books do. Perhaps you could find time to go back through your books for those?

Crystal Keep has the list you're looking for, in PDF format. No need to duplicate it here, although perhaps some of the most useful and important ones to a skillmonkey could be noted.

[Heliomance]

Is there a build that lies in effectiveness somewhere between the core-only build and the level-dipping cheese fest that is the Dungeon Delver build?

Also, the trouble with Factotum is that until level 18 or so, it grants you precisely nothing in the way of combat effectiveness. Yes, you can be a good skillmonkey with it. But the trouble is, there are times when you can't avoid combat, and at those times your poor little skillmonkey is going to be hiding in a corner going "pleasedon'thurtmepleasedon'thurtme".

[PurinaDragonCho]

Open Lock maxes at 42 and is Dex based, meaning that you want to be able to hit that DC naked for absolute safety. But you can take 20 so 22 ranks is enough. Which you can easily get with 30 Int, 24 Dex, and 5 ranks.

So, what's the secret to getting 30 Int and 24 Dex? My 12th level Rogue/Archivist is pretty awesome, but he has nowhere near the gold required to boost stats that high.

[Heliomance]

Grey Elf, Gloves of Dex +4, Headband of Intellect +6, Tome of Clear Thought +4? That should be affordable by 12th level, I think. Just.

[PurinaDragonCho]

Grey Elf, Gloves of Dex +4, Headband of Intellect +6, Tome of Clear Thought +4? That should be affordable by 12th level, I think. Just.

I didn't mean to sound snarky, and probably did... but theoretical stuff is one thing and practical stuff is another. I don't have the money to buy that kind of gear. In fact, in the three different campaigns I've played in in the past couple of years, with 3 different DMs, I've never had the money to buy that kind of gear. I merely wanted to make the point that not every player can just open the DMG and the MIC and get whatever they want out of it, not even stuff suitable for their level.

[Aquillion]

Also, the trouble with Factotum is that until level 18 or so, it grants you precisely nothing in the way of combat effectiveness. Yes, you can be a good skillmonkey with it. But the trouble is, there are times when you can't avoid combat, and at those times your poor little skillmonkey is going to be hiding in a corner going "pleasedon'thurtmepleasedon'thurtme".

The usual solution to this is to take Iaijutsu Focus, although that's usually something you'd want to run by your DM first (at least, to ensure that the relevant book is being used.)

Another option is to focus on UMD, FoI abuse, and taking extra actions. Throwing around a bunch of carefully-chosen low- to mid-level effects in one turn can be useful enough to give you something to do, even if it's not overwhelming. If you want, you can even take Metamagic Spell Trigger and spam multiple twinned maximized empowered rays that ignore DR and SR and, eventually, you'll be able to add sneak attack to. (Although you'll have to take metamagic feats, too, so this is a bit of an investment.)

[Paramour Pink]

Speaking from the voice of inexperience here, do secret corrodors/sections ever come up in games? Just asking as search encomposes finding them, ad elves get a free chance to pick up one one. Even in dungeon crawls, I can't imagine a DM actually using them. They're like diseases; they exist in the game, but the chances of them being used are unlikely...right?

[Human Paragon 3]

Can you prove that unalliterative is a word?

[Partysan]

Just a small comment: Martial Study does not only grant a maneuver, but makes that maneuver's discipline's key skill a class skill for you - maybe of some interest, if we are talking about skillmonkeys.

[woodenbandman]

Child of Shadow specifically disallows Hide in Plain Sight.

[Chronos]

Child of Shadow specifically disallows Hide in Plain Sight.

Or rather, it doesn't grant it-- If you have Hide in Plain Sight from some other source, there's no reason you couldn't combine it with Child of Shadow.

But the key here is that there are two different conditions you normally need in order to hide: First, you need to have cover or concealment, and second, nobody can be watching you while you do it. Hide in Plain Sight removes the second condition (and sometimes the first, but that depends on what version of HiPS you have), so a character with HiPS who has concealment can hide even if someone's watching. Child of Shadow doesn't give HiPS, but it does give concealment, so you can still use Child of Shadow to hide, as long as nobody's watching you try to do it. This would be useful, for instance, if you're already hidden before an encounter, so nobody's watching you: Child of Shadow would allow you to stay hidden during the encounter.

And Paramour Pink, I've never seen a dungeon, fortress, or whatever that didn't have secret passageways. Some DMs might not use them, of course, but I've never heard of any sort of taboo on them.

[Heliomance]

As this is a handbook and the primary resource of its type, I hope it's exempt from the necroposting rules. If not, my sincerest apologies.

I was wondering if a stealth-focused character might find a dip into Psychic Warrior to get Compression useful, as dropping two size categories is always helpful for such things as hide and escape artist checks. Thoughts?

[Starbuck_II]

You could add the Lurk to the list as they have a decent list of skills.