Erf 118, Pg 106

[ishnar]

"Help the summon spell fix its goof"
Parson didn't have Leadership. Er, much leadership. Perfect Warlord ...at 2, with a known ceiling of 9? Hell no. Sword +x to Leadership.
Combat. Circle strafing the moon != combat skills (cookie for id'ing the quote). Sword +x to Hack-slash-carve-stabbity-chopchop.

I dunno where you got the idea there was a ceiling of 9. Jillian said she was a 9. But she showed the Caesar guy a lot of respect, and he told her to stack up. Both imply that his is leadership is higher than hers.

As for ruthlessness. What some people seem to be forgetting is that ruthlessness is a negative emotion, not a positive one. It does not add qualities anger/compassion/envy. It removes them. Lack of compassion. Lack of mercy.

Of course there is a second definition "Cruel" which is additive, but cruelty is not the aspect of ruthlessness that serves a warlord. Enjoying dealing suffering leads to inefficiencies.

Then again, Stanley asked for "someone that fights wars for fun!" so maybe got hit with both aspects of the term.

For "Special" I think this now indicates the fact that Parson's stats are hidden until his card is first played.

[Glome]

All that shows is that there are only 3 water hexes in that close up view we had. That does not tell us any facts, there easilly could have been more. Besides, considering that Parson knows they can kill him if they find him, why bother being on the water hex at all? One nuke can kill just as well as a hundred.

True, the lake could be bigger, but from the shots we have of Jillian flying over the lake, it is consistent with the map of it being only three hexes.

As for the water hex, it keeps most forces from being able to attack the dragons if they are found. And Jillian's forces only had a 61% of wiping out the dragons on her own, so it did give the dragons some protection from overwhelming forces.

Also, there is no indication that Jillian spit her force up.
None.
Zip.
She could have done so but all the visual/verbal indicators show that she did nothing of the sort. The reasonable assumption is that she kept all the units in a tight formation and you KNOW IT. You're grasping at straws.

As for Parson's competence, I agree. Parson is a much better commander then this plot point indicates. The only reason why he was in the direct path, in my mind, is because author said so. He's capable of better, he just wasn't allowed the option.

You lost me here. When did I say that Jillian split up her forces? All I said was that she and the Archons probably used most of her move looking for the dragons before turning towards rescuing Prince Ansom.

If she didn't, then you have to explain why Jillian was almost out of move and why it took so long before Jillian told the archons that she was heading towards Prince Ansom. You could say she may be really far away, but considering that dragons would have to be close to Prince Ansom, it seems unlikely that Prince Ansom would send the reserves on a hunt for dragons that were nowhere near where Jillian started out.

[Justyn]

I dunno where you got the idea there was a ceiling of 9. Jillian said she was a 9. But she showed the Caesar guy a lot of respect, and he told her to stack up. Both imply that his is leadership is higher than hers.

Not punching someone in the face while giving them the evil eye is not a "lot of respect"; unless you are reading a panel or page that I missed.

Calling an action girl like Jillian "chickie" is usualy grounds for getting hit. HARD. Jillian is putting up with Caesar Borgata for his (probably) higher Direct Bonus. She is probably thinking that getting rid of Stanley the Worm is worth letting a few sexist remarks slide.

I think that if he makes one too many remarks, Jillian just might need to speak with a proctologist to get her boot back.

[Ezbez]

My cereal boxes aren't that up-to-date on current events.

[Bendal]

Look at it this way; when Parson was in our world, he didn't have to worry about feeling compassion about his little cardboard allies and forces. In Erfworld, though, he got to know some of them to the point he saw them as people first, units second.

His last gift may be allowing him to see them as units again, instead of people. A commander of men has to avoid getting too close to his men, or he may hesitate to sacrifice them to win a battle. The truly good leaders knew how to do that; I think Parson is capable of doing it now too.

[Narkis]

Since we are talking about Parson's dwagon gambit. I'd like to remind the posters that Jillan's plan was to go directly to Ansom. She didn't go out looking for the dwagons. How stupid can a hardcore gamer be to place his troops directly on the auto return of the air forces he knows would likely be coming? Is it really plausible that Parson could have made such a mind-bogglingly, stupid move otherwise? Suggestion spell or no, you just don't put yourself into that kind of risk. It was such an easy thing to avoid. Bah, that boop-up still leaves a sour taste in my mouth. I don't understand how that could have happened. It doesn't feel realistic to me.

Unless, of course, Jillian wasn't taking the shortest route back to Ansom but there is nothing to suggest that would be the case.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0069.html

Jilian initially performed the search as ordered. Only when her gwiffons started running out of move did she abandon it to ride to Ansom's rescue. There's absolutely no way Parson could've predicted where Jilian would lead her stack to search, and at what hex she'd be when she changed plans and beelined to Ansom.

[Jeivar]

I think that if he makes one too many remarks, Jillian just might need to speak with a proctologist to get her boot back.

That right there is my new favorite sentence.

As for Parson . . . yeah, boop is definitely about to go down. Scary, bloody, gruesome, traumatic boop.

I can't wait.

[pendell]

I had always heard that quote attributed to Robert E. Lee.

Michael Sharra put the words in his mouth in the very work of historical fiction I reference. I'm reasonably sure Robert E. Lee *in real life* didn't say that.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Am I the only one who did the maze...

Nope. Nope...

[LordVader]

Oh, my. "Looks like meat's back on the menu, boys"...

But seriously, with that bracer Parson will wreck in combat.

[SteveMB]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0069.html

Jilian initially performed the search as ordered. Only when her gwiffons started running out of move did she abandon it to ride to Ansom's rescue. There's absolutely no way Parson could've predicted where Jilian would lead her stack to search, and at what hex she'd be when she changed plans and beelined to Ansom.

It was another calculated risk he had to take. He apparently couldn't get the wounded dwagons completely out of reach (if he held back too much move for the final breakoff, the raids wouldn't be able to cover the column sufficiently, and he had to get the job done before the main force of Coalition air units returned and his window of opportunity closed). Thus, his best available option was to place them out of reach of as many enemy units as possible (over the lake) and hope that Wanda's spell worked to prevent an attack by the few enemy units that could reach.

I've done a few maps of the siege raids, combining what we saw on both Ansom's map and Stanley's Eyemancer Big Board.

[raphfrk]

I just can't get over the loss of those A dragons, mentally, somehow. I guess this is a bit unfair, since there's no way to have dramatic tension if the Perfect Warlord just whoops everyone's ass simultaneously.

There is a conversation at the start of the comic:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0006.html

Wanda: The Perfect Warlord
Stanley: Undefeatable?
Wanda: I ... don't think so. But as good as they come

He isn't supposed to win every battle, he is just supposed to be as good as possible.

Also, it could be argued that his loss was due to inexperience. He didn't know he could veil the dragons and was still getting to terms with the rules of the game.

It may be that his orders that day were near optimal (maximum probability of winning or best decision after a cost/benefit analysis). However, he was just unlucky, though ofc, luck is also a stat.

Another option is that there was a potentially better warlord who would have won the early battles, but then lost later ones. Parson, would make mistakes early, but before GK falls, he would end up ahead of any other alternative.

The final option is that since the spell hasn't completed yet, he was only a very good warlord. In fact, perhaps, obtaining experience was required, and so that is why the spell couldn't complete instantly.

[Chronicled]

Also, there is no indication that Jillian spit her force up.
None.
Zip.
She could have done so but all the visual/verbal indicators show that she did nothing of the sort. The reasonable assumption is that she kept all the units in a tight formation and you KNOW IT. You're grasping at straws.

Minor nitpick. Um, did you not see this page? Where Jillian does exactly that?

[raisins]

Since we are talking about Parson's dwagon gambit. I'd like to remind the posters that Jillan's plan was to go directly to Ansom. She didn't go out looking for the dwagons. How stupid can a hardcore gamer be to place his troops directly on the auto return of the air forces he knows would likely be coming? Is it really plausible that Parson could have made such a mind-bogglingly, stupid move otherwise? Suggestion spell or no, you just don't put yourself into that kind of risk. It was such an easy thing to avoid. Bah, that boop-up still leaves a sour taste in my mouth. I don't understand how that could have happened. It doesn't feel realistic to me.

Unless, of course, Jillian wasn't taking the shortest route back to Ansom but there is nothing to suggest that would be the case.

Ansom made a brilliant comeback but he also got amazingly lucky. He was supposed to have two bad choices: (1) stack up in the hex and see all his siege croak or (2) flee, possibly lose his forest unit group AND still possibly lose most of the siege. Throwing Jillian at the wounded stack was a daring gambit. She might well not have found it at all and we know she was not guaranteed to defeat it. There was a high chance of losing her, and if any of the uncroaked warlords survived the remaining dwagons could have still done a lot of damage. It also leaves Ansom less defended than (2) assuming he stays in the hex. THEN true to form Ansom rides to the rescue, guaranteeing victory over the wounded dwagons but leaving himself in the open. His forces heal at the start of his turn, so he was looking at fighting the entire B group at full health with three damaged warlords, three damaged archons and change. This all-out attack masterstroke preserved the chances of the coalition to take GK, but the price should have been the deaths of Ansom, Jillian, Vinnie and the Archons. Plus quite possibly the loss of the Arkenpliers, depending on vagaries of movement stats and mounts--it may be that only warlords and casters can carry items.

That whole turn was exactly the right thing for Ansom to do IF he could see the future and rely on Stanley being a moron. Parson didn't screw up and Ansom's moves weren't genius. He just brilliantly and sacrificially charged forward to the least evil option for his side, and was then handed a perfect game by the Tool's unforced errors.

[reignofevil]

Basically, Its a plus three sword :P

[The Boyce]

But you overlook the fact that this is not chess, and that is not how Parson sees the world. He would have to undergo a radical change in view for him to see the world like that. It goes completely against his personality, which is a major part of the plot.

If this were an actual tabletop wargame with little figures instead of little people, Parson would consider them as pieces and not give a damn if they felt anything or died. To become "The Perfect Warlord" he has to be able to look at it from that view, not from his current view.

His personality remains the thing it is merely his perspective that changes.

[raphfrk]

I've done a few maps of the siege raids, combining what we saw on both Ansom's map and Stanley's Eyemancer Big Board.

Are the rules of the game that units cannot see neighbouring hexes, unless they (attempt to) enter them?

That does kinda seem to be the case, as otherwise the wounded dwagons weren't far enough away. If Anson had happened to loop around clockwise instead of counter clockwise, he would have seen them in the neighbouring stack.

[Leewei]

A significant variation of the idea of Ruthlessness: Still caring about your 'units' and being horrified about what you see, yet being absolutely compelled to carry through with 'correct' actions, regardless. I suspect that when all this is over, Parson will put down his sword and never again want to pick it up.

[the_tick_rules]

freakin hillarious.

[fendrin]

It was another calculated risk he had to take. He apparently couldn't get the wounded dwagons completely out of reach (if he held back too much move for the final breakoff, the raids wouldn't be able to cover the column sufficiently, and he had to get the job done before the main force of Coalition air units returned and his window of opportunity closed). Thus, his best available option was to place them out of reach of as many enemy units as possible (over the lake) and hope that Wanda's spell worked to prevent an attack by the few enemy units that could reach.

I've done a few maps of the siege raids, combining what we saw on both Ansom's map and Stanley's Eyemancer Big Board.

Thank you, I thought we were going to have to go through that whole mess again...

[xopher.tm]

You can't wait for Bogroll, Sizemore, or Wanda to die?

I can't wait to find out who.


Edit: Yay for my first avatar!

[Algrim Wubble]

A few points:

1) It's assumed now that Parsons can physically fight. He's boopin huge compared to almost anything in Erfworld. We've seen him standing next to Wanda, Sizemore and Stanley. He dwarfs Bogroll who is larger than the normal guys. I don't think Ansom and the Coalition (including Charley) knows just how big Parsons really is. He only ever seen Parson via a spell. Most fo the time Parsons is hanging out in the Tower of Efdup. Having this mammoth guy with a boopin huge sword may make a few allies want to re-consider. (Seriously, unless they scale Parson down some, it looks like he can step on most units)

2) Ruthlessness - Means willing to do stuff you maybe not normally willing to do... like fight. Sizemore may not have to kill anything now... Parsons may do it all himself. Before this comic, who thought that Parson would physically get involved... going forth and slaughtering hordes of enemies, especially if it's not expected is pretty ruthless... even more so if he makes a beeline straight for Ansom or the other warlords.

[UncleWolf]

The last panel makes the page. FWIW, I don't think he's been transformed in any way, he's merely being reminded that all this cutesy-boop Erfworld style masks a war. In which people he has come to care about can die. Throughout the comic to date, Parson has never separated himself from the idea that it's all a game. Misty's death started him along a different path... but now he needs to finish that evolution and seal the deal.

Ruthlessness?

Ruthlessness.

So be it!

I think you are on to something there.

[DCR]

Dave from real life comics, commenting on the control system of Tony's spaceship.

Where's my cookie?

Here. One perfect cookie.
*Milk not included. All rights reserved. Writ of en morte sumus you'retakingthiswaytooseriously. Go 'way. Shoo.
@ishnar:
I italicized 'known' to show that we do not have a number higher than 9. Only numbers mentioned so far (iirc) are 2, 5 and 9. For all we know, these are the only three values you can have for leadership. Extreme, not likely, almost guaranteed to be wrong, but no proof to the contrary. So, I put known celing of 9.

[SteveMB]

That's a good point, a lot of people seem to take it literaly, as a personality change. The following example is purly hypothetical, but shows hwo it could be an ability: An ability that affects units that benefit from his Leadership bonus (as Chief Warlord, this applies to everyone in the Capital). It increaces thier Attack so they strike more relentlessly and without mercy, but their defense is lowered as a tradeoff. Balanced somewhat by Parson's now boosted Leadership.

Hmmm... if the "Leadership" listing for the sword means that Parson now has a Leadership more appropriate to a "Perfect Warlord" instead of a paltry 2, that's a significant improvement for GK's fighting ability (since all their units get the bonus). If Parson did his calculations based on the "2" value, the actual odds would be considerably better than he figured (and the number of Archons Charlie would actually need to go up against him would be considerably higher, if it came to that).

That sword swing in the next-to-last panel gives me the impression that he can handle it more competently than "pointy end away from user".

[Fez]

I think you are on to something there.

While folk thought the 'Tragically Malicious' a cute play on words, given the writing style its probably very accurate. You get luckamancy at the cost of something tragic befalling you or yours.

Parson's mathamancy already predicted his side had a 58% chance of winning if Charlie stayed out of it.

Now his leadership bonus is higher, and he has luckamancy to skew odds further in his benefit.

Also, and this may be part of the ruthlessness, he has been given combat abilities. Parson hasn't actually fought anything himself. He's an overweight gamer. As he said all he knew about swords is pointy side faces away. Now he has combat skill rating and a big sword. He's going to be expected to kill things himself. He's part of the combat value of GK. That ups the odds even further as leaders with magic items seem to be rather potent, but that would be hard for Parson.

Ruthlessness itself in some games also sometimes refers to treatment of routed armies. Ie, any troops which break due to morale and damage normally have a chance of escape, but not against a ruthless enemy.

Anyway, you have to assume the tragically malicious is a warning about the terms of the luckamancy charm. He doesn't have to eat them after all, but if he decides to, its with the fair warning tragedy will befall. I suspect Bogroll may indeed be the source of that tragedy. But the joy of it is, we won't know till it shows up on screen.

[Suicide Junkie]

While folk thought the 'Tragically Malicious' a cute play on words, given the writing style its probably very accurate. You get luckamancy at the cost of something tragic befalling you or yours.

This lead me to the thought:
What if luckamancy doesn't come with a cost, so much as that luckamancy involves moving die pips from one roll to another?

IE: Luckamancy gives a +2 to your forces in Battle A, combined with a -2 on your forces in Battle B. If battle A would have been a close call, but battle B would have been a landslide victory (for either side), then you're benefiting.
You'll win the close call with much less casualties, and the unwinnable battle will still be unwinnable.

Or over time, perhaps. Luckamancy gives a +6 to your battles today, but you then suffer -2 to all your battles on the following three days. Just be sure to have the big important battles today, leaving nobody capable of counterattacking when you're vulnerable next turn.

[tomaO2]

True, the lake could be bigger, but from the shots we have of Jillian flying over the lake, it is consistent with the map of it being only three hexes.

Um, look again. She's not over the lake, she's at the lake edge. Still on the shore. According to the visual, Jillan was able to see the dwagon, essentially from land. We know According to the map, there is nothing but water hexes and and forrest hexes. We already know that you can only see the hex your are in (at least for forrest hexes). I'm going to give the authors the benifit of the doubt and say you can see one hex away from you over water though, which makes it even MORE likely to be found. So this means the hex Parson chose was an even worse place then I thought it was.

As for the water hex, it keeps most forces from being able to attack the dragons if they are found. And Jillian's forces only had a 61% of wiping out the dragons on her own, so it did give the dragons some protection from overwhelming forces..

That's assuming that Ansom and Vinny didn't join in. Why would you assume they wouldn't? In fact. Parson seemed mostly worried that the bats would find him, rather then Jillian. If Ansom had found him, he would have simply joined with Jillian and attacked. The only way the suggestion spell could have worked is if Jillian found them first. What did she do then? She radioed backup and then attacked immediately. Why immediately? Because if she waited for Ansom to appear, Parson would see Ansom Moving and would have attacked Jillian first with initiative.

This is all very simple and foreseeable. If they find my woonded troops, do they have enough troops close enough to kill them? Answer: Yes.

You lost me here. When did I say that Jillian split up her forces? All I said was that she and the Archons probably used most of her move looking for the dragons before turning towards rescuing Prince Ansom.

If she didn't, then you have to explain why Jillian was almost out of move and why it took so long before Jillian told the archons that she was heading towards Prince Ansom (told them to go without searching. That was the very page where she told them to go without searching. What's wrong with you?) You could say she may be really far away, but considering that dragons would have to be close to Prince Ansom, it seems unlikely that Prince Ansom would send the reserves on a hunt for dragons that were nowhere near where Jillian started out.

It was stated that Jillian's forces only had barely enough move to get to Ansom. That's why. You do realise that Ansom's plan would have had NONE of Jillan's force able to reach Ansom's stack if they failed to find the dwagons right? That's why it didn't occur to Vinny to suggest it. It would have been an utter disaster to fail.

Besides, having the Archeons search other hexes IS splitting up. Also, to optimize such a strategy, they should have went on a search pattern and get back together further down, at the pincers area of the dwagon doughnut. Which they did not because Jillian did not want to search. She said she did not want to search. They found the dwagons, not because they were searching but because they happened to be in the path of the most direct root to Ansom. You don't put your troops in the path of the most direct root to where you KNOW they will be going to reinforce others.

Try re-reading this whole sequence in light of what I have said. There is nothing to suggest that Jillian did a search.

[The Old Hack]

I do not think Cesar's leadership is necessarily any better than Jillian's... though it is certainly possible as he is likely the finest Transylvito has to offer. I think it more likely that he assumes charge because Transylvito is the most strongly represented at the ambush site and either 1) the Don insists on having one of his own in charge rather than some unknown mercenary or 2) whoever is in charge of the side which has the most units present gets to decide who is in overall command.

Moreover, there are wargames in which the leader present with the highest social status takes charge regardless of actual leadership skills. This was certainly the case in that classic Empires at Arms. If you weren't careful, this meant that you could end up having an Allied army where the abysmally incompetent Czar of Russia ended up in charge above military geniuses like Wellington or Archduke Karl of Austria. (Dreadful historical fact: at the eve of the battle of Austerlitz, the finest russian commander -- Kutusov -- was sitting in a corner asleep because no-one was paying any attention to his advice. Next day, the Czar went out and demonstrated his (total absence of) military genius against Napoleon.)

[Fez]

This lead me to the thought:
What if luckamancy doesn't come with a cost, so much as that luckamancy involves moving die pips from one roll to another?

Possibly. Though it also could be that it isn't luckamancy in general, as much as the cost for this 'bonus' breakfast.