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Thread: Erfworld 119, page 107
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2008-09-02, 04:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 119, page 107
That makes sense if production orders for "a caster" don't include the ability to specify pre-installed aptitude for a specific type of magic. We have no hard information either way on that point. (We do know that the ruler doesn't get to specify the popped unit's personality -- just ask the late King Banhammer. To the extent that personality influences the ability and inclination to use certain types of magic, perhaps the latter is also a "potluck" sort of thing....)
Sizemore isn't really a good example -- his abilities and temperment were just fine for his original function (digging and mining). He wasn't a square peg pounded into a round hole; he was a square peg who found the corners of the nicely fitted hole squeezing in on him.Last edited by SteveMB; 2008-09-02 at 04:41 PM.
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2008-09-02, 04:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 119, page 107
Who says he was scanning? Maybe he was, maybe it was just dumb luck. In any case, there are no end of possible reasons why he might have spread his forces out. Maybe he was exploring and wanted to cover as much territory as quickly as possible—perhaps because he wanted to get back before Transylvito noticed. Maybe he was just passing through and it simply wasn't convenient to have all the dwagons in one hex. Maybe he had tactical reasons for spreading out his forces over multiple hexes; 56 dwagons would fill 7 maxed-out stacks, making it reasonable to put one stack in each hex of a donut. Without more information about what was happening at the time and why he was there, it's impossible to say.
The doombats certainly could have done this but apparently didn't. Again, any number of possible reasons, but the most pertinent one would be, why would they bother to send in more than one? Even if (as is likely) they used the doombats to regularly patrol their surrounding lands, there are lots of hexes to patrol and no need to send more than one bat to any particular place. If they suspected someone was using a single foolamancer to veil multiple cities, they could have sent in multiple bats, but it's pretty clear from the latest strip that they hadn't even thought of it.
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2008-09-02, 04:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 119, page 107
why do i always have the feeling that i missed something
Always.. after nearly every Erfworld Q_Q
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2008-09-02, 05:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-02, 05:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 119, page 107
I don't see that. Chess isn't a good example here, since there are so many ridiculous ways to force stalemate, but most games aren't Chess, and in most tactical games—shogi, othello, go, tic-tac-toe, hex—there's going to be a winner and a loser even if both players have perfect knowledge of the future, because the game's set-up can't be perfectly symmetrical. In some games, stalemates and draws aren't even possible. It makes playing the game a waste of time and not much fun, but it doesn't result in stalemate. Typically, the first player wins.
"I advance my middle pawn."
"I resign."
Also, we can be confident that there are limitations on predictamancy, though we don't know what those limitations are.
Finally, if one side has a predictamancer and the other doesn't…
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2008-09-02, 05:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 119, page 107
Perhaps caster specializations are random? That would solve a lot of the complications.
Perhaps the most useful ones don't pop as often.
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2008-09-02, 05:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 119, page 107
If the number of warlords in a stack influences a veil's integrity the Foolamancer's veil over FAQ might have been impaired by an Artifact bonus?
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2008-09-02, 05:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 119, page 107
Tin Foil Hat Alliance. Something like epileptic trees, but with pride.
Anyway, that isn't a TFHA theory; it makes too much sense.
I don't think you can hide a hex, only what's in it. Let's suppose the foolamancer makes the chokepoint look like impassable mountains. Along comes a doombat and figures it can't get through, so it reports its finding and moves along. Back at base, they're building a map, and there's now this big blank area that they haven't been able to get into. I'd be suspicious at least and probably worried if I were the don, and I'd set about finding some way to find out what's in that region. This, of course, assumes that there's always some way to enter a hex—maybe in the worst case hire a squad of marbits to tunnel through.
By letting the patrols in and find nothing, they removed the suspicion, and lived in peace and prosperity until Stanley came along and spoiled it all.
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2008-09-02, 05:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-02, 05:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 119, page 107
Can nobles be casters?
If so, perhaps Banhammer was a Predictamancer himself and the events that occured during the fall of his kingdom as well as the results of that collapse have all been part of some Xanatosian Gambit to end all Xanatosian Gambits.
Perhaps there was one ultiimate outcome to everything; the destruction of FAQ, whether it be by Saline IV, Transylvito, or by Jetstone, but one of them would have more drastic consequences than the other. Some survivors versus none perhaps. Therefore, taking the least of three evils as your destroyer would be best, especially if it eventually resulted in the humbling of everybody involved. Sure, FAQ would be gone, but part of it would live on and eventually avenge it.
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2008-09-02, 05:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 119, page 107
What really puzzles me is - why didn't Transylvito recce parties, or anyone else, find the ruins of FAQ after the fall of Banhammer? It couldn't have been veiled anymore and there should have been some rubble left after its destruction.
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2008-09-02, 05:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 119, page 107
Faq was accessible by air and tunnel. If Jack concentrated exclusively on the choke pont for air access, somebody could have discovered the tunnels and found Faq that way.
Also, letting an occasional unit fly over and see nothing but empty terrain was better strategy than letting those hexes remain (apparently) inaccessible, containing Titans only know what. In the latter situation, somebody might have made a concerted effort to tunnel through the mountains and explore the area.
Even without the Foolamancer, the place is relatively isolated. Given that it's hard to get to, and that as far as anybody knows there's no real reason to go there. it could remain unvisited for some time -- especially when everybody in the region has more pressing business (the war against Stanley) to attend to.Last edited by SteveMB; 2008-09-02 at 05:32 PM.
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2008-09-02, 05:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 119, page 107
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2008-09-02, 06:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 119, page 107
I'm not sure why people think we need all these complicated explanations for how the foolamancer - predictamancer setup was beaten.
Look, it's not complicated. There is one question (how Stanley knew Faq existed in the first place.) But as soon as he was aware of its existence, the entire setup was already beaten. All the veil does is keep you from knowing that the city's there; it doesn't protect it from being attacked. (And bringing multiple warlords in would defeat the veil quite easily, if you think they need it -- I'll bet casters count for that purpose, too, since they seem to be able to operate as warlords. That would give him another reason to bring Sizemore, if you think that that's what that mission was.) However Stanley knew about the city, by the time he led his Dwagons there the Foolamancer and Predictamancer were already non-issues. (The Predictamancer could tell them they were doomed, but they already knew that, hence Jillian.)Last edited by Aquillion; 2008-09-02 at 06:13 PM.
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2008-09-02, 06:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 119, page 107
A random thought:
What if Jillian is really liying to the coalition to protect Wanda? It may not seem very plausible, but makes more sense (imo) that having a secret kingdom near Transylvito growing prosperous over the years.
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2008-09-02, 06:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 119, page 107
That seems unnecessarily complex. I mean, she's not even actually protecting Wanda that much.
Additionally, and more importantly, she tried to go and retrieve Wanda personally. She wouldn't have done that if she didn't think Gobwin Knob was doomed to fall.
(But something I don't get: How did she know Wanda was in Gobwin Knob and not fleeing with Stanley? The logical thing would be to assume that Stanley took Wanda with him, since she's so valuable as a caster.)Last edited by Aquillion; 2008-09-02 at 06:20 PM.
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2008-09-02, 06:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 119, page 107
Some thoughts on Wanda being the Predictamancer of FAQ that Jillian refers to, despite her obvious preference for Croakamncy:
We have no indication that when an Overlord orders a caster "popped" they have any control over what that caster's specialty will be, any more then we have reason to believe they can specify in detail the stats of any other unit. And we know that a given unit type can vary in personality and ability. Witness for example Bogrool, who "has a good heart" which is an uncommon trait for a Twoll. Or Stanley himself for that matter, who was not even popped as a Warlord but as a infantryman, yet apparently rose to that rank and eventuallty to the level of "designated heir" on merit. So it seems there is a "will of the Titans" factor involved in popping new units. This is after all consistent with many gaming system rules rules, where you chose the makeup of your starting lineup but those unts may be adjusted by the RNG [Random Number God], and it is then your responsibility to make the best use of them you can.
Banhammer, as has been pointed out, would likely have had no use for a Croakamancer (so why "pop" one intentionally?) but, having been dealt one may have chosen to have her work in some other (to him) more useful field. We have after all seen Stanley do the same, when he had her cast the massive findamancy/lookamancy spell As Jillian notes she "hate[s] that sort of thing" but will do so, and do well, out of duty. Likewise if she were Banhammer's predictamancer, it may have only been out of obligation, not out of choice.
I can well imagine that, even it it were not contrary to her inclinations, any Predictamancer in that situation (Banhammer treated his casters like crap) would have been discontent. he lot of prophets and oracles has traditionally not been a happy one. The prophet who receives no honor in there own land is a common theme, and that's not the half of it. There's the whole "Kill the Messenger" idea, and/or the "I Disbelieve" one. I'm sure someone can post a trope page, but just consider Cassandra as an example.
Nevertheless, this does not imply that the fall of FAQ was, in way way, a result of betrayal. The ability to predict a future event does not, in general, convey the ability to prevent it. Even if the Predicamancer was able to foresee an overflight of Dwagons piercing the veil and destroying FAQ, it does not follow that they could have done anything to substantially alter that outcome. Indeed, that inablity to alter a predicted outcome is the entire basis of many tales, eg the king/god who attempts to prevent his overthrow by killing/banishing the predicted usurper, only to have that very act set in motion his eventual doom.
Under those circumstances, if Wanda were the predictamancer, and if she was already involved with Jillian (as likely she was) it might not have been outside her "duty" to allow, even encourage, her absence at the critical time. Indeed, with Jillian being the "designated heir" to the Kingdom, it might well have been considered her duty to insure such absence, lest she too be croaked.
This raises an interesting question. If as Jaclyn notes, Wanda is not currently serving Stanley not due a loyalty spell, is it because she is doing so for her own advancement, or is she doing so because, knowing/guessing the future, she knows that her Jillian must eventually come to a one-on-one confrontation with him (in FAQ, perhaps) in order to achieve her own destiny as Overlord? If so, that would imply that she is, and has always been, working in Jillian's interest even though Jillian might not perceive it that way. The" You never had as much choice as you thought" line strikes me at the moment very much as the way an oracle might refer to such a situation.
ETA: by the way, as to how Stanley and his Dwagons (if it was Stanley though that's likely) managed to find FAQ despite the predict-and-veil defense, that defense might well be effective against the occasional overflight by Transilvito units who were no actively looking for a city. However, if a (potential) enemy scout were led there some other way, say by spotting and following Jillian back from one of her mercenary missions, it's likely no amount of veiling could prevent them finding it again later. It's similar to the situation we saw with Ansom when he suspected a veiled stack in the forest. He went charging in, confident that knowing it was there he could find and engage it. Stanley might well have relied on the same principle.
Again, this plays into the whole "Banhammer, you are predicted to fall [and your actions to prevent that will eventually bring that about]" trope. Had he not had a rebellious, adventure-loving heir popped, FAQ might have remained undiscovered.Last edited by ChowGuy; 2008-09-02 at 07:04 PM.
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2008-09-02, 06:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 119, page 107
I rather like the idea of rulers not being able to control precisely what kind of caster their capital might pop. For one thing, this is analogous to wargames in which you can declare you build a unit but not control which specific unit you get. Another possibility: certain Cities might have predilections towards popping certain kinds of Casters but the builder cannot control exactly which kind. (For example, one city might always pop Eyemancers of some kind, another might produce Casters from the Erf axis at random, and so forth.) I rather like this last one as it could generate additional warfare in order to capture Cities capable of producing some sort of valuable unit not obtainable from elsewhere.
My Avatar is Vinnie Doombats from the Erfworld comic written by Rob Balder and illustrated by Jamie Noguchi.
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2008-09-02, 07:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 119, page 107
Stanley was a warlord, so had a chance of being able to see through the veil without spreading his forces out- its possible Jack veiled the city he flew over but Stanley just managed to find it anyway. Transylvito may just have been sending bats out to scout & they were consistently fooled by the veil.
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2008-09-02, 07:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-02, 07:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-02, 07:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 119, page 107
Nice catch, I knew it was someone sort of like Spike, but not him. It's James Dean.
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2008-09-02, 08:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 119, page 107
If I were an Erfian, I would be on the lookout for a placve as defendable as Faq. If I found one that was unoccupied, I would build a city there as a fall back if my other cities were destroyed. The possibility of mining resources (seems to be a common theme in Erf mountain cities) makes it even more attractive. That's actually a tactic I used back in the original Warcraft and 2. I would set my peasants to making a clearing in a forest, and build my city in there. I would have several powerful land units guard the only land entrance, and set about creating a strong aerial strike force.
Kind of like what Charley, Stanley, and Banhammer all have/had.
What happens if someone sends some settlers into a hex that has a veiled city?
BanHammer treated his warlords like crap. The implication being that he preferred the casters.
Aye, but why then was Jillian taken by surprise? We know that she knew about the prediction of Banhammer's demise, we learn it from her mouth. If the predictamancer didn't betray Banhammer, there would be no reason for Jillian to not know. Banhammer could have built up a larger army(or more casters) to defend the chokepoint and tunnels. No, whether or nor Wanda is the predictamancer, I think the predictamancer had to have betrayed Banhammer.
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2008-09-02, 08:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 119, page 107
I'm not sure why Aquillion thinks these explanations are "complicated". They're no more so than Aquillion's own idea, and they're at least as valid, given the lack of solid information we have on the situation at the time. Heck, I don't even have a theory at this point, and I'm not planning to make one; it's just a plausible hypothesis.
How did Stanley learn of the existence of the cities? Aquillion's theory doesn't explain it; it requires an extra, unstated, hypothesis. So in what way is it superior to the other theories? It isn't.Last edited by Arkenputtyknife; 2008-09-02 at 08:41 PM.
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2008-09-02, 08:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 119, page 107
A mystery wrapped in an enigma wrapped in a tasty enchilada wrapped in spoiler tags:
Spoiler
Wanda was the predictamancer. She saw something, or the potential for something. She did not betray her side. Rather, she faithfully told Lord Banhammer about her vision for the future. The philosophical ruler then ordered her to reveal their location to Stanley and thus be conquered.
Wanda saw her domination of Jillian as necessary in order to win the Battle of Gobwin Knob, which in turn led to the assumption that Jillian couldn't break her suggestion. She was wrong on both counts.
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2008-09-02, 08:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 119, page 107
We still dont know enough about the combat mechanics of Erfworld or the exact structure of GK to properly evaluate the situation, most especially if its all just one hex down there, or if its effectively multiple hexes.
If its a single hex then it may be as simple as just firing off some of the traps as first to see whats left, in the hope of conserving some of the traps for later turns. Or it may be more complicated- perhaps each trap type has a different level of effectiveness against various troop types/levels, and he has to fire them in a specific order for maximum effect, possibly using normal attacks at various points to kill off stuff that is resistant to all traps, and/or the survivors after all the traps are expended, hence not firing them all at once.
If its actually or effectively multiple hexes (Like Titan, forinstance, for those who have played that boardgame), and there are some indications that it is (eg having to have the angels clear a path to the warlord for Jillian in the wounded dragon stack battle), then other possibilities come into play. Mostly these revolve around modifying the combat odds, or forcing involuntary enemy moves.
Modifying the odds can mean providing combat penalties for troops in the affected hexes, and then attacking them with units who are less or un-affected by that penalty type, assuming that the traps arent inherently lethal (like the native/non-native terrain effects in Titan). Forinstance a gas trap that causes choking and coughing would seriously hinder the marbits in combat, but wouldnt bother a golem at all, thus giving the golem an advantage. A lot of golems should be unaffected by many liquids also, and its mostly golems that are down in the tunnels as far as we know, although the same should apply to uncroaked.
Forcing enemy moves- In some games an enemy unit CAN move when its not its turn, although its almost always in fairly limited proscribed ways in response to specific things. The most common are combat results and changes to the terrain. A gas or liquid trap may change a hex from occupiable to unoccupiable. Some game systems require that any unit in a hex that becomes unoccupiable be moved out immediately, according to certain guidelines, regardless of turn, rather than simply destroying the unit. Units can also be forced to retreat as well as, or instead of, being damaged, by combat results in some systems, although Erfworld has shown no evidence that forced retreat is as a possible combat result yet. This may be desirable in order to position the enemy forces more to your liking. Erfworld has shown no hard rules about stacking limits so far, but there likely are some (or why wasnt the coalition army all stacked in one hex for safety, given their vast warlord/artifact bonuses), or perhaps some of the traps, especially the collapses, can impose some. Usually if units become overstacked Bad Things Happen. This can range from rendering the overstacked units ineffective in combat while still being affected by the results of combat (thus only having to fight say 8 units, even though there are 40 in the hex, with all 40 sharing the fate of those 8), to immediate automatic destruction of all overstacked units, either instantly, or if theyre unable to fix the overstacking on their next turn. That would make using certain traps to force overstacking before starting your attacks highly valuable. Or maybe the traps serve to seperate the enemy units so they cant support each other in combat and can thus be ganged up on one after the other at better odds.
We dont know enough details of combat to be sure, but it seems likely some version of multi-hex dynamics is going on. All will be explained soon, we hope. :)Last edited by VariaVespasa; 2008-09-02 at 08:52 PM.
\'Twas brillig, and the slithey toves....
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2008-09-02, 08:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 119, page 107
Originally Posted by fendrin
Perhaps predicting the doom of FAQ, was in-fact the reason it was doomed.
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Re: Erfworld 119, page 107
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2008-09-02, 09:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 119, page 107
She said MORE! She said, If she were the caster then the object would have borne the brunt of the backlash. She was the caster of the link between her, jack, and Misty. Ergo, she made them bear the brunt of the backlash.
Maggies eyes bug out because she sees that Parson is mad at HER! If she had distributed the backlash evenly, then all of the casters may have survived."If I could just interrupt your stunningly dysfunctional group dynamic for a moment to interject." -- Erfworld
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Re: Erfworld 119, page 107
Wow, now that one is worthy of the TFHA name. Here's your hat - you are number 11.
Re: Jillian the Deceiver
It just doesn't seem likely. Jillian is very bad at lying and getting the coalition to completely distrust her by not stopping Stanley is both poor for her long term relationship with Ansom, but odd for someone who wants to kill Stanley very much.Lead Designer for Oracle Hunter GamesToday a Blog, Tomorrow a Business!
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