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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: 121 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 109

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkenputtyknife View Post
    He bought it.

    The electric light bulb had already been patented twice by the time Edison got his hands on it.
    Ah, but those where not incandesant lightbulbs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    If the players figure out and try to stop this from occuring, the wizard instantly crafts a HUGE mound of quarterstaves and clubs to obscure himself before teleporting out.

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: 121 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 109

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptC View Post
    Hmmm. Vesali's pointers are all tactical scenes, and can be different stacks in different hexes. SteveMB's scene can't be explained that easily. From the evidence, multiple stacks can indeed be in a single hex, and what the stacks are can be seen before initiating combat. My mental picture just got flipped a bit, that kind of mechanic makes it much more difficult for the game to actually be cardboard on a table.
    Vesilasi's chosen strip all takes place in the single hex over the lake. Unless you were talking about separate tactical map. Which I won't endorse till we get Word of God or see one in the comic.

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    Default Re: 121 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 109

    Quote Originally Posted by Vossik View Post
    Vesilasi's chosen strip all takes place in the single hex over the lake. Unless you were talking about separate tactical map. Which I won't endorse till we get Word of God or see one in the comic.
    Yep, tactical hexes is what I meant.

    YMMV regarding whether there are tacmaps. It's a theorem that works for me, it's a very common mechanic, and it explains a lot of what we see going on without needlessly complex rules.
    Dibs on his dice.

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    Default Re: 121 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 109

    My personal problem with that strip is that he is telling Manpower to attack NOW. Who goes to strike at Jillian, yet he is killed before his attack by Ansom. Which doesn't seem very turnbased to me. You could vouch that it was for dramatic effect, but honestly I think we need to learn more about the combat mechanic before we make any decision.

    Personally I am leaning towards the idea that fighting is real time and initiative is gauged by some formula involving move. In the end we still don't know much though.
    Last edited by Vossik; 2008-09-15 at 11:19 AM.

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    Default Re: 121 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 109

    Age of wonders flips to a turn based tactical map during combat, similar with heros of might and magic. Lords of Magic flips to a real time combat map, like its peer, Lords of the Realm.

    Many other games use simpler stacks of units fighting without a map.

    One very ususual aspect of game is how combat in a cell and movement on world map can occur at same time, eg Ansom rescue.

    We have 3 casters+undead (including warlords)+Parson+sentry unit(s) with 0 movement points that in theory could help in caves at 0 movement cost. Undead tend to have resistances to certain area effects/traps so at times may be useful.

    Unit with regeneration may be useful as can be fully healed for next battle even if damaged in this one. (Eg Bogroll)

    A key question is how much wiping out enemies in caves will help leveling. Normally, if a small group is able to wipe out a much larger damaged group, they will all go up a level or more in veteran/elite status.

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: 121 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 109

    Quote Originally Posted by Zolem View Post
    Ah, but those where not incandesant lightbulbs.
    Yes they were. Read the patents. Edison was initially refused a patent because his filament lamp was too similar to the one in the British patent.

    What Edison did was (a) recognize the potential of the idea; (b) put a helluva lot of research and hard work into making it practical (extending the filament's life from a few hours to, eventually, a thousand hours or so); and (c) marketing to get people using the thing.

    Edison deserves top marks and full credit for vision and doing the hard work needed to give us the incandescent electric light (instead of just patenting an undeveloped idea and sitting on it like his predecessors), but he didn't invent the concept.
    Last edited by Arkenputtyknife; 2008-09-15 at 12:38 PM.

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    Default Re: 121 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 109

    Quote Originally Posted by Vossik View Post
    My personal problem with that strip is that he is telling Manpower to attack NOW. Who goes to strike at Jillian, yet he is killed before his attack by Ansom. Which doesn't seem very turnbased to me. You could vouch that it was for dramatic effect, but honestly I think we need to learn more about the combat mechanic before we make any decision.
    The only part that bothers me is that Ansom attacked by surprise. I can't think of ANY TBS game, cardboard or computer, that allows for surprise reinforcements. Except an RTS. Which this is NOT.

    So, I assume artistic license is at play in allowing a surprise attack.

    Reinforcements per se don't bug me. I've seen reinforcement rules in TBS games that allow adjacent hexes to provide support after a specified number of tactical combat rounds. Maybe something like that happened, even though Ansom would be reinforcing from two or three hexes away. Ansom arrived as a reinforcement on a map edge, conveniently enough right at the same map edge Jillian was fighting Manpower.

    A little too convenient, but I've seen stranger things happen with cardboard bitz in hand.
    Dibs on his dice.

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    Default Re: 121 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 109

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptC View Post
    The only part that bothers me is that Ansom attacked by surprise. I can't think of ANY TBS game, cardboard or computer, that allows for surprise reinforcements. Except an RTS. Which this is NOT.

    So, I assume artistic license is at play in allowing a surprise attack.

    Reinforcements per se don't bug me. I've seen reinforcement rules in TBS games that allow adjacent hexes to provide support after a specified number of tactical combat rounds. Maybe something like that happened, even though Ansom would be reinforcing from two or three hexes away. Ansom arrived as a reinforcement on a map edge, conveniently enough right at the same map edge Jillian was fighting Manpower.

    A little too convenient, but I've seen stranger things happen with cardboard bitz in hand.
    Honestly I believe we are being kept in the dark about the combat system for the most part because they want to go more in depth when Parson is going into combat.

  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: 121 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 109

    Quote Originally Posted by Vossik View Post
    Honestly I believe we are being kept in the dark about the combat system for the most part because they want to go more in depth when Parson is going into combat.
    Honestly I think we are being kept in the dark because it allows them a freer hand with the story.
    Remember, Erfworld is first and foremost a story, and only secondarily (if that) about the game mechanics.

    Now, I could easily see there being a 'time' value associated with each hex of movement, allowing for the possibility of reserve forces. Given that it could only be done by the side who's turn it is, it would have to be a matter of a back-up plan rather than using a small number of forces as a lure, then pouncing with a larger force. That would have to be a multi-turn strategy.

    Of course, this would not be possible in a boardgame, as non-computer games (with a few exceptions) do not handle real-time combat particularly well.
    Last edited by fendrin; 2008-09-15 at 01:47 PM.

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    Default Re: 121 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 109

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptC View Post
    The only part that bothers me is that Ansom attacked by surprise. I can't think of ANY TBS game, cardboard or computer, that allows for surprise reinforcements. Except an RTS. Which this is NOT.
    The rules seem to be that on your turn, you can move all your units at the same time.

    However, there is no master 'player' who actually issues the commands. Each unit moves on its own initiative. Though, all units do recognise the chain of command due to natural thinkamancy.

    Fog of war would thus allow unexpected reinforcements (in principle, unexpected to the player himself).

    However, that shouldn't have been possible against Parson due to his board. However, maybe the board 'zooms in' for combat and thus they just didn't see Anson's stack moving towards the dragons.

    You issue commands to your units via whatever tech/magic you have but they then have to carry them out (or maybe not as was almost the case with Jillian).

    Non-realistically, each unit can probably save its move until the end. You could move two scouts forward to find the enemy using up their move, and then order all your air units to converge on the location of the one that found them.

    In real life, doing that would take two turns as 'hold position' would burn up move for your air units.

    It probably works like civilisation, where you can sequence unit moves. However, the switch to real time combat means that units would also need a 'speed' stat, but probably would be proportional to move.

    If that was true, then Jillian's tactics were poor. A better plan would be to hold position outside the Dragon hex and tell Ansom where the dragons were. Both stacks could then enter the lake hex at the same time.

    However, she may have already entered the hex by the time she spotted them. In that case, if she tried to wait, Parson could have attacked. However, even then if she had 2 move left, she could have left the hex and re-entered when Ansom arrived.

    Another option is that each side is assigned a certain amount of time and move is just a measure of speed. However, that doesn't seem to be the case as Jillian was just waiting around and in turn based games, move is the number of hexes you can move.

  11. - Top - End - #161
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    Default Re: 121 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 109

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post
    Now, I could easily see there being a 'time' value associated with each hex of movement, allowing for the possibility of reserve forces. Given that it could only be done by the side who's turn it is, it would have to be a matter of a back-up plan rather than using a small number of forces as a lure, then pouncing with a larger force. That would have to be a multi-turn strategy.
    We have seen that move isn't the only limit on what units can do. A Thinkamancer can only make a finite number of calls in a go.

    Also Sizemore seems to have the ability to do stuff even when not his move. Presumably, he can't do an infinite amount of stuff per day.

  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: 121 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 109

    Quote Originally Posted by VariaVespasa View Post
    Blatantly false- A stack is all the units in the hex. Thats what "stack" MEANS.
    That would be a somewhat strange definition. People already gave counter examples from the strip, but the simplest case is when you invade a nearby hex with part of a single original stack. First you must break your stack, thus getting two in the hex.

    I tend to see Erfworld as TB to deploy forces between hexes, and RT within a given hex. There are many points I still don't understand, mostly related to the area that can be covered by ground and flying stacks (what is contact?)
    Last edited by teratorn; 2008-09-15 at 02:03 PM.
    Avatar: ruthless Parson (Erfworld).

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    Default Re: 121 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 109

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post
    Remember, Erfworld is first and foremost a story, and only secondarily (if that) about the game mechanics.
    Did I mention that I own a game store? I give game demos all the time. The authors are following the rules for successful game demos, and for the same reasons.

    First, the rules as I explain them to my staff:

    1) Never win the demo. The customer always succeeds on their first exposure to a game.
    2) Tell a story first.
    3) Spoon-feed the customer strategy.
    4) Just tell the customer the number they need to roll on a die. Don't tell them how to calculate it, just tell them the number they need to roll.
    5) Explain rules in detail only when asked.
    6) Even if it's normally an all-weekend game, the demo can take no more than 15 minutes.
    7) Give the customer a take-away just for taking the demo. (I want a unipegataur.)

    Here's why it works that way:

    Game players tend to fall into 10 categories.

    01) Storytellers. These players are actually scripting a movie in their heads, usually with themselves as the star of the show.
    10) Gamer geeks. These are analytical players (who probably understand binary). These players are looking to play optimal games given complete understanding of the rules and game situation.

    If you give a game demo where you explain the rules of the game, and then say "Let's play!", you lose the storytellers. There's no STORY involved, it's just cardboard counters or little painted soldiers and some boring rules.

    If you give a demo where orcs are charging space marines and Ted clutches his chest and falls over, screaming "For the Emperor!" as he expires, the storytellers are right there with you. And you don't lose the analytical player: he just asks you to explain why he needed to roll a 3+ for that armor save.

    In other words, story trumps rules. I've been known to allow my opponents to get a cavalry charge even when they clearly missed by 1/2", just because the story of the battle works better. (Plus, I never win the demo... )
    Dibs on his dice.

  14. - Top - End - #164
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    Default Re: 121 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 109

    Quote Originally Posted by hiigaran View Post
    funny though how erfworld isn't a real time strategy game its a turn based strategy game
    It's kind of both. The overall rules and system represent a turn-based strategy game, yes... but the units think and act in real time, when they're not constrained by those rules.

    So it follows that the instant they're in a position where they're not limited by the rules (if they're all in the same hex, say), they start behaving like RTS units. The move limits keep Jillian from running up to someone and croaking them with her sword if they're in another hex, but once she's within arm's reach (or even just within the boundaries of the same hex as them), that no longer seems to apply, and she's free to croak away; naturally, they're free to freak out and try to run around within the hex at the exact same time, in the same way we've seen people walking around freely within their hex up until now.

    Likewise, within a hex movement doesn't require move (Bogroll has 0 but is not immobile), and for the most part all interactions (how fast you run, scouting, etc) are governed by real-world rules, with the caveat that a creature's physical abilities are accurately described by its stats.

    This is the simplest explanation for what is happening in the tunnels. The whole area is one big hex (possibly even just one part of the larger city hex). There's a warlord inside the tunnel (Sizemore, who counts as a warlord; if it counts as part of the capital, possibly Parson counts, too), so the Gobwin Knob units are controlled and do not auto-attack. Aside from his big bonus to golems, that is part of why it was so important to have Sizemore serve as a warlord (Gobwin Knob doesn't have enough left for everything, probably.)

    Hexes are not one big single space where everyone stands on the same spot. That's been made very clear in the way combat acts in detail, and in all the moving around inside Gobwin Knob by the heroes, which amounted to being in the same hex.
    Last edited by Aquillion; 2008-09-15 at 03:13 PM.

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    Default Re: 121 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 109

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
    It's kind of both. The overall rules and system represent a turn-based strategy game, yes... but the units think and act in real time, when they're not constrained by those rules.
    I don't think the game needs to encompass the off-turn stuff. Think cut scenes.
    Dibs on his dice.

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    Default Re: 121 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 109

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptC View Post
    I don't think the game needs to encompass the off-turn stuff. Think cut scenes.
    Why not? Important things can happen in those parts. It's clearly possible for prisoners to escape, for instance, or to croak some of their captors (Wanda notes this when taking Jillian's chopsticks.) It was possible for Parson to do something that endangered the link of Gobwin Knob's casters during the night. Wanda's entire interrogation of Jillian took place off-turn, during the night (because their turn started at the end of it.) Gobwin Knob's leaders were able to use magic items to send orders to their units several hexes away, outside of their turn.

    Erfworld's rules are much less constraining than many people seem to think they are. The turn rules / movement rules only slap down magic forcefields between hex edges; aside from those, and a few additional rules that govern who you can attack and unit strength, we've had every indication that Erfworld behaves more-or-less like the real world.

    In other words, yeah, "cutscenes" -- but combat is also cutscenes in Erfworld. All of it. A unit's stats influence how it does, but you can (say) seize the higher ground within a hex, or fill a hex with poison gas, or drop rocks on your enemy, or use any one of a million other real-world tactics with no regard for game mechanics. Once you're inside a hex, while your stats might determine how strong your arm is or how good you are at combat, you still have to physically run up and swing your sword in a real-world fashion to kill someone -- it doesn't happen automagically.
    Last edited by Aquillion; 2008-09-15 at 03:24 PM.

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    Default Re: 121 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 109

    Quote Originally Posted by raphfrk View Post
    If that was true, then Jillian's tactics were poor. A better plan would be to hold position outside the Dragon hex and tell Ansom where the dragons were. Both stacks could then enter the lake hex at the same time.

    However, she may have already entered the hex by the time she spotted them. In that case, if she tried to wait, Parson could have attacked. However, even then if she had 2 move left, she could have left the hex and re-entered when Ansom arrived.
    Jillian's orders were to find and croak the wounded dwagons. Ansom's initial plan would have been to retreat to the column to avoid being croaked by the dwagon ring (as Vinny says, it's a trap for Ansom). It's only after Jillian's proclamation of her love (via thinkagram) that Ansom acts out of emotion (not strategy) putting his life and Vinnie's on the line to save Jillian. If Stanley hadn't acted equally irrationally, the war might have ended already (Parson wanted to use the B dwagons to croak or capture Ansom on the next turn, but Stanley recalled them instead so he could go off on his own).

    Thus Jillian was following strategically sound orders by not waiting for Ansom.
    There is some debate about whether or not she saw them before she entered their hex, but my interpretation is that you cannot see units in other hexes.

    Quote Originally Posted by raphfrk View Post
    Another option is that each side is assigned a certain amount of time and move is just a measure of speed. However, that doesn't seem to be the case as Jillian was just waiting around and in turn based games, move is the number of hexes you can move.
    Not to mention that turns end at the declaration of the side currently moving, and chronological events (such as nightfall) happen based on the turn ending.

    Quote Originally Posted by raphfrk View Post
    We have seen that move isn't the only limit on what units can do. A Thinkamancer can only make a finite number of calls in a go.

    Also Sizemore seems to have the ability to do stuff even when not his move. Presumably, he can't do an infinite amount of stuff per day.
    Yes, however it is well established that units can only move on their own turn.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptC View Post
    Did I mention that I own a game store? I give game demos all the time. The authors are following the rules for successful game demos, and for the same reasons.
    No, I didn't know that. I'm still pretty sure that Rob has stated that Erfworld was not written with a specific set of game mechanics in mind, and that they are determined as needed by the story. I don't have a link, though, so I'm not 100% sure.

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    Default Re: 121 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 109

    Quote Originally Posted by Grubsnik View Post
    Not having played Rome, Total War, I don't know this for sure, but
    "If you are in a tactical battle, does your turn end before it finishes?"
    My guess would be that all tactical battles are fought until a winner is found.
    Like most turn based games. Tactical battles are resolved "instantaneously" as far as the strategic turn is concerned. You can choose to auto-resolve the battle or lead it personally.

    City battles are timed, I don't remember how long, usually there is plenty of time unless you are being too conservative in marching around the enemy city. If the defender holds the city for the timed period, then the defender wins. The attacker must capture the city square and hold for 3 mins. Other than city battles, I don't think there is a time limit, it's fight until you win or the other wins.

    Even though some have mentioned a mini-hex grid for tactical battles, Bogroll's 0 move argues against it. So I believe hexes apply to strategy only, not tactics. Battles are engaged by turn, but once engaged, they are resolved RT.

    Erfworld's rules are much less constraining than many people seem to think they are. The turn rules / movement rules only slap down magic forcefields between hex edges; aside from those, and a few additional rules that govern who you can attack and unit strength, we've had every indication that Erfworld behaves more-or-less like the real world.

    In other words, yeah, "cutscenes" -- but combat is also cutscenes in Erfworld. All of it. A unit's stats influence how it does, but you can (say) seize the higher ground within a hex, or fill a hex with poison gas, or drop rocks on your enemy, or use any one of a million other real-world tactics with no regard for game mechanics. Once you're inside a hex, while your stats might determine how strong your arm is or how good you are at combat, you still have to physically run up and swing your sword in a real-world fashion to kill someone -- it doesn't happen automagically.
    Pretty much everything Aquillion said.

    As for the whole Scout argument. It's worth noting that in many turn based games, special units, like scouts, are not attackable except by other special units, such as assassins or other scouts.
    Last edited by ishnar; 2008-09-15 at 05:50 PM.
    "If I could just interrupt your stunningly dysfunctional group dynamic for a moment to interject." -- Erfworld

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    Default Re: 121 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 109

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkenputtyknife View Post
    Edison deserves top marks and full credit for vision and doing the hard work needed to give us the incandescent electric light (instead of just patenting an undeveloped idea and sitting on it like his predecessors), but he didn't invent the concept.
    True, but he made the product, and that's more than the person with the water-bicycle patent ever did. It's eassy to come up with an idea, it's a lot harder to do it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    If the players figure out and try to stop this from occuring, the wizard instantly crafts a HUGE mound of quarterstaves and clubs to obscure himself before teleporting out.

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    Default Re: 121 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 109

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptC View Post
    The only part that bothers me is that Ansom attacked by surprise. I can't think of ANY TBS game, cardboard or computer, that allows for surprise reinforcements. Except an RTS. Which this is NOT.
    Have you ever played Hearts of Iron? Damn good game, btw. It is Real Time Strategy, but I think its system could work in Erfworld, too.
    O HAI

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    Default Re: 121 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 109

    Collapsing tunnels is a great fun but there is one more greater!

    That needs 1, 2 or more foolomancer.
    1.:Simply create a maze of the tunnels (right and set) and watch the enemy with lookamancers.
    2.:We fool the scouts by an image that they found the way in, but we really show a dead end. The army starts to move and the front arrives.
    3.:We demolish the end of the path and open the way to the back of the army. We can have 2 choices now:
    4a: Veil the back of the army as the defenders, so the front will think they found the way and attack
    4b: Veil the front of the army, as the defenders caught them and attack.
    5: If this not works, how about closing the caves before and after them without hesitation? If they did wander a lot in the caverns (and you finished off their cavefiters), they will absolutely have no retreat.
    If trying to dig, the hole cave might collapse over them (no captain would sacrefice such an army - I hope)

    This hole caving plan does not need mutch units, being while Parson can aim for the flying units.

    Other plan:

    Simultanously collapse the caves separating a few dosen foes at once that can be defeated without major losses (or without any losses). If blowing up all the caves would demolish the castle, this might be a good strategy :D Use the same thecnique like the dragons, except blocking the way afther backing. Ah, can mudgolems and earth elementals walk trough solid rock? This might help a bit too...
    What is better this way? XP!!!! Parson can levelup!!!


    If this trick would get out of hand, then do build some extra walls to the city that can be veiled as the real garrison thus making the foes to siege (maybe themselves?) a fake castle. Can buy time. Maybe till population ("This week is the week of PLAGUE!, no dwellings increase population") Ah, is this heroes 2,3 or 4 cause in 4, population is daily...

    Why did Parson not set the unitgrowth?

    Tooooooooooooo mutch questions I guess...

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