Paid DMing/GMing?

[alexeduardo]

deliciously evil.

Machiavelli would be proud.

but seriously, I think it was a smart idea and am surpised no one thought of it first.

but then again, selling cocaine through a catholic convent is also smart as well

[Lord Tataraus]

1. On it being immoral... I guess you're welcome to that opinion. I would like to point out that there are many conventions where people are paid to DM the game and teach rules to the public. It's always been part of the game. You're other argument seems to be that I'm charging other people to have fun myself, and that it's somehow immoral to profit from having fun, but I think someone else addressed that.

Well, I guess I phrased it wrong, I am not saying its immoral to be paid and have fun with what you are doing. Let me start over one last time, new slate and here we go.

[hr]

First reaction - Shocked and appalled; insulted.
Why? - Someone asking to be paid for playing a game is insulting to me (though not personally, but generally) because of the immense amount of arrogance that implies, even if you are a good GM. A person asking for money to play a game were many others are around to play the game for free implies that the one person is better than the others. RPGs are cooperation games, there is no competition (generally) among the players, and as such each player is on an even footing, each brings the same amount of effort and participation than the others (ideally of course) and that is the spirit of the game, a bunch of people, generally friends who come together to socialize and enjoy each other's company by playing a game. However, one person decides that he does such a good job that he will ask the others to pay him to show up and play the game. That is an insult and display of arrogance to anyone who plays such games, what gives you the right to demand payment? Well maybe its an outsider, but still the home group is deciding to let a new guy join in, why should they pay him to do so?

Now, I know what you're going to say, they needed a GM, sure, they were desperate and so they risk and sacrifice of the essence of the game and paid up instead of looking for a new guy who would be willing to do the exact same thing for free.

How would you (that is to you the playgrounders) react if one day one of your fellow players comes in and says, "I'm going to start charging for playing with you guys, give me $20 an hour." It doesn't even have to be a GM, any player could do it, as a cooperation game every one is providing just as much work to the enjoyment, the only difference is one guy focuses on the game as a whole and everyone else focuses on a very small portion (their character) but uses that portion to the same equivalent degree as the GM. If one guy is a really good role-player, would you pay him to play in your games? What about the amazing optimizer who offers his service of building a great character for a fee?

Many people wouldn't take any of those deals because many more people who can do just a good of a job or sometimes even better for free.

[Fri]

For me, gaming is a hobby, like, for example, singing. Someone can have fun singing, and nobody said that it's immoral to having fun (singing) and got paid at the same time.

Another example, I'm a writer. I mostly write for fun, since I don't have time to write full time now, and I'm still in college. Writing is my hobby, just as gaming.

So, why can't I post an ad to say that I offer myself as a writer-for-hire, for example?

I mainly write fantasy stories for my friends and a fantasy forum. Nothing serious. But, I can also post an ad in the forum, saying that I will write a fantasy story on payment if someone interested.

And needless to say, I once got some offer.

Is that evil or immoral?

Well, yes. Maybe those who offered the job for me will make some kind of (material) profit from my work. But those who paid for GM-ing might also got some (immaterial) profit, like fun for example.

Well, maybe writing isn't the best example. I'll just stick to singing.

To further my point, I'll skewer Lord T's post above me. This isn't a personal attack, obviously. If you're insulted or something, just say it, and I'll cut it from my post.

Someone asking to be paid for singing is insulting to me (though not personally, but generally) because of the immense amount of arrogance that implies, even if you are a singer. A person asking for money to sing were many others are around to sing for free implies that the one person is better than the others. Parties are for having fun, there is no competition (generally) among the participant, and as such each participants is on an even footing, each brings the same amount of effort and participation than the others (ideally of course) and that is the spirit of the party, a bunch of people, generally friends who come together to socialize and enjoy each other's company by singing. However, one person decides that he does such a good job that he will ask the others to pay him to show up and sing. That is an insult and display of arrogance to anyone who sing, what gives you the right to demand payment? Well maybe its an outsider, but still the home group is deciding to let a new guy join in, why should they pay him to do so?

Edit:

Man, I don't know why I'm worked up on this. Actually, my first reaction was surprised. But I can't figured out why I'm surprised/discomforted. Maybe it's the same as Lord T's reason.

But a few minutes later I realized that it's just fine. And not because of other's post mind you.

At first, I thought I will never pay for a pro DM eventhough I don't have any problem with it..

But now, after writing this post, I realized. It might be mighty fun to play with a pro DM.

Seriously, if I'm in seattle, I'd like to have some of my friends (especially some DM friends. You know, people like me who more often DM-ing rather than playing) to play together with the OP as a DM.

[Lord Tataraus]

Close Fri, but you're analogy is missing some important parts that skew it a bit, let me clean it up: (the underlined part show the changes that make this a direct alternate analogy/scenario/whatever)

Someone asking to be paid for singing in a church chorus is insulting to me (though not personally, but generally) because of the immense amount of arrogance that implies, even if you are a good singer. A person asking for money to sing in a church chorus were many others are around to sing for free implies that the one person is better than the others. Singing in a chorus is for having fun and cooperating, there is no competition (generally) among the participants, and as such each singer is on an even footing, each brings the same amount of effort and participation than the others (ideally of course) and that is the spirit of the chorus, a bunch of people, generally friends who come together to socialize and enjoy each other's company by singing in a church chorus. However, one person decides that he does such a good job that he will ask the others to pay him to show up and sing in the chorus. That is an insult and display of arrogance to anyone who sings in the church chorus, what gives you the right to demand payment? Well maybe its an outsider, but still the home group is deciding to let a new guy join in, why should they pay him to do so?

[Poison_Fish]

I think part of the problem here Lord T is your not making any distinction between those who play in a roleplaying game and those who run it. I don't think the two roles are exclusive, but there is a difference between them.

Let's take the singing example. It's already an assumption on your part that all the singers are on, essentially, equal footing. They all play the same part, singing in the choir. However, your leaving out the director. The GM is very much like a director. He could just be another member of the choir, albeit harder working to help organize the voices, or the church could hire someone to train all the volunteer singers if it's desired. By the transaction of money, there is a feeling of security in what your hoping to receive. Though it may not be ensured. Hence, you could have an amateur director, or a professional one. Is it so wrong to hire a professional?

While I can agree, most groups of gamers who get together to play a roleplaying game often have just about anyone be a GM. In that style of a social setting for a game, it's perfectly fine. It's largely a group of friends. I'd feel offended if I started charging my friends for running a game.

However, what happens if I want to also play in a game with my friends. There are numerous solutions, such as rotating GM slots. Finding an outside party from a pre-existing social circle is also a solution. I honestly don't see it as offending if you remove it from the group of friends social context that you keep applying.

[Lord Tataraus]

I think part of the problem here Lord T is your not making any distinction between those who play in a roleplaying game and those who run it. I don't think the two roles are exclusive, but there is a difference between them.

Let's take the singing example. It's already an assumption on your part that all the singers are on, essentially, equal footing. They all play the same part, singing in the choir. However, your leaving out the director. The GM is very much like a director. He could just be another member of the choir, albeit harder working to help organize the voices, or the church could hire someone to train all the volunteer singers if it's desired. By the transaction of money, there is a feeling of security in what your hoping to receive. Though it may not be ensured. Hence, you could have an amateur director, or a professional one. Is it so wrong to hire a professional?

While I can agree, most groups of gamers who get together to play a roleplaying game often have just about anyone be a GM. In that style of a social setting for a game, it's perfectly fine. It's largely a group of friends. I'd feel offended if I started charging my friends for running a game.

However, what happens if I want to also play in a game with my friends. There are numerous solutions, such as rotating GM slots. Finding an outside party from a pre-existing social circle is also a solution. I honestly don't see it as offending if you remove it from the group of friends social context that you keep applying.

I think you get it, though we do disagree on the equal footing matter. As long as you understand what my interpretation is, I don't care about your opinion. If I met a group that had a "professional GM", I would tell them that they are saps and either go on my way or ask if they want me to run a game for free. I just don't understand the mindset, but I realize it exists even if I think those people are wrong in their interpetation and I just can't respect anyone who takes advantage of that mindset.

So, you get where I'm coming from and I am done here. Goodbye,
- LT

[SarxMarksman]

I mean, if you have time to run a free game for everyone in your area who needs a DM, go right ahead.

And if you can provide equal product for a lesser price than me, go ahead too.

That's the American way after all.

[BRC]

I think you get it, though we do disagree on the equal footing matter. As long as you understand what my interpretation is, I don't care about your opinion. If I met a group that had a "professional GM", I would tell them that they are saps and either go on my way or ask if they want me to run a game for free. I just don't understand the mindset, but I realize it exists even if I think those people are wrong in their interpetation and I just can't respect anyone who takes advantage of that mindset.

So, you get where I'm coming from and I am done here. Goodbye,
- LT

Well, I don't think he's refering to himself as a "Proffesional Gamemaster" as such, I think it's more "A guy who is willing to GM for money".

It's the difference between somebody who just mowes lawns and a "Yard Care Specialist". I didn't get the impression that he was implying that he was anything more than a guy willing to DM for money.

[Tormsskull]

It doesn't even have to be a GM, any player could do it, as a cooperation game every one is providing just as much work to the enjoyment, the only difference is one guy focuses on the game as a whole and everyone else focuses on a very small portion (their character) but uses that portion to the same equivalent degree as the GM.

No, just no. In what I hope is still a traditional setup, players put no where near as much time into prepping for sessions than the DM does.

If one guy is a really good role-player, would you pay him to play in your games?

Probably not, as my group has roleplaying down pat. But I might be willing to pay for him to go into some other people's groups to try to teach them how to RP.

What about the amazing optimizer who offers his service of building a great character for a fee?

I'd offer to teach him what D&D is really about for the same exact fee he was charging.

Many people wouldn't take any of those deals because many more people who can do just a good of a job or sometimes even better for free.

In a typical setup, very few people are going to pay for a GM, that is granted. However, sometimes it could make a whole lot of sense.

Case in point, I work 40 hours a week, I'm in school 8 hours a week, I have homework that amounts to a few hours a week, I run a little editing/publishing business on the side. I also prep for a bi-weekly campaign, which probably takes me anywhere between 4-10 hours depending.

Now, if I could pay someone to DM, I would free up 2-5 hours every week, and I'd get to play in a high-quality game (presumably so). I'd definitely consider that.

[RTGoodman]

Well, I don't think he's refering to himself as a "Proffesional Gamemaster" as such, I think it's more "A guy who is willing to GM for money".

It's the difference between somebody who just mowes lawns and a "Yard Care Specialist". I didn't get the impression that he was implying that he was anything more than a guy willing to DM for money.

*Points to the first post*

If you are interested in my Craigslist Ad that I have posted today, here it is:

"I am a professional gamemaster/dungeon master."

[SarxMarksman]

I understand that the term "Professional Gamemaster" is pretty pretentious, and I probably would not use it anywhere but in the craigslist ad. The reason I do so is because people will go "Are you serious?", read the ad, and hopefully become more understanding.

So, I really just use the phrase as an attention-grabber, I'm not planning on making it standard fare.

[Darth Mario]

Personally, I think it's a fantastic idea. Doesn't everyone want a job doing something that they love?

In fact, I think the idea is so fantastic that I've already been doing it for four years. $20 an hour. Nearly all of that goes back into books and supplies.

[SarxMarksman]

Any advice on getting started up?

[snoopy13a]

Any advice on getting started up?

Other then reviewing your rulebooks and making sure your supplies are in order there isn't that much to do until you have a prospective client. Once you have a client and know what type of game and what sort of campaign they like, then you should get cracking on planning it out.

Basicially, you and your client need to work out beforehand:

1) What game
2) What sort of campaign (dungeon crawl, city, heavy RP, etc)
3) The houserules they like to use (and you should adopt their houserules no matter how silly or unbalanced they may be)
4) How challenging they like their adventures to be
5) Starting level and how quick (or slow) advancement should be

After doing this, then you'll need to plan out the adventure. Since you're being paid, the players are going to expect quite a bit. Thus, the campaign will need to be well-planned and thought out.

[Poison_Fish]

Other then reviewing your rulebooks and making sure your supplies are in order there isn't that much to do until you have a prospective client. Once you have a client and know what type of game and what sort of campaign they like, then you should get cracking on planning it out.

Basicially, you and your client need to work out beforehand:

1) What game
2) What sort of campaign (dungeon crawl, city, heavy RP, etc)
3) The houserules they like to use (and you should adopt their houserules no matter how silly or unbalanced they may be)
4) How challenging they like their adventures to be
5) Starting level and how quick (or slow) advancement should be

After doing this, then you'll need to plan out the adventure. Since you're being paid, the players are going to expect quite a bit. Thus, the campaign will need to be well-planned and thought out.

Something I found useful as well. Write up a little journey log an hour or two after the session. A short summery of what they've done each week tends to be exciting for them.

[valadil]

Professional just means that he's getting paid for it. As soon as money is involved it stops being a hobby or amateur kind of thing.

I maintain that there's nothing wrong with offering the service, though I have to wonder about the groups who have to rent a GM.

[Poison_Fish]

Professional just means that he's getting paid for it. As soon as money is involved it stops being a hobby or amateur kind of thing.

I maintain that there's nothing wrong with offering the service, though I have to wonder about the groups who have to rent a GM.

so, magic the gathering isn't a hobby?

Buying the books for any game uses money.

[AKA_Bait]

Might I make one suggestion? Call yourself a Professional Game Master if you decide to advertise small and wide. The term Professional Dungeon Master can have... other connotations.

[snoopy13a]

I maintain that there's nothing wrong with offering the service, though I have to wonder about the groups who have to rent a GM.

Is it really hard to imagine that in a group of 4-6 friends that none of them are good at GMing and/or want to GM? If they have good jobs then chipping in $60 a week isn't a finanicial burden.

Think of a group of work-friends at a place like Microsoft or Boeing (both in the Seattle area like the GM is) that decide to get together one night a week to play a PnP game. None of them may have the ability or desire to be a GM so they decide to hire one instead. It is mutually beneficial to all involved.

[Ichneumon]

I would so use this. Our group always wants to play, but no-one really "likes" to be a dm. If only I didn't live in Europe.

[valadil]

so, magic the gathering isn't a hobby?

Buying the books for any game uses money.

I meant when someone is being paid for their service.

[Poison_Fish]

I meant when someone is being paid for their service.

Regardless, most hobbies often enough will involve the use of money. Be it a service or buying the basic product.

[Voshkod]

As gamers get older and have a) less time and b) more disposable income, I could see this taking off. More power to you, and good luck.

[SarxMarksman]

Other then reviewing your rulebooks and making sure your supplies are in order there isn't that much to do until you have a prospective client. Once you have a client and know what type of game and what sort of campaign they like, then you should get cracking on planning it out.

Basicially, you and your client need to work out beforehand:

1) What game
2) What sort of campaign (dungeon crawl, city, heavy RP, etc)
3) The houserules they like to use (and you should adopt their houserules no matter how silly or unbalanced they may be)
4) How challenging they like their adventures to be
5) Starting level and how quick (or slow) advancement should be

After doing this, then you'll need to plan out the adventure. Since you're being paid, the players are going to expect quite a bit. Thus, the campaign will need to be well-planned and thought out.

I actually have two clients already, that I have been running games for for a month now. I was really asking more on advice to gather further clientele.

[Destichado]

OP is brilliant and wonderful for being wise enough to recognize a valuable skill and gutsy enough to offer the service.

[leperkhaun]

While i would never pay for someone to DM, i would have no problem with it.

The fact of the matter is that he is charging for a service he is providing. Calling it immoral unethical would be like saying Wizards is like that for making your pay for books, or a stand up for making you pay for tickets, or a convention making you pay for admission. It would be like asking Michael Jordan to play for free because he likes the game.....

I see some people are mad, however the thing is that he did not start a game with some players got a couple weeks in and said, "Im going to start charging you, pay up or its over," He advertised that he would run a game for money........the players are in full knowledge of this.

If they are willing to pay someone to keep current on the rules, to take the time to develop campaigns (i hope he isnt running modules), and to show up and run the group.... then whats the big deal...especially when THEY CALL HIM.

Now i would have issues if he was scamming people, but as long as the players are enjoying themselves there is no reason why people should get mad. Its a good way to make some extra cash.

As for legal issues... i dont think there would be any legal issues. He is providing a service for a fee... its not like he is giving all the players copies of his matrieals.

As for advice. Get in good with the local game stores, you can ask your clients to recommend you if they think you are doing a good job.

[Fri]

And make the price lower, even a bit? My only concern is the price is kinda steep.

[Charity]

$60 for 4 hours is $15/hour so in real money thats what?... £8.40 not a rate I'd be willing to work for, and thats not including prep time.

I think it's a fine idea, and certainly not a new one. A friend of mine used to make a living from running a play by post game... yes I'm that old that email was not invented yet, but he used to charge for that (we used to playtest his games for him, biggest group I've ever played in 12pcs! If you want a plotline broken explored thoroughly I'm your man)

One way you could make more is to explore online markets, I dunno what other folks experiance of pbp games are, but I have found they tend to have short lives, and if I were paying (a nominal fee, as you could re-use a lot of your material) I would feel I could expect more stability...

Asa to any idea that this in some way immoral/not in the spirit etc, have you never paid to get into a con, gone to see a performance that wasn't free, employed a skilled labourer?
Seriously now unless the fella is good, nobody will pay. If he were charging his mates it would be dodgy, but I wouldn't expect my plumber mate to charge me either, or my IT mate, but it doesn't mean they shouldn't get payed by strangers.

[Hzurr]

To quote The Joker from Dark Knight: "If you're good at something, never do it for free."

A few remarks:

1st: You shouldn't get paid for playing a game
Rebuttal: NFL, NBA, NHL, MLB. Sorry, getting paid for playing a game well isn't anything new. If he's offering a service that people want and are willing to pay for, and people are paying for it

2nd: It's immoral/unethical
Rebuttal: He's doing what nearly every employee in the country/world is doing. Offering a product/service that people want. Technically, you can cook for yourself, but you go out to restaurants and pay someone else to cook for you, because they're better at it than you, or you really don't feel like cooking. Just because the chef enjoys cooking doesn't make it immoral

3rd: This is very arrogant
Rebuttal: Eh, maybe the OP is being arrogant. However, if he really is good enough to do this professionally, advertising himself as such isn't a problem.

4th:You charge too much
Rebuttal: If people are paying for it, obviously he isn't.

Basically, complaining about this, is complaining about every single person who has ever started a business from scratch. Someone saw a need they could fill, and now they're being paid for it. That's all there is to it.

[vampire2948]

Ethics? Morals?

He has found a way to make money through a hobby. Which I think is excellent.

Ethics and morals matter in this case, he enjoys it, he makes money from it, people are willing to pay his prices.

Though I agree that it might create an unstable player - DM environment which may cause problems. But if he's been running it for this long...surely he's making it work.

Hzurr's statements are completely true and relavant to this situation. He has found a way to make money, he enjoys it. It is a smart idea, and I congratulate him for this.

@ Everyone anti-this

Please, think prior to typing. He has made this work, people pay him to DM for them.
There is nothing unethical about...say...performing magic tricks at a children's party, or any other form of entertainment.
He is merely using his hobby to produce an income.

If you suggested he make his price lower:
People pay his prices. Why would he make them lower? He is trying to make some money here...though I suppose lower prices might attract more people to his pile o' customers.

Good luck with this!


Vampire2948,