Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

[Morbius]

Actually, to speed things up anyone can read that refs spoiler above.

PS: Max damage... yay.

[stupnick]

hold action till after leaf.

[Morbius]

It was a hit right?

[stupnick]

i didn't even see that....
ac 16 is a hit yes

[Maurkov]

Leaf Round 4 Init 15

As Leaf completes the scroll, a fiesty looking hippogriff appears X14-Y15. Leaf hops on its back. Fast mount - (1d20+1)[3] (no saddle, armor check applies). If he makes DC 20, that was a free action, otherwise it's a move. If free, he scoops up one of the scrolls Cyn dropped.

Max the dog remains in Y13.

Leaf readies an action.

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Once Cyn has mounted, scoop up [a | the other] scroll and direct the mount to fly to O14-P15, 75'. Guiding with knees is auto-success. The hippogriff chooses MitS as his dodge buddy.

Stat Block

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Passive Listen - (1d20+9)[27] Passive Spot - (1d20+8)[21]
HP16
AC20 t14 ff17
Location: Z13. In a readied action moves to O14-P15, 75'.
Hands: Scroll , Shield
Active Spells: ESNAII (15 rounds)

Augmented Ashbound HIPPOGRIFF
Passive Listen - (1d20+4)[18] Passive Spot - (1d20+8)[27]
HP 31
AC 15 (16 vs. MitS via dodge feat) (–1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13
Location X14-Y15 later moves to O14-P15, 75'
full stats

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Large Magical Beast; HD 3d10+15 (31 hp); Init +2; Spd 50 ft. (10 squares), fly 100 ft. (average); AC 15 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13; BAB +3/+13; Attack: 2 claws +11 melee (1d4+6) and bite +6 melee (1d8+3); Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.; SA -; SQ Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent; Saves F+8 R+5 W+2; Abilities ST22 DX15 CN20 IN2 WS13 CH8; Skills: Listen +4, Spot +8; Feats: Dodge, Wingover

Hippogriffs are aggressive flying creatures that combine features of horses and giant eagles. Voracious omnivores, hippogriffs will hunt humanoids as readily as any other meal. A typical hippogriff is 9 feet long, has a wingspan of 20 feet, and weighs 1,000 pounds.

COMBAT
Hippogriffs dive at their prey and strike with their clawed forelegs. When they cannot dive, they slash with claws and beak. Mated pairs and flights of these creatures attack in concert, diving repeatedly to drive away or kill intruders. Hippogriffs fight to the death to defend their nests and their hatchlings, which are prized as aerial mounts and fetch a handsome price in many civilized areas.

Skills: Hippogriffs have a +4 racial bonus on Spot checks.

Bud Passive Listen - (1d20+5)[7] Passive Spot - (1d20+5)[18]
HP13
AC20 t12 ff18
Location: Y13
Active Command: Guard
SQ: Scent

Edited for ride check result.

[Morbius]

Wait, wait, leaf was not mounted? He brought only one dog?

[Maurkov]

Yes and yes. I guess that's a problem with the secret post thing. It's not obvious to the LoS ref exactly what is pertinent information. Were you even told that there was a dog in Y13?

[Morbius]

Yeah, I just assumed you were mounted because of your sheet listing 2 dogs and I don't think you mentioned anything on the 1st post about leaving one of them behind...

[stupnick]

Cyn

Taking my turn now...

Grab one of the scrolls on the ground, and then mount the hippogriff.

stats

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Location Z14 (mounted)
HP: 20/30
AC: 10
T: 7 F: 11

[Morbius]

Oh, I do was wondering what benefit Leaf would get by mounting on the hippogriph. Assuming you are done Bayar is up.

[Maurkov]

That triggers Leaf's readied action:

Leaf grabs the other scroll. With powerful wings the hippogriff launches into the air and flies to O14-P15, 75'.

Do we need LoS checks anymore? Where is Kor and what are each of you holding?

Now its Bayar's turn.

[Morbius]

Kor is nowhere to be seen... and Mits has only a sling on his hands

I still don't get what are you two planning to do... but anyway

MitS between rounds

Free action to shout:
"Shoot at them now! Then come and take cover behind one of the pillars"

[Morbius]

Wait a minute, actually that move is illegal Maurkov an Hippogriff has only average Maneuverability, so moving up is a double move and I believe it can only move up 3 squares for each 2 it moves forward (or something like that).


(and looking at that is how I discovered some time ago that animal devotion (fly) is not that good as people think)

[Maurkov]

I sketched it out to verify angles and such....

The hippogriff takes its turn on Leaf's initiative so it gets a double move. Leaf's ready action altered his initiative, so it acts now.

At speed 100' (double move, half speed while climbing), taking off at 60 degrees it could have gone 50' forward and 85' up. In this case it leveled off at 75'.

Does that work for you?

[Morbius]

I sketched it out to verify angles and such....

The hippogriff takes its turn on Leaf's initiative so it gets a double move. Leaf's ready action altered his initiative, so it acts now.

At speed 100' (double move, half speed while climbing), taking off at 60 degrees it could have gone 50' forward and 85' up. In this case it leveled off at 75'.

Does that work for you?

I don't know if it could use a double move on a readied action as you can only ready standard actions or faster and a double move usually lasts one full round, even if you are not the one moving. Indeed the mount share your initiative but in this new initiative you can only take one action this round

[stupnick]

the mount delayed waiting for the go command which was leaf's readied action.
leaf takes his readied action - mount go
mount then takes it whole delayed turn, which is a doubled move.

it's legal

[Morbius]

I believe it was ruled earlier that you cannot make mounts ready action but you can ready an action to make your mount do something. I guess delay is applied like this as well or else it would make no sense.

[Maurkov]

According to the mounted combat rules, "Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move."

I don't know if it can take any of the special initiative actions since it doesn't have its own initiative score.

Leaf's readied action was to take a scroll. When Leaf's readied action is triggered, the current initiative count becomes his initiative count, and the mount can move as he directs it, using its action.

[Bayar]

...........what ?

[Maurkov]

Where did I lose you?

• Mounts don't have their own initiative score.
• Mounts act on their rider's initiative.
• It is Leaf's initative when his readied action is triggered.
• Mounts use their own action to move.
• The mount takes a double move during Leaf's turn.

Which bullet points do you wish to challenge?

[Morbius]

Where did I lose you?

• Mounts don't have their own initiative score.
  

Which bullet points do you wish to challenge?

correct

Where did I lose you?

• Mounts act on their rider's initiative.
  

Which bullet points do you wish to challenge?

correct again

Where did I lose you?

• It is Leaf's initative when his readied action is triggered.
  

Which bullet points do you wish to challenge?

Indeed however in this 'round' Leaf can only take a single action due to time limits, so how could it's mount take a full round action?


EDIT: Also a little quote from an article from the wizards

Moving While Mounted

When you and your mount move, the two of you use your mount's speed rating, adjusted for the mount's encumbrance and the terrain. Because your mount takes you along with it when it moves, a move for your mount also counts as a move for you. (See Rules of the Game, All About Movement for notes on what constitutes movement.) Even though you're not propelling yourself, you still spend time moving. So, for example, if you and your mount move, neither you nor your mount can take a 5-foot step during the same turn.

So your mount taking a double move would count as a 3rd action for YOU on the round

[Maurkov]

I believe RAW supersedes RotG articles. "A move for your mount also counts as a move for you" makes it sound like I couldn't put a weapon away (move action) while my mount was taking a double move (move action, move action).

in this 'round' Leaf can only take a single action due to time limits, so how could it's mount take a full round action?

That's more persuasive. A mount can't take a double move during a surprise round.

But I'm still not convinced. There are restrictions on taking full round actions during mount movement, but they only apply to attacks and to spell casting. Any other full round of actions can be taken before or after a mount's double movement. So mount up, pick up an object, ride(x2) is a legal move. Leaf's mount up, (wait,) pick up an object, ride(x2) is equivalent. That (wait) would usually manifest as a decrease in the initiative count (or a roll over into the following turn). In this case, though, I think everything happened on 15.

Now lets see if a ref already ninja'd me.

[Morbius]

Let me try a little more then, you have been saying that the mount acton on Leaf's initiative and you are completely correct. That means that both of them act at the same time, so I ask of you, during Leaf's 1st action to mount the beast time did no pass for the mount? Of course it did, however it spent it's 1st action doing nothing.

Then someone will come and say but the mount was delaying it's actions, but I ask you, if the mount acts on Leaf's initiative how can it delay it's action if Leaf didn't? The answer is it can't, not unless Leaf delay his action as well, so if Leaf has only one single action left, so does the mount.

That is also why a character can make a full ranged attack from a moving mount but cannot make a melee one. An archer will continualy fire arrows as his mounts move while a knight will have to wait for it's mount to spend at least one move action(and during that time he can take a move action himself if he wants: loose shield whatever) to then make a single attack using it's second action

[Maurkov]

I ask of you, during Leaf's 1st action to mount the beast time did no pass for the mount? Of course it did, however it spent it's 1st action doing nothing.

So do you maintain that if Leaf had chosen to mount up (move action) and ride off, the mount could only take a single move? If he had drawn a weapon (move action) and then mounted up (move action), the mount couldn't move? Is there textual support for this?

"[T]he mount uses its action to move." is still compelling, to me. The mount has taken no actions. Therefore it has two actions to take-- at any point during Leaf's turn (barring the special rules for attacking and casting).

[Morbius]

So do you maintain that if Leaf had chosen to mount up (move action) and ride off, the mount could only take a single move? If he had drawn a weapon (move action) and then mounted up (move action), the mount couldn't move? Is there textual support for this?

Yes and yes unless he succeded on a ride check for Fast mount.
As for textual support give me some time


EDIT: You know something? Lets continue the match as it is and continue the discussion on the waiting room if I am right in the end we let this slide if you are right good for you ok? Bayar please go.

[chilepepper]

High Ref chilepepper

I kind of skimmed, so forgive me if I repeat someone else. This is not an official ruling, I'm just pointing something out that I don't think was mentioned.

As I see it, everything is legal EXCEPT, when you take your readied action, all you can do is what you readied and take a 5' step if you haven't moved. You can't direct a mount during your readied action unless that IS your readied action. Unless the mount has above animal intelligence, it doesn't move unless you direct it.

[Morbius]

High Ref chilepepper

I kind of skimmed, so forgive me if I repeat someone else. This is not an official ruling, I'm just pointing something out that I don't think was mentioned.

As I see it, everything is legal EXCEPT, when you take your readied action, all you can do is what you readied and take a 5' step if you haven't moved. You can't direct a mount during your readied action unless that IS your readied action. Unless the mount has above animal intelligence, it doesn't move unless you direct it.

But the question is, can you use a single standard action to direct your mount for a double move?
Anyway let this be as it is let's continue any discussion in the waiting room.



EDIT: On the other hand Maurkov you guys might want to lose some weight or leave some stuff behind or else that pretty bird won't even fly due to medium load and all.

[Maurkov]

This is not an official ruling...

As I see it, everything is legal EXCEPT, when you take your readied action, all you can do is what you readied and take a 5' step if you haven't moved. You can't direct a mount during your readied action unless that IS your readied action. Unless the mount has above animal intelligence, it doesn't move unless you direct it.

That's an interesting point. Guiding a mount isn't an action, though. With the strict interpretation, you can't actually ready an action to move while mounted. If you'd like to say that with your ref hat on, let me know to what point I should rewind. Morbius and I are still in disagreement over the number of move actions a mount can take when the rider has less than a full action available.

Anyway let this be as it is let's continue any discussion in the waiting room.

Can't we have the refs come here instead? We've written so much already.

EDIT: On the other hand Maurkov you guys might want to lose some weight or leave some stuff behind or else that pretty bird won't even fly due to medium load and all.

The 'griff can carry 519 as a light load thanks to augmented summoning.

[Bayar]

That's an interesting point. Guiding a mount isn't an action, though. With the strict interpretation, you can't actually ready an action to move while mounted. If you'd like to say that with your ref hat on, let me know to what point I should rewind. Morbius and I are still in disagreement over the number of move actions a mount can take when the rider has less than a full action available.
Can't we have the refs come here instead? We've written so much already.The 'griff can carry 519 as a light load thanks to augmented summoning.

Yes, but the ready action says you can only perform the readied action and a 5ft step. So tehnically, you have to ready it even though it is not an action.

[chilepepper]

Alright, I'll put on my hat.

High Ref chilepepper

Since you can ready anything equal to or less than a standard action, I rule that things that are technically "not an action" still fall under the restrictions for a readied action. You can ready one action and take a 5' step, but nothing else. So you can't take a "not an action" during a readied action, but you can ready a "not an action" if you want to.

If you ready an action to direct your mount, it may make a double move. RAW is clear the the mount is using it's own turn-action allotment to move. The mount taking a full round action in the middle of your standard action is irrelevant since your standard action is in the middle (or interrupting) someone else's action.


****

So, in this case, you could not have readied an action to grab the scroll and direct the mount. The rewind goes back to the readying of the action, Leaf - round 4.

Also, since it was just mentioned
Heroes of Battle pg68 says

... if carrying a medium or heavy load, it's [flying] speed is reduced by 1/3.