Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

[Talic]

High Ref Talic

I'm going to put a temporary hold on this match, to bring up a point of reference.

I need a moment to research that point, however.

More to come in a moment or three.

Can't find it at the moment, but I'm sure that in a previous round, in the same time frame of Chile 2 (round 32), we nailed down some hard-and-fasts to mounted movement. The overall consensus of that was that animals acted when you direct them, albeit the text that they act on your initiative. The reason that I remember is that for many of those questions, I was the one asking them. If memory serves, it was a mounted lancer in a concurrent round/match that had the question asked, though Chile 2 vs Maurkov that had the initial questions asked (round 32). However, I'm having difficulty locating that match. There was also a massive debacle concerning spot modifiers to bluff rolls there, not that that's relevant.

Anyhow, as I don't have anything to add in that can be verified at the moment, game on.

[chilepepper]

((I knew I should have left my hat in the closet.))

[Talic]

Posted to let chile know it's safe to wear hats.

[Morbius]

I really don't wanted for this match to stay on hold for so long, let's leave it as it is and continue...

[Maurkov]

Leaf could have accomplished the same thing with a delay. His Dex bonus is higher than Kor's so he'd still have acted next even if his init slipped to 14.

Are you also dropping the single move/double move question?

[Talic]

Fair enough. To Note the following, however:

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In response to "a move action for your mount is a move action for you:

SRD: (mounted combat)

Combat while Mounted

With a DC 5 Ride check, you can guide your mount with your knees so as to use both hands to attack or defend yourself. This is a free action.

When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can’t make a full attack. Even at your mount’s full speed, you don’t take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.

If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance.

You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a -4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed), at a -8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally
Casting Spells while Mounted

You can cast a spell normally if your mount moves up to a normal move (its speed) either before or after you cast. If you have your mount move both before and after you cast a spell, then you’re casting the spell while the mount is moving, and you have to make a Concentration check due to the vigorous motion (DC 10 + spell level) or lose the spell. If the mount is running (quadruple speed), you can cast a spell when your mount has moved up to twice its speed, but your Concentration check is more difficult due to the violent motion (DC 15 + spell level).


The underlined portions would not be possible if move actions of the animal cost move actions by the pc. Thus, we can assume that Primary source (SRD) trumps tertiary source (Web article). Unless your mount is not trained for combat, readying an action to move a horse is a standard action, which readies a non-action (free action).

By Strict interpretation of SRD, it is not your initiative count when you direct a mount as a readied action (initiative count doesn't change until after move is completed), thus it would not be able to move. However, it's been ruled otherwise, for simplicity, to be, "your mount acts when you direct it".

Match Free to resume, barring any other ref involvement.

[Morbius]

Are you also dropping the single move/double move question?

Nope, if you are insisting on this so much during the match I can't help but get a feeling that you wanted to continue to do that as part of some strategy.

Fair enough. To Note the following, however:

Spoiler

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In response to "a move action for your mount is a move action for you:

SRD: (mounted combat)

Combat while Mounted

With a DC 5 Ride check, you can guide your mount with your knees so as to use both hands to attack or defend yourself. This is a free action.

When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can’t make a full attack. Even at your mount’s full speed, you don’t take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.

If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance.

You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a -4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed), at a -8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally
Casting Spells while Mounted

You can cast a spell normally if your mount moves up to a normal move (its speed) either before or after you cast. If you have your mount move both before and after you cast a spell, then you’re casting the spell while the mount is moving, and you have to make a Concentration check due to the vigorous motion (DC 10 + spell level) or lose the spell. If the mount is running (quadruple speed), you can cast a spell when your mount has moved up to twice its speed, but your Concentration check is more difficult due to the violent motion (DC 15 + spell level).


The underlined portions would not be possible if move actions of the animal cost move actions by the pc. Thus, we can assume that Primary source (SRD) trumps tertiary source (Web article). Unless your mount is not trained for combat, readying an action to move a horse is a standard action, which readies a non-action (free action).

By Strict interpretation of SRD, it is not your initiative count when you direct a mount as a readied action (initiative count doesn't change until after move is completed), thus it would not be able to move. However, it's been ruled otherwise, for simplicity, to be, "your mount acts when you direct it".

Reply to this:

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My point is not that a mount moving costs an action from the rider. My point is as they have the same initiative they act at the same time. You can't do a full round action then have your mount have another full round action. The two creatures act as one, except that one does the moving while the other to do something at the same time

That is why "If you have your mount move both before and after you cast a spell, then you’re casting the spell while the mount is moving" meaning that during at least one of the move actions of the mount the rider used a standard action to cast a spell, not before or after. If the rider wanted to avoid the mount moving while he casts a spell he would have to make the mount spend one of it's actions to stand still while he casts the spell. That is my point here. During Leaf's mounting action the beast spent it's 1st action for that round standing still waiting, then Leat spent a standard action to make the mount move, however a second move from the mount, would mean that chile would need to spend a new action standing still over it while it moved (and in this case the mount would need a new action to move since it spent it's 1st action waiting for Leaf).

That is why you can't full attack on melee even if your mount do all the moving, you spend your 1st action standing still on the mount

[Maurkov]

Well, the "strategy" there was to stay outside MitS's first range increment.

I would like it settled, though, because at some point it might be more important than that. I can easily see a case where Leaf would want to draw a scroll, cast from it, and then have the mount take a single move (for ranging purposes). Or ready a shield before taking a double move away (for extra AC against the AoO).

If I understand your position, that the mount's actions must be synchronous with the rider's, there would be no time left for the mount to move after the spell was cast, or to take a second move after the shield was readied. For non-attack, non-spell casting actions, by RAW I don't see any synchronization requirement.

[Maurkov]

I'll adjust Leaf's Init to 14 based on the Ready discussion, but the double move was upheld on appeal.

Bayar, I believe it's Kor's turn.

[Talic]

Reply to this:

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My point is not that a mount moving costs an action from the rider. My point is as they have the same initiative they act at the same time. You can't do a full round action then have your mount have another full round action. The two creatures act as one, except that one does the moving while the other to do something at the same time

That is why "If you have your mount move both before and after you cast a spell, then you’re casting the spell while the mount is moving" meaning that during at least one of the move actions of the mount the rider used a standard action to cast a spell, not before or after. If the rider wanted to avoid the mount moving while he casts a spell he would have to make the mount spend one of it's actions to stand still while he casts the spell. That is my point here. During Leaf's mounting action the beast spent it's 1st action for that round standing still waiting, then Leat spent a standard action to make the mount move, however a second move from the mount, would mean that chile would need to spend a new action standing still over it while it moved (and in this case the mount would need a new action to move since it spent it's 1st action waiting for Leaf).

That is why you can't full attack on melee even if your mount do all the moving, you spend your 1st action standing still on the mount

Reply:

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You can do a full attack when your mount moves. Just not a full MELEE attack. You may have the mount move, fire a full round ranged attack (-4 penalty to all attacks), and then have the mount continue moving again. Heck, you can do it while the mount does a full-round RUN (you take a full-round full attack with arrows at midpoint, -8 to all attacks, mount takes full round action to run at x4 speed).

SRD:

You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a -4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed), at a -8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally

This shows you can take a full round action while your mount moves. There is no reference anywhere in the SRD to movement by your combat-trained mount costing rider actions. This text here contradicts that philosophy, also. You may not make more than a single Melee attack when your mount moves, however, you are still fully allowed to perform other actions. That is a specific special case, where it prohibits a specific action. It's not doing it because you don't have a full round action available. It's doing it because you just can't do it. If your mount moves, it does not matter if you use a Belt of Battle for an extra Full round action. You cannot make more than one melee attack. That's RAW. This other mess? About how mount's movement costs PC actions? It's not supported by RAW. When your mount moves, you can draw a potion and attack. You can ready a shield and attack. You can do any move action and still attack. Or you can just attack, and forego a move action that you have. You didn't use it. Even if you chose a full attack action, however, you get one attack. No more. Because that's the RAW.

You don't spend any action standing still. Yes, that rule represents the time it takes the mount to get there. However, it's perfectly legal to do the following: Direct mount to double move to an enemy(free). Attack enemy(standard). Drop weapon(free). Draw weapon(move).

There is no restriction that your move must come when the mount is moving. You don't spend your first action standing still.

By the strictest interpretation of the limitation on melee attacks, you couldn't even perform maneuvers that allow 2 attacks as a standard action, or use feats such as dual strike, that do the same.

Basically, the mounted combat section lists many actions you can and cannot do. This does not affect your total actions available, only what you're allowed to use those actions for. The text specifically allows the normal use of move actions while mounted. Thus, it's legal to perform any move action while mounted, unless the nature of being mounted prevents the action from being possible. You may similarly have a mount double move and still cast, or fire ranged attacks, or even melee attack. There is no text saying otherwise.

[Bayar]

Will have to wait for me guys, I am currently trying to fix my NEW computer. It does not give sound which is annoying as ****ing hell ****s.

[Maurkov]

So, moving this battle forward is less important than... sound? I see how we rate.

[Morbius]

So, moving this battle forward is less important than... sound? I see how we rate.

I think he means that the PC is out to the tech support place/store whatever... (very anoying, mine got stuck there for almost 5 months)

[Bayar]

I think he means that the PC is out to the tech support place/store whatever... (very anoying, mine got stuck there for almost 5 months)

Dropped it off today. the tehnicians there are baffled. It seems that the drivers are installed properly (****ing tech support questioning my ability to install drivers) but still no sound. they said 2-7 days to find out what happened.

On another unrelated note, I lost all my books except for the PHB.

[Maurkov]

Lost like, "I can't remember where I put them," or lost like, "there was this tornado...?"

You're having a tough week, Bayar. I'm sorry.

On your comp, did the OS detect the hardware? Did the right driver show up in device manager (going out on a limb and assuming it's windows)? Did you have the speaker cables plugged into the right ports? Inside, is the headphone jack wired to the card?

[Bayar]

Lost like, "I can't remember where I put them," or lost like, "there was this tornado...?"

You're having a tough week, Bayar. I'm sorry.

On your comp, did the OS detect the hardware? Did the right driver show up in device manager (going out on a limb and assuming it's windows)? Did you have the speaker cables plugged into the right ports? Inside, is the headphone jack wired to the card?

Yes to all of the above.

I will try to find the LOS checks so I can continue the match...

Edit: Need LOS...oh wow.

[Maurkov]

I'm pretty sure that Leaf, Cyn, and the hippogriff are visible from all points in the arena, and that you are invisible.

[Morbius]

That triggers Leaf's readied action:

Leaf grabs the other scroll. With powerful wings the hippogriff launches into the air and flies to O14-P15, 75'.

Do we need LoS checks anymore? Where is Kor and what are each of you holding?

Now its Bayar's turn.

Here is your LOS Bayar

[Bayar]

I'm pretty sure that Leaf, Cyn, and the hippogriff are visible from all points in the arena, and that you are invisible.

Joy. If I am within range of charging, I will charge Cyn. If not, I will just modify my turn.

Kor - Round 4

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Charging Cyn, raging and power attacking(2 points of BAB into 4 points of damage.

I appear in the closest square to Cyn and swing a Greatsword at him.

Attack:(1d20+10)[13]
Damage:(2d6+16)[24]

Stats:

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HP:25/25
AC: 11 T: 7 FF: 10 (Dunno what bonuses with Prot VS Chaos...)
Crystals of returning are equipped on: MW spiked chain, Sungliin
Location: Y5
Buffs: Invisibility 3/30
Prot VS Chaos: 3/10
Charge: +2 Atk -2 AC 1/1
Rage: +4 STR, CON -2 AC +2 WILL 1/7
Everything on sheet is on my persona.

Not done.

[Morbius]

... Bayar they are 70 feet above the ground flying

[Bayar]

... Bayar they are 70 feet abot the ground flying

Wait, what ?

damn, I cant jump that high...

[Morbius]

As I just said the are at O14-P15, mounted on a hippogriff flying at 75 feet high.

[stupnick]

heh.. that changes things huh : )

[Morbius]

Since we are at this you are 75' above the lowest area correct? So you are in fact just 55' above MitS right?

[Maurkov]

That is correct. We're 75' above the arena floor; 55' above the top of the ziggurat.

Damage:(2d6+16)[24]

Suddenly this flying thing seems like a really good idea.

[Morbius]

That is correct. We're 75' above the arena floor; 55' above the top of the ziggurat.Suddenly this flying thing seems like a really good idea.

Does 5d6 falling damage (for each one) seems like a good idea for you?

And since we are at it if you are riding without a saddle do you even have 50% chance to remain mounted or do you simply fall if unconcious?

[stupnick]

Ooo you threatening to knock us off the mount.. that's not kewl :p


first you gotta get to us

[Maurkov]

Unless you've got a ranged trip attack, I don't see the danger. If you KO someone, well, does the extra 5d6 matter?

Anyone want to figure out how much damage Cyn would do if he landed on you?

[Morbius]

Anyone want to figure out how much damage Cyn would do if he landed on you?

I was actually thinking about that as well and how we should pick on what square he falls. I mean I don't think he could just pick one, so would it be a d4 or did I missed some rule?

[stupnick]

omg the Cyn bomb.. it wouldn't be the first....

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...t=88539&page=5

top post...

i threw myself out of the tree at drago in my last fight.