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  1. - Top - End - #121
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

    A couple of things I noticed:

    1. The Hippogrif is large size but I dont think that 2 medium creatures can ride it at the same time. It does not say in any rulebook that it is allowed, and by going with the Horse rules, I'd say you cant. (since you need a large mount to use in the first place)

    2. You are both riding bareback, so you both take -5 penalty to ride checks. You need an exotic saddle BTW...

    3. Think that a hippogrif is ill suited for as a mount (I might be wrong) so you take another -5 penalty to ride checks.

    4. According to the "Stay in Saddle" rules, you have to make a ride check to stay in saddle if your mount rears or bolts unexpectantly or if you take damage.

    5. According to the Hippogrif rules on "Training a Hippogrif", it says that you have to train it before it can bear a rider in combat. That would imply that he is not trained for war and that you need to roll ride checks for it to do anything at all, since it is currently in combat...

    So yeah, awaiting the refs with ref hats on...
    Last edited by Bayar; 2008-10-06 at 11:33 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #122
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

    1. The Hippogrif is large size but I dont think that 2 medium creatures can ride it at the same time. It does not say in any rulebook that it is allowed, and by going with the Horse rules, I'd say you cant. (since you need a large mount to use in the first place)
    We're well within light encumbrance. I don't see why a man and child (sized man) couldn't ride together.

    2. You are both riding bareback, so you both take -5 penalty to ride checks. You need an exotic saddle BTW...
    Exotic is debatable. Hippogriffs middle part is distinctly horse-like. Yes, there's a -5 for no saddle.

    3. Think that a hippogrif is ill suited for as a mount (I might be wrong) so you take another -5 penalty to ride checks.
    Again, horse shaped. It's not like we're riding a dire bat or astral construct or something.

    4. According to the "Stay in Saddle" rules, you have to make a ride check to stay in saddle if your mount rears or bolts unexpectantly or if you take damage.
    True, might be a problem for Cyn. Leaf makes this check automatically, even with the -5 for lacking a saddle.

    5. According to the Hippogrif rules on "Training a Hippogrif", it says that you have to train it before it can bear a rider in combat. That would imply that he is not trained for war and that you need to roll ride checks for it to do anything at all, since it is currently in combat...
    It attacks by default. I think that qualifies as trained for war. It's also beyond tame (for Leaf). Sure, lets let a ref adjudicate whether it can serve as a mount.
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  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

    2. It says so in the PHB, in the exotic saddle section...specifically says Hippogrif.


    1. Why I brought this up ? Because it can be abused in a team game, like it is right now. Cyn does not have ranks in ride skil so he lets the other guy control the mount. How do you think this sounds ? Fair ? Yeah, for you it is fair. For everyone else...not so much.
    Last edited by Bayar; 2008-10-06 at 11:58 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

    High Ref Talic

    I'll research the number of riders per mount issue. However, as hippogriff is specifically listed in the exotic saddle section, I feel it's safe to assume that it is capable of serving as a mount.

    I am currently having difficulty accessing the SRD from work, but here are the items that need to be referenced:

    Number of riders: Does anywhere specifically allow or disallow this? Does the mounted combat, handle animal, or riding description specifically reference the mount as being able to be trained to carry a single rider?

    For the Hippogriff and the auto-combatant issue: While I'm not sure I agree with Bayar's interpretation, in order for the hippogriff to be treated differently than any other mount, there must be explicit text indicating that the mount should have different attack rules than a horse or mule. Otherwise, while it's being used as a mount, it must follow all rules for a mount. When it is not being mounted, unless there is a concrete way of communicating with the creature, Handle Animal checks will need to be used to command the hippogriff.

  5. - Top - End - #125
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

    For the Hippogriff and the auto-combatant issue: While I'm not sure I agree with Bayar's interpretation, in order for the hippogriff to be treated differently than any other mount, there must be explicit text indicating that the mount should have different attack rules than a horse or mule.
    Well, the heavy horse entry looks like this:

    Full Attack: 2 hooves -1 melee (1d6+1*)
    At 3 HD and STR 16, that means it's taking -5 to all attacks.

    The war-trained Heavy Warhorse:

    Full Attack: 2 hooves +6 melee (1d6+4) and bite +1 melee (1d4+2)
    No penalty (and more strength).

    The Hippogriff entry looks like this:

    Full Attack: 2 claws +6 melee (1d4+4) and bite +1 melee (1d8+2)
    That's no penalty, which leads me to believe it's war-ready. Smarter than a horse, the hippogriff is a magical beast. I figured Leaf would be using animal empathy (which can be used on magical beasts), but that he automatically succeeds because the summoned creature is his willing servant. If he has to use HA (and doesn't auto-succeed because it's conjured), I need a DC, and whether that means I have to rewind to the last round to make a check.

    Maybe I should have mentioned this tactic in the main thread, but that spoils the surprise.

    Edit: Huh. Claws do less damage that hoofs? What an evolutionary dead end.
    Last edited by Maurkov; 2008-10-07 at 12:45 AM.
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  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

    Quote Originally Posted by Maurkov View Post
    Well, the heavy horse entry looks like this:

    At 3 HD and STR 16, that means it's taking -5 to all attacks.

    The war-trained Heavy Warhorse:

    No penalty (and more strength).

    The Hippogriff entry looks like this:

    That's no penalty, which leads me to believe it's war-ready. Smarter than a horse, the hippogriff is a magical beast. I figured Leaf would be using animal empathy (which can be used on magical beasts), but that he automatically succeeds because the summoned creature is his willing servant.

    Maybe I should have mentioned this tactic in the main thread, but that spoils the surprise.

    Edit: Huh. Claws do less damage that hoofs? What an evolutionary dead end.
    Hoofs do bludgeoning damage that breaks bones and stuff. Claws only rend the flesh.

    Edit: And unless trained for mounting combat, he is not war-ready, regardless of the stats. remember, it uses those stats to hunt as well, but having a biped or a couple on his back might hinder him from doing what he knows...
    Last edited by Bayar; 2008-10-07 at 12:48 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

    Check out GURPS. Being bludgeoned is less un-good than sliced (pierced is even worst). Equally hard, I'd rather be thumped with a baseball bat than slashed with a katana. You?

    And no, I'm not asking a high ref to change the hippogriff's damage, just making an observation.
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  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

    Quote Originally Posted by Maurkov View Post
    Check out GURPS. Being bludgeoned is less un-good than sliced (pierced is even worst). Equally hard, I'd rather be thumped with a baseball bat than slashed with a katana. You?

    And no, I'm not asking a high ref to change the hippogriff's damage, just making an observation.
    Baseball bat and katana are not equal on the weapon threat chart. More like warhammer and katana. Or kitchen knife and bat. plus, if you are hit once with the bat, you can get internal bleeding that will kill you anyway.
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  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Default Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

    High Ref Talic

    Further research (and about 30 secs of SRD access).

    Noting whether attacks are treated as secondary or not is not enough to determine training. All hippogriffs have the same stats laid out in the SRD. All hippogriffs must undergo 6 weeks of training to become capable of bearing riders. Nothing in the entry suggests that all hippogriffs come with this standard. In fact, the listing of the need to train hippogriffs actually supports the contrary.

    Thus, the hippogriff is not trained for combat riding.

    Second, summoned creatures automatically follow your instructions to the best of their ability. However, if you cannot communicate with the animal, the commands must be simple in nature. As the animal isn't capable of bearing a rider in combat, "let me ride you" would fall outside the bounds of that.

    I'll give a reasonable amount of time for rebuttals before rewinding the match to the first illegal action.

  10. - Top - End - #130
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

    Well, darn. I smeared the difference between "willing" and "can" and assumed that the summoning-borne obedience would carry further. Looks like Leaf could, as a full round action, attempt a DC 30 HA check to allow the non-animal to perform a trick it doesn't know, but that seems like a long shot at second level. Where do we pick up? At the top of Leaf's round, just after the beast appeared?

    I should have conjured a bat, which doesn't have the 6 week training requirement.
    Last edited by Maurkov; 2008-10-07 at 02:25 AM.
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  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Default Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

    Hum... does the won't obey riding commands also means he can't mount it? You said yourself you could use a DC 30 HA check to make it obey you so I don't see how the action was illegal...
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  12. - Top - End - #132
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    Default Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

    I believe the illegal part was not spending a full round action to make the check.
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  13. - Top - End - #133
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    Default Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

    High Ref Talic

    Ref Text Wall +3 (any can read, spoilered to keep thread clean):
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    As it's a summoned creature, we're not following mount rules for it unless it's being used as a mount.

    Further, we've been referencing this as a Hippogriff. It's not. It's a Celestial Hippogriff. In this case, it makes a difference. Celestial creatures have a minimum intelligence of 3, and a native plane that is celestial.

    All creatures with intelligence 3 or greater have the capacity to understand language. Going with the premise that the language such a creature could understand would be the default language of its native environment, then the hippogriff can understand Celestial. If the hippogriff summoner can speak Celestial, then the animal will follow any command that can be relayed to it.

    If not, the celestial creature will follow the rules for summon monster. It will attack your opponents to the best of its ability. This precludes riding.

    If you wish to bypass that, you must be able to communicate with the creature. Handle animal can be used to do that, normally, for animals. Not magical beasts. Epic Handle animal has usages for handle animal that apply to magical beasts, but I see no DC's for handling or pushing, only for training and rearing. Thus, we have a case where the rules for training the creature are outlined, but not the rules for accessing that training. Sigh.

    Further, the rules listed in the Monster entry for hippogriff contradict the standard rules for training magical beasts. Thus, we'll be treating the Hippogriff entry as Primary Source for hippogriff training. DC 25 to train. Since Handling and Pushing DC's aren't listed anywhere, we'll go with the same DC's listed in the Skill entry for animals, unless anyone has an objection to that.

    First thing anyone trying to ride the animal will need to do is Push the animalmagical beast to not attack, to override the Summon Monster spell's basic commands. Then you can deal with pushing it for riding. All DC's will follow Handle Animal entry.



    Based on all this, the first illegal action happened in post 65. Again, I'll give reasonable time to offer any counter arguments. In the absence of any, I'll reverse play to that point in the AM.
    Last edited by Talic; 2008-10-08 at 02:36 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #134
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    Default Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

    I wont say anything more at least
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  15. - Top - End - #135
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    Further, we've been referencing this as a Hippogriff. It's not.
    It is.

    Not to veer off topic,
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    but "[a]ny creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise)." The celestial template doesn't note otherwise, so it's common; Stupid but RAW. It's off topic because regular hippogriffs are INT 2.


    So the Animal Empathy class feature would not count as "communicating" for purposes of telling it not to attack?
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  16. - Top - End - #136
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    Default Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

    High Ref Talic

    Assuming you're referring to the druid's Wild Empathy ability, no.

    By Text, the ability improves attitude, which could possibly get it to stop attacking you, unless it were magically compelled to. (thus, you cannot use wild empathy to stop an opponent's summoned creature from attacking you, as it is forced to attack regardless of attitude, by the text of the spell).

    But you're not trying to get it to stop attacking you. You're getting it to stop attacking someone else. And making it like you is not an effective way to communicate "don't attack him".

    To qualify as communicating a command, the listed text of the ability you're using must directly alter the creature's ACTIONS. Simply modifying attitude wouldn't qualify as communicating a command.

  17. - Top - End - #137
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    Default Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

    ((Back from vacation. Will post shortly.))
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  18. - Top - End - #138
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    Default Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

    ((I'm going to need more clarification about how Leaf is able to direct his summoned creatures. I'll ask in the main thread.))

    Leaf Round 4 Init 15

    As Leaf completes the scroll, a feisty looking hippogriff appears X14-Y15. Having no control over the beast, it chooses MitS as his dodge buddy, launches forward, and attacks.

    Fly: X14-Y15 0' to T14-U15 20' (60' of move) to P14-Q15 20' (+20' of move). Having traveled more than 50', the 'griff doesn't have to land.
    claw attack - (1d20+11)[15] damage - (1d4+6)[9] miss chances are rolled by refs?

    For those that can see Leaf,
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    Leaf drops the scroll and casts a spell.
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    entangle centered R18-S19; 40' radius; DC Reflex 14.
    I'd like a ref to tell me how visible that is.

    He steps 5' to Y14 and picks up one of the scrolls dropped by Cyn.
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    The scroll of ESNAII.


    He whispers to Cyn,
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    "'Ware the Entangle. It covers South and West."


    I'd like a ref to adjudicate the passive sense checks,
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    the results of which Leaf will also relay to Cyn.


    Done.

    Status
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    Leaf
    Passive Listen - (1d20+9)[10] Passive Spot - (1d20+8)[14]
    HP16
    AC20 t14 ff17
    Location: Y13
    Hands: Shield, Scroll of ESNAII
    Active Spells: ESNAII (15 rounds)

    Augmented Ashbound HIPPOGRIFF
    Passive Listen - (1d20+4)[6] Passive Spot - (1d20+8)[9]
    HP 31
    AC 15 (16 vs. MitS via dodge feat) (–1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13
    Location P14-Q15 20'
    full stats
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    Large Magical Beast; HD 3d10+15 (31 hp); Init +2; Spd 50 ft. (10 squares), fly 100 ft. (average); AC 15 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13; BAB +3/+13; Attack: 2 claws +11 melee (1d4+6) and bite +6 melee (1d8+3); Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.; SA -; SQ Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent; Saves F+8 R+5 W+2; Abilities ST22 DX15 CN20 IN2 WS13 CH8; Skills: Listen +4, Spot +8; Feats: Dodge, Wingover

    Hippogriffs are aggressive flying creatures that combine features of horses and giant eagles. Voracious omnivores, hippogriffs will hunt humanoids as readily as any other meal. A typical hippogriff is 9 feet long, has a wingspan of 20 feet, and weighs 1,000 pounds.

    COMBAT
    Hippogriffs dive at their prey and strike with their clawed forelegs. When they cannot dive, they slash with claws and beak. Mated pairs and flights of these creatures attack in concert, diving repeatedly to drive away or kill intruders. Hippogriffs fight to the death to defend their nests and their hatchlings, which are prized as aerial mounts and fetch a handsome price in many civilized areas.

    Skills: Hippogriffs have a +4 racial bonus on Spot checks.


    Bud
    Passive Listen - (1d20+5)[9] Passive Spot - (1d20+5)[6]
    HP13
    AC20 t12 ff18
    Location: Y13
    Active Command: Guard
    SQ: Scent
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  19. - Top - End - #139
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    Default Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

    You can roll miss chances if you want it's just concealment. So... Unless the hippogriff has SR a invisible barriers deflects his attack (hehe)
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  20. - Top - End - #140
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    Default Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

    I might as well get into practice. concealment low hits - (1d100)[83]

    Edit: I have offended the RNG.
    Last edited by Maurkov; 2008-10-13 at 09:33 AM.
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  21. - Top - End - #141
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    Default Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

    so is it my turn now then??

    also how do you not have control over your summon?? you can talk to it and give it commands, it speaks common.
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  22. - Top - End - #142
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    Default Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

    A Hippogriff is a 2 INT magical beast. It doesn't speak a regular language and it's immune to Speak with Animal. While I don't agree with most of what Talic ruled , if Leaf can't communicate* with it, he can't make it not attack. Leaf will have to get a Mindlink tatoo for the next battle. Edit: Mindlink has an Int 3 lower bound.

    If you'd like to call in Kyeudo for GM Override, you are welcome to. I was feeling selfish for delaying the match this long.

    We should get a ref to summarize the results of Leaf's turn (for those who can observe it), but yes, it's your turn.

    *'Communicate' has been defined far more strictly than I had anticipated.
    Last edited by Maurkov; 2008-10-13 at 11:34 AM.
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  23. - Top - End - #143
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

    So, who's turn is now ?
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    Default Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

    if i am thinking correctly it is my turn, but before i post Maurkov is requesting a post from the refs....
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  25. - Top - End - #145
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    Default Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

    going to attempt to get another los check in here so we can get this moving, but it seems refs don't want to come and do one..
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  26. - Top - End - #146
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    Default Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

    GM Kyeudo

    Alright. Summary of Leaf's turn for those that can see him.
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    Leaf casts a spell from a scroll, summoning a hippogriff in X14-Y15. The hippogriff flies to P14-Q15 (20' up) and attacks MitS, but it's attacks fail to connect.

    Leaf then drops the scroll and casts a spell. The area within 40' of the R18-S19 intersection becomes subject to an Entangle effect, DC 14 Reflex saves for everyone there. The effect is visible unless the plants are under an invisibility effect.

    Leaf moves toY14 and picks up one of the scrolls dropped by Cyn. He whispers to Cyn.


    At least, that's what seems to have occurred to me. As for LoS, I don't want to try to untangle that without knowing what is going on. I'll leave that to someone with a clue, lest I screw it up badly.
    Last edited by Kyeudo; 2008-10-20 at 01:17 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #147
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    Default Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

    LOS ?
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  28. - Top - End - #148
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    Default Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

    yes... so i know where everyone is located, if i can see anyone, and the other little joyous things that come out of LOS checks...
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  29. - Top - End - #149
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    Default Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

    Lets do the LoS ref a favor and repost our most recent stat blocks. It's not a treat to have to paw through 5 pages of postings to find everyone's last known position.

    Here's mine

    Last move: Round 4 Init 15
    Stat block:
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    Leaf
    Passive Listen - (1d20+9)[10] Passive Spot - (1d20+8)[14]
    HP16
    AC20 t14 ff17
    Location: Y13
    Hands: Shield, Scroll of ESNAII
    Active Spells: ESNAII (15 rounds)
    Entangle centered R18-S19; 40' radius; DC Reflex 14. (20 rounds)

    Augmented Ashbound HIPPOGRIFF
    Passive Listen - (1d20+4)[6] Passive Spot - (1d20+8)[9]
    HP 31
    AC 15 (16 vs. MitS via dodge feat) (–1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13
    Location P14-Q15 20'
    full stats
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    Large Magical Beast; HD 3d10+15 (31 hp); Init +2; Spd 50 ft. (10 squares), fly 100 ft. (average); AC 15 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13; BAB +3/+13; Attack: 2 claws +11 melee (1d4+6) and bite +6 melee (1d8+3); Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.; SA -; SQ Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent; Saves F+8 R+5 W+2; Abilities ST22 DX15 CN20 IN2 WS13 CH8; Skills: Listen +4, Spot +8; Feats: Dodge, Wingover

    Hippogriffs are aggressive flying creatures that combine features of horses and giant eagles. Voracious omnivores, hippogriffs will hunt humanoids as readily as any other meal. A typical hippogriff is 9 feet long, has a wingspan of 20 feet, and weighs 1,000 pounds.

    COMBAT
    Hippogriffs dive at their prey and strike with their clawed forelegs. When they cannot dive, they slash with claws and beak. Mated pairs and flights of these creatures attack in concert, diving repeatedly to drive away or kill intruders. Hippogriffs fight to the death to defend their nests and their hatchlings, which are prized as aerial mounts and fetch a handsome price in many civilized areas.

    Skills: Hippogriffs have a +4 racial bonus on Spot checks.


    Bud
    Passive Listen - (1d20+5)[9] Passive Spot - (1d20+5)[6]
    HP13
    AC20 t12 ff18
    Location: Y13
    Active Command: Guard
    SQ: Scent
    Last edited by Maurkov; 2008-10-21 at 04:23 PM.
    Business Trip 6/7 - 6/18. I'll try to keep up.
    Gwydr

  30. - Top - End - #150
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    stupnick's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn

    my most recent stat block

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    stats
    Location Z14
    HP: 14/30 (after MiTS hits me)
    AC: 10
    T: 7 F: 11
    Never come between a Dwarf and his Ale
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    Made by Arokh


    Character Sheets
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    Arzeal
    Shylain
    Halia
    Krannin


    Arena Characters
    Cyn
    Fannir


    Awesome Runic Dwarf Avatar by Bayar

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