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2008-10-06, 11:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn
A couple of things I noticed:
1. The Hippogrif is large size but I dont think that 2 medium creatures can ride it at the same time. It does not say in any rulebook that it is allowed, and by going with the Horse rules, I'd say you cant. (since you need a large mount to use in the first place)
2. You are both riding bareback, so you both take -5 penalty to ride checks. You need an exotic saddle BTW...
3. Think that a hippogrif is ill suited for as a mount (I might be wrong) so you take another -5 penalty to ride checks.
4. According to the "Stay in Saddle" rules, you have to make a ride check to stay in saddle if your mount rears or bolts unexpectantly or if you take damage.
5. According to the Hippogrif rules on "Training a Hippogrif", it says that you have to train it before it can bear a rider in combat. That would imply that he is not trained for war and that you need to roll ride checks for it to do anything at all, since it is currently in combat...
So yeah, awaiting the refs with ref hats on...Last edited by Bayar; 2008-10-06 at 11:33 PM.
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2008-10-06, 11:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2006
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- Oregon, USA
Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn
1. The Hippogrif is large size but I dont think that 2 medium creatures can ride it at the same time. It does not say in any rulebook that it is allowed, and by going with the Horse rules, I'd say you cant. (since you need a large mount to use in the first place)
2. You are both riding bareback, so you both take -5 penalty to ride checks. You need an exotic saddle BTW...
3. Think that a hippogrif is ill suited for as a mount (I might be wrong) so you take another -5 penalty to ride checks.
4. According to the "Stay in Saddle" rules, you have to make a ride check to stay in saddle if your mount rears or bolts unexpectantly or if you take damage.
5. According to the Hippogrif rules on "Training a Hippogrif", it says that you have to train it before it can bear a rider in combat. That would imply that he is not trained for war and that you need to roll ride checks for it to do anything at all, since it is currently in combat...Business Trip 6/7 - 6/18. I'll try to keep up.
Gwydr
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2008-10-06, 11:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn
2. It says so in the PHB, in the exotic saddle section...specifically says Hippogrif.
1. Why I brought this up ? Because it can be abused in a team game, like it is right now. Cyn does not have ranks in ride skil so he lets the other guy control the mount. How do you think this sounds ? Fair ? Yeah, for you it is fair. For everyone else...not so much.Last edited by Bayar; 2008-10-06 at 11:58 PM.
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2008-10-07, 12:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn
High Ref Talic
I'll research the number of riders per mount issue. However, as hippogriff is specifically listed in the exotic saddle section, I feel it's safe to assume that it is capable of serving as a mount.
I am currently having difficulty accessing the SRD from work, but here are the items that need to be referenced:
Number of riders: Does anywhere specifically allow or disallow this? Does the mounted combat, handle animal, or riding description specifically reference the mount as being able to be trained to carry a single rider?
For the Hippogriff and the auto-combatant issue: While I'm not sure I agree with Bayar's interpretation, in order for the hippogriff to be treated differently than any other mount, there must be explicit text indicating that the mount should have different attack rules than a horse or mule. Otherwise, while it's being used as a mount, it must follow all rules for a mount. When it is not being mounted, unless there is a concrete way of communicating with the creature, Handle Animal checks will need to be used to command the hippogriff.
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2008-10-07, 12:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oregon, USA
Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn
For the Hippogriff and the auto-combatant issue: While I'm not sure I agree with Bayar's interpretation, in order for the hippogriff to be treated differently than any other mount, there must be explicit text indicating that the mount should have different attack rules than a horse or mule.
Full Attack: 2 hooves -1 melee (1d6+1*)
The war-trained Heavy Warhorse:
Full Attack: 2 hooves +6 melee (1d6+4) and bite +1 melee (1d4+2)
The Hippogriff entry looks like this:
Full Attack: 2 claws +6 melee (1d4+4) and bite +1 melee (1d8+2)
Maybe I should have mentioned this tactic in the main thread, but that spoils the surprise.
Edit: Huh. Claws do less damage that hoofs? What an evolutionary dead end.Last edited by Maurkov; 2008-10-07 at 12:45 AM.
Business Trip 6/7 - 6/18. I'll try to keep up.
Gwydr
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2008-10-07, 12:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn
Hoofs do bludgeoning damage that breaks bones and stuff. Claws only rend the flesh.
Edit: And unless trained for mounting combat, he is not war-ready, regardless of the stats. remember, it uses those stats to hunt as well, but having a biped or a couple on his back might hinder him from doing what he knows...Last edited by Bayar; 2008-10-07 at 12:48 AM.
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2008-10-07, 12:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2006
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Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn
Check out GURPS. Being bludgeoned is less un-good than sliced (pierced is even worst). Equally hard, I'd rather be thumped with a baseball bat than slashed with a katana. You?
And no, I'm not asking a high ref to change the hippogriff's damage, just making an observation.Business Trip 6/7 - 6/18. I'll try to keep up.
Gwydr
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2008-10-07, 12:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn
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2008-10-07, 01:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn
High Ref Talic
Further research (and about 30 secs of SRD access).
Noting whether attacks are treated as secondary or not is not enough to determine training. All hippogriffs have the same stats laid out in the SRD. All hippogriffs must undergo 6 weeks of training to become capable of bearing riders. Nothing in the entry suggests that all hippogriffs come with this standard. In fact, the listing of the need to train hippogriffs actually supports the contrary.
Thus, the hippogriff is not trained for combat riding.
Second, summoned creatures automatically follow your instructions to the best of their ability. However, if you cannot communicate with the animal, the commands must be simple in nature. As the animal isn't capable of bearing a rider in combat, "let me ride you" would fall outside the bounds of that.
I'll give a reasonable amount of time for rebuttals before rewinding the match to the first illegal action.
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2008-10-07, 02:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2006
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Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn
Well, darn. I smeared the difference between "willing" and "can" and assumed that the summoning-borne obedience would carry further. Looks like Leaf could, as a full round action, attempt a DC 30 HA check to allow the non-animal to perform a trick it doesn't know, but that seems like a long shot at second level. Where do we pick up? At the top of Leaf's round, just after the beast appeared?
I should have conjured a bat, which doesn't have the 6 week training requirement.Last edited by Maurkov; 2008-10-07 at 02:25 AM.
Business Trip 6/7 - 6/18. I'll try to keep up.
Gwydr
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2008-10-07, 06:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn
Hum... does the won't obey riding commands also means he can't mount it? You said yourself you could use a DC 30 HA check to make it obey you so I don't see how the action was illegal...
"Please note, we have added a consequence for failure.Any contact with the chamber floor will result in an unsatisfactory mark on your official test record, followed by death. Good luck." Portal A. I.
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2008-10-07, 09:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2006
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Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn
I believe the illegal part was not spending a full round action to make the check.
Business Trip 6/7 - 6/18. I'll try to keep up.
Gwydr
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2008-10-08, 02:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn
High Ref Talic
Ref Text Wall +3 (any can read, spoilered to keep thread clean):Spoiler
As it's a summoned creature, we're not following mount rules for it unless it's being used as a mount.
Further, we've been referencing this as a Hippogriff. It's not. It's a Celestial Hippogriff. In this case, it makes a difference. Celestial creatures have a minimum intelligence of 3, and a native plane that is celestial.
All creatures with intelligence 3 or greater have the capacity to understand language. Going with the premise that the language such a creature could understand would be the default language of its native environment, then the hippogriff can understand Celestial. If the hippogriff summoner can speak Celestial, then the animal will follow any command that can be relayed to it.
If not, the celestial creature will follow the rules for summon monster. It will attack your opponents to the best of its ability. This precludes riding.
If you wish to bypass that, you must be able to communicate with the creature. Handle animal can be used to do that, normally, for animals. Not magical beasts. Epic Handle animal has usages for handle animal that apply to magical beasts, but I see no DC's for handling or pushing, only for training and rearing. Thus, we have a case where the rules for training the creature are outlined, but not the rules for accessing that training. Sigh.
Further, the rules listed in the Monster entry for hippogriff contradict the standard rules for training magical beasts. Thus, we'll be treating the Hippogriff entry as Primary Source for hippogriff training. DC 25 to train. Since Handling and Pushing DC's aren't listed anywhere, we'll go with the same DC's listed in the Skill entry for animals, unless anyone has an objection to that.
First thing anyone trying to ride the animal will need to do is Push theanimalmagical beast to not attack, to override the Summon Monster spell's basic commands. Then you can deal with pushing it for riding. All DC's will follow Handle Animal entry.
Based on all this, the first illegal action happened in post 65. Again, I'll give reasonable time to offer any counter arguments. In the absence of any, I'll reverse play to that point in the AM.Last edited by Talic; 2008-10-08 at 02:36 AM.
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2008-10-08, 05:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn
I wont say anything more at least
"Please note, we have added a consequence for failure.Any contact with the chamber floor will result in an unsatisfactory mark on your official test record, followed by death. Good luck." Portal A. I.
Arena Characters(W-L): (DQs not added)
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My games
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2008-10-08, 10:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2006
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Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn
It is.
Not to veer off topic,Spoilerbut "[a]ny creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise)." The celestial template doesn't note otherwise, so it's common; Stupid but RAW. It's off topic because regular hippogriffs are INT 2.
So the Animal Empathy class feature would not count as "communicating" for purposes of telling it not to attack?Business Trip 6/7 - 6/18. I'll try to keep up.
Gwydr
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2008-10-11, 12:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn
High Ref Talic
Assuming you're referring to the druid's Wild Empathy ability, no.
By Text, the ability improves attitude, which could possibly get it to stop attacking you, unless it were magically compelled to. (thus, you cannot use wild empathy to stop an opponent's summoned creature from attacking you, as it is forced to attack regardless of attitude, by the text of the spell).
But you're not trying to get it to stop attacking you. You're getting it to stop attacking someone else. And making it like you is not an effective way to communicate "don't attack him".
To qualify as communicating a command, the listed text of the ability you're using must directly alter the creature's ACTIONS. Simply modifying attitude wouldn't qualify as communicating a command.
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2008-10-12, 08:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn
((Back from vacation. Will post shortly.))
Business Trip 6/7 - 6/18. I'll try to keep up.
Gwydr
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2008-10-13, 12:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn
((I'm going to need more clarification about how Leaf is able to direct his summoned creatures. I'll ask in the main thread.))
Leaf Round 4 Init 15
As Leaf completes the scroll, a feisty looking hippogriff appears X14-Y15. Having no control over the beast, it chooses MitS as his dodge buddy, launches forward, and attacks.
Fly: X14-Y15 0' to T14-U15 20' (60' of move) to P14-Q15 20' (+20' of move). Having traveled more than 50', the 'griff doesn't have to land.
claw attack - (1d20+11)[15] damage - (1d4+6)[9] miss chances are rolled by refs?
For those that can see Leaf,SpoilerLeaf drops the scroll and casts a spell.
I'd like a ref to tell me how visible that is.Spoilerentangle centered R18-S19; 40' radius; DC Reflex 14.
He steps 5' to Y14 and picks up one of the scrolls dropped by Cyn.
SpoilerThe scroll of ESNAII.
He whispers to Cyn,Spoiler"'Ware the Entangle. It covers South and West."
I'd like a ref to adjudicate the passive sense checks,Spoilerthe results of which Leaf will also relay to Cyn.
Done.
StatusSpoiler
Leaf
Passive Listen - (1d20+9)[10] Passive Spot - (1d20+8)[14]
HP16
AC20 t14 ff17
Location: Y13
Hands: Shield, Scroll of ESNAII
Active Spells: ESNAII (15 rounds)
Augmented Ashbound HIPPOGRIFF
Passive Listen - (1d20+4)[6] Passive Spot - (1d20+8)[9]
HP 31
AC 15 (16 vs. MitS via dodge feat) (–1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13
Location P14-Q15 20'
full statsSpoilerLarge Magical Beast; HD 3d10+15 (31 hp); Init +2; Spd 50 ft. (10 squares), fly 100 ft. (average); AC 15 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13; BAB +3/+13; Attack: 2 claws +11 melee (1d4+6) and bite +6 melee (1d8+3); Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.; SA -; SQ Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent; Saves F+8 R+5 W+2; Abilities ST22 DX15 CN20 IN2 WS13 CH8; Skills: Listen +4, Spot +8; Feats: Dodge, Wingover
Hippogriffs are aggressive flying creatures that combine features of horses and giant eagles. Voracious omnivores, hippogriffs will hunt humanoids as readily as any other meal. A typical hippogriff is 9 feet long, has a wingspan of 20 feet, and weighs 1,000 pounds.
COMBAT
Hippogriffs dive at their prey and strike with their clawed forelegs. When they cannot dive, they slash with claws and beak. Mated pairs and flights of these creatures attack in concert, diving repeatedly to drive away or kill intruders. Hippogriffs fight to the death to defend their nests and their hatchlings, which are prized as aerial mounts and fetch a handsome price in many civilized areas.
Skills: Hippogriffs have a +4 racial bonus on Spot checks.
Bud
Passive Listen - (1d20+5)[9] Passive Spot - (1d20+5)[6]
HP13
AC20 t12 ff18
Location: Y13
Active Command: Guard
SQ: Scent
Business Trip 6/7 - 6/18. I'll try to keep up.
Gwydr
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2008-10-13, 05:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn
You can roll miss chances if you want it's just concealment. So... Unless the hippogriff has SR a invisible barriers deflects his attack (hehe)
"Please note, we have added a consequence for failure.Any contact with the chamber floor will result in an unsatisfactory mark on your official test record, followed by death. Good luck." Portal A. I.
Arena Characters(W-L): (DQs not added)
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2008-10-13, 09:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2006
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Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn
I might as well get into practice. concealment low hits - (1d100)[83]
Edit: I have offended the RNG.Last edited by Maurkov; 2008-10-13 at 09:33 AM.
Business Trip 6/7 - 6/18. I'll try to keep up.
Gwydr
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2008-10-13, 09:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn
so is it my turn now then??
also how do you not have control over your summon?? you can talk to it and give it commands, it speaks common.
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2008-10-13, 11:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn
A Hippogriff is a 2 INT magical beast. It doesn't speak a regular language and it's immune to Speak with Animal. While I don't agree with most of what Talic ruled , if Leaf can't communicate* with it, he can't make it not attack.
Leaf will have to get a Mindlink tatoo for the next battle.Edit: Mindlink has an Int 3 lower bound.
If you'd like to call in Kyeudo for GM Override, you are welcome to. I was feeling selfish for delaying the match this long.
We should get a ref to summarize the results of Leaf's turn (for those who can observe it), but yes, it's your turn.
*'Communicate' has been defined far more strictly than I had anticipated.Last edited by Maurkov; 2008-10-13 at 11:34 AM.
Business Trip 6/7 - 6/18. I'll try to keep up.
Gwydr
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2008-10-13, 01:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn
So, who's turn is now ?
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2008-10-13, 01:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn
if i am thinking correctly it is my turn, but before i post Maurkov is requesting a post from the refs....
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2008-10-20, 10:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn
going to attempt to get another los check in here so we can get this moving, but it seems refs don't want to come and do one..
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2008-10-20, 01:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn
GM Kyeudo
Alright. Summary of Leaf's turn for those that can see him.
Spoiler
Leaf casts a spell from a scroll, summoning a hippogriff in X14-Y15. The hippogriff flies to P14-Q15 (20' up) and attacks MitS, but it's attacks fail to connect.
Leaf then drops the scroll and casts a spell. The area within 40' of the R18-S19 intersection becomes subject to an Entangle effect, DC 14 Reflex saves for everyone there. The effect is visible unless the plants are under an invisibility effect.
Leaf moves toY14 and picks up one of the scrolls dropped by Cyn. He whispers to Cyn.
At least, that's what seems to have occurred to me. As for LoS, I don't want to try to untangle that without knowing what is going on. I'll leave that to someone with a clue, lest I screw it up badly.Last edited by Kyeudo; 2008-10-20 at 01:17 PM.
A Book of Words: An Expanded Truenamer Fix
Masters of the Industrial Elements: An Exalted Supplement
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2008-10-21, 03:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn
LOS ?
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2008-10-21, 03:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn
yes... so i know where everyone is located, if i can see anyone, and the other little joyous things that come out of LOS checks...
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2008-10-21, 04:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn
Lets do the LoS ref a favor and repost our most recent stat blocks. It's not a treat to have to paw through 5 pages of postings to find everyone's last known position.
Here's mine
Last move: Round 4 Init 15
Stat block:
SpoilerLeaf
Passive Listen - (1d20+9)[10] Passive Spot - (1d20+8)[14]
HP16
AC20 t14 ff17
Location: Y13
Hands: Shield, Scroll of ESNAII
Active Spells: ESNAII (15 rounds)
Entangle centered R18-S19; 40' radius; DC Reflex 14. (20 rounds)
Augmented Ashbound HIPPOGRIFF
Passive Listen - (1d20+4)[6] Passive Spot - (1d20+8)[9]
HP 31
AC 15 (16 vs. MitS via dodge feat) (–1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13
Location P14-Q15 20'
full stats
Spoiler
Large Magical Beast; HD 3d10+15 (31 hp); Init +2; Spd 50 ft. (10 squares), fly 100 ft. (average); AC 15 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13; BAB +3/+13; Attack: 2 claws +11 melee (1d4+6) and bite +6 melee (1d8+3); Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.; SA -; SQ Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent; Saves F+8 R+5 W+2; Abilities ST22 DX15 CN20 IN2 WS13 CH8; Skills: Listen +4, Spot +8; Feats: Dodge, Wingover
Hippogriffs are aggressive flying creatures that combine features of horses and giant eagles. Voracious omnivores, hippogriffs will hunt humanoids as readily as any other meal. A typical hippogriff is 9 feet long, has a wingspan of 20 feet, and weighs 1,000 pounds.
COMBAT
Hippogriffs dive at their prey and strike with their clawed forelegs. When they cannot dive, they slash with claws and beak. Mated pairs and flights of these creatures attack in concert, diving repeatedly to drive away or kill intruders. Hippogriffs fight to the death to defend their nests and their hatchlings, which are prized as aerial mounts and fetch a handsome price in many civilized areas.
Skills: Hippogriffs have a +4 racial bonus on Spot checks.
Bud
Passive Listen - (1d20+5)[9] Passive Spot - (1d20+5)[6]
HP13
AC20 t12 ff18
Location: Y13
Active Command: Guard
SQ: ScentLast edited by Maurkov; 2008-10-21 at 04:23 PM.
Business Trip 6/7 - 6/18. I'll try to keep up.
Gwydr
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2008-10-21, 04:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor Battleborn and MitS vs Leaf and Cyn
my most recent stat block
Spoiler
stats
Location Z14
HP: 14/30 (after MiTS hits me)
AC: 10
T: 7 F: 11