Truenamer

[Demons_eye]

Now I dont own the book the class is in, but I did get to look at it and my first thought is why dose every one says this class suck?

SO why do a lot of people disaprove of the class?

[Edea]

o_O Binder doesn't suck at all, and I don't hear it said much.

I want to say you're probably thinking Truenamer, which is in the same book. THAT one sucks because of how Truespeak DCs are determined (they're based off of the target's CR, which is a major WotC "WTF" moment).

[Sstoopidtallkid]

It sucks in the same way a Warlock sucks. It's not nearly as good as a full-caster, balanced with a Rogue or Barbarian.

[RTGoodman]

I don't think there's anyone that disapproves of the class, but it's considered weak because, as a general rule, D&D rewards specialization over "jack-of-all-trades"-style characters. A Binder can, if he bound the right vestige, do all kinds of stuff, but he can't do it all when it might be needed. I don't think it's a "bad" class, but it's certainly not as powerful as other "casters," which it's supposed to (sort of) be like. It might not be the most powerful class (in fact, I'd say it's well-balanced with non-casters), but it doesn't suck and it's one of the coolest classes out there RP-wise.

As Edea says, though, the Truenamer from the same book really does suck. Any class that requires so much optimization (or even cheesy rules like Item Familiars) to be remotely playable can't be that good.

[Edea]

I don't think there's anyone that disapproves of the class, but it's considered weak because, as a general rule, D&D rewards specialization over "jack-of-all-trades"-style characters. A Binder can, if he bound the right vestige, do all kinds of stuff, but he can't do it all when it might be needed. I don't think it's a "bad" class, but it's certainly not as powerful as other "casters," which it's supposed to (sort of) be like. It might not be the most powerful class (in fact, I'd say it's well-balanced with non-casters), but it doesn't suck and it's one of the coolest classes out there RP-wise.

To build on that with more of my own opinions; a Binder -20- might not be the best idea in the world, but as part of a multiclass build, it most certainly has some strong applications (one of those is with the aforementioned Warlock in Hellfire builds; another is as a fullcaster/Anima Mage, and I think there's yet another one floating around involving Tenebrous Apostates). It's also a favorable class for Gestalts (assuming no multiclassing penalties, which should be the case for anyone even remotely interested in using the variant).

Truenamer, on the other hand...just sucks. Really bad, and it's a shame too; I like the idea the class is trying to get at.

[Thurbane]

The Binder's Handbook over at the WotC forums is a good resource.

I personally really like Binders, but haven't had the chance to play one yet. The Knight of the Sacred Seal is a good PrC for Binders, as it gets you a lot of benefits without sacrificing any binding ability...

[Demons_eye]

>< sorry yes I ment truenamer not binder ><

[Sstoopidtallkid]

In that case, look at the DC of the checks. At level 5, you'll have 8 ranks, +3 from a feat, +5 from Int. The DC is 40(15+5^2=15+25=40). You don't even make it on a 20. Truenamer sucks.

[RTGoodman]

In that case, look at the DC of the checks. At level 5, you'll have 8 ranks, +3 from a feat, +5 from Int. The DC is 40(15+5^2=15+25=40). You don't even make it on a 20. Truenamer sucks.

Not to mention you get penalties for for using your "spells" more than once, making it ever WORSE. And, of course, the coolest part of truenaming and the only reason I'd want to BE a truenamer ISN'T EVEN AVAILABLE TO TRUENAMERS as far as I know. Specifically, unname (where you remove someone's truename and thus remove them from reality itself) is a 9th-level Sor/Wiz spell, but I don't think you can even do it as a Truenamer without a PrC or something like that.

[Wolfpack]

In that case, look at the DC of the checks. At level 5, you'll have 8 ranks, +3 from a feat, +5 from Int. The DC is 40(15+5^2=15+25=40). You don't even make it on a 20. Truenamer sucks.

It's CR x2 not CR squared. So the DC is actually 25 total. So in fact, you can make it on a 19.

[Neon Knight]

It's CR x2 not CR squared. So the DC is actually 25 total. So in fact, you can make it on a 19.

That's still shockingly poor, and the DC goes up if you use your abilities more than once.

[Collin152]

Did they even test this class?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

It's CR x2 not CR squared. So the DC is actually 25 total. So in fact, you can make it on a 19.

9, not a 19. Though it's still insane. You don't even get to cast your spells half the time. By level 10 you have to make a DC 35, and only have 13 ranks, +7 from Int, +5 from an item, and +3 from the feat. You need a 7, and so far you've invested a lot of money and a feat in just being able to cast more often than not. And the Sayings are less than powerful. It's not worth it.

[EvilElitest]

>< sorry yes I ment truenamer not binder ><

oh ok. You might want to change the title through
from
EE

[Chronos]

I think that what happened with the Truenamer is that the designer saw the sorts of things the CharOp boards are able to do with Diplomacy checks, or Jump, or Hide, and figured he needed to protect against that level of optimization. What he didn't realize, though, is that there's been a lot more support for those skills than for True Speech, so most of the tricks optimizers use for them just don't have a counterpart for the Truenamer. There's probably a dozen different feats which give +2 or more to Diplomacy, for instance, but only one that gives a bonus to True Speech.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I think that what happened with the Truenamer is that the designer saw the sorts of things the CharOp boards are able to do with Diplomacy checks, or Jump, or Hide, and figured he needed to protect against that level of optimization. What he didn't realize, though, is that there's been a lot more support for those skills than for True Speech, so most of the tricks optimizers use for them just don't have a counterpart for the Truenamer. There's probably a dozen different feats which give +2 or more to Diplomacy, for instance, but only one that gives a bonus to True Speech.

And the Utterances are seriously no better than the weaker spells. And there's less support for them. You're essentially spending a lot of feats, ranks, and WBL to be worse than the average Sublime Chord at casting. It's not worth it.

[sonofzeal]

My theory is that ToM was published during the period where they were starting to really think about 4th Ed, and trying random stuff to see what clicked. Dungeonscape, ToM, and ToB all depart from established D&D conventions in their own ways, and all had varying degrees of traction.

[Adumbration]

I think it's possible to make a functional Truenamer, at least at low levels.

My achievement for level 3:
(+5 Int + 6 ranks + 3 SF (Truespeak) + 2 Masterwork tool, book + 5 Amulet of the Silver Tongue + 3 Item familiar + 1 Trait: Illiterate) = 25.

The DC of CR 3 is (15 + 2x3) = 21. He autosucceeds in his check, and has a good chance to use the same utterance multiple times. Even if you remove the more dubious boni, such as the masterwork tool and item familiar, you can easily succeed.

[Edea]

I wonder what kinds of homebrews have attempted to fix the class. I'd just set the DC at 10 + the level of the utterance you want to use, and then start adding the +2 DC adjustments for subsequent uses. Sure, they'd get a much larger number of utterance uses, but I think that's kinda the point of the change (it's STILL nowhere -near- a full caster, even with that change to the DC determination).

[RTGoodman]

I think it's possible to make a functional Truenamer, at least at low levels.

My achievement for level 3:
(+5 Int + 6 ranks + 3 SF (Truespeak) + 2 Masterwork tool, book + 5 Amulet of the Silver Tongue + 3 Item familiar + 1 Trait: Illiterate) = 25.

Yeah, but look at what you've got there:

• +5 Int modifier, which is NOT guaranteed at that level at all, unless you're allowed to be one of the few races with a bonus to Int or you're allowed to be Venerable or whatever.
• An item that a lot of people won't allow (masterwork True Speech item).
• A 2,500gp item (i.e., ALL of your WBL for a 3rd level character)
• An item familiar, probably not available in all games since it's in UA, and possibly banned even if UA is allowed because a lot of people call it cheesy.
• A trait, which like the Item Familiar, might not be allowed in a lot of games.

I'd say it's more likely that, at that level, you'd probably have +4 INT (if that), 6 ranks, +3 from Skill Focus, and MAYBE one of the above things, meaning probably only a +13-15 on the check. Versus at DC 21, you've got, at best, to roll a 6 or higher. Every time you repeat one of your THREE utterances, the DC increases by 2. And that's against one creature of your level - at level 3, you might even be up against a CR 4, 5, or 6 creature, which could mean up to a DC 27 check (before adding +2s).

What you've done, though, is basically do what almost all viable truenamers have to - dig through a bunch of sources and hope that a DM will allow all of them to try to even have a decent chance at using your abilities for a whole day.

There are a bunch of homebrews that have floated around the internet trying to fix it, but I can't think of any that have stuck with me. I know Kellus (I think?) has a fix in the Homebrew Forum now, but I haven't read it so I can't really comment.

[Sinfire Titan]

And the Utterances are seriously no better than the weaker spells. And there's less support for them. You're essentially spending a lot of feats, ranks, and WBL to be worse than the average Sublime Chord at casting. It's not worth it.

The healing ones are actually somewhat stronger than the Cure X line of spells, so they have something going for them.

An item familiar, probably not available in all games since it's in UA, and possibly banned even if UA is allowed because a lot of people call it cheesy.

Item Familiar is required for Truenamers. Even if the DM has to House Rule out the bonus XP, so long as it gives the skill bonuses it is required.

[Waspinator]

Item Familiar's not too bad in general as long as you kill that bonus XP thing. That part is a little silly.

Anyway, the reason people think binders are weak is because they're out of the three-ringed kind.

[Chronos]

My achievement for level 3:
(+5 Int + 6 ranks + 3 SF (Truespeak) + 2 Masterwork tool, book + 5 Amulet of the Silver Tongue + 3 Item familiar + 1 Trait: Illiterate) = 25.

Even with all of that, if the dice love you or all of your utterances are things you can practically "take 20" on, that still gives you an absolute maximum of 12 uses of each, for 36 magic things a day. And you'd better hope that if you meet anything above the party's level, it happens at the start of the day, instead of the usual pattern of boss-at-the-end.

By comparison, a focused specialist wizard with a 20 Int can cast 18 spells per day, and they're all guaranteed to go off. Plus he didn't have to spend any feats, traits, or gold to get that, so he can still afford a few wands (which the Truenamer couldn't use even if he could afford them) and toss in some metamagic or Spell Focus. Or he could even spend a feat on a reserve, and be able to toss around 2d6 damage in a small area of effect every single round until the last big battle of the day.

[MammonAzrael]

There's not much I can add that hasn't been covered already. Truenamers suck because of the way DCs are determined.

Now, I haven't read through this, but it is a current homebrew fix for for Truenaming...and it seems to be getting a lot of approval.

[Kyeudo]

It's CR x2 not CR squared. So the DC is actually 25 total. So in fact, you can make it on a 19.

The DC is 15 + CR x2, which is DC 55 for trying to affect a CR 20 target. With a +23 from skill ranks and a +10 Int Mod, that means you need a natural 22 to actually make that check if you have no other optimization.

Thus why the class just does not work.

[MeklorIlavator]

The healing ones are actually somewhat stronger than the Cure X line of spells, so they have something going for them.

But don't they cap at 1/2 health? It makes them alot less useful than they could be.

[Demons_eye]

Theres not a ring of truespeaking that gives a +10 bonus?
I know theres a jumping one but...?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Theres not a ring of truespeaking that gives a +10 bonus?
I know theres a jumping one but...?

10,000 GP. And it's an Amulet, which is one of the best slots out there. That's what I mean by 'You can make the checks, it just takes most of your resources most of the time, especially with the daily scaling.

[Eldariel]

So yea, Truenamer not only sucks because of he's derived off a skill that you need to totally pimp out to even do anything (toughest suggested encounter is Level+4 CR, so CR9 at level 5 for DC 34, DC 25 just to affect allies...). That's only half the story - even when you do make the checks, your abilities are still worse than spells. So yea, you can do worse than casters when you do make the checks, and making the checks costs you all your damnable resources. They're broken in the way that they just don't work. Cut down the DCs to something reasonable so that you can at least affect yourself (and please derive it off something more rational than CR) and the class becomes playable.

[Starsinger]

Even with all of that, if the dice love you or all of your utterances are things you can practically "take 20" on, that still gives you an absolute maximum of 12 uses of each, for 36 magic things a day. And you'd better hope that if you meet anything above the party's level, it happens at the start of the day, instead of the usual pattern of boss-at-the-end.

You can't take 20 when truenaming. Taking 20 requires you to try until you fail, which is why you cannot take 20 on any check where you cannot just try again if you fail.