Goblins

[Tempest Fennac]

In a lightgun game called House of the Dead 2, G, who's a PC in HotD 1 and 3, is injured by the 1st level's boss who tells you to "suffer like G did" at the start of the fight. The line became noutourious due to the awful voice acting making it sound like a question rather then a threat.

[Lissou]

I think the comic is better now, but I'm also all for "it hurts like a SICKNESS" to become some kind of trope or meme or something.

EDIT: Not sure if we're allowed animated gifs in our signatures, and this one is too big for an avatar... but here goes:

[Tempest Fennac]

I like that GIF. Sadly, animated avatars and sigs are banned on this forum.

[RMS Oceanic]

I think the comic is better now, but I'm also all for "it hurts like a SICKNESS" to become some kind of trope or meme or something.

It's clearly a case of "Narm": Something that's supposed to be dramatic, scary and/or shocking but is instead stupid/rediculous/funny.

Next time a character of mine is poisoned/whatever, I'm totally saying it.

[Tempest Fennac]

Now that I think about it, how did the expression "sonofacrap" come about? I know it's an explitive, but I'm curious about its origins.

[Neoriceisgood]

Well Fennac, when one turd loves another turd ...

[Lissou]

Now that I think about it, how did the expression "sonofacrap" come about? I know it's an explitive, but I'm curious about its origins.

No idea, I've only read it in Thunt's work.

[ericgrau]

To be fair, they are up against Elite Guards

And they're level 3. That just makes things worse.

It's a real shame. I liked this comic, really got into it. But then the author wanted to put them in epic fights while claiming that even Thaco never had in previous PC levels. They're all epic level 3 characters it seems. Now they have to face DBZ-syndrome and there's no turning back. I mean, what will happen to the fights when they're level 10-20?

Sigh, dragonball original was a much better series than Z. But once the Z disease struck efforts to reverse it were so laughable you wonder if sometimes the series gave up and resorted to making fun of itself instead.

"How are you still standing and now suddenly back to full health?"
"Good always triumps over evil, and now I will defeat you."
"That makes no sense!"

[Tempest Fennac]

To be fair, it is probably the items which are responsible for the fight going so well for the Goblins (without the Shield of Wonder, which admittedly has worked in the Goblin's favour for the most part, they would probably be dead by now).

[Kurald Galain]

But then the author wanted to put them in epic fights while claiming that even Thaco never had in previous PC levels. They're all epic level 3 characters it seems. Now they have to face DBZ-syndrome and there's no turning back. I mean, what will happen to the fights when they're level 10-20?

I agree. Thunt should stop pretending that his comic is based on D&D rules, because it blatantly obviously isn't. The (rare) reference to a D&D term in-character feels tacked-on and doesn't help.

[High-Chancellor]

To be fair, the Guard's the goblins took out a group of CR 1/4 Trainees at level 2. That's DIFFICULT, and it was, but not impossible. As far as Thac0 goes... we know there's something different about him, even if it wasn't a PC level. I forget where it was, but I read someone's number crunch that figured out Thac0 probably has a second hit die.

As another note, Thunt already admits that he tends to favour house rules in his homebrew setting.

And finally, if you'd ever heard Thunt describes how he runs his games, you'd know he illustrates his comic exactly the same. There can be more than one "attack" per attack role for instance. He illustrates things beyond the number crunch, but the number crunch DOES still apply.

Post Finally, it can be EASILY assumed that it's the magic weapons that have kept the party alive so far. Without the SoW causing chaos the GAP would have faced a TPK for this fight. But I have a feeling that wont be a factor too much longer.

[Ravenlord]

It's still pretty much deus ex machina. Just saying "Oh I have an item that saves my team every team!" doesn't make deus ex machina less jarring.

[High-Chancellor]

Please watch how you use that term, because it is NOT appropriate here. The term you are looking for is "contrived" probably.

And if you were familiar with of Wonder at items at all particularly, you should have been expecting something like this since the shield first turned up.

Deus Ex Machina would be a thinly veiled Hand of God to get the author out of the hole he's written himself into. That's particularly hard to do when the story's already written to the end. There's probably a better way to explain that though.

[Lissou]

Sometimes I just don't get you.
You complain about "hurts like a sickness", then you complain when it's removed.
You complain when the characters get hurt, but you complain when they don't.

There is no pleasing you guys.[/rant]

More on the subject though; we're talking about goblins. If they were truly weak, without any weapon, and try to take on... Anyone, really, they'd lose, die, End of Story.
That's just not happening. And if we had to go through fights against rats or something unless they leveled up enough, you'd complain it's too slow to move.

And more importantly, a story is told from the end. In this case, at least, (since now it's not always the case) the narrator knows the end and tells the story leading to that end. In other words, you don't just follow the story of just anyone. You follow /that/ story because the author thought it was important enough to be told. So yeah, chances are the heroes win the smaller battles in their way, so they can go fight the big evil and then, when it's the end, they can lose. I could finish with them losing, we don't know that. Of course, people would complain about that too.

Anyway. The GAp are 5 people only. If one dies, it makes a big difference. Right now, Fumbles is pretty much useless, so they're actually 4.
Dies Horribly is alone, although now there are more characters with him (Klik, Saves a Fox, Ksseliss (sp?)...). But chances are he won't die either. So yeah, when the house fell, he survived. What are the chances, really? What are the chances that he'd be tied to the strongest character and survive thanks to that? What were the odds of Saves a Fox surviving too?

Well, any scenario has the same odds: very, very, very low. And it's the same here. The odds were against the goblins. Isn't that the point of the story?

Plus, we got an important battle here. I mean, look from a bit further. not only did we see many of the effects of the shield, but think about the consequences on the goblins. Ears seemed really troubled in the latest update. Complains is in a bad situation, too.

So, ok, most of the guards are gone. Some might have ran away, 3 were transformed, the various effect killed them... None of them have been killed by the goblins though, so I assume they'd get less experience than if they had killed them personally.

We know Thunt can still tell a story without it being all contrived like the Shield of Wonder arc seems to be: look at Thaco's escape. He avoided a fight that he couldn't win. He didn't fight GS and win.

I think it might help to think about the other options. We don't know all of it because we don't know what's next in the story, of course, but let's say they went to a street that wasn't a dead end street. Let's say the other guards didn't chase them, and they could escape.

Now, that's contrived too, isn't it? They escape, without being chased? Isn't that too easy? Or is it the type of contrived you prefer?

The goblins have ups and downs in the story. You migth think it's an up and that it's too high. Of course, that's forgetting how badly wounded they both are, complains with his arm that was fixed in a weird position, possibly crippling him forever, and his abdominal wound that is potentially lethal, not to mention he might be dead and sliced right now, we won't know that until the next update.
Big Ears, out of healing magic, had his throat sliced, his armor is damaged and I think the biggest damage for him is emotional. Not only seeing Fumbles like that, but seeing the battle, people asking him for help, and him being unable to help them. He's a very good-hearted person, the damage must be high.

And of course, Fumbles is currently broken, unable to speak, to walk on his own, apparently to even recognise his friends.

Honestly, I don't think they're in such a great situation, really.

[Gundato]

I am just going to avoid the "You guys all suck because you have complaints" post. "Snarking" that would be WAY too easy :p

Please watch how you use that term, because it is NOT appropriate here. The term you are looking for is "contrived" probably.

And if you were familiar with of Wonder at items at all particularly, you should have been expecting something like this since the shield first turned up.

Deus Ex Machina would be a thinly veiled Hand of God to get the author out of the hole he's written himself into. That's particularly hard to do when the story's already written to the end. There's probably a better way to explain that though.

While I agree that a different term is probably more appropriate, I am not seeing how your argument applies. Are we to assume that all of the old Greek plays were improvised (highly unlikely, since they actually needed to set the Hand of God machine up :p)? I mean, by your argument, the only time a Deus Ex Machina can be called is if something is improvised, since any time someone has written a story it magically means that it can't be horrendously bad writing.


And to the people complaining that D&D rules no longer apply: Seriously, read through the archives. This comic has changed a lot over the couple years of real-time (and few weeks of comic time, but that is a pacing issue :p). It started off as a rather formulaic D&D comic that actually broke a few of the standard template plot-points (STPs) by having the protagonists be the monsters. Over the years it has broken from the D&D comic mold, but settled back into the generic "adventuring party" mold.

[Neoriceisgood]

While I agree that a different term is probably more appropriate, I am not seeing how your argument applies. Are we to assume that all of the old Greek plays were improvised (highly unlikely, since they actually needed to set the Hand of God machine up :p)? I mean, by your argument, the only time a Deus Ex Machina can be called is if something is improvised, since any time someone has written a story it magically means that it can't be horrendously bad writing.

I think the real thing here is;

The "Shield of Wonders" is by definition a generator of random/chaotic effects, which means that no matter how insane it's effects may be, they're expected due to the nature of the item.

Due to the nature of the Shield of Wonders it's impossible to associate it with this trope:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Asspull

Because when asspull is the described effect of an item ...how can it be asspull?

Because "asspull" is a large part of at least one definition of Deus ex Machina

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph.../DeusExMachina [to link to TvTropes I'd like to say..definition 1]

the Shield of Wonders is a very difficult item to really asses in "how deux ex machina is it ?"-type of questions.


Although I agree that people seem to have "conflicting" dislikes about the current story arc, I can actually understand -why- these conflicts appear.

It's hard to explain accurately, but I'm pretty darn sure nobody has any real complaints about Thaco's current situation for example; as he relied purely on his wits to get out of a dangerous situation, and got out of it quite nicely.

Ears and Complaints however, charged right into a group with overwhelming odds against them, and used the shield of wonders to flat out demolish the enemies.

Now there's a few things I notice here;

1. This makes sense when it's still 20-30 to 2, the shield of wonders has large surface effects that would obviously have more consequences against groups than against singular characters, chaos is most effective in situations where it's crowded and when there's a lot of disorder and confusion.

Now for me, and I'm guessing a few others the "problems" with this battle appear in the last few pages, it's roughly a 4-5 on 2 battle and both goblins are at the end of their latin.

Complains is badly injured and Ears has his actual throat cut.

How Ears survived this long is beyond me, but that aside.

The enemies realise the shield of wonders is responsible and try to avoid it, and next to that; the effects should be "easier" to avoid.

The fact that when all the confusion is over and the effects are much more clearly distinguishable the remaining 3 guards [unless there's more alive] die so easily by

1. another effect working entirely in the favor of the goblins

2. showing that goblins are the only ones capable of avoiding blue walls

it feels like the shield of wonders, although having "negative implications" for the Goblins, is an item guaranteed to kill anyone who'se not a goblin just like that; while imposing a light but survivable challenge to the goblins themself.


Unless I missed something in the last few pages, none of the effects of the shield actually directly harmed the goblins, although the implications of them possibly harming the goblins were obviously there.

The "Deus Ex Machina"-feelings the shield is giving mostly come from this small fact, obviously you can't just kill off one of the heroes that easily, but if either of them died from this point on, it'd just become anti-climatic rather than suprising.

Timing and the cause of events are very important, especially when it comes to introducing concepts like "chaotic magic"; the biggest reason the shield is so dangerous for complains is because the soldiers hurt him too much to dodge it's blue walls properly.


Oh well, this is just my sentiments, it just feels kind of weird how things ended up.

[Lissou]

I think it's probably linked to the randomness of it all. In another comic (Trolls de Troy, namely), every human has a power. One of the main characters has a random power. It's kinda tricky because whenever an effect helps the cast, people go "oh, yeah, right". The thing is, if the same thing happened for any other reason, people might be okay with it.
The author controls everything. They control the random effects when there are "random" effects, but they also control anything else. If the villain sneezes at a bad time, that's also the author. If GS was stupid enough to ask people to stop shooting arrows, then accept Thaco's challenge, decide it will be on top of the statue, which allows him to escape... That's also the author deciding.

But I have the feeling that if it was a random effect stopping the arrows, another one deciding the fight would be on top of the statue and so on, people would complain about it being contrived.

So, I'm guessing the problem is inherent to it being described as random. People like to have rules so they can know what to expect, even though the rules are made up by the same guy. Someone that has no rule becomes annoying because of that, even though in effect it's no different to the rest of the story (i.e not random at all and decided by the author).

[Jayngfet]

Wait, what the hell is that red thing next to complains?

[Tempest Fennac]

Someone a while back suggested it was one of the heads which the Shield of Wonder produced.

[Jayngfet]

Now thatyou mention it, looks like the pit fiend head if you squint.

[High-Chancellor]

While I agree that a different term is probably more appropriate, I am not seeing how your argument applies. Are we to assume that all of the old Greek plays were improvised (highly unlikely, since they actually needed to set the Hand of God machine up :p)? I mean, by your argument, the only time a Deus Ex Machina can be called is if something is improvised, since any time someone has written a story it magically means that it can't be horrendously bad writing.

The I beleive I said it's HARD to do, I didn't say it doesn't happen. And the greek plays were a horse of an entirely different color. They had a story or point that they wanted to tell, and didn't want lasting repurcussions of the events or wanted it to end in a different way, so then they handwaved. It's a completely different writing process than we primarily use. (but those that DO pull deus ex machinas when they have the story written ahead of time generally do so by a similar means)

In any case, the point stands that the term here does not apply.

[Gundato]

The I beleive I said it's HARD to do, I didn't say it doesn't happen. And the greek plays were a horse of an entirely different color. They had a story or point that they wanted to tell, and didn't want lasting repurcussions of the events or wanted it to end in a different way, so then they handwaved. It's a completely different writing process than we primarily use. (but those that DO pull deus ex machinas when they have the story written ahead of time generally do so by a similar means)

In any case, the point stands that the term here does not apply.

Actually, I said that I believe a different term was more appropriate. Not that a Deus Ex Machina isn't.

And how is it harder? If I write a five thousand page epic that is perfectly planned, I can just as easily have the day be saved by Captain Crazy-Pants (introduced in passing on page 1, and never again mentioned until page 4942). It might fit thematically and even be considered "foreshadowing", but it is still some crazy guy with heat vision burning away the armies of Mecha-Canadians.

Hell, using your exact example: The dude wanted to tell a story or emphasize that the dude with the wooden arm is a bad guy and that the Adventuring Party should escape. Now, considering they are level 3 (at best), it is highly unlikely they would survive. But suddenly, the hand of God (or a bunch of demons/devils and blue walls that were summoned by a magic shield) waves away a bunch of bad guys to "even" the odds. How is that NOT a Deus Ex Machina?

All I can see from your argument is that you are basically saying "Goblins isn't allowed to have a Deus Ex Machina. Only stories with bad writing are allowed to", seeing as how every point you have argued is either incorrect or actually applies to Goblins anyway.
That is not to say that Goblins has poor writing (lots of other things are saying that already :p). One of my favorite authors (Dan Simmons) wrote two amazing multi-book epics (The Hyperion Cantos and whatever the hell we are calling Illium/Olympos). Both of those REEK of Deus Ex Machinas. It doesn't hurt the story (it actually kind of fits, considering the nature and inspirations), but they are there.

Like I said, there is probably a better term (or trope. Someone who is obsessed with that site can look it up), but Lavender is still Purple (no matter what Crayola may say).

[High-Chancellor]

The crazy guy saving the day at the end DOES fit though, if people should be aware that he would be capable of doing so, and it was made obvious that he was going to play a role. That fits the SHIELD to each capital letter.

Perhaps saying it was hard to do wasn't a good way to describe my point. The point WAS, that it's Not Very Likely for a Hand of God moment in a well thought out story done by a competent author. That was unrelated to whether or not there was Deus Ex Machina in Goblins or not.

It was OBVIOUS that this is exactly the sort of scene THunt wanted to show, because otherwise he never would have had the Goblins forced into that sort of fight to begin with. There is no Deus Ex Machina here. Deus Ex Machina would be more like... all the soldiers suddenly coming down with scurvy and passing out or something.

As I said before, Contrived? Maybe, perhaps probably. Deus Ex? Not really.

[Gundato]

The crazy guy saving the day at the end DOES fit though, if people should be aware that he would be capable of doing so, and it was made obvious that he was going to play a role. That fits the SHIELD to each capital letter.

Perhaps saying it was hard to do wasn't a good way to describe my point. The point WAS, that it's Not Very Likely for a Hand of God moment in a well thought out story done by a competent author. That was unrelated to whether or not there was Deus Ex Machina in Goblins or not.

It was OBVIOUS that this is exactly the sort of scene THunt wanted to show, because otherwise he never would have had the Goblins forced into that sort of fight to begin with. There is no Deus Ex Machina here. Deus Ex Machina would be more like... all the soldiers suddenly coming down with scurvy and passing out or something.

As I said before, Contrived? Maybe, perhaps probably. Deus Ex? Not really.

Again, you are basically saying "I like Goblins, it doesn't have a Deus Ex Machina." Or, to paraphrase "Thunt is a good writer, he isn't allowed to show signs of poor writing" (again, there are plenty of quotes in this thread to handle that argument for me).

Let's get back to the actual historical origin of the term: Greek plays. Greek people were aware that their gods were capable of godlike feats, and considering how prevalent it had to be (and the constant beseeching of the gods), they expected it. That fits the shield in the exact same manner.

If we go by your definition, Deus Ex Machinas don't exist. If the writers of the ancient Greek plays didn't want Zeus to have to come save the day, they wouldn't have put the protagonist in a situation where only Zeus could save him.

Like I said, a Deus Ex Machina does not make a story bad (poor dialogue and horrendous pacing do :p). Like I said, I love the Illium/Olympos saga, but that REEKS of Deus Ex Machinas (right down to actually having Greek gods be the source of a few) and even has a Deus Sex Machina (I am not joking :p).

Analyze something for what it is, not for what you think of the author.

[Hands_Of_Blue]

Someone a while back suggested it was one of the heads which the Shield of Wonder produced.

It is. It is the only one that hasn't transformed anyone yet.

[Mr._Blinky]

Well, I do agree that in the end randomness really does favor the goblins, so I've got no real beef there. It being something like 30 vs. 2, the chances of the random effects hitting the guards was a lot greater, and the goblins still got pretty badly womped on.

I can also understand the idea of the goblins being able to dodge the blue walls. They can dodge because they're small, meaning they can fit into spaces between the walls that the guards and the devourer can't, as evidenced by the most recent strip.

The one thing that does annoy me though is the fate of the sergeant. Okay, yeah, the whole armor-crushing thing was pretty interesting, but it was the one time that the goblins seemed to be facing a random threat directed only at them. Had it turned into a tough fight between BE and the sergeant with BE eventually winning, I think it would have been far better than "Well, it looked bad, but it really wasn't, lulz". To be honest, I've got far more of an issue with that part than any of the others,

[High-Chancellor]

Gundato, you are misinterpreting me. I am disagreeing with you on a basic level of what Deus Ex Machina IS. The Axe of Prissan and the Defeat of Cain? I can see that as being seen as DeM. The axe just going THROUGH Big Ears was kind of out of nowhere. The Wonder Battle? Not so much. Everything was set up for that to happen. Stop twisting my words.

In modern context, a DeM is something much more out of nowhere than simply something uber powerful. And I can't think of historic examples of it where the gods fixing everything DeM style wasn't Out of Nowhere itself. If you know of any, please enlighten me.

[Lissou]

The one thing that does annoy me though is the fate of the sergeant. Okay, yeah, the whole armor-crushing thing was pretty interesting, but it was the one time that the goblins seemed to be facing a random threat directed only at them. Had it turned into a tough fight between BE and the sergeant with BE eventually winning, I think it would have been far better than "Well, it looked bad, but it really wasn't, lulz". To be honest, I've got far more of an issue with that part than any of the others,

That's something I can agree with. It was very annoying to have an effect look like it was in favour of the elite guard (first effect in their favour, as the others were either against them or against everybody) and then, "oh, nevermind", actualy reveal it to be in the favour of the goblins.

I think the point of it was more about BE than anything else, for his character development. But still, annoying and frustrating.
The thing is, the update was supposed to have it together more. I mean, to have the sergeant crushed almost right away, which would be a ot les frustrating than waiting for the next update to see how BE is going to get out of that fight, only to see "oh, he doesn't need to. the sergeant is crushed before he can touch him".

But I think the problem is, it's hard to juge some things from the middle of them. You know what I mean? It's a long planned story, all of that might make more sense to us later. Maybe we're supposed to feel frustrated, what do I know?

Also, I think maybe High-Chancellor is confusing two things. I could be wrong, of course, but to me it doesn't seem that something that is planned can't have a Deux Ex Machina. However, you can't really say it "jumped the shark".
Jumping the shark means being out of ideas. When you had all of your ideas at the same time, and possibly had some ideas that happen earlier later than some ideas that happen later, you can't really say "oh, in the middle of his ideas, he ran out of ideas!". That's just silly.

However, Deux Ex Machina is getting the heroes out of a hard situation though something unexpected that saves the day. Although I don't think the Shield of Wonder is one, it could be argued that some of the individual effects are.
Thunt uses a list for his random effects. But we've never seen that list.

Anyway, right now the goblins are still in a bad situation. I say let's see what happens.

[Gundato]

Gundato, you are misinterpreting me. I am disagreeing with you on a basic level of what Deus Ex Machina IS. The Axe of Prissan and the Defeat of Cain? I can see that as being seen as DeM. The axe just going THROUGH Big Ears was kind of out of nowhere. The Wonder Battle? Not so much. Everything was set up for that to happen. Stop twisting my words.

In modern context, a DeM is something much more out of nowhere than simply something uber powerful. And I can't think of historic examples of it where the gods fixing everything DeM style wasn't Out of Nowhere itself. If you know of any, please enlighten me.

Uhm, the fact that they were the gods and were involved in a good many Greek plays and myths? :p

So now your argument is that the actual origins of the term "Deus Ex Machina" aren't Deus Ex Machinas?

And I have not twisted your words. I have basically said the exact same things as you, just showing why they apply to the shield.

[Radar]

New page

1. Now we know, what was the reason for the sickness line.
2. Complains has now serious existancial problem.
3. Complains and Big Ears are still in loads of trouble.

Ovarally good page, now i really anticipate the next update.