Goblins

[tomaO2]

Oh God. The piling in begins. I thought I had left this behind by not posting in Thunt's forum anymore.

And I have never killed anyone....wait... Does bragging about not doing something so despicable make sense? I think it's kind of a weak argument.

The point is that I am not doing any thing dispicable. I occasionally make some critical posts in one thread, not bashing posts. They are not to bash, I'm just giving criticism. You can see the difference if you look at the Dominic Deagen thread.

Yeah, my point is, your argument isn't very strong. Saying other people do worse or that you do the same to other people doesn't make one any less justified to feel bad about what you did to them and resent you for it.

No, some people do bad. I am not doing bad. I gave valid criticism. A person need not apologize for that.

So, let me get this straight. You are telling my friend that you are hurting him, that you know you are hurting him, and that you want to keep doing it?
I would also like to know why you stated earlier that you though the only thing that could happen was back and forth posts, and yet you made that lengthy post? Obviously you're not even expecting to convince him or anything. I don't get that.

No, that's not it at all. I meant that my post hurts him because he knows better, he knows I am offering valid criticism. It's not because anything I say is inherintly mean or wrong. The people that do that, are people he can ignore because they don't have anything worthwhile to say.

As for convincing... Well, that is a two way street, isn't it? I've argued with him before. He wanted to reply to my original post. Unlike him, I can certainly be convinced if I understand the picture more clearly but he doesn't want to do that.

Wait, I have to be fair. I simply disagree with some stuff. Like he NEEDS to do two or 3 pages at once for a better story. Nothing anyone can say can make me agree with that and further I see this insistence as being directly harmful to his business. However, that being said, I DO try to see it from the other person's point of view.

On the other hand, know he won't listen to me no matter how detailed an argument I give but that doesn't mean I am going to lower myself to his level and simply give a rant. A dishonest rant at that.

Yeah. I hate it too when he sets unrealistic goals for himself. Then he doesn't meet them, and he feels like crap, and he's got like a horde of angry fans yelling at him. What can I say, he cares too much.

So he gets hords of angry fans... Why are you picking on me? The more logical goal would be to focus on posts that are in his face on the GOBLIN'S message board instead of searching out every forum where something negative has been said. I was chased off of it, so that strategy works.

If he didn't care about the fans, if he didn't want to be fair to them, he would just update whenever he wants, take his time, have no set update. He wouldn't stress out has much as he does now. Maybe he would work less and sleep more.
That's not going to happen, you know. Seriously. He wants to make everybody happy, and that's just not possible. So yeah, I'd say when he reads your post, it probably hurts. (I know it hurt me a lot). And if he didn't care about his fans, it wouldn't.

Now... we disagree on this point. Strongly. I think if he really cared about his fans he would set realistic goals. Because any author knows that when he creates a promise and doesn't keep it it makes people upset. Fans are much less likely to get upset when you don't mislead them. Take Erfworld. They used to say updates twice a week. They frequently missed that goal. Fans kept getting mad so they switched the goal to whenever. The fans are now content. See the difference?

It's quotes like this that make you truly aggressive and hurtful. Please try making your arguments without doing that. It makes even your valid points lose any weight they could have had. You're being the guy people look at thinking "oh man, why did that guy have to agree with me?"
I am sure you are able to make your point in a clear, polite manner. I would appreciate if you would do so.

Isn't that you calling the kettle black? You are not exactly being a gracious poster and Thunt certainly was not being polite and reasonable.

Perhaps I am more aggressive then I should be but I edit quite a lot. I thought I was being sufficiently polite given his post, which was nothing but a mean spirited rant.

Perhaps I'll be told that this post was too aggressive as well. I really can't tell. Looks fine as I reread it though. That's the best I can do.

Hey, welcome to the club. Do you know how many people have suggested that? I'm one of them, I should know. Yes, he resisted it strongly.

My point was that Thunt told me I was off base with everything. Clearly, I was not. I also got chewed out in his forum for strongly advocating these things in the past. They were wrong. I, and others that felt the same way, was right. Why should I not feel some satisfaction from that? So what if others said the same things? I don't care why he did it, only that he realized the sense.

He still does. What on Earth made you say "Ah! He's doing one page updates now!"? I mean, the latest update is two pages, for starters. The one before was one page, but the one before that also had two pages.

You misunderstand, I know he does two pages as well as one. The point is that he will not skip a week to do a long update anymore. He wants one update a week. That is a change from how he was.

He's not going to post one page at a time if two pages make for a better cut.

Thunt has already made the crucial switch by moving his archives into a one page per click format. I just think he should finish it by sticking with only one page when he updates. It all comes out the same in the end.

What he's going to do is decide to squish more work in less time by working more than should be legal.

Not saying he should.

He kept working while he was sick, by the way.

That's what a buffer is for. Thunt is one man. One. Kender helps with coloring but he is doing this alone. He has to come up with a reasonable level of arrtwork and keep it consistent. Then he would have more time to do his job and do other things in his spare time.

Thunt is the worst buisness man in the world.

You said it, not I. This is the worry though. Is he able to make goblins his "business"? I don't see it. It's actually looking bad from my perspective.

Who doesn't?

I mean, since tomaO2 has stated himself that he doesn't hate Thunt and also doesn't really think his long-winded posts will have any effect, he must derive some sort of fun from this,

Well, I like complaining about what I don't like. Especially if I think it can be better. Doesn't everyone? I also have ideas. It's fun when people agree with them. I don't care for all of this arguing though. Normally, when this happens I make a few posts and then stop reading the thread because it just gets too much for me. I got sick of mostly getting piled on over at Thunt's forums so I stopped posting there. If I liked to argue, I could have just kept on.

blastwave is a good comic

I really like that one too. I would never dream of complaining about his updating either because he is upfront about it. One comic that gets the updating issue exactly right is Magellan He has an exact time for the issue and if he cannot do it he always posts and says he cannot deliver on that day and sets a new time instead. I really like how he manages it.

Regarding Toma drama, I used to like toma, years ago before his rants got increasingly negative old and tired. Not that I dislike him now, but it gets old after a while, and it is INCREDIBLY negatively and arrogantly spun outside the grain of humility.

*sigh*
This is my problem. I am regarded as some piece of fluff. What I say is irrelevant because the readers see it as nothing but entertainment. I actually mean what I say. I believe in the correctness of my views. I'd suggest HC, that you are looking at my posts in the wrong way.

Besides, this is hardly my drama. I made one critical post and now I am getting jumped on. People want to come on over from the other forum. I don't see this kind of piling on for other people that wanted to say something less then flattering about Thunt on this board. If my tone is worse then it w3was, perhaps it's because Thunt got worse. He has continued to promise more and deliver less. you have watched him for years, as I have. Am I wrong? Look at his archives, there are indisputably less updates over the years and they got smaller.

I said that taking a break, would not change anything unless he changed the way he worked. He did not and things got worse, so my tone got more shrill.

If an argument is right, then it's right. Just because I say the same things doesn't mean that it's somehow become irrelevant.

I'm reminded of another comic I used to read, Dragon Mango, where some characters keep talking bad about a third party who's also part of the conversation, and keep saying "No Offense" after everything. The third party comments "You know, it's hard to not take offense when you KEEP TALKING BAD ALL THE TIME." I paraphrase, but it seems similar.)

I'm criticizing, not talking smack. There is a difference.

Really, it's the same stuff over and over again for years now, with large amounts of a "If you don't do it like I tell you to, you're a (edit)" vibe.

I'm fairly convinced by now that he just does it for the attention.

I feel like I am right. Why should I talk as if I am wrong. Is that how you talk? Do you not have opinions that you feel are better then prevailing wisdom.

I say the same things because it's the same issues that come up. No mystery there.

If I did it for the attention why am I posting here? I post here to I don't get the raved fanboys tearing me alive. I don't feel that I get a fair shake. I have heard little to say I am wrong in my opinions when I do. I'll consider it.

As it is this time around, I disagree with most all of his points. Thunt has been more reliable since the New Age began, we're noticeably moving much faster these days than we were for a while, much closer to what things used to be like. This is a fairly impressive feat given that he's getting more and more detailed, and he's doing fairly labor intensive action scenes mostly at the moment.

I never said he wasn't but missing an average of one update in four is hardly "good" for a man that has made this his job AND who promised to do much, much better in the years leading up to this.

I believed Thunt when he said that. I honestly thought he would get consistent updates on time. Just another broken promise. I suppose I am a bit bitter about it. *shrugs*

And as I understand it, the main reason for the downtime at the start of the new age was because he was moving to a new lower cost locale, so that he'd be more likely to maintain his family on Goblins. Which seems to be working fairly well for now.

This is why I have been pointing out that the new age started on November 15th. Thunt quit his job and made his big announcement on Saturday, September 20, 2008. Remember the drawing marathon? He had almost 2 months for the moving in to his new home. I'm not even counting that. Why? because that would be totally unfair. He told us updates would be spotty. I appreciated that. I don't hold it against him.

And I think he'll only be getting better as he gets more used to how he has to pace things, and after he gets Book II out to the printers and all.

For your sake, I really do but it's been three months now and I don't see anything encouraging to be confident in that opinion, which is why I made a critical post for the first time in, like six months? More? This isn't exactly something I do frequently anymore.

[averagejoe]

After reading the Dominic Deagen forum threads, can you really accuse me of bashing? Read it again. That is the kind of thing that is pure venom. They don't even take it seriously anymore. It's just done for fun.

I don't think I've ever loved that thread more than I do now.

[Twin2]

The point is that I am not doing any thing dispicable. I occasionally make some critical posts in one thread, not bashing posts. They are not to bash, I'm just giving criticism. You can see the difference if you look at the Dominic Deagen thread.

We kid because we love.

No, some people do bad. I am not doing bad. I gave valid criticism. A person need not apologize for that.


No, that's not it at all. I meant that my post hurts him because he knows better, he knows I am offering valid criticism. It's not because anything I say is inherintly mean or wrong. The people that do that, are people he can ignore because they don't have anything worthwhile to say.

See here's the thing your criticism is your opinion, but you act as if it is absolutely the right thing to do when what works for you doesn't necessarily work for anyone else. Instead of just leaving it out there you continue on about how, "I take a large measure of satisfaction that he finally realized that I had the right of the matter." So for all the good you could be doing you just come off really smug and condescending regardless of the intent.

Though it's interesting to hear about the "hordes of people" defending thunt's so called "mistakes". If that is happening then perhaps what he is doing is working.

[Hands_Of_Blue]

Awww, the poor minotaur.

[tomaO2]

We kid because we love.

I loved Goblins once and I wanted to give suggestions to make it better. You "kid" just for the sake of it. How is that better?

See here's the thing your criticism is your opinion, but you act as if it is absolutely the right thing to do when what works for you doesn't necessarily work for anyone else. Instead of just leaving it out there you continue on about how, "I take a large measure of satisfaction that he finally realized that I had the right of the matter." So for all the good you could be doing you just come off really smug and condescending regardless of the intent.

Though it's interesting to hear about the "hordes of people" defending thunt's so called "mistakes". If that is happening then perhaps what he is doing is working.

I get this argument a lot. I don't understand it though. Never have. I believe it's the right thing. I say why I believe it's the right thing. What else should I do? If I am wrong, I try hard to be open to that but I don't get the idea of sabotaging your own ideas by not making the strongest case you can for them. Especially when you make your first post.

As for being sastisfied with the result... Well, why not? I got hounded for what I've said. This isn't me stating these things for the first time. It's kind of like an "I told you so" at this point. I get treated like a pariah but can't enjoy some vindication?

You don't know what it's like. You go into the Dominic Deagen forum. You say it's crap. Everyone praises you for saying so and you log off, all satisfied. I would love that kind of consensus too but it seems my views are usually contrary to popular opinion, so I have to suffer the consequences of that. It's not fun. I am quite earnest in my beliefs though. I don't say things that people respond to for lols.

Finally, hoards of fans following the party line is not a sign that things are going right, in my opinion. I have read numerous times how an author allowed himself to get caught up in people saying how good he was on his own forum. They would stifle dissent. The artist never improved. They only got better when they take an outside opinion and realize that maybe, just maybe, that person has a point.

[Felius]

I don't think I've ever loved that thread more than I do now.

Indeed. Mind if we steal that quote for posteriority?

Anyway, back on topic, TomaO2 is indeed offering valid criticism, and while many readers still support Thunt unconditionally, there many many others that have been put out of goblins altogether because of the erratic update schedule. Sure, his opinions are right and conflicting ones are wrong, but so does everyone. The whole reason while they are your opinions is because you think that it is right. You never hear anyone saying, "hey I have a wrong opinion about this". TomaO2 is no different, and although he does sound smug about it sometimes, it still is valid and reasonable polite criticism. The answers to him, not so much...

Ok, going back to the point again, Twin2, one webcomic having "hordes of people defending one's mistake" proves absolutely nothing about the quality of such webcomic. Not to cite names, as quality is very subjective, but no matter what webcomic, no matter how bad it is, how *expletive* awful it is, no matter, there will be still be fans giving unconditional love to the comic and it's author. It may be a small fraction of the internet, but there is a LOT of people in the internet, even in the webcomic "turf".

While I don't believe any of us do prefer erratic and sporadic update schedules, many will tolerate if the webcomic is of their liking, indeed. But I don't think it's hard to see why such thing is a bad business model. If this just were thunt hobby, while it is a little annoying updates that sporadic, it wouldn't be that bad. I can't deny, Thunt does put a lot of work on his webcomic, but that's not the point. When making a business out of webcomics, it's, to some extent, more important to keep a reliable schedule than to have perfect art. Not to say it need to be a fast schedule. Though such thing is nice, even having a bi-weekly schedule and keeping it will help to reduce the flak and keep fans happy.

This all, said, yes I do like Goblins a lot. It's a very nice webcomic, even with the erratic nature. But still not a good business model as it currently is. If it were just a hobby, and didn't made schedule promises that he couldn't keep, I wouldn't even be posting this. I would be defending Thunt, as he would be doing it just because he felt like and didn't said that there would be updates every (something)day. Heck, I do like and keep reading such as Dragon Mango, and it updates every once in a blue moon, though I only actually check it once every a blue moon as well... I even check Elf Only Inn and Legendary (hint, hint :P) every so ofter just to see if some miracle happened and they started updating again...

Anyway, I wrote somewhat a lot, and it got a little redundant with current tomaO2 post, but I'm not going to let all the time I took to write this post go to waste...

Quick edit: Just found by complete accident a quite nice text relevant to the debate and arguing. Quite a nice reading and very valid points:

http://www.zompist.com/arguing.html

Also, if you allow me a quote:

Someone (unfortunately I forget who) mentioned that the best thing an academic can have is a good enemy. Your friends will, perhaps, read through your papers and make a few comments. But only an enemy will read through an entire book, for free, finding every error and questionable statement.

[Twin2]

I loved Goblins once and I wanted to give suggestions to make it better. You "kid" just for the sake of it. How is that better?

This is apples and oranges really. You're giving your opinion, and we're pulling a MST3K. They are two entirely different things really.

I get this argument a lot. I don't understand it though. Never have. I believe it's the right thing. I say why I believe it's the right thing. What else should I do? If I am wrong, I try hard to be open to that but I don't get the idea of sabotaging your own ideas by not making the strongest case you can for them. Especially when you make your first post.

As for being sastisfied with the result... Well, why not? I got hounded for what I've said. This isn't me stating these things for the first time. It's kind of like an "I told you so" at this point. I get treated like a pariah but can't enjoy some vindication?

Perhaps it's you. For all the good you're trying perhaps you are wrong about this. That's something you need to be asking yourself if you are constantly experiencing the same thing over and over again.

You don't know what it's like. You go into the Dominic Deagen forum. You say it's crap. Everyone praises you for saying so and you log off, all satisfied. I would love that kind of consensus too but it seems my views are usually contrary to popular opinion, so I have to suffer the consequences of that. It's not fun. I am quite earnest in my beliefs though. I don't say things that people respond to for lols.

Seriously go look at the archives of the original deegan threads. People enjoyed the comic, and even in the new threads some still do (I do enjoy some of them myself), but for all of that the main thing is that everyone is being respectful in their opinions and having fun doing it. It seems like that element is missing somewhere here.

Finally, hoards of fans following the party line is not a sign that things are going right, in my opinion. I have read numerous times how an author allowed himself to get caught up in people saying how good he was on his own forum. They would stifle dissent. The artist never improved. They only got better when they take an outside opinion and realize that maybe, just maybe, that person has a point.

But then again people saying it is good can be right as well. Honestly I feel for you, but you've got to distance yourself a bit here. You've posted your opinions, the author has theirs which don't match them so the best you can do is ironically enough hope for the best.

Ok, going back to the point again, Twin2, one webcomic having "hordes of people defending one's mistake" proves absolutely nothing about the quality of such webcomic. Not to cite names, as quality is very subjective, but no matter what webcomic, no matter how bad it is, how *expletive* awful it is, no matter, there will be still be fans giving unconditional love to the comic and it's author. It may be a small fraction of the internet, but there is a LOT of people in the internet, even in the webcomic "turf".

True, I guess it's just part of me that dislikes always hearing that "all these people liking this are wrong" phrase being tossed about. I guess I get caught up the the shouting match mentality of it all.

[averagejoe]

Indeed. Mind if we steal that quote for posteriority?

I can think of no better reason to do anything.

[High-Chancellor]

I feel the need to apologize to Toma, because while I do disagree on a few key points, I can recognize the spirit of criticism. I don't think I ever noticed people hounding you/him back when he used to participate in the goblins forums... and I didn't mean to imply by "Toma drama" that it was purely of his own machination. Merely that it was drama dragged back up because toma started being tomaishly critical again.

Really toma, put some points in charisma. Your entire tone of writing doesn't help you at all, and apparently that's when editted.


In Thunt's defense for his response, from what I've heard from him in the feed he is feeling incredibly stressed by all the people disappointed and angry at him for being so late.



I'm a bit confused though... when you say "missed updates" you simply mean late correct? Because of note, while he's often still late, he IS updating more often than he was before the change.


EDIT: I feel inclined to state also, regarding my "no offense" example. The characters involved really DIDN'T mean any offense, they were simply stating the truth as they saw it as part of conversation and they weren't doing so in a mean way, they were actually trying to help the party involved. But it was still pretty much talking bad, and the third party still took offense after it was done enough.

[Tempest Fennac]

I know what you mean, Hands of Blue. To be fair, he's probably going to be happier where he is now then he was in GS's dungeons.

[Sholos]

Though it's interesting to hear about the "hordes of people" defending thunt's so called "mistakes". If that is happening then perhaps what he is doing is working.

By this logic, Ctrl-Alt-Del is one of the best comics out there.

[Gez]

By this logic, Ctrl-Alt-Del is one of the best comics out there.

Oh, it is. From a certain point of view. Namely, the one that looks at the profitability/effort ratio.

[Sholos]

Oh, it is. From a certain point of view. Namely, the one that looks at the profitability/effort ratio.

No, no. That's efficiency. Ctrl-Alt-Del is efficient.

On the side of drawing, and slow updates, can I point to this comic? Lots of fun detail, big pictures, and didn't take a week to draw. Now, I know that different artists are going to have different skill levels, and I also know that Pete is one of the best out there, so maybe the comparison is a little unfair. But still, does it really take over 100 hours to draw two pages of Goblins? It seems slow.

[Twin2]

By this logic, Ctrl-Alt-Del is one of the best comics out there.

You mean it's not?

[Sholos]

You mean it's not?

Not really. It's not as mind-numbingly awful as some people would have you think, but it's not spectacular, either.

[The Linker]

This whole conversation makes me really, really glad I don't care about how fast updates come out. Like, at all. I mean, I like reading Goblins. I enjoy the updates. But, despite that, Goblins is such a small part of my life. I have school. I have work. I have video games. If there isn't a Goblins comic? Big woop, I can do something else. I'll read it when it comes out. I just don't base my life around when some webcomic gives an update. Not that it applies to Goblins only -- I'm a big OotS fan, but Rich could go on an unplanned hiatus for two weeks and I honestly wouldn't care. Same with SMBC.

Perhaps it's because I've been in his shoes, writing episodic content that started to slip very much from what I planned. It may seem like a simple solution to say "Sorry guys, it's gonna be late." But, when you've done that the last three times too, you just can't. It kills you. You're going out there into the crowd of people that are waiting with baited breath, and you have to tell them to their face, "Er... maybe later?" It really is harder than it might sound, and so very much easier to just hide and hope they don't tear into you too much. Overall, it's just super-stressful to be late and knowing there are so many people waiting. Even the people encouraging you and saying, "I can wait, it's OK. I know you'll get us something."... that starts to hurt too, the feeling that you're letting the NICE guys down too. It's all very discouraging and painful. I feel it's the least I can do to just wait silently, really.

I guess I'm not trying to really defend or justify either of us here. I just thought I could give a clearer view of the other side -- of course, Thunt may not be like me at all. *shrug*

[Destro_Yersul]

This whole conversation makes me really, really glad I don't care about how fast updates come out. Like, at all. I mean, I like reading Goblins. I enjoy the updates. But, despite that, Goblins is such a small part of my life. I have school. I have work. I have video games. If there isn't a Goblins comic? Big woop, I can do something else. I'll read it when it comes out. I just don't base my life around when some webcomic gives an update. Not that it applies to Goblins only -- I'm a big OotS fan, but Rich could go on an unplanned hiatus for two weeks and I honestly wouldn't care. Same with SMBC.

This. I have a lot of webcomics I read, and some of them update very infrequently. I don't mind. It's awesome when there's an update, but if I have to wait a bit for one, that's ok. Same with the video game industry. Sometimes games get pushed back. Delays happen. That's alright. It just means the final product will be more polished, more complete, and more in line with the level of quality we've come to expect from comics such as Goblins. Infrequent updates don't make an awesome thing any less awesome.

[Felius]

This. I have a lot of webcomics I read, and some of them update very infrequently. I don't mind. It's awesome when there's an update, but if I have to wait a bit for one, that's ok. Same with the video game industry. Sometimes games get pushed back. Delays happen. That's alright. It just means the final product will be more polished, more complete, and more in line with the level of quality we've come to expect from comics such as Goblins. Infrequent updates don't make an awesome thing any less awesome.

I believe no one here is arguing that the schedule problems makes goblins a bad webcomic. It doesn't. It still is a terrific webcomic, one of the best comics in the internet. Still it is both a little annoying for those who want to keep with the story, but more importantly, it's a bad business model.

Employees might be payed on a per-hour basis, but Thunt is a freelancer here. It doesn't matter at all how much time he works on the comic, just what is delivered. This might sound harsh, but sadly is the truth. People won't care if you have worked on a single page 30 hours or 3 hours, they will just see it's final quality.

Also, it doesn't matter for you if Thunt goes on Hiatus, but it does matter for one person. Thunt himself. As the webcomic is his main (and possibly only) income source, a Hiatus will really hurt him, as people won't visit so often, won't give him ad-views, are very less likely to donate, and for all reasons, are likely to result in delays in books which he could sell.

[High-Chancellor]

Which is probably the main reason he CAN'T really build a buffer. The level of quality he expects and wants to get for his updates wont let him.

And I think I may have said it before, but in any case I'll say it again.

Making something lower quality just to produce more of it doesn't make things more awesome, it makes things LESS awesome. Lots of people eat McDonalds, but that doesn't mean they think it's great food. This is why places like Red Robin and TGI fridays and the various steakhouse and grill restaurants stay in business. It's more expensive, and the food takes longer, but so much better that it becomes worth it.

Not that I'm saying it would be a bad comic if it was more cheaply produced, but it would definitely be noticeably of lower quality.

[Sholos]

Which is probably the main reason he CAN'T really build a buffer. The level of quality he expects and wants to get for his updates wont let him.

And I think I may have said it before, but in any case I'll say it again.

Making something lower quality just to produce more of it doesn't make things more awesome, it makes things LESS awesome. Lots of people eat McDonalds, but that doesn't mean they think it's great food. This is why places like Red Robin and TGI fridays and the various steakhouse and grill restaurants stay in business. It's more expensive, and the food takes longer, but so much better that it becomes worth it.

Not that I'm saying it would be a bad comic if it was more cheaply produced, but it would definitely be noticeably of lower quality.

Again, it may be a bit unfair, but I point to Sluggy Freelance. If Pete only produced one page a week, but still kept his same production, he'd have a huge buffer. I find it hard to believe that Thunt is that much worse of an artist. If so, I think I'll have to attribute it more (or entirely) to Pete just being supremely epic.

[High-Chancellor]

No offense to Pete, because he does a great job, but his artwork is more shapeless and far less detailed than Thunts in general. For instance the eyes, and faces in general. Petes eyes are generally just a few lines to give the impression of expression. Thunt actually draws eyeballs with defined shapes to them. Pete's faces are basically a human thumb with some eyes and a mouth in different expressions thrown on, Thunt's faces are pretty much made of sillypuddy with how much they stretch and change when portraying different emotions, with a lot more depth to the noses/cheeklines/bonestructure etc.

It doesn't really compare.

Thunt HAS drawn more simplistic stuff before, and granted he pumps it out a lot faster, but it wouldn't have the same emotive qualities and epic feel if he did so I do not think.

[Sholos]

No offense to Pete, because he does a great job, but his artwork is more shapeless and far less detailed than Thunts in general. For instance the eyes, and faces in general. Petes eyes are generally just a few lines to give the impression of expression. Thunt actually draws eyeballs with defined shapes to them. Pete's faces are basically a human thumb with some eyes and a mouth in different expressions thrown on, Thunt's faces are pretty much made of sillypuddy with how much they stretch and change when portraying different emotions, with a lot more depth to the noses/cheeklines/bonestructure etc.

It doesn't really compare.

And yet, Pete's artwork conveys an amazing amount of emotion. I think that it goes to show that too much detail runs into the diminishing returns wall.

Thunt HAS drawn more simplistic stuff before, and granted he pumps it out a lot faster, but it wouldn't have the same emotive qualities and epic feel if he did so I do not think.

Are you saying that Pete's work has never been incredibly emotional and epic? I present this comic and this comic. Spoiler warning on the first link.

Both of those are what I'd call epic, and both have a ton of emotion in them. In fact, I'd say those strips (well, that specific arc, really) is a lot more epic and a lot more emotional than what Goblins has done so far.

There's also the pacing. The sheer slowness of Goblins makes the epicness seem less, as well as the emotional impact. At least, it does for me.

So, all in all, I'd say Thunt puts a little too much detail in his work.

[averagejoe]

Are you saying that Pete's work has never been incredibly emotional and epic? I present this comic and this comic. Spoiler warning on the first link.

His use of black and white is pretty good, as well as his use of lighting, but his figures could definitely use some work. They often look stiff, flat, or unnaturally posed. His shading and perspective could use a bit of work as well, since they do basically the same thing to his art as my first point. I mean, it's not bad, I enjoy comics with worse art, it's just kind of mediocre.

As for the emotion and epic: First let me justify my criticism; I don't read Sluggy Freelance (though I have tried. No particular gripes about it, but it really is very unfriendly to new readers, and I haven't felt like putting the effort in. I suppose I'll read it someday, just because a lot of people seem to like it.) As such, these two pages are the only samples that I have of his art, so I might be off base here.

This comes of as pretty unsubtle; the situation seems as or more important than the art in conveying the emotion of the scene, and the rest comes from the color being composed in such a way that it is obviously supposed to be very emotional. (Which is to say, he uses a lot of black.) I mean, unsubtle drama isn't inherently bad, but if it's an artist's only trick then that artist is, in my opinion, still in need of work. Thunt has used this trick to invoke emotion, but he can also do so in lots of subtle ways. As I said, I could be wrong on this point, as I have a relatively small sampling of the comic, but it honestly isn't very impressive as far as that goes.

[High-Chancellor]

If you think either of those scenes is more emotional OR epic than... for instance... Kore killing Taps, I don't think we're ever going to reach common ground on this.


In any case, aside from average joe making excellent points (Though I DO enjoy sluggy freelance, or did for a long while rather) I feel I must clarify my point, because I don't seem to have conveyed it accurately.


Thunt's actual portrayed character emotions generally have more depth and expression than Pete's, who relies more on story pacing/tone and lighting to convey his depth.

Thunt also generally uses more dynamic positioning and poses. But averagejoe touched on that.



Which is nothing against Pete, he's a good artist and has refined his drawing style for his comic fairly well. But I don't find the comparison fair at all. Apples and oranges.

[Lissou]

There is no doubt in my mind that if Thunt used a simpler style, he could pull off several updates a week. He could even draw more updates while redrawing the previous ones, every week.

But is it something he should do? One of the strength of Goblins is the amount of detail and the cinematic angles, zooming in and out and such. If Sluggy Freeland or the Order of the Stick were a movie, Goblins would be a 3D movie. It's just different, and special.

If Thunt had started the webcomic that way, it would be one thing. But he's drawing it this way. His fans are people who like his art, the colouring, the special effects. People who can appreciate the shine on earrings, armour or swords. And more importantly, that's the way Thunt wants to do it, to tell his story, and that makes it the way it should be told. He's the author.
I strongly believe that the best possible style for the Order of the Stick is the style Rich Burlew chose, and I believe just as strongly that Thunt's style is the best possible style for Goblins.

Each page, no, each panel of the comic is a work of art that has enough to feed the eyes for up to hours. It just annoys me that so many people demand a new update when they haven't really finished reading the old one.

It just feels like they're getting a piece of cake, take a bit and then demand a new piece of cake. Why don't you finish the one that's on your plate? If you just want to know what's happening, get someone else to read the story when it's done and give you a summary. If you want to read a graphic novel, remember that it's a graphic novel.

Note that I am not insulting the other artists. The Order of the Stick is still my favourite webcomic (sorry Tarol. You're still sexier than Rich though), and I applaud Burlew's decisions regarding his webcomic, because it works.
And I do think a story is more important than art, but by that, I mean that a story will keep me there even if the art is only average, not that the art SHOULD be average. If the art is great, I'm not going to ask the artist to do a less great job so I can read the story faster.

So yes, Thunt would be faster if his style was different, but it's not. And he's a perfectionist, he already doesn't detail things as much as he'd want to, especially the colouring (although it might be the case for the drawing as well. I wouldn't know, but I can't imagine him detailing things more).

I don't want Thunt to draw things differently. I want to still be able to feel textures and materials when I look at his comic. I want to be able to recognise the guards from one update to the next even when there are many of them. I want to look at Nail and wonder how the fur would feel on his ears.

I've always said that I think Goblins work better as books that as a webcomic. But I've not sure if it's true anymore. Having one week to look at each update actually helps give it the attention it needs. And it's even better when you can watch it being worked on :)

[ichini_sanshigo]

I hate to be an echo chamber, but I think some things that have been said bear repeating, at least because I share those feelings too. I do wish their would be more frequent updates, If only because I'm totally hooked on the story and I can't wait for the complete series to come out on book. I disagree with Lissou in that I do think Goblins would work better as a nice size book that I could hold in my hands and peruse at my leisure, taking the time to really, really appreciate the detail that Thunt has packed into this story. Because he has. Packed in detail, that is.

Spoilers ahead!


Remember when GS discovers Caine's body? Everything about that strip, GS's position, the look on his face as it changed from confusion and disbelief, to grief, to grief and rage... it was just epic. GS is a thoroughly despicable character, but for one moment, just one moment, I felt sorry for this guy who had just lost his best friend.

For another example, take the whole sequence at the Viper clan camp when the tent fell. Or any battle scene. Thunt is great with packing emotive detail into scenes with lots of characters without having the whole scene become a confused mess. Are there any other webcomics that combine that level of non-stylized affect with dynamic body postures and realistic panel-to-panel consistency? Please tell me so I can get addicted to them too.

Okay, now that I've gushed all over the place, I want to note that it would be economically practical for Thunt to produce more stuff faster, as he could have more site visits and ad views, and more material for merchandise. I don't like the notion that he has to choose one or the other (quality or quantity) and wish there could be a happy balance.

[Tempest Fennac]

Ironically, my reaction to GS discovering Saril's corpse was "I hope you have 10,000 GPsworth of diamonds and a level 13 Cleric handy". I know what you mean about how things are drawn, though.

[Lissou]

So... I know the main thing of this update is Nail vs GS, and "It's payback time, bitch!"

But... Anyone noticed the minotaur? The bolts and blood are here, but not the Minotaur's body. Did he disappear? Was he carried further away by the crowd? Does it have anything to do with how weird the bolts are?
I really wonder what's up with that.

[Tempest Fennac]

I doubt Thunt would forget to draw him in, so I'm guessing he got carried away; the bolts aren't likely to be able to make corpses vanish and I can't think of any other logical explanations. Do you guys agree that Nail was a Bugbear? I'm assuming he was.

[Lissou]

I doubt Thunt would forget to draw him in, so I'm guessing he got carried away; the bolts aren't likely to be able to make corpses vanish and I can't think of any other logical explanations. Do you guys agree that Nail was a Bugbear? I'm assuming he was.

Yes, Nail = Bugbear.