Goblins

[Tempest Fennac]

You could have a point there, Winter. Is it just me or is it worrying how none of GS's "research" would help in the implausible event of an attack on Brassmoon, yet the mayor is fine with him spending I-don't-know how much money on dungeons and torture devices?

[The Linker]

Well, it IS possible that through his research, Goblinslayer has found the best ways to efficiently deal with each race. For instance, take this comic. Though his torture, he may have found out that those guys (bugbears?) have an unusually thin soft and easily, uh, pierceable skull, or he may have learned exactly the right place to cut the neck. Perhaps he learned that cutting the belly is especially painful for a bugbear and would make him less able to fight back, who knows?

[Lissou]

People with English as their native language are incapable of pronouncing an 's', a 'z' or an 'n' after a hard consonant at the start of a word (keeping in mind that an 'x' is really either 'ks' or 'gz') that's why they have sychology, nives and zylophones rather than psychology, knives and xylophones.

And Zykon instead of Xykon :P I pronounced it "Gzykon" until the joke about people misspelling it :P

[High-Chancellor]

There are also ways to damage the vocal chords without simply cutting them, in ways that would leave external scars. And the tongue would have to be removed also to really make the person really mute, if they weren't anyways. Otherwise they'd still be able to be all whisper-y.


(I still pronounce it closer to Gzykon, personally.)

[GenocideAlive]

You could have a point there, Winter. Is it just me or is it worrying how none of GS's "research" would help in the implausible event of an attack on Brassmoon, yet the mayor is fine with him spending I-don't-know how much money on dungeons and torture devices?

I find the problem with Goblins is a little less of the intricacies of bureaucracy and a little more with cardboard characters. Everybody in the Goblin squad is unquestionably Good. Everybody fighting them is unquestionably Evil. Sometimes I find myself starving for characters that have more dimension than wanting to rule the world, base emotions, or simply to "rescue the princess". The little guys are so endearing, but wanting to pinch their cheeks wears off after the first year or so.

Updates are quite sparse, and getting filler comics about nobodies is very frustrating. Three weeks to a couple of months between plot advancement really kills my interest in the comic, and the fact that they invaded Brassmoon over a year ago speaks volumes to the comic's pacing. In game terms, I'm not sure how many levels they would have gained after this adventure, but I don't see how they would get less than around 3-4 a piece. Seems a little crazy.

[tomaO2]

I actually remember asking Thunt about what good all the torturing did.

He said that that the guards have indeed learned things from it. He mentioned that we should look at it like how the Nazi's learned about the human body during their experiments. He assured me that there would be some sort of concrete advantages given to the guards from the torture that would be shown over the course of the comic. That's advantages beyond learning how to torture the monsters more effectively.

That was a long time ago. So far we haven't seen any tactical benifit while the fighting rages on the guard's part but I assume it will show itself eventually.

Perhaps after the prison escape? I think an escape is inevitable at this point so GS's army will be unable to really show any extreme competence for now. With that out of the way though, I can't help but feel that the Goblin Slayer is going to try and track the escapees, even fight the White Terror, eventually. He'll be prepared that time, so this might be when we see some tricks.

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks, Linker and Toma. I was starting to wonder due to how effective the guards actually are in combat. I think the problem with trying to make all characters incredibly multi-dimentional is that, at least for villians, it can possibly overly complicate things while ending up being unrealistic (eg: some people are just sadistic and power-hungry or deluded in real life*). I know the comic's setting is mainly meant to spoof most D&D settings where things are always good or evil, but do you think anyone with a PC race in the Goblin's setting has tried to establish friendly relationships with nonevil trines of "monsters"? I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't due to how it shouldn't be that hard for adventurers to figure out which groups are likely to enguage in evil acts while finding neutral or good ones.


*Admittedly, I'm misanthropic due to personal experience to the point where I only use half animal races unless I'm forced to stick to Core only when I use Halflings.

[High-Chancellor]

Thaco and Complains are probably both neutral I think, and likely Chief as well. Big Ears is obviously lawful good. I find it obvious that they're the good guys though, because they are protagonists.

I find it bizarre that you think these characters don't have depth really. Even his "filler" characters have depth. The characters have depth up to their ears. The reason for complaint that things have been taking to long is BECAUSE he spends time exploring depth in the NPCs and environment.


If you don't like the pacing between pages for some strange reason when reading through the archives, I'll let you have that. Personally, I think it reads rather well. But complaining about the pacing of the updating, and what he spends the updates on when he gets them done... just seems kind of whiny and pointless to me.

[Tempest Fennac]

There's a new update; Yala's safe for a few moments at least, but it didn't go that well for Pan (or the Drider).

[Raging Gene Ray]

Also, I hope the Drider gets its comeuppance for putting its fellow prisoners at risk like that. It could have ordered the Dwarf to drop its weapons, flee from combat...anything besides "go kill something else. As long as you don't bother me, I've got no problem."

I'm glad to have been wrong there. I hope Pan and Yala both make it through the battle alive and reunited. I'm also hoping Yala turns out to be both literate and a bard capable of penning some sort of epic chronicling the fall of GS.

However, unless that Drider made a comeback or other prisoners approached, Yala still has three spearmen after her.

[averagejoe]

Oh my god, did Thunt just put this in to be super-sad?

Because it's working.

Seriously, I'm going to cry EXTREMELY MANLY TEARS.

[Johnny Blade]

There's a new update; Yala's safe for a few moments at least, but it didn't go that well for Pan (or the Drider).

Or the dwarf. Well, at least it probably didn't hurt for long, eh?

Anyway, that "Die, legless kobold!" line irritates me. It's a little like "It hurts like a sickness!" or the generous amount of signs at the city gates actually - the characters, in this case Pan, need the information, but everyone else seems to go out of their way to make absolutely sure they get it without any need for deduction at all.
And it's not like a simple "Die, kobold!" wouldn't have worked here, since it stands to reason that Pan would have jumped in anyway as there aren't all that many kobolds around.

[Lissou]

Or the dwarf. Well, at least it probably didn't hurt for long, eh?

Anyway, that "Die, legless kobold!" line irritates me. It's a little like "It hurts like a sickness!" or the generous amount of signs at the city gates actually - the characters, in this case Pan, need the information, but everyone else seems to go out of their way to make absolutely sure they get it without any need for deduction at all.
And it's not like a simple "Die, kobold!" wouldn't have worked here, since it stands to reason that Pan would have jumped in anyway as there aren't all that many kobolds around.

Yeah, I know what you mean.
The criticism I'd have for Thunt really is there: his comic is too much like a campaign. In a campaign, the players need to have the information. You can go out of your way for them to get it, or they just die suddenly from effect X they could never have guessed, and they'll never know why.

In a story, neither the characters nor the readers should have everything handed to them on a plate. The fact that everyone who picks up a magic item knows exactly what it does, that people have signs explaining to the main characters what to do next and that they say exactly what would help their enemies annoys me.
To me, it breaks the fourth wall, or the suspension of disbelief, or whatever. It doesn't make sense. I've told him before but... I guess it's the simplest way for him to do it. And he IS a DM after all.

It annoys me with dialogues, but it annoys me with the plot too. I wrote him after what happened to Complains, for instance. Complains knows he fell on the red head, and what the head did, and where it came from, and I don't think it makes sense for him to know.

Of course, now I've accepted that it's one of the "DnD rules" or whatever you want to call them. The people will know things they shouldn't know, say things they shouldn't say, because this way other characters (or the reader) know what's going on. I'm still annoyed by it when I read the comic, but I guess it makes it more game-like.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Anyway, that "Die, legless kobold!" line irritates me....the characters, in this case Pan, need the information, but everyone else seems to go out of their way to make absolutely sure they get it without any need for deduction at all.

I didn't think about that. I figured Pan was just blindly groping for Yala and didn't even pay attention to "legless kobold."

So now that he didn't find her (BTW, I thought for a second he had crushed her then realized that was the dwarf's blood), he thinks she's captured/dead. Wow. Depressing.

[Tempest Fennac]

I thought Goblins was taking part in a campaign? (There is a chance that Herbert is running a separate campaign in the same world for the GAP if they became PCs. Admittedly, I'm guessing that they are still DMPCs, unless Herbert organized the Goblin's part of the story to happen with players who are more mature, and experienced, then Minmax's team.)

[Gez]

Ah, the power of suggestion. "These guys don't need your help to kill me. Go look for a more useful prey." "Good idea. I'm going to attack a legless kobold, that's really going to turn the tides right now."

[petersohn]

Thaco and Complains are probably both neutral I think, and likely Chief as well. Big Ears is obviously lawful good. I find it obvious that they're the good guys though, because they are protagonists.

I also think that Thaco is neutral, but Chief and Complains are good IMO (though Complains is obviously chaotic).

If you don't like the pacing between pages for some strange reason when reading through the archives, I'll let you have that. Personally, I think it reads rather well. But complaining about the pacing of the updating, and what he spends the updates on when he gets them done... just seems kind of whiny and pointless to me.

I like the fine details, but sometimes I feel that it is getting boring because of the lack of plot advancement.

[Winterwind]

I thought Goblins was taking part in a campaign? (There is a chance that Herbert is running a separate campaign in the same world for the GAP if they became PCs. Admittedly, I'm guessing that they are still DMPCs, unless Herbert organized the Goblin's part of the story to happen with players who are more mature, and experienced, then Minmax's team.)

Yes, but that doesn't mean the story itself absolutely needs to be structured like a campaign; while potentially adding some authenticity, it makes for sub-par story telling, for the very reasons Lissou outlined. And I agree with her and Johnny Blade - while overall, the writing in Goblins is excellent, these elements she pointed out are the worst by far. Why a page with text explaining the nature of the Axe of Prissan, when it would have been more interesting and more natural if everybody, Big Ears included, was left speculating about this weapon's unique nature and found out its secret only over time? Why the signs that make the gate control room appear less like a control room but more like an awkwardly presented puzzle?


And I agree with averagejoe. The Pan & Yala strips are amongst the saddest Thunt has ever shown to us so far (probably together with the guardians tearing Fumbles' elven puppet apart). And extraordinarily effective at that.

[Johnny Blade]

Of course, now I've accepted that it's one of the "DnD rules" or whatever you want to call them. The people will know things they shouldn't know, say things they shouldn't say, because this way other characters (or the reader) know what's going on. I'm still annoyed by it when I read the comic, but I guess it makes it more game-like.

Oh, I don't know. I still find it pretty ham-fisted, game-like or not.

Although, of the examples that you and Winterwind listed, I didn't actually mind the Axe of Prissan, mainly because this one actually made sense to me. It's a dangerous item, so throwing some spell that informs a paladin about the weapon's background into the mix seems fairly prudent to me. Plus, that thing is holding a powerful demon captive, so whoever created it would be able to take care of that as well.

I agree, however, that it was disappointing to see Complains realize a lot of what happened to him when he landed on the pit fiend head (or whatever it was exactly). It would have had a lot of potential, story-wise. Granted, it still has, but some of it was wasted.


Anyway, to end this post on a more serious note, I agree that Thunt is really good at making you feel horribly sad and compassionate. Taps somehow had much more of an impact on me, but this here comes close.

[T-O-E]

What about Taps? Or the ogre bar? Or Fumbles getting tortured?

[averagejoe]

To me, it breaks the fourth wall, or the suspension of disbelief, or whatever.

You're thinking of willing suspension of disbelief. Breaking the fourth wall is 1) when characters specifically reference the book, story, author, etc. and seem very self aware 2) the visual technique in comics of making your characters interact with or go outside of the panels themselves.

Although, of the examples that you and Winterwind listed, I didn't actually mind the Axe of Prissan, mainly because this one actually made sense to me. It's a dangerous item, so throwing some spell that informs a paladin about the weapon's background into the mix seems fairly prudent to me. Plus, that thing is holding a powerful demon captive, so whoever created it would be able to take care of that as well.

I agree, but it may have been more effective if we, the reader, didn't know. I think the section explaining the axe could have been cut away from that page completely and it would have been more dramatic.

What about Taps? Or the ogre bar? Or Fumbles getting tortured?

Oh... oh my god. THIS IS THE SADDEST COMIC EVER!

[Johnny Blade]

I agree, but it may have been more effective if we, the reader, didn't know. I think the section explaining the axe could have been cut away from that page completely and it would have been more dramatic.

Can't argue with that, but remember what happened to Mr. CaiAAACK's armor.
Had there been no explanation at all for this, people would have gone rabid because of this outrageous Deus Ex Machina.

[Occasional Sage]

Would the Suggestion last beyond the death of its caster? If not, we've got fairly compelling evidence that the drider is still alive, and that'd open up all KINDS of doors.

[Stillthunt]

Okay, I updated "Die, legless kobold!" with something a little less contrived. Better? Suckier?

The good thing about working in the medium of webcomics is that when readers don't like a line, man do they let you know about it! I got quite a few emails about this line and now my inbox hurts like a sickness.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Okay, I updated "Die, legless kobold!" with something a little less contrived. Better? Suckier?

I didn't have any problem with the first line. It really made the dwarf look Evil. "Die, legless kobold!" Why not: "Die, crippled orc" or "Die, comatose goblin?" It really highlighted the "picking on a cripple" thing.

But this new line's even better. And I thought you couldn't make the dwarf look like more of a jerk.

[Tempest Fennac]

I agree with RGR here. The new line is definitly more screwed up then the other one, which was already pretty messed up.

[Winterwind]

The new line reads more natural, in my humble opinion. Sure, it's longer, but it sounds more like something somebody with a sufficiently nasty disposition might say in this situation.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Yeah, the new text is much better. Good luck on your 'suite.

[Johnny Blade]

I agree, it reads much better now.

[Jahkaivah]

Basically what Thunt is talking about is this strip.

When I first saw that picture I thought, "hmm maybe this could work, sure he's got some rubbish ones like Ctrl Alt Del and PvP, not to mention his own webcomics, but hey, Penny Arcade, XKCD, this could work out, as long as the writers help him".

It seems he didn't even ask permission from them, let alone help...

Looking at the first couple of strips in this event I get the impession it's just a parody of various differant webcomics as opposed to an actual crossover. Which is nothing new, webcomics parody each other all the time, but Ryan maybe could have been a bit more diplomatic in his response.