[3.5] I need a good Ur Priest build

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Any class that adds +1 level of Ur-Priest spellcasting still adds +1 to your Ur-Priest caster level, just as though you'd gained a level of Ur-Priest. Any classes that add +1 level to any of your other spellcasting classes don't count for Ur-Priest's +1/2 your levels in other classes for CL.

You could go Illumian with the Krau sigil for another +2 caster level, similar to Practiced Spellcaster. Illumian also qualifies for Able Learner due to being Humanoid (Human). You could even take Enhanced Power Sigils to improve it by another +1, which in the build I proposed you wouldn't even need Practiced Spellcaster: Wizard for with that. However, going Illumian with Enhanced Power Sigils has an equal feat cost to going Human with Practiced Spellcaster x2 since you're losing the Human bonus feat, but if you want to gain Practiced Spellcaster: Ur-Priest along with it you'll come out on top in caster level. You may need to use flaws to get everything you'll want/need soon enough, though.

Illumian (Krau and any other), Sneak Attack Thug 1/ Wizard (Conjurer) 4/ Ur-Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 8/ Abjurant Champion 5, Able Learner (1), Spell Focus: Evil (Flaw), Extend Spell (Flaw), Iron Will (Otyugh Hole), Augment Summoning (Wizard 1), Persistent Spell (3), Enhanced Power Sigils (6), Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell (9), Combat Casting (12), Practiced Spellcaster: Ur-Priest (15), Quicken Spell (18) (or get Craft Wondrous Item at 18 and make a Phylactery at 20 if you can't go epic). That gets Caster Level 20 for Wizard and 19 for Ur-Priest at 20, CL 19 at level 19 for Ur-Priest. You'll have 9th level Ur-Priest spells at 14, 9th level Wizard spells at 20.

[Frosty]

Monk 2/Duskblade 3 gives you 1.5 CL for those 5 levels. How is it not fixed by PS?

Because I only have 10 levels of Ur-Priest, giving me 10 CL. Even if all other classes are spellcasting, I'd only have +15. And then Practiced Spellcaster gives me +19.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Because I only have 10 levels of Ur-Priest, giving me 10 CL. Even if all other classes are spellcasting, I'd only have +15. And then Practiced Spellcaster gives me +19.

That's what Divine PrCs are for.

[Frosty]

That's what Divine PrCs are for.

So we're taking them just for the Caster levels even though the actual spellcasting won't increase?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

So we're taking them just for the Caster levels even though the actual spellcasting won't increase?

And the class features. Increased Rebuking and the like.

[mabriss lethe]

spellthief/ur-priest makes for an interesting flavor. AFB, so I don't know how it will all fit together.

[Chronos]

Note that since you won't get any more spells per day anyway, Heirophant is good for finishing off Ur-Priest. It's really easy to qualify for, too.

[Frosty]

Note that since you won't get any more spells per day anyway, Heirophant is good for finishing off Ur-Priest. It's really easy to qualify for, too.

Perfect. And I don't Sacrifice Spell slots either!

[Lyndworm]

spellthief/ur-priest makes for an interesting flavor. AFB, so I don't know how it will all fit together.

A Spelltheif/Ur-Preist mix is thematically excellent, but a pure Spelltheif is unable to qualify for Ur-Preist until after (at the very least) 8th level because of the requirements. You need:

6 ranks in Bluff (in-class for Spellthieves, so easily done at 3rd level)
5 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) (in class for Spellthieves, so easily done at 2nd level)
5 ranks in Knowledge (the Planes) (cross-class for Spellthieves, so not possible until 5th level)
8 ranks in Knowledge (Religion) (cross-class for Spellthieves, so not possible until 8th level)
8 ranks in Spellcraft (in class for Spellthieves, so easily done at 5th level)

You also need an Evil alignment, Spell Focus (Evil), +3 Fort, and Iron Will. However, I think that most rational DMs would waive the Evil-related requirements.


The figures given above don't include any help from feats. Some ideas:

First off, I suggest Great Fortitude, which could allow you to meet the Fortitude requirement at level 3, depending on how your DM rules.

If you have access to Ebberon feats, I suggest taking Education to qualify for Ur-Preist sooner. It makes all Knowledge skills in-class and gives a +1 bonus to any two, but has to be taken at first level.

If Ebberon's a no-go but you can use RotD feats, then I suggest Able Learner. It requires you to be human or doppelganger and must be taken at first level. It makes all skills (except Speak Language) in-class.


A Human Spelltheif can get into Ur-Preist at 6th level by picking up Able Learner, Great Fortitude, and Iron Will. If your DM requires Spell Focus (Evil), then you can't get in to Ur-Preist until after 8th level because you either need that long to pick up the skill ranks required, or you need to wait until after 9th to get Spell Focus (Evil) or Iron Will.


If you want to get into Hierophant; you'll need 15 ranks in Knowledge (Religion) (If you picked up Education or Able Learner, you can do this by 12th level), any Metamagic feat (also doable by 12th level), and the ability to cast 7th level Divine spells (a physical impossibility until your 7th Ur-Priest level with a Wisdom of at least 24, or your 8th level with a Wisdom of at least 17).

With that in mind, the absolute minimum level required to get into Hierophant with a Spellthief/Ur-Priest build is (most likely) 17th. So...

Spellthief 8
Ur-Preist 8
Hierophant 4

Spellthief Caster Level 12
Ur-Preist Caster Level 16
Three Hierophant Special Abilities

Hope I helped.

Zack

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

To get 5 ranks in a cross-class skill, you need to be at least level 7. To get 8 ranks of a cross-class skill, you need to be at least level 13.

Note that Heirophant's caster level increase still falls under the rule of applying your own bonuses in whatever order is most beneficial. A Cleric 16/ Heirophant 4 with Practiced Spellcaster has a caster level of 24, because he can add his Practiced Spellcaster bonus before adding his Heirophant bonus.

With Practiced Spellcaster: Spellthief and Able Learner, you can go Spellthief 5/ Mindbender 1/ Ur-Priest 10/ Heirophant 4. You'll need at least 14 Int to get the required ranks at Mindbender 1 assuming you're human, and with Practiced Spellcaster: Ur-Priest you'll have a caster level of 20 at level 20. Be sure to pick up Mindsight (LoM).

You could also go Illumian (Krau) Spellthief 1/ Warlock 3/ Mindbender 1/ Ur-Priest 2/ Eldritch Disciple 8/ Heirophant 5. You'll need to use flaws to get Able Learner and Spell Focus: Evil, along with Fey/Fiendish Heritage and Fey/Fiendish Power (CM) to qualify for Mindbender so soon. You'll also need to get an exception for the Special prerequisite of Eldritch Disciple. With Practiced Spellcaster: Ur-Priest you'll have a caster level of 23 at level 20, or 24 with Enhanced Power Sigils.

[Jack_Simth]

Mystic Theurge does not add +1.5 caster level to Ur-Priest per level:

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As-written, no class that does not have its own spell list and spellcasting progression is counsidered a "spellcasting class." As-written, no prestige class that advances another class' spellcasting ability will be counted for Ur-Priest's +1/2 caster level boost. Ur-Priest only counts your class levels in other spellcasting classes, not their effective spellcasting ability, not their effective level for spellcasting ability.

If prestige classes that advanced another class' spellcasting ability were considered spellcasting classes, you could go Swashbuckler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ur-Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 1/ Master Specialist 10/ Archmage 2, and use Master Specialist and Archmage to advance your Mystic Theurge spellcasting, which would advance your Wizard and Ur-Priest spellcasting. This does not work, because Mystic Theurge is not a spellcasting class. Mystic Theurge also does not count for Ur-Priest's +1/2 caster level of other spellcasting classes, because it is not a spellcasting class.

Don't try to argue that "you add your Mystic Theurge level to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has," because "add the character’s ur-priest levels to one-half of his levels in other spellcasting classes." Mystic theurge doesn't add to your level in that class, it doesn't grant you additional familiar abilities, bonus feats, or turn undead ability, and it doesn't count for anything based on your level in that class other than that class' spellcasting ability.

Ur-Priest doesn't care what your spellcasting ability is in any other class. A Hexblade 3/ Paladin of Tyranny 3/ Ur-Priest 1 would have a caster level of 4 despite Hexblade and Paladin of Tyranny each having an effective level of zero for their spellcasting ability. They're still spellcasting classes because they each have their own spell list and spellcasting progression, and Ur-Priest only counts your actual levels in those classes rather than their effective level of spellcasting ability.

"Mystic Theurge adds +1.5 caster level to Ur-Priest per level" is only spoken by cheaters who try to push an improper ruling or claim ignorance of the rules in order to benefit.

It's a bug, that ought to be errata'd and/or house-ruled away, but it does technically work that way:

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Not due to the wording of the Ur-Priest's ability, but due to the wording of the Mystic Theurge's:

Spells per Day: When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.

If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day.

(Emphasis added)
It's a bug in the rules, but his caster level is treated as though he'd also gained a level in the other class. What's the Ur-Priest calculating based on class levels? Caster level. It is very likely not intended, but technically, exactly as written, the Savage Bard-5/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-3 has a Bard caster level of 8, and an Ur-Priest caster level of 9. Mind you, except in cases where this results in a caster level above that of a pure-classes caster, it's not actually very abusive (at least, not any more than an Ur-Priest is normally - 7th level spells at character level 12, and 9th level spells at 14th is a bit much - but then, the Ur-Theurge is sacrificing the ability to grant himself three wishes per day at no XP cost due to the loss of the capstone ability, so....).

As for your specific example, the Paladin of Tyranny levels don't work - the Paladin of Tyranny is a Divine casting class, who's abilities are given up when becoming an Ur-Priest. Assuming the Duskblade is Arcane, those levels work just fine.

You also need an Evil alignment, Spell Focus (Evil), +3 Fort, and Iron Will. However, I think that most rational DMs would waive the Evil-related requirements.

No more so than a rational DM would waive the Exalted requirement for the Apostle of Peace.

First off, I suggest Great Fortitude, which could allow you to meet the Fortitude requirement at level 3, depending on how your DM rules.

... a DM can make basically any table-rule they like, but this one isn't RAW - Great Fortitude gives an unnamed bonus to Fortitude saves, it doesn't increase the base Fort save that Ur-Priest references.

If you have access to Ebberon feats, I suggest taking Education to qualify for Ur-Preist sooner. It makes all Knowledge skills in-class and gives a +1 bonus to any two, but has to be taken at first level.

This works, but with the two other feats needed, basically requires human for earliest entry.

If Ebberon's a no-go but you can use RotD feats, then I suggest Able Learner. It requires you to be human or doppelganger and must be taken at first level. It makes all skills (except Speak Language) in-class.

It does not make all skills in-class. It removes the double skill cost penalty, but leaves the cross-class skill cap in place. If you have Able Learner and a single level of Factotum, then effectively all skills are class skills thereafter - but Able Learner doesn't do it in and of itself.

But yes - if you're going pure Ur-Priest, Heirophant is a decent way to finish off those last five levels. A Savage Bard-5/Ur-Priest-10/Heirophant-5 is a fairly decent, if low-endurance, level-20 character.

[Chronos]

Quoth Jack Smith:

As for your specific example, the Paladin of Tyranny levels don't work - the Paladin of Tyranny is a Divine casting class, who's abilities are given up when becoming an Ur-Priest. Assuming the Duskblade is Arcane, those levels work just fine.

That's probably a reasonable interpretation, but it's not actually what the class says. It says that your caster level is based on your other spellcasting classes, with the specific exception of cleric. Paladin isn't covered by that specific exception, and one could argue that it's still a spellcasting class even if you can't cast spells, just as you can argue that a paladin 3, or a paladin with 10 wisdom, is still a spellcasting class.

Quoth Biffoniacus_Furiou:

Note that Heirophant's caster level increase still falls under the rule of applying your own bonuses in whatever order is most beneficial. A Cleric 16/ Heirophant 4 with Practiced Spellcaster has a caster level of 24, because he can add his Practiced Spellcaster bonus before adding his Heirophant bonus.

By that reasoning, a pure cleric 20 with Practiced Spellcaster also has a CL of 24, since he could add Practiced Spellcaster before his cleric levels. I don't think it works that way.

[Frosty]

Quoth Jack Smith:That's probably a reasonable interpretation, but it's not actually what the class says. It says that your caster level is based on your other spellcasting classes, with the specific exception of cleric. Paladin isn't covered by that specific exception, and one could argue that it's still a spellcasting class even if you can't cast spells, just as you can argue that a paladin 3, or a paladin with 10 wisdom, is still a spellcasting class.

Quoth Biffoniacus_Furiou:By that reasoning, a pure cleric 20 with Practiced Spellcaster also has a CL of 24, since he could add Practiced Spellcaster before his cleric levels. I don't think it works that way.

It does work that way, because The Hierophant adds a bonus to the cleric's base CL. you add bonuses up in the most beneficial order. Cleric 20 just has one bonus: the Practiced spellcaster.

Besides, you're sacrificing 4 effing effective spellcaster levels to get this 4-increase in CL. That's a huge sacrifice.

[Land Outcast]

What about a Mohrg (14 HD) Ur-Priest 10 with Practiced Spellcaster? (That'd be CR 13... by RAW )

Just give him an elite array and, after ability improvements, before items, would end up: 21, 20, -, 14, 13, 18.

After a simple enhancement to wisdom he'd end up able to cast up to ninth level spells at CL 14 (via Practiced Spellcaster).

Via Steal spell-like ability you get your pick of a kickass spell-like ability of whichever creature you decide the Ur-Priest has access...
Example: get someone to trap a Barbazu (bearded devil) via planar binding, just keep it around, don't even bother to try any offers, and your Ur-Priest has "At will— greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only). Caster level 12th. "

[Zeb The Troll]

Troll Patrol: Old thread is old.