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2008-09-28, 01:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112
So... how do you feel about OotS? It has been deeply tragic and ridiculously lighthearted in fairly close proximity to each other. Do you find a deeper logic in OotS than you do in Erfworld, or would you just prefer for a comic to pick a tone and stick with it?
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2008-09-28, 01:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112
At first I thought Erfworld was a silly story about 'cutesy' monsters beating on each other, but I've come to enjoy Erfworld because of how dark it actually is. Not Warhammer 40K dark, but it's actually a pretty grim place. As Parson put it, Erfworld is boopin' hardcore.
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2008-09-28, 01:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112
First, let me start off by saying that your opinions are well thought out and that I respect them. However, I do not necessarily agree.
This story is about "The Battle for Gobwin Knob" - a story about a wargame, specifically about a protagonist playing a wargame. If the material seems to you to be spiraling into increasing levels of harshness/meanness, I would argue that as the story approaches its natural climax and eventual culmination it WILL become more graphic and intense. It is about the endgame of a particular military engagement.
When I read the final panel, I interpreted it as the authors regrounding us in the intent of the story - a guy playing a very real game that he WANTED to play. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0016.html A game with consequences, but a game nonetheless despite the pathos of the previous panels. As demonstrated here, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0063.html, the authors are very capable of showing an enemy force being decimated without a "trite" Hoser Aside as the final panel. Thus, I would argue that the Hoser panel at the end of this installment is there for a very specific reason - a mood lightener. If it didn't work for you, well, you just can't please everyone. Don't read too deeply into it.
As for where the comic is going, or what it's ultimate meaning and intent is...I just don't think we can know until it is all said and done. If you don't think you can follow it to the end, Tam, because you feel wronged by the story in some way it would be quite a shame. But it is certainly your prerogative. I hope though that you'll be patient and ride it out till the end. We've probably got only another 12-20 installments to go.
Peace!
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2008-09-28, 02:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112
Perhaps you could think of it as a soap opera. Those tend to wander between genres all the time.
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2008-09-28, 02:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112
Well, the Order of the Stick works off of a fairly standard set of rules: When good people die it's sad, and when bad people die it's cool and sometimes funny. That's an artificial and wholly unrealistic formula, but it's also the standard formula for western entertainment, and it holds to it pretty closely. The big exception, I suppose, would be Roy's death, but since his demise is temporary and reversible, and since the temporary nature of death in the D&D game is a subject rife for satire, I don't feel that it really violated the spirit of the strip. And even if it did, it's an isolated incident, as opposed to Erfworld, which is consistent only in its inconsistency.
Originally Posted by Charlicat
Originally Posted by Charlicat
And yeah, as noted, the mood-lightener didn't work for me, and I really don't think that trying to lighten the mood served the comic well at that point, IMHO.
Originally Posted by CharlicatLast edited by TamLin; 2008-09-28 at 02:13 AM.
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2008-09-28, 02:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112
Obviously, I disagree. I don't particularly truck with the idea that sheltering people from the horror is any path to a better life. Innocence is overvalued. I think this way because it encourages a lack of responsibility that is, yes, temporal and localized. This holds doubly true, because whether Sizemore likes it or not, he's nominally on "Team Evil."
Having him die is no favor either. Killing him because he's "slightly damaged goods" seems like amputating a leg to treat a cold. I would not preserve any "purity" at that kind of cost. I would rather have people risk insanity and anomie first before I would ever permit such nihilistic solace. This is the willful disregard of life's reality, not an affirmation of it.
No, he needs to see the full extent of the power he wields in the world and the responsibility, both personally and socially, that he has to own up to. He needs to assert his own morality instead of permitting himself to simply go along with the a system that basically serves the selfish ambitions of men like Stanley and others.
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2008-09-28, 02:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112
Try to think of it as a moment of undiluted and ironic horror. Sometimes it helps. If you find it offensive then at least the art's succeeded at arousing deep psychological discomfort. There's obviously a deadly seriousness which belies the facade of the sanitized and adorable imagery of Erfworld. Games are serious business.
Because in a way, Parson however jokingly he's expressing himself, is surrendering to a need to find some way of expressing how arbitrarily unfair the situation is. This is, of course, right after Sizemore observes how hosed his enemies were.
I can't fault Parson for that. If you're a soldier of any kind, you probably take your humor where you can get it.Last edited by LurkerInPlayground; 2008-09-28 at 02:56 AM.
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2008-09-28, 02:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112
alright then do a search on the Stile Project and read up some :warning: material may not be suitable to all age groups!
Avatar: Red Dwagon decapitating a Cloth Golem, wonderfully drawn by Erfworld Artist Jamie Naguchi, oh yea and Rob Balder
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2008-09-28, 03:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112
I fail to see your point. . .
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2008-09-28, 04:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112
I am not going to sit here and tell you what to think. Due to the sensitive subject matter and the rules regarding these boards you will have to take your OWN FREE WILL and make a decision.
This I will say. Take the contents of the wiki article about the Stile Project and apply it to Parson, you will get a clearer picture that he is a counter-culture, world shaking, uncaring towards certain subject matters individual, and it describes Parson's life to a tee.Avatar: Red Dwagon decapitating a Cloth Golem, wonderfully drawn by Erfworld Artist Jamie Naguchi, oh yea and Rob Balder
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2008-09-28, 04:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 124, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112
Sorry then, my bad.
edit: But hmm... I guess his failure to conform to the ethics within that world and still being lavished with praise would be the failure of the book to utilize genre to truly address the problem. It's just unrealistic of him to stay an unbeliever.
Well, it still brings up a lot of conflict on what's real. I guess I shouldn't completely disregard it just because I hate it, that's not fair.
Parson seems to have the same issue, but I think he's leaning towards belief, and his actions are all in line with that thinking, but then the magic forces him to do so, to be so.Last edited by Moechi_Vill; 2008-09-28 at 04:35 AM.
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2008-09-28, 04:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112
To Tamlin,
So... youre saying that the comic is basically spiralling into selfindulent flip-flopping amongst genres. Not only that.. but youre accusing the creators of repeatadly making the mistake. Looking closely at your complaints they seem less like constructive criticism and more like 'your story isnt written the way id do it, so since i dont understand it youre obviously an inferior storyteller'.
This whole comic seems to be painting a picture of 'stuff isnt just black and white' which is what makes revelations about Wanda and Ansom's private (or not so private when its a meltdown in a command meeting) thoughts/lives so appropriate in terms of character development.
I took the final panel as another reminder about the ridiculousness of Erfworld. Parson may well be desensitized to the violence because he isnt experiancing it in person... but even he will have considered the absurdity of a world where people with feelings can get croaked whilst bad words are filtered out, for me the panel does a good job of bringing that point home again.GENERATION 19: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig and add 1 to the generation. This is a social experiment.
''Never argue with idiots, they'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.''
''Common sense is very uncommon.''
''It ain't sin if you crack a few laws now and then, just so long as you don't break any.''
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2008-09-28, 05:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112
I might be an exception, but I had plenty of sympathy for the earlier frags.
I'm enjoying it more now because I want to see them die, in particular mostly but also general.
Also, genre is overrated. Most exceptional stories will be mixtures and something new.
PS. Your first person plural is confusing people. This is why there was an attack on your words earlier after your first two posts. This being a comic forum, it of course, is full of fans who find little wrong with their object of adoration.
I was horrified to find how many people in the OoTS forum thought it was the best webcomic - ever (I personally find it fair at best), after I ran a poll.
Maybe a subsection of the fanbase agrees with you, but you're the only one I've seen posting here.
Its generally safer to use singular until proven otherwise, but there probably are a small number of readers who agree with you.
Personally I find everything in good context. Generals and warriors make crude and/or simple jokes after massacring tons of people. War is often neither treated in a moral and respectful way or even seriously.
Why should litterature have to care, unless its in the realist stream or of its derivative culture so entrnched into this world by the forces of good which focuses on improving the world, through writing in the case of litterature.Last edited by Moechi_Vill; 2008-09-28 at 05:18 AM.
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2008-09-28, 05:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112
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2008-09-28, 05:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112
And last and most of all... don't forget the sword TamLin. That's why he is unimpressed by the slaughter Sizemore has gone through and able to stay in a more neutral mood that allows for triggered (hosed working as a word) joviality.
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2008-09-28, 05:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112
I never said that Mr. Baldwin and Mr. Noguchi are "inferior storytellers", just that the story they're telling right now is all over the map. That doesn't neccesarily reflect on their skills in general, lots of great writers and artists have turned out flawed works at one point or another. And I believe if you look back you'll see that I've complimented their work at many points as well.
And tell me, how exactly does one criticize anything without essentially saying "This isn't the way I'd do it"? When has anyone ever critiqued anything by saying "This was bad, but I'd do the exact same thing"?
Originally Posted by MattR
Originally Posted by MattR
Originally Posted by Moechi_Vill
Originally Posted by Moechi_Vill
Originally Posted by Moechi_Vill
Originally Posted by Moechi_Vill
Originally Posted by Moechi_VillLast edited by TamLin; 2008-09-28 at 05:54 AM.
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2008-09-28, 07:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112
(Er, it's "Balder")
I don't think see the story as being "all over the map" so much as it is setting up a deliberate counterpoint between cutesy trappings and grim events. Probably the most straightforward indication of the impression the writers are trying to create is in Parson's Klog 8:
Originally Posted by Parson
Some of the other characters are a bit more complex, but although Ansom may seem like more or less of a jerk depending on who you ask, there doesn't seem to be much of an argument for calling him evil either ("misguided" or "arrogant" may be the strongest criticism you can level against him).
So things aren't really that ambiguous at all, from where I sit at least. The ambiguity comes in that the teams are mixed up and the "Bad team" has a few good people in it. Really, take away Sizemore and Parson and is there anything about Gobwin Knob that doesn's scream "Evil Doodz"?
Also, you're talking about two of the five significant characters on that side (three, if we add Bogroll). When an argument requires you to separate out that much of the total evidence and call it a special case to be disregarded, the argument is distressingly weak.
But the rest of the comic wasn't about the ridiculousness of the world; rather, it was about how gravely serious the world actually is. This is what accounts for the clash of tones that I've criticized. However, your comment about the irony of censorship next to real violence is the best explanation of the thematic reasoning behind the strip that I've heard so far. But again, if this is all supposed to be ironic or satirical, then the subject should be much more pronounced.Last edited by SteveMB; 2008-09-28 at 08:42 AM. Reason: tupo
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2008-09-28, 07:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112
Great points SteveMB, and I would like to add that the first paragraph in Klog(blog)#2 states that even Parson dislikes this cutesy-boop names and expect a full on rant, but he didnt have time for it. If that is not foreshadowing to a darker story is not forthcoming then for all of the literary knowledge anyone possesses would not prepare you properly for the emotional responses as the story shifts to a more omnious tone then all I can say is... a Obi Wan Kenobi Trope... "The Truth is all dependant on your point of view" and "each side of a coin has it's own face never seeing the other"
Avatar: Red Dwagon decapitating a Cloth Golem, wonderfully drawn by Erfworld Artist Jamie Naguchi, oh yea and Rob Balder
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2008-09-28, 08:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112
Wanda always knew Jack's name. She's from Faq, Jack. Parson had simply not gotten around to asking Wanda about it, yet. He didn't really have any reason to suspect that Wanda knew it, especially if Maggie the Thinkamancer---who had been working with Jack closely for a long time---did not know it. Also, she had been catatonic for a while and was still difficult to talk to. Rob and Jamie waited until that particular frame for plot reasons, not (necessarily) because Wanda was still connected to Jillian mentally.
That and everything else I find plausible. No doubt a lot of it will occur.
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2008-09-28, 08:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112
I hope the Heavy Metal Golem made it through mostly intact.
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2008-09-28, 08:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112
She is? I never thought so. She animates corpses. So? They are resources that will disappear at turn's start. In our world everything is made out of dead corpses. We eat corpses; cows are just specialized units with limited sentience. Everything is recycled through microbes and fungi. In Wanda's world she recycles corpses directly.
Wanda enslaved Jillian? Sure, and she went too far, but she didn't know that until Jillian told her, and take note that Jillian did not think the offense a particularly egregious sin, merely a mistake, an error that might not be repeated.
The only thing that shocked Jillian was that Wanda served Stanley willingly. That, I admit, seems curious, especially considering her enthusiasm for the task, but all we can assume is that Wanda has a real, albeit unknown, reason for doing so. If anything you cannot call her "disloyal." She killed a couple of unipagaturs, a mercenary archon and a handful of orlys at GK, but her purpose seems to have been to serve and protect the same master who rejected her and ordered the croaking of her lover. I don't understand what is going through Wanda's head---she's the most enigmatic character in the story---but she is far too complex to be "evil." That sort sort of two-dimensional label rarely works outside of fairy tales.
A better measure of evil would be 1) How much suffering does she cause, and 2) how much suffering does she try to alleviate? Her status as a torturer/interrogator suggests "evil," but we have only seen her with Jillian. For all we know Jillian is the only one she has ever interrogated. Repeatedly. Given that Stanley always had a lookamancer, regular troops were never worth questioning, just warlords. Does Wanda torture people who do not wish to be tortured? Possibly, but her relationship with Jillian suggests otherwise: Wanda never crossed that line with her but only went as far as Jillian was willing to go.
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2008-09-28, 08:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112
While I agree that there's more to Wanda than is apparent on the surface, this stikes me as a bit of a reach. Stanley describes torture and interrogation as Wanda's "hobbies", and says that she has a talent for it, remember.
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2008-09-28, 08:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112
After all this bullboop (Hrm... what's the Erfworld analog to a bull?) about morality, ethics, schadenfreude, and other such meaningless garbage, it's nice to know that somebody's got his priorities straight.
If/when the inevitable confrontation between Stanley and Parson happens about the correct use of human resources, Parson can point to Sizemore's army of golems (that's what I'd order him to do, day in, day out- make the most powerful golems he can until his power runs out, every day) and remind him that heavy metal is harder than KISS...
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2008-09-28, 09:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112
Hey I totally agree with you Eugenitor, but sometimes you can only let the pot boil over so many times before you actually have to do something about it. The best part about Erfworld is there a little bit of everything for everyone. You can have it as simple or as complex as you want to, it is all up to us the reader to make that choice!
Avatar: Red Dwagon decapitating a Cloth Golem, wonderfully drawn by Erfworld Artist Jamie Naguchi, oh yea and Rob Balder
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2008-09-28, 09:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112
Now as much as I like Wanda's character and as much as she is enigmatic in her motives, I have to disagree here because her mind controlling of Jillian is clearly an evil act within the context of their Dom/sub relationship. If one knows anything about D/s subculture it's that the sub is always in control, or at least always should be in control otherwise it's assault/rape; the Dom can only do what the sub wants, and pretty clearly Jillian didn't want to be mind controlled.
Wanda of course knew that when she asked what Jillian wanted, "easy way or hard way", but when Jillian responds that they run away together and leave the war behind, well Wanda just couldn't have that so she brought out the mind control. Now there's some definite moral ambiguity here because Wanda's betrayal of the nature of their relationship was apparently for a reason very important to her--whatever it is that keeps her loyal to Stanley, it's enough that she was willing to go on a suicidal mission to save him from the ambush. Even so, despite whatever reasons she has for using Jillian against her will, even if it's somehow justified within the context of war, it's still abusive and wrong on a personal level.
I guess it is kind of messed up to have something as serious as that going on within a "cutesy-boop" comic satirizing games/gamers/internet culture, etc. But eh, D/s is subversive in itself so I see it as part of an overall subversion of expectations that's going on in Erworld, which in this thread has been called separately a tragedy and a farce.
I think it's both of those things--externally/beyond the fourth wall it's a satire, with lots of in-jokes and silly representations of things the intended audience would know, but internally it's a serious story with subject such as war, pride and loss. TamLin's argument is understandable, it is rather jarring to have these things placed literally side by side, which could be confusing and even revolting to some.
I personally think it's effective though, since it's exactly what these games ask those of us who play them to do, with Parson taking the immersiveness of them to its extreme conclusion (which incidentally is I think the foreshadowing kreszantas was alluding to).
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2008-09-28, 11:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-28, 11:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112
A shock jockey? Parson? This page? Foreshadowing?
Heck, Parson hates that life and has no impact on anyone else. How in the world are the two of them related, aside from both being disaffected youths?
Here's your hat, sir. Watch out for the trees - they're having seizures.Lead Designer for Oracle Hunter GamesToday a Blog, Tomorrow a Business!
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Elflad
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2008-09-28, 11:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-28, 11:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112
Lead Designer for Oracle Hunter GamesToday a Blog, Tomorrow a Business!
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Elflad
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2008-09-28, 11:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112
Sizemore: Well, Parson, you learned an important lesson today: the only way to kill an Uncroaked is to destroy the brain.
Parson: I also learned that I'm secretly a furry!
Wanda: Too much information, Parson.Last edited by FoE; 2008-09-28 at 11:56 AM.