New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 7 of 11 FirstFirst 1234567891011 LastLast
Results 181 to 210 of 317
  1. - Top - End - #181
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Oracle_Hunter's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by TamLin View Post
    Mr. Baldwin and Mr. Noguchi have made Erfworld much too grim and disturbing to be a comedy (this is a matter of opinion, of course, as is everything, but even so, I contend that most readers look at something like what Wanda did to Jillian and have to consider this material more than a little ****ed up). On the other hand, I don't think that comic takes itself seriously enough to be a tragedy. That basically just leaves farce or satire, but as I've already said, it's not clear what's being satired here, unless it's we the audiece.

    The comic, I feel, has something of an identity crisis going on. It's tough to figure out in what way we're supposed to be enjoying this material. The tone swings back and forth seemingly without rhyme or reason, and it feels like there's a lot of bait and switch going on. It's like eating a big cheeseburger but every third bite tastes like an apple; eventually, never knowing what to expect is going to ruin the potential enjoyment of both elements.
    So... how do you feel about OotS? It has been deeply tragic and ridiculously lighthearted in fairly close proximity to each other. Do you find a deeper logic in OotS than you do in Erfworld, or would you just prefer for a comic to pick a tone and stick with it?
    Lead Designer for Oracle Hunter Games
    Today a Blog, Tomorrow a Business!


    ~ Awesome Avatar by the phantastic Phase ~
    Spoiler
    Show

    Elflad

  2. - Top - End - #182
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2007

    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    At first I thought Erfworld was a silly story about 'cutesy' monsters beating on each other, but I've come to enjoy Erfworld because of how dark it actually is. Not Warhammer 40K dark, but it's actually a pretty grim place. As Parson put it, Erfworld is boopin' hardcore.

  3. - Top - End - #183
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Florida
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by TamLin View Post
    It's not the discomfort that bothers me, it's the lack of clarity in what the comic is trying to do. It feels like the authors are trying to set us up by presenting amusing, farcical, and lighthearted fare one minute and then sucker-punching us the next. And, as noted, the big problem with that is that it's not clear why, what their intent is, what the message (if any) is supposed to be etc. As a result, the material seems aimless, gratuitous, and mean. I don't think that's really the authors intent, but at this point I feel pretty lost by the whole thing.

    I really liked Erfworld at one point, and in many ways I still do. When Erfworld is funny, it's really funny. When it's dark, it's very dark. But as the material becomes more extreme its disassociated nature is becoming a bigger and bigger problem, in my eyes, and it's pretty late in the game now to be still trying to find direction.
    First, let me start off by saying that your opinions are well thought out and that I respect them. However, I do not necessarily agree.

    This story is about "The Battle for Gobwin Knob" - a story about a wargame, specifically about a protagonist playing a wargame. If the material seems to you to be spiraling into increasing levels of harshness/meanness, I would argue that as the story approaches its natural climax and eventual culmination it WILL become more graphic and intense. It is about the endgame of a particular military engagement.

    When I read the final panel, I interpreted it as the authors regrounding us in the intent of the story - a guy playing a very real game that he WANTED to play. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0016.html A game with consequences, but a game nonetheless despite the pathos of the previous panels. As demonstrated here, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0063.html, the authors are very capable of showing an enemy force being decimated without a "trite" Hoser Aside as the final panel. Thus, I would argue that the Hoser panel at the end of this installment is there for a very specific reason - a mood lightener. If it didn't work for you, well, you just can't please everyone. Don't read too deeply into it.

    As for where the comic is going, or what it's ultimate meaning and intent is...I just don't think we can know until it is all said and done. If you don't think you can follow it to the end, Tam, because you feel wronged by the story in some way it would be quite a shame. But it is certainly your prerogative. I hope though that you'll be patient and ride it out till the end. We've probably got only another 12-20 installments to go.

    Peace!

  4. - Top - End - #184
    Orc in the Playground
     
    dr pepper's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2008

    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Perhaps you could think of it as a soap opera. Those tend to wander between genres all the time.

  5. - Top - End - #185
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2008

    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter View Post
    So... how do you feel about OotS? It has been deeply tragic and ridiculously lighthearted in fairly close proximity to each other. Do you find a deeper logic in OotS than you do in Erfworld, or would you just prefer for a comic to pick a tone and stick with it?
    Well, the Order of the Stick works off of a fairly standard set of rules: When good people die it's sad, and when bad people die it's cool and sometimes funny. That's an artificial and wholly unrealistic formula, but it's also the standard formula for western entertainment, and it holds to it pretty closely. The big exception, I suppose, would be Roy's death, but since his demise is temporary and reversible, and since the temporary nature of death in the D&D game is a subject rife for satire, I don't feel that it really violated the spirit of the strip. And even if it did, it's an isolated incident, as opposed to Erfworld, which is consistent only in its inconsistency.


    Quote Originally Posted by Charlicat
    When I read the final panel, I interpreted it as the authors regrounding us in the intent of the story - a guy playing a very real game that he WANTED to play. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0016.html A game with consequences, but a game nonetheless despite the pathos of the previous panels.
    See, that's the disconnect here; Parson is treating his situation like a game despite the fact that it's clearly not; it's a real war that only superficially resembles a game. I find it a little odd that he's still not taking things very seriously, given that the death of Misty would SEEM to have impressed on him the gravity of his situation. However, even given that, I don't think the last panel was neccesary for establishing his attitude, since it was already clear from previous pages, and I think ultimately it seemed tasteless alongside the rest of the page.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlicat
    As demonstrated here, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0063.html, the authors are very capable of showing an enemy force being decimated without a "trite" Hoser Aside as the final panel. Thus, I would argue that the Hoser panel at the end of this installment is there for a very specific reason - a mood lightener. If it didn't work for you, well, you just can't please everyone. Don't read too deeply into it.
    Now, I had that very comic in mind when I was writing my last post. This page is important because the violence is actually quite graphic but you'll notice that it's still being played for laughs; the bubblegum-breathing dragon and the sight gag with the impaled elf show that even a page with no punchline and fairly grim material is still slanted firmly toward comedy. The cartoonish nature of the violence takes the edge off of it. This page is pretty much the anti-page 112; absurd and cartoonish violence with no punchline, contrasted against quite graphic violence and a very broad punchline.

    And yeah, as noted, the mood-lightener didn't work for me, and I really don't think that trying to lighten the mood served the comic well at that point, IMHO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlicat
    As for where the comic is going, or what it's ultimate meaning and intent is...I just don't think we can know until it is all said and done. If you don't think you can follow it to the end, Tam, because you feel wronged by the story in some way it would be quite a shame. But it is certainly your prerogative. I hope though that you'll be patient and ride it out till the end. We've probably got only another 12-20 installments to go.

    Peace!
    I don't think "wronged" is quite the right word, but I do contend that the authors haven't completely fulfilled their obligations as artists. And, ya know, the reason these forums exist is to help give feedback to the people who make the comics, so if I as a reader am not happy with what they're doing it seems appropriate to say so. The "If you don't like it dont' read it" argument never sits right with me, because nobody gains from that. The authors aren't served by never hearing criticism, and a critic isn't served by cutting himself off from material that may in the future better suit his sensibilities. Of course, there does come a point at which something is so awful you have to throw in your hat, but where that bar is varies from person to person.
    Last edited by TamLin; 2008-09-28 at 02:13 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #186

    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter View Post
    Still, puncturing one's innocence, particularly in a world literally built for war, is never something to be celebrated. Worse, Sizemore isn't just learning that he has power, he's learning that he is, in fact, bred to kill and kill well, not just dig tunnels and make crap golems.

    He hates killing, and every time he has to end another life it kills him a bit more inside. Sure, he's a Technical Pacifist but being forced to confront that pretty much all he does is kill is just going to turn him into a Shell Shocked Senior which is not the fate I'd wish on anyone.

    Heck, considering the structure of the game, it probably would have been a kindness for Sizemore to die before he had to order his creation to smoosh the heads of two lovers. The longer he lives the more lives he must take, and it's not a taste he enjoys.
    Obviously, I disagree. I don't particularly truck with the idea that sheltering people from the horror is any path to a better life. Innocence is overvalued. I think this way because it encourages a lack of responsibility that is, yes, temporal and localized. This holds doubly true, because whether Sizemore likes it or not, he's nominally on "Team Evil."

    Having him die is no favor either. Killing him because he's "slightly damaged goods" seems like amputating a leg to treat a cold. I would not preserve any "purity" at that kind of cost. I would rather have people risk insanity and anomie first before I would ever permit such nihilistic solace. This is the willful disregard of life's reality, not an affirmation of it.

    No, he needs to see the full extent of the power he wields in the world and the responsibility, both personally and socially, that he has to own up to. He needs to assert his own morality instead of permitting himself to simply go along with the a system that basically serves the selfish ambitions of men like Stanley and others.

  7. - Top - End - #187

    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by TamLin View Post
    Now, I had that very comic in mind when I was writing my last post. This page is important because the violence is actually quite graphic but you'll notice that it's still being played for laughs; the bubblegum-breathing dragon and the sight gag with the impaled elf show that even a page with no punchline and fairly grim material is still slanted firmly toward comedy. The cartoonish nature of the violence takes the edge off of it. This page is pretty much the anti-page 112; absurd and cartoonish violence with no punchline, contrasted against quite graphic violence and a very broad punchline.

    And yeah, as noted, the mood-lightener didn't work for me, and I really don't think that trying to lighten the mood served the comic well at that point, IMHO.
    Try to think of it as a moment of undiluted and ironic horror. Sometimes it helps. If you find it offensive then at least the art's succeeded at arousing deep psychological discomfort. There's obviously a deadly seriousness which belies the facade of the sanitized and adorable imagery of Erfworld. Games are serious business.

    Because in a way, Parson however jokingly he's expressing himself, is surrendering to a need to find some way of expressing how arbitrarily unfair the situation is. This is, of course, right after Sizemore observes how hosed his enemies were.

    I can't fault Parson for that. If you're a soldier of any kind, you probably take your humor where you can get it.
    Last edited by LurkerInPlayground; 2008-09-28 at 02:56 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #188
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    kreszantas's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    alright then do a search on the Stile Project and read up some :warning: material may not be suitable to all age groups!
    Avatar: Red Dwagon decapitating a Cloth Golem, wonderfully drawn by Erfworld Artist Jamie Naguchi, oh yea and Rob Balder

  9. - Top - End - #189

    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    I fail to see your point. . .

  10. - Top - End - #190
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    kreszantas's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by LurkerInPlayground View Post
    I fail to see your point. . .
    I am not going to sit here and tell you what to think. Due to the sensitive subject matter and the rules regarding these boards you will have to take your OWN FREE WILL and make a decision.

    This I will say. Take the contents of the wiki article about the Stile Project and apply it to Parson, you will get a clearer picture that he is a counter-culture, world shaking, uncaring towards certain subject matters individual, and it describes Parson's life to a tee.
    Avatar: Red Dwagon decapitating a Cloth Golem, wonderfully drawn by Erfworld Artist Jamie Naguchi, oh yea and Rob Balder

  11. - Top - End - #191
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2005

    Default Re: 124, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by HamsterOfTheGod View Post
    I listed examples of the genre not necessarily examples of good writing.

    Sorry then, my bad.
    edit: But hmm... I guess his failure to conform to the ethics within that world and still being lavished with praise would be the failure of the book to utilize genre to truly address the problem. It's just unrealistic of him to stay an unbeliever.

    Well, it still brings up a lot of conflict on what's real. I guess I shouldn't completely disregard it just because I hate it, that's not fair.

    Parson seems to have the same issue, but I think he's leaning towards belief, and his actions are all in line with that thinking, but then the magic forces him to do so, to be so.
    Last edited by Moechi_Vill; 2008-09-28 at 04:35 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #192
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    Mar 2008

    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    To Tamlin,

    So... youre saying that the comic is basically spiralling into selfindulent flip-flopping amongst genres. Not only that.. but youre accusing the creators of repeatadly making the mistake. Looking closely at your complaints they seem less like constructive criticism and more like 'your story isnt written the way id do it, so since i dont understand it youre obviously an inferior storyteller'.

    This whole comic seems to be painting a picture of 'stuff isnt just black and white' which is what makes revelations about Wanda and Ansom's private (or not so private when its a meltdown in a command meeting) thoughts/lives so appropriate in terms of character development.

    I took the final panel as another reminder about the ridiculousness of Erfworld. Parson may well be desensitized to the violence because he isnt experiancing it in person... but even he will have considered the absurdity of a world where people with feelings can get croaked whilst bad words are filtered out, for me the panel does a good job of bringing that point home again.
    GENERATION 19: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig and add 1 to the generation. This is a social experiment.

    ''Never argue with idiots, they'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.''

    ''Common sense is very uncommon.''

    ''It ain't sin if you crack a few laws now and then, just so long as you don't break any.''

  13. - Top - End - #193
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2005

    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by TamLin View Post
    Well, I wasn't really talking about the artistic style so much as the changing tone of the comic. Early on the deaths were gags, and often those being killed were strange, funny, or absurd figures such as giant teddy bears, living peeps, or pink dragons. Gradually that tone has shifted to more graphic depictions of violence against more realistic characters. Speaking just for myself, I find this trend to be manipulative, lulling the reader into thinking that they're reading one thing and then suddenly dropping something altogether different (and unpleasant) into their lap.
    I might be an exception, but I had plenty of sympathy for the earlier frags.

    I'm enjoying it more now because I want to see them die, in particular mostly but also general.

    Also, genre is overrated. Most exceptional stories will be mixtures and something new.

    PS. Your first person plural is confusing people. This is why there was an attack on your words earlier after your first two posts. This being a comic forum, it of course, is full of fans who find little wrong with their object of adoration.
    I was horrified to find how many people in the OoTS forum thought it was the best webcomic - ever (I personally find it fair at best), after I ran a poll.
    Maybe a subsection of the fanbase agrees with you, but you're the only one I've seen posting here.
    Its generally safer to use singular until proven otherwise, but there probably are a small number of readers who agree with you.


    Personally I find everything in good context. Generals and warriors make crude and/or simple jokes after massacring tons of people. War is often neither treated in a moral and respectful way or even seriously.

    Why should litterature have to care, unless its in the realist stream or of its derivative culture so entrnched into this world by the forces of good which focuses on improving the world, through writing in the case of litterature.
    Last edited by Moechi_Vill; 2008-09-28 at 05:18 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #194
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Brother Oni's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Cippa's River Meadow
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptC View Post
    (BTW: The ultimate ending of a wargame is not death. The pieces just get put back on the board for another game. What a horrible ending that would be to a narrative comic, though.)
    Actually I'd find it fairly horrific.

    After all the suffering, pain and death they just went through, the game is reset just for them to go through it all again.

    Until the players get bored and put the game away, making all the pieces' efforts for nothing.

  15. - Top - End - #195
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2005

    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    And last and most of all... don't forget the sword TamLin. That's why he is unimpressed by the slaughter Sizemore has gone through and able to stay in a more neutral mood that allows for triggered (hosed working as a word) joviality.

  16. - Top - End - #196
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2008

    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by MattR View Post
    To Tamlin,

    So... youre saying that the comic is basically spiralling into selfindulent flip-flopping amongst genres. Not only that.. but youre accusing the creators of repeatadly making the mistake. Looking closely at your complaints they seem less like constructive criticism and more like 'your story isnt written the way id do it, so since i dont understand it youre obviously an inferior storyteller'.
    I never said that Mr. Baldwin and Mr. Noguchi are "inferior storytellers", just that the story they're telling right now is all over the map. That doesn't neccesarily reflect on their skills in general, lots of great writers and artists have turned out flawed works at one point or another. And I believe if you look back you'll see that I've complimented their work at many points as well.

    And tell me, how exactly does one criticize anything without essentially saying "This isn't the way I'd do it"? When has anyone ever critiqued anything by saying "This was bad, but I'd do the exact same thing"?

    Quote Originally Posted by MattR
    This whole comic seems to be painting a picture of 'stuff isnt just black and white' which is what makes revelations about Wanda and Ansom's private (or not so private when its a meltdown in a command meeting) thoughts/lives so appropriate in terms of character development.
    Well, what do you mean by "stuff"? A lot of the characters are clearly black and white: Wanda is pretty clearly evil, while Sizemore is by almost any definition good. Some of the other characters are a bit more complex, but although Ansom may seem like more or less of a jerk depending on who you ask, there doesn't seem to be much of an argument for calling him evil either ("misguided" or "arrogant" may be the strongest criticism you can level against him). So things aren't really that ambiguous at all, from where I sit at least. The ambiguity comes in that the teams are mixed up and the "Bad team" has a few good people in it. Really, take away Sizemore and Parson and is there anything about Gobwin Knob that doesn's scream "Evil Doodz"?

    Quote Originally Posted by MattR
    I took the final panel as another reminder about the ridiculousness of Erfworld. Parson may well be desensitized to the violence because he isnt experiancing it in person... but even he will have considered the absurdity of a world where people with feelings can get croaked whilst bad words are filtered out, for me the panel does a good job of bringing that point home again.
    But the rest of the comic wasn't about the ridiculousness of the world; rather, it was about how gravely serious the world actually is. This is what accounts for the clash of tones that I've criticized. However, your comment about the irony of censorship next to real violence is the best explanation of the thematic reasoning behind the strip that I've heard so far. But again, if this is all supposed to be ironic or satirical, then the subject should be much more pronounced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moechi_Vill
    I might be an exception, but I had plenty of sympathy for the earlier frags.

    I'm enjoying it more now because I want to see them die, in particular mostly but also general.
    Not really sure what to make of that, but to each their own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moechi_Vill
    Also, genre is overrated. Most exceptional stories will be mixtures and something new.
    But the audience should have some idea of what they're getting. You don't get to the third act of "King Lear" and expect to see a pie fight, and nobody goes into the final reel of "Young Frankenstein" expecting to see Scorsese-style mob violence. But any given page of Erfworld is a coin toss. Hell, not just page, but individual panel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moechi_Vill
    Your first person plural is confusing people. This is why there was an attack on your words earlier after your first two posts. This being a comic forum, it of course, is full of fans who find little wrong with their object of adoration.
    Well, unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself. Although I suppose I also speak for any number of hypothetical people who agree with me on every point but who may or may not actually exist. And unicorns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moechi_Vill
    Maybe a subsection of the fanbase agrees with you, but you're the only one I've seen posting here.
    I would guess that most people who agree with me (if there are any) probably don't read the comic anymore and almost certainly don't want to discuss it. However, I feel that being a minority makes it all the more important to speak up. Like I said, no one is well served by hearing only one side of an issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moechi_Vill
    Personally I find everything in good context. Generals and warriors make crude and/or simple jokes after massacring tons of people. War is often neither treated in a moral and respectful way or even seriously.
    So is Erfworld meant to be a realistic depiction of warfare and violence? If so, why wasn't that apparent earlier? This is a comic where a vampire karate-kicked a dragon to death, I find it a little hard to abruptly change gears from that into a hard-bitten Robert-Duvall-in-Apocalypse-Now vibe (okay, so it's not that abrupt, those comics were months apart, but you get my meaning).
    Last edited by TamLin; 2008-09-28 at 05:54 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #197
    Magnificent Boop in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by TamLin View Post
    I never said that Mr. Baldwin [sic] and Mr. Noguchi are "inferior storytellers", just that the story they're telling right now is all over the map. That doesn't neccesarily reflect on their skills in general, lots of great writers and artists have turned out flawed works at one point or another. And I believe if you look back you'll see that I've complimented their work at many points as well.
    (Er, it's "Balder")

    I don't think see the story as being "all over the map" so much as it is setting up a deliberate counterpoint between cutesy trappings and grim events. Probably the most straightforward indication of the impression the writers are trying to create is in Parson's Klog 8:

    Quote Originally Posted by Parson
    ...everything is cute. Like it's been made safe for children. The people even look like children.

    But then they die. What is that?
    (Underline added because quotes are italic already.)

    Some of the other characters are a bit more complex, but although Ansom may seem like more or less of a jerk depending on who you ask, there doesn't seem to be much of an argument for calling him evil either ("misguided" or "arrogant" may be the strongest criticism you can level against him).
    Actually, the argument for considering him evil (i.e. he wants to wipe out Stanley not so much for the legitimate reason of ending Stanley's aggressions as for the illegitimate reason as ending an affront to his personal worldview) has been made on this forum. I don't really agree with it, but I can't outright dismiss it either.

    So things aren't really that ambiguous at all, from where I sit at least. The ambiguity comes in that the teams are mixed up and the "Bad team" has a few good people in it. Really, take away Sizemore and Parson and is there anything about Gobwin Knob that doesn's scream "Evil Doodz"?
    Well, Bogroll is very much like Sizemore in that he's a basically good-hearted individual (Sizemore says as much) who happens to be on the color-coded "Evil" side.

    Also, you're talking about two of the five significant characters on that side (three, if we add Bogroll). When an argument requires you to separate out that much of the total evidence and call it a special case to be disregarded, the argument is distressingly weak.

    But the rest of the comic wasn't about the ridiculousness of the world; rather, it was about how gravely serious the world actually is. This is what accounts for the clash of tones that I've criticized. However, your comment about the irony of censorship next to real violence is the best explanation of the thematic reasoning behind the strip that I've heard so far. But again, if this is all supposed to be ironic or satirical, then the subject should be much more pronounced.
    Whether or not it's sufficiently pronounced to come across as intended to a particular reader is too subjective to argue, so I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point.
    Last edited by SteveMB; 2008-09-28 at 08:42 AM. Reason: tupo

  18. - Top - End - #198
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    kreszantas's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Great points SteveMB, and I would like to add that the first paragraph in Klog(blog)#2 states that even Parson dislikes this cutesy-boop names and expect a full on rant, but he didnt have time for it. If that is not foreshadowing to a darker story is not forthcoming then for all of the literary knowledge anyone possesses would not prepare you properly for the emotional responses as the story shifts to a more omnious tone then all I can say is... a Obi Wan Kenobi Trope... "The Truth is all dependant on your point of view" and "each side of a coin has it's own face never seeing the other"
    Avatar: Red Dwagon decapitating a Cloth Golem, wonderfully drawn by Erfworld Artist Jamie Naguchi, oh yea and Rob Balder

  19. - Top - End - #199
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Vreejack's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    DC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by kynalvarus View Post
    Key factor 3: On 119, Wanda suddenly knows the Foolamancer's name right after Jillian says it. I suspect Wanda has some form of spell on Jillian left, perhaps a tracer or spy spell.
    Wanda always knew Jack's name. She's from Faq, Jack. Parson had simply not gotten around to asking Wanda about it, yet. He didn't really have any reason to suspect that Wanda knew it, especially if Maggie the Thinkamancer---who had been working with Jack closely for a long time---did not know it. Also, she had been catatonic for a while and was still difficult to talk to. Rob and Jamie waited until that particular frame for plot reasons, not (necessarily) because Wanda was still connected to Jillian mentally.


    Quote Originally Posted by kynalvarus View Post
    ...Get inside Ansom's OODA loop, then get in his head, mess with his emotions, convince his allies that he's outclassed, then show him Webinar + Dora leading the Uncroaked troops on the walls... and he just may snap and try to salvage his reputation, prove his royal superiority, by doing something foolishly heroic like rushing the walls. He's prone to it, and he no longer has Vinnie as his voice of reason to keep him centered.
    That and everything else I find plausible. No doubt a lot of it will occur.

  20. - Top - End - #200
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2008

    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    I hope the Heavy Metal Golem made it through mostly intact.

  21. - Top - End - #201
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Vreejack's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    DC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by TamLin View Post
    A lot of the characters are clearly black and white: Wanda is pretty clearly evil...
    She is? I never thought so. She animates corpses. So? They are resources that will disappear at turn's start. In our world everything is made out of dead corpses. We eat corpses; cows are just specialized units with limited sentience. Everything is recycled through microbes and fungi. In Wanda's world she recycles corpses directly.

    Wanda enslaved Jillian? Sure, and she went too far, but she didn't know that until Jillian told her, and take note that Jillian did not think the offense a particularly egregious sin, merely a mistake, an error that might not be repeated.

    The only thing that shocked Jillian was that Wanda served Stanley willingly. That, I admit, seems curious, especially considering her enthusiasm for the task, but all we can assume is that Wanda has a real, albeit unknown, reason for doing so. If anything you cannot call her "disloyal." She killed a couple of unipagaturs, a mercenary archon and a handful of orlys at GK, but her purpose seems to have been to serve and protect the same master who rejected her and ordered the croaking of her lover. I don't understand what is going through Wanda's head---she's the most enigmatic character in the story---but she is far too complex to be "evil." That sort sort of two-dimensional label rarely works outside of fairy tales.

    A better measure of evil would be 1) How much suffering does she cause, and 2) how much suffering does she try to alleviate? Her status as a torturer/interrogator suggests "evil," but we have only seen her with Jillian. For all we know Jillian is the only one she has ever interrogated. Repeatedly. Given that Stanley always had a lookamancer, regular troops were never worth questioning, just warlords. Does Wanda torture people who do not wish to be tortured? Possibly, but her relationship with Jillian suggests otherwise: Wanda never crossed that line with her but only went as far as Jillian was willing to go.

  22. - Top - End - #202
    Magnificent Boop in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by Vreejack View Post
    Her status as a torturer/interrogator suggests "evil," but we have only seen her with Jillian. For all we know Jillian is the only one she has ever interrogated.
    While I agree that there's more to Wanda than is apparent on the surface, this stikes me as a bit of a reach. Stanley describes torture and interrogation as Wanda's "hobbies", and says that she has a talent for it, remember.

  23. - Top - End - #203
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2008

    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by Cinqueda View Post
    I hope the Heavy Metal Golem made it through mostly intact.
    After all this bullboop (Hrm... what's the Erfworld analog to a bull?) about morality, ethics, schadenfreude, and other such meaningless garbage, it's nice to know that somebody's got his priorities straight.

    If/when the inevitable confrontation between Stanley and Parson happens about the correct use of human resources, Parson can point to Sizemore's army of golems (that's what I'd order him to do, day in, day out- make the most powerful golems he can until his power runs out, every day) and remind him that heavy metal is harder than KISS...

  24. - Top - End - #204
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    kreszantas's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenitor View Post
    After all this bullboop (Hrm... what's the Erfworld analog to a bull?) about morality, ethics, schadenfreude, and other such meaningless garbage, it's nice to know that somebody's got his priorities straight.
    Hey I totally agree with you Eugenitor, but sometimes you can only let the pot boil over so many times before you actually have to do something about it. The best part about Erfworld is there a little bit of everything for everyone. You can have it as simple or as complex as you want to, it is all up to us the reader to make that choice!
    Avatar: Red Dwagon decapitating a Cloth Golem, wonderfully drawn by Erfworld Artist Jamie Naguchi, oh yea and Rob Balder

  25. - Top - End - #205
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Meraya, Siraaj

    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by Vreejack View Post
    Wanda enslaved Jillian? Sure, and she went too far, but she didn't know that until Jillian told her, and take note that Jillian did not think the offense a particularly egregious sin, merely a mistake, an error that might not be repeated.
    Now as much as I like Wanda's character and as much as she is enigmatic in her motives, I have to disagree here because her mind controlling of Jillian is clearly an evil act within the context of their Dom/sub relationship. If one knows anything about D/s subculture it's that the sub is always in control, or at least always should be in control otherwise it's assault/rape; the Dom can only do what the sub wants, and pretty clearly Jillian didn't want to be mind controlled.

    Wanda of course knew that when she asked what Jillian wanted, "easy way or hard way", but when Jillian responds that they run away together and leave the war behind, well Wanda just couldn't have that so she brought out the mind control. Now there's some definite moral ambiguity here because Wanda's betrayal of the nature of their relationship was apparently for a reason very important to her--whatever it is that keeps her loyal to Stanley, it's enough that she was willing to go on a suicidal mission to save him from the ambush. Even so, despite whatever reasons she has for using Jillian against her will, even if it's somehow justified within the context of war, it's still abusive and wrong on a personal level.


    I guess it is kind of messed up to have something as serious as that going on within a "cutesy-boop" comic satirizing games/gamers/internet culture, etc. But eh, D/s is subversive in itself so I see it as part of an overall subversion of expectations that's going on in Erworld, which in this thread has been called separately a tragedy and a farce.

    I think it's both of those things--externally/beyond the fourth wall it's a satire, with lots of in-jokes and silly representations of things the intended audience would know, but internally it's a serious story with subject such as war, pride and loss. TamLin's argument is understandable, it is rather jarring to have these things placed literally side by side, which could be confusing and even revolting to some.

    I personally think it's effective though, since it's exactly what these games ask those of us who play them to do, with Parson taking the immersiveness of them to its extreme conclusion (which incidentally is I think the foreshadowing kreszantas was alluding to).

  26. - Top - End - #206
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SilverClawShift's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by TamLin View Post
    Yes, it's daring, and yes, in real life there are no clearcut good guys and bad guys and few legitimately happy endings and only simpletons expect that kind of thing anymore, etc etc, but that doesn't make reading Erfworld anymore enjoyable.
    Guess what?

    Don't read it.

  27. - Top - End - #207
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Oracle_Hunter's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by kreszantas View Post
    I am not going to sit here and tell you what to think. Due to the sensitive subject matter and the rules regarding these boards you will have to take your OWN FREE WILL and make a decision.

    This I will say. Take the contents of the wiki article about the Stile Project and apply it to Parson, you will get a clearer picture that he is a counter-culture, world shaking, uncaring towards certain subject matters individual, and it describes Parson's life to a tee.
    A shock jockey? Parson? This page? Foreshadowing?

    Heck, Parson hates that life and has no impact on anyone else. How in the world are the two of them related, aside from both being disaffected youths?

    Here's your hat, sir. Watch out for the trees - they're having seizures.
    Lead Designer for Oracle Hunter Games
    Today a Blog, Tomorrow a Business!


    ~ Awesome Avatar by the phantastic Phase ~
    Spoiler
    Show

    Elflad

  28. - Top - End - #208
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2007

    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter View Post
    Heck, Parson hates that life and has no impact on anyone else. How in the world are the two of them related, aside from both being disaffected youths?
    Hey, I noticed that in Parson's favourites he has a link for "Girls Gone Feral?" Is he secretly a furry or something?

  29. - Top - End - #209
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Oracle_Hunter's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by Face Of Evil View Post
    Hey, I noticed that in Parson's favourites he has a link for "Girls Gone Feral?" Is he secretly a furry or something?
    Well... Erfworld doesn't seem to have any Cat Girls so I guess we'll never know
    Lead Designer for Oracle Hunter Games
    Today a Blog, Tomorrow a Business!


    ~ Awesome Avatar by the phantastic Phase ~
    Spoiler
    Show

    Elflad

  30. - Top - End - #210
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2007

    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Sizemore: Well, Parson, you learned an important lesson today: the only way to kill an Uncroaked is to destroy the brain.

    Parson: I also learned that I'm secretly a furry!

    Wanda: Too much information, Parson.
    Last edited by FoE; 2008-09-28 at 11:56 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •