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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenitor View Post
    Apparently it requires intelligence to cast, but not to lead... :D
    HA! Good one.

    War takes a lot of casualties mentally as well as physically. Poor Sizemore is going to be mental after this battle. It's a nice contrast when put side-by-side with Parson who's up there giggling about being able to say "Hosed". Kinda makes me think about the difference between soldiers on the front line and leaders back in the safety of their encampments...
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  2. - Top - End - #242
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    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Has anyone noted the parallel between Sizemore's situation and Vietnam? We met him on a Flower Power retreat, and now he's just finished up a hit-and-run, ambush oriented string of combat. He killed, which he really didn't want to do. I know, comparing things to Vietnam is a little blase', but it seems fairly blatant to me now, in hindsight.

  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by TamLin View Post
    It's not the discomfort that bothers me, it's the lack of clarity in what the comic is trying to do. It feels like the authors are trying to set us up by presenting amusing, farcical, and lighthearted fare one minute and then sucker-punching us the next. And, as noted, the big problem with that is that it's not clear why, what their intent is, what the message (if any) is supposed to be etc.
    Well, personally, I don't like overt "messages" or "points" in my entertainment. You may be different, of course. That I enjoy Erf is enough for me. Oh certainly I like analyzing plots, allusions, etc. like as much as the next geek or English major but if I don't enjoy a work, then I don't want to delve any further into it. That reaction, whether you like a work or not, is visceral. There is no need to overanalyze it. For example, I like the manipulation that the authors are doing. All authors do that to some extent but I think it's heightened in the comic because it is a serial format and the authors and the audience have this immediate and extended commentary on the comic.
    Last edited by HamsterOfTheGod; 2008-09-29 at 09:34 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by TamLin View Post
    This page is important because the violence is actually quite graphic but you'll notice that it's still being played for laughs; the bubblegum-breathing dragon and the sight gag with the impaled elf show that even a page with no punchline and fairly grim material is still slanted firmly toward comedy. The cartoonish nature of the violence takes the edge off of it. This page is pretty much the anti-page 112; absurd and cartoonish violence with no punchline.
    Hey Tamlin. I enjoyed reading your take on the comic. I disagree with your position that the comic is too dark or shocking, but this is just personal taste. However, I think you might be incorrect in suggesting that the comic has recently become dark and shocking. The strip you're talking about drips with weirdness and ambiguity in the last frame, as it pauses over the cutesy-animal wreckage. I sure don't begrudge you not liking your fiction dry and freaky, but these juxtapositions have existed in the strip perhaps longer than you've noticed.

  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    I think that Parsons cheerfulness about being able to say a swearword without being censored is a bit out of place on the "dark" page. Then again, it reminds me that it's just a game world after all, no need to read too much into it.

    Huh, I'm glad it's Webinar not Sizemore that bit it. With given orders it had to be the one or the other. Jetstone lost one very important ally, the marbit forces and alot (all?) of its own leaders. Now the coalition might break apart at some point.
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  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    TamLin ~

    First off, thank you for your posts. I may not agree with you, but you bring up valid points of discussion and obviously put some thought into it. The fact that so many people feel the need to respond to you shows that you have indeed struck a nerve.

    I still disagree with you.

    What I see you having a problem with are the very things that make me enjoy the comic. I came to it late, I was looking to catch up on OotS and start playing play-by-post games here in the forums. If Erfworld stayed how it started (funny, yes; insightful, yes; but lacking a certain je ne sais quoi to distinguish it from all the other funny and insightful webcomics out there), I would not have become such an avid reader.

    I do not see the rapid mood shifts you have commented on as being random. Quite the opposite. Looking back on the comic as a whole, we are led quite effectively to believe that Erfworld is cutesy and fun. Sure, there's war, but it's fairly distant and the skirmishes & deaths we see are relatively cutesy and safe. I see more gore when I step on a spider than I do when I see a marbit split a spidew's head down the middle. There are no moral statements, no tugging at heartstrings. Even the visuals during Ansom's plan are 'clean', despite the fact that they are showing massive combat.

    It's the typical western view of war, what we see in so many works of fantasy, particularly the works of fantasy that are entertainment and politician's speeches (and that's as political as I'm going to get, I advise that you do the same, lest political differences interfere with your actual points).

    Then we get the reality of war. There is torture, there is death, there is gore. Suddenly nothing is comfortable, nothing is safe. Everything that was obvious is suddenly questionable. The 'bad guys' are the 'good guys', everyone does horrible despicable things, but it's hard to label anyone as 'evil' if we examine their motivations (those that we can). There is no black and white, and all of the greys blend together into one homogenized blur.

    We alternately condemn the characters for their actions yet forgive them because of the circumstances they are in. We cycle through pity and disgust and, perhaps, wonder whether we would or even could do anything differently. We see the juxtaposition of Sizemore's moral agony with Parson's lighthearted joy. Harsh? Absolutely. Upsetting? Without a doubt. Why?

    Because we have all been there. Not in a real situation of course (though some of us may have), but cumulatively thousands if not millions or more times in games, watching movies, reading books, etc. We have all cheered for the victor of a violent confrontation that we can keep a safe distance from, but having it presented to us as a reaction to the utter moral despair that Sizemore is feeling makes us a bit queasy. We recognize ourselves in Parson, but experience cognitive dissonance because we don't want to think of ourselves as the sort of people who would be that dismissively lighthearted about what Sizemore is going through.

    To keep a long story short (too late), I conclude that the Misters Balder and Noguchi know precisely what they are doing. They haven't told us, but to perfectly honest I don't have a problem with that. I do not read Erfworld for mere entertainment, I read it because unlike most entertainment, it is art in the truest sense. It stirs emotions and makes us think. If I knew what was coming, if Erfworld merely conformed to the genre conventions, it would not be art, it would be nothing but entertainment (not that there is anything wrong with pure entertainment per se).

    As a note on my post:
    Yes, I used plurals quite a bit. No, I am not presuming to speak for anyone else as individuals. I just firmly believe that I am speaking accurately about more people than will admit it. Each of you as individuals may agree or not as you see fit. Regardless, I stand by my words.
    Last edited by fendrin; 2008-09-29 at 10:21 AM.

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    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post
    Then we get the reality of war. There is torture, there is death, there is gore. Suddenly nothing is comfortable, nothing is safe. Everything that was obvious is suddenly questionable. The 'bad guys' are the 'good guys', everyone does horrible despicable things, but it's hard to label anyone as 'evil' if we examine their motivations (those that we can). There is no black and white, and all of the greys blend together into one homogenized blur.
    Heer, I would say Stanley is black. Like someone else said, when people start to line up to try to kill you, then you've done something very wrong. He didn't only want to conquer all the tools, he attacked almost everybody else to try to get them. Whitout even flinching when his last warlord was slaughtered. When danger reared his ugly head he turned his tail and fled. Killing one of his mancers on the way.

    Wanda is also black. She's the only one we've seen doing torture so far. And she likes it.

    Ansom, on the other hand, is ready to charge into the middle of a dwagon army to save his fellows, does things carefully, tries to minimze losses, and gets pissed off when his troops are needlessly slaughtered. Ok, he's arrogant, but he has reasons to be arrogant.

    He may be gray, but definetely much whiter than Stanley the tool.

  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    To Oslecamo

    Quote ''Heer, I would say Stanley is black. Like someone else said, when people start to line up to try to kill you, then you've done something very wrong.''

    OR you have something they want... or stand for something they disagree with and in the case of this world... youre simply an enemy side and exist to be attacked and defeated or vice versa eventually as part of the natural order.

    Quote ''Wanda is also black. She's the only one we've seen doing torture so far. And she likes it. ''

    Its easy to go a step further and say that the only person we've seen her torturing was Jillian.. and thats all tied up in a very complicated relationship which certainly can't be resolved as just common torture.

    So far we've seen her torture no-one else. The coalition have only commented on Jillian's repeated capture and there's been no mention of other highranking leaders being captured. Since Stanley has lost most if not all engagements so far i'm not sure where people are assuming Wanda gets her torturing candidates from.
    Last edited by MattR; 2008-09-29 at 10:51 AM.
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  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Wanda is also black. She's the only one we've seen doing torture so far. And she likes it.
    We've seen her doing torture on Jillian, someone who likes that kind of stuff. (By the way this black and white thing should be avoided).

    How would you classify Jillian? Jillian enjoys to fight and kill things, and does it for money, so she probably doesn't even care about right or wrong. Even a fork is something she thinks first as a means to inflict damage.

    I also disagree about Stanley being easily characterized on a evil-good axis. He's uncaring but he doesn't seem particularly interested in the misery of others (and looks perplexed when he learns Jillian hates him) and he is not the evil mastermind planning to destroy Erfworld. He's convinced he was chosen by the Titans to accomplish a certain task and fought others to claim what he thinks is rightfully his (like when he says it's the arkenpliers that are coming to him).
    Last edited by teratorn; 2008-09-29 at 10:57 AM.
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    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post
    There is no black and white, and all of the greys blend together into one homogenized blur.
    I wouldn't go that far -- painting everything the same shade of grey is just as simplistic as painting everything either black or white (though the former often passes itself off as "sophistication").

  11. - Top - End - #251
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    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by Krelon View Post
    I think that Parsons cheerfulness about being able to say a swearword without being censored is a bit out of place on the "dark" page. Then again, it reminds me that it's just a game world after all, no need to read too much into it.
    Strange. Many people seemed to feel this was out of place.

    I just felt it was ironic. Parson is still playing his "game". While "real" marbits, Jetstone warriors and goblins are croaking. If that wasn't enough to set your off irony meter, Webinar and Dora, two characters you know by name, croaked. And Sizemore, Parson's friend, is deeply affected by what happened in the tunnels.

    Ruthelessness indeed.
    Last edited by HamsterOfTheGod; 2008-09-29 at 11:39 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #252
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    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Heer, I would say Stanley is black. Like someone else said, when people start to line up to try to kill you, then you've done something very wrong. He didn't only want to conquer all the tools, he attacked almost everybody else to try to get them. Whitout even flinching when his last warlord was slaughtered. When danger reared his ugly head he turned his tail and fled. Killing one of his mancers on the way.
    Stanley is not evil per se, or at least not by any standard I can think of that is even remotely equitable. He is a fanatic, yes, and fanatics can be dangerous. He has certainly done despicable things.

    Those are not why everyone is after him. Some are after him because he attacked them. However it is important to note that the force behind the coalition, the organizer who gathered numerous weak nations together into a coalition that could actually challenge Stanley, is not in it because of Stanley's attacks. Ansom is in it because Stanley is by his very existence an assault to Ansom's worldview. Ansom deceides to bring death and destruction to GK not because of what Stanley did, but because Stanley is subverting the entire rationale for Ansom's life. This war is as much a result of Ansom's classist bigotry and cognitive dissonance as it is about Stanley's quest for the Arkentools.

    Fanatics are not inherently evil, even when their fanaticism leads them to do despicable things. 'Evil' implies deriving a certain joy from harming others. Someone who kills in self defense is not evil, someone who kills for fun is. We have had no indication that Stanley enjoys harming others, merely that he is willing to do it if it serves his goals. Much like the majority of humanity (from my cynical perspective, anyway).

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Wanda is also black. She's the only one we've seen doing torture so far. And she likes it.
    As others have pointed out, that torture was in the context of something much more complicated. I would even argue that Wanda was not even aware she had gone too far until Jillian told her after the fact. So Wanda is evil for a lack of awareness and judgment? If so than I am more evil than that for knowingly partaking of meat from factory farmed animals, despite my moral repugnance towards such practices. Am I evil? I don't think of myself that way, but if Wanda is evil for her actions, then I must be for mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Ansom, on the other hand, is ready to charge into the middle of a dwagon army to save his fellows, does things carefully, tries to minimze losses, and gets pissed off when his troops are needlessly slaughtered. Ok, he's arrogant, but he has reasons to be arrogant.

    He may be gray, but definetely much whiter than Stanley the tool.
    See above. Ansom is willing to commit genocide (essentially what it means to destroy a side) just to justify his own position. How is that any better than what Stanley has done?

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMB View Post
    I wouldn't go that far -- painting everything the same shade of grey is just as simplistic as painting everything either black or white (though the former often passes itself off as "sophistication").
    Ok, I will admit that I got a little caught up in my visualization. I had in mind a line from the opening of William Gibson's novel Neuromancer in which he compares the grey sky to the static of a television with no input. It's beautifully done imagery of something dreary.

    Anyway, I more meant that the grey tones are so mixed together that it is not particularly easy to tell who is metaphorically darker or lighter than the others around them. There are only a few exceptions I can think of, particularly Sizemore, Bogroll, and to a certain extent, Vinny. Even the late corporate tool, Webinar, had his share of grey, mostly in the form of not questioning the ethics of his or his leader's actions.

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    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMB
    I wouldn't go that far -- painting everything the same shade of grey is just as simplistic as painting everything either black or white (though the former often passes itself off as "sophistication").
    Yeah not everything is black and white. Nor is everything the same shade of gray, if it is gray. I also think their can be shades of black and shades of white. Say someone who never hurts or sacrifices someone else, and someone who is far more self-sacrificing. The second is "whiter" than the first. Same thing for darkness. I also believe a person can be either white mostly or black mostly with a few white spots, or a few dark spots, but still not really grey. Anyway a 1-dimensional morality is pretty simplistic, although better than the whole two-point morality.

    Ansom is probably very near brilliant white just tainted by a few dark threads of prejudice. And he is better than a regular royal as he cares about being "desended from those chosen to lead", not royalty. Vinny is a pure, he is simply a loyal supporter of Ansom, not corrupted by much of anything. That is white and good, but still not the best one can get.
    Webinar was very similar in that he was a loyal Jetstone, his only flaw being a temper. So in that regard a good person.
    Hmm... Parson is trying to keep as much freedom as possible while contining to live. Nothing evil their, but the only compassion he shows is toward friends.
    Stanley is self-centered, but he is losing some of that arrogence. I would say he is pretty much evil.
    Wanda I don't know where she is coming from.
    Sizemore is probably mostly good, and he is loyal enough to his people to do something he hates. He is good, although their are gray spots when it comes to hipocracy.
    Jillian seems to be a hipocritical, but not really evil or good.
    Charlie seems to be an evil self-centered ass. He definitally out-blacks Wanda, and is much worse than Stanley too, I think.
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  14. - Top - End - #254
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    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by kreszantas View Post
    Reading the mag with the large bold DROW on the cover very intently, not sure that is what he is reading but leads you to conclude he studies that alot.
    It's Dragon Magazine #298.



    Lots of interesting things in that issue: There's an article on Death Magic and Necromancers. The issue came with a free "Cave of Pain" Battle Mat. They discuss "powerful weapons", "horrible tortures" "gruesome secrets", and "vile rituals."

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    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by seans23 View Post
    It's Dragon Magazine #298.

    Lots of interesting things in that issue: There's an article on Death Magic and Necromancers. The issue came with a free "Cave of Pain" Battle Mat. They discuss "powerful weapons", "horrible tortures" "gruesome secrets", and "vile rituals."
    I have the sudden urge to dig out my "Book of Vile Darkness".

    Black or Blackish or Dark Grey or Spotty Black or whatever, I still like Wanda the best. She doesn't really strike me as really all super "evil" personaly. Just someone with macabre tastes and a willingness (And sometimes admittedly enjoyment) to do the dirty work no one else wants or dares to do. And it grants her considerable power and influence at that. I think my personal definition is someone who commits evil for the "sake" of evil. Granted, my views on "evil" are likely biased. Villian class characters are always my favorite plot movers. Proactive, always giving the story direction. The heroes have it easy. They just sit around and wait for us to come up with all of those overy complex nefarious schemes for them to blunder through and level off.

    I'm not helping my case. Anyways, "Yay Wanda!"

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    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by lamech View Post
    Stanley is self-centered, but he is losing some of that arrogence. I would say he is pretty much evil.
    Are you saying here that "Self-Centered" == "Evil"? Just asking for a clarification.

    I'd say that, while self-centeredness is certainly found in evil folk, not all self-centered individuals are necessarily evil. It is established that the Tool is arrogant, self-centered, and a poor planner, but none of those things make him evil as such. Jetstone is surely just as "dark" albeit in different ways.

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    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
    You are simply wrong. Ambiguity and disturbing themes are not secret hidden tricks, to be used only by the most sacred and trusted authors in which you have placed your trust; they are basic, core parts of good writing. They are as central as characterization or basic punctuation. Challenging the reader and presenting ambiguity is what writing is all about. Only a very few sorts of writers will not strive for a degree of ambiguity or to challenge the reader to some extent; and those sorts are (generally) authors of things like purely escapist fiction or similar junk-food material.
    You're being much too broad here. There's not much moral ambiguity in "The Divine Comedy", for example; God is good, sinners get punished, and all is right in the world. Dante tries to bring up morally ambiguous arguments throughout the poem and his guides always shut him down, explaining that that kind of thinking just doesn't work in this context. A big part of the reason behind the poem is about getting people to not think about moral ambiguity and instead to accept the clearcut morality of medieval Christianity.

    But even if what you assert is correct, you must admit that there is a right way and a wrong way to do anything, including presenting ambiguity and challenging the reader.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion
    Again, the fact that you do not understand this -- the fact that you think ambiguity in writing is some strange and exotic thing -- means that you should probably expand your reading a little. There are some limited genres (purely escapist genre fiction, say) where ambiguity is a bit more rare; and there are some good books that are straightforward and do not challenge the reader at all; but for the most part, the word for writer who has no ambiguity or challenging material in what they write is a complete hack.
    You're hedging a little personal there friend; you have no idea what my reading list is like. But as mentioned, this isn't an issue of whether what Mr. Balder or Mr. Noguchi is doing is the "correct" or acceptable way to write, it's whether their effort is being successful. Ambiguity may make for good writing, but misdirected, poorly qualified, or not very well thought out ambiguity makes for a disaster. And, might I add, being ambiguous and challenging isn't a free pass to do whatever one pleases in one's art. If you're gonna throw around buckets of blood and decapitated orphans (I'm speaking hypothetically here, of course), you can't justify it just by saying "Oh, well, I'm challenging the reader." There are other standards that you still have to be accountable to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rykka
    Why can't they be writing a story for the sake of a story? What -they- feel like writing? Without it being some sort of sadistic intent to sucker-punch some people's overly sensitive person views on how a story should be. It is written, and therefor it is.
    Because Erfworld seems much more complex than that. There's a lot going on in this little comic, and in fact, you'll find that most books, movies, comics, etc have some kind of underlying theme or idea that the writer is trying to communicate. Even hack directors and artistic tools will wax eloquent about what they were trying to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by MattR
    How can you quote a backer of the iraq invasion with a straight face while questioning the larger purpose of ANYTHING... I mean come on....
    Well, since the subject at hand has nothing to do with contemporary politics, it seemed fair. Besides, it fit the situation. Contrasting cute lil characters with violent warfare is one thing, but the bigger question, the strategy that's being supported by that tactic, is why? There's been a concerted effort here, so there must be a reason. One reason would just be to shock the reader, but that seems a little superficial. I'm saying that Erfworld is smarter than that. But if that's not the answer, what is? Honestly, I don't know, and that's my point, I don't feel like the artists have given us enough to answer that very important question, and now that we're late into the game and getting into really dicey material, that's a big oversight.

    Quote Originally Posted by MattR
    The coalition leaders may have made a temporary alliance.. but i bet none of them consulted the common soldiers. Any army in Erfworld is going to be a draft at best and slavery at worst. Webinar clearly didnt want to go into the tunnels but he went anyway, you can argue whether his choice to follow orders was personal or just ingrained obediance to authority. I'm curious to know how Ansom's side deals with malcontents.. if personalities are assigned randomly how would the royalty there deal with people questioning their right to rule? My guess is theyre given a choice of a short rope or a long walk.
    Well, that's a question that I posed in my last post: In a game, your pieces have no choice. They go where you want them to, including to their deaths. In Erfworld we've seen people forced into situations they don't like through magic (Parson) and through pragmatism (Sizemore) and through a sense of duty (Webinar), but what if one of the "game pieces" wants to buck authority? Is that possible? I contend we've seen evidence to suggest that yes, it is (the gobwins overthrew King Saline), but the question hasn't really been put to the test in the present situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MattR
    Just because there's no page showing Ansom's side torturing people for information... doesn't prove conclusively that its never happened. In the real world torture isnt just restricted to the 'bad guys'.
    But the writer has taken a conscious step not to show us that happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teratorn
    I wonder if Tamlin ever read "Le Rouge et le Noir" by Stendhal (I think the English title should be something like The Red and the Black). My French edition has the comments from a critic of the time, and they are strangely reminiscent of what TamLin is saying.
    Never heard of it, but I'll look it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by HamsterOfTheGod
    Well, personally, I don't like overt "messages" or "points" in my entertainment. You may be different, of course. That I enjoy Erf is enough for me.
    It doesn't have to be overt (in fact it's probably better if it's not), but there should be indicators that it's there. Erfworld is so all over the map that it's hard to even pin down a thesis. Well, except for some very simple ones ("War is bad"), but those aren't really satisfactory and they leave a lot unanswered.

    I'd love to elaborate and to address some people's comments that I haven't thus far, but I'm about to be late for work. Pardon me.
    Last edited by TamLin; 2008-09-29 at 04:02 PM.

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    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post
    As others have pointed out, that torture was in the context of something much more complicated. I would even argue that Wanda was not even aware she had gone too far until Jillian told her after the fact. So Wanda is evil for a lack of awareness and judgment? If so than I am more evil than that for knowingly partaking of meat from factory farmed animals, despite my moral repugnance towards such practices. Am I evil? I don't think of myself that way, but if Wanda is evil for her actions, then I must be for mine.
    Also, note: Jillian never said that what Wanda did there went over the line. She objected to being mind-controlled over an important decision, but that was all.
    Last edited by Aquillion; 2008-09-29 at 04:37 PM.

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    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by xopher.tm View Post
    Are you saying here that "Self-Centered" == "Evil"? Just asking for a clarification.

    I'd say that, while self-centeredness is certainly found in evil folk, not all self-centered individuals are necessarily evil. It is established that the Tool is arrogant, self-centered, and a poor planner, but none of those things make him evil as such. Jetstone is surely just as "dark" albeit in different ways.
    Hmm let me rephrase, the tool is self-centered, selfish, and cares little about others. He is willing to force others to die for him and apperantly attack innocent tribes. "Self-centered" /= evil, always, you are correct. It is also tool's unncaring about who he hurts, and willingness to do so. Those are my opinions on the tool. I shoud have been more complete in my reasoning.
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    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by seans23 View Post
    It's Dragon Magazine #298.

    Lots of interesting things in that issue: There's an article on Death Magic and Necromancers. The issue came with a free "Cave of Pain" Battle Mat. They discuss "powerful weapons", "horrible tortures" "gruesome secrets", and "vile rituals."
    Thank you for pointing that out and actually doing your own research, you have merely validated my point that Parson is not the neatly wrapped christmas package everyone is attempting to make him out to be.

    On to another subject... Using a personal quote: "You believe what you see because it is all that they give you." The Wanda/Jillian sub/dom relationship talk has to end... There is NOT one. When was the last time anyone read Pinocio(sp.)? This is more that style of relationship, we now have valid facts that Wanda/Jillian are from FAQ which means they are Family. Tribe is another way of saying that they are all related in some fashion. They are either sisters/cousins etc whatever it takes to get that sub/dom out of your mind because it does not exist. Those that still cling to it are close to an unhealthy state of mind with regards to this subject.

    Facts against the s/d relationship
    1) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0036.html in the last part of 36 this is almost like a "reunion" style of conversation of separated family members not of a "relationship"
    2) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0039.html the beginning part of Wanda explaining to Jillian she is a royal has no indication of that style of relationship.
    3) Again in 39 Mung declares that Wanda is EVIL not sure if this is a slip up by the Rob / Jami in the Holy/Unholy debate but clearly there is a definition of it. Many see Ghepeto as being EVIL for controlling Pinocio.
    4) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0043.html where Wanda declares that Ansom loves Jillian, merely mentioning she controls her mind (note no body mentioned)
    5) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0045.html the control is subtle is stressed meaning she just liked being told what to do.
    6) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0054.html there is outward signs of sex here with the "removal" of clothes and the telling Stanley to relax.
    7) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0057.html Jillian's backlash to the Archons was merely an indication of her Merc lifestyle and that the sudden fact and the fact of the subtle mind control, coupled with the NOT killing of Webinar make it all the more convincing.
    8) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0060.html and http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0061.html where shows 'the Tool' in a good mood after the relaxing session.
    9) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0074.html validation of Jillian's real love
    10) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0079.html fanservice.
    11) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0091.html showing Wanda in FAQ to confirm they know each other before this conflict began in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0092.html
    12) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0093.html Maggie explaining the backlash
    13) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0104.html the control issue being told what to do much like a puppet master and it's puppet.
    14) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0105.html the "that's crap" statement by Jillian shows that Wanda clearly has a 'free will' to follow Stanley. Same goes for Jillian in sticking with Ansom after the spell broke.

    Hopefully this will add some water to the mud to clear it up some. This will not stop the discussion however with the listed facts as published within the comic itself leaves you nothing but a puppet and its master and the broken strings that formerly bound them together.
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    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote: ''this isn't an issue of whether what Mr. Balder or Mr. Noguchi is doing is the "correct" or acceptable way to write, it's whether their effort is being successful.''

    The direction their work is going in seems to have been consistent to me even if their final destination isnt known for certain, we can all speculate about what the message they have (if any) is.. but until we hear it directly from them its only ever going to be speculation.

    Logically if you have a bunch of happy people and one unhappy person youve got to question whether its the story at fault or a problem with the person who is dissatisfied.
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    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by kreszantas View Post
    Thank you for pointing that out and actually doing your own research, you have merely validated my point that Parson is not the neatly wrapped christmas package everyone is attempting to make him out to be.

    On to another subject... Using a personal quote: "You believe what you see because it is all that they give you." The Wanda/Jillian sub/dom relationship talk has to end... There is NOT one. When was the last time anyone read Pinocio(sp.)? This is more that style of relationship, we now have valid facts that Wanda/Jillian are from FAQ which means they are Family. Tribe is another way of saying that they are all related in some fashion. They are either sisters/cousins etc whatever it takes to get that sub/dom out of your mind because it does not exist. Those that still cling to it are close to an unhealthy state of mind with regards to this subject.

    Facts against the s/d relationship
    1) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0036.html in the last part of 36 this is almost like a "reunion" style of conversation of separated family members not of a "relationship"
    2) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0039.html the beginning part of Wanda explaining to Jillian she is a royal has no indication of that style of relationship.
    3) Again in 39 Mung declares that Wanda is EVIL not sure if this is a slip up by the Rob / Jami in the Holy/Unholy debate but clearly there is a definition of it. Many see Ghepeto as being EVIL for controlling Pinocio.
    4) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0043.html where Wanda declares that Ansom loves Jillian, merely mentioning she controls her mind (note no body mentioned)
    5) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0045.html the control is subtle is stressed meaning she just liked being told what to do.
    6) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0054.html there is outward signs of sex here with the "removal" of clothes and the telling Stanley to relax.
    7) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0057.html Jillian's backlash to the Archons was merely an indication of her Merc lifestyle and that the sudden fact and the fact of the subtle mind control, coupled with the NOT killing of Webinar make it all the more convincing.
    8) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0060.html and http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0061.html where shows 'the Tool' in a good mood after the relaxing session.
    9) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0074.html validation of Jillian's real love
    10) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0079.html fanservice.
    11) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0091.html showing Wanda in FAQ to confirm they know each other before this conflict began in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0092.html
    12) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0093.html Maggie explaining the backlash
    13) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0104.html the control issue being told what to do much like a puppet master and it's puppet.
    14) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0105.html the "that's crap" statement by Jillian shows that Wanda clearly has a 'free will' to follow Stanley. Same goes for Jillian in sticking with Ansom after the spell broke.

    Hopefully this will add some water to the mud to clear it up some. This will not stop the discussion however with the listed facts as published within the comic itself leaves you nothing but a puppet and its master and the broken strings that formerly bound them together.
    None of those are facts youve listed, theyre pages which are open to interpretation. Youve interpreted them one way, other people have another way. It should be noted that a breakdown in relationship between two estranged sisters is less dramatic then that between lovers who come from different social levels.

    Why would the artist mask innocent behaviour? that makes less sense then them masking something which might offend peoples sensibilities whilst still dropping enough clues for people to understand whats happening really.

    Also, its abit unfair to draw any assumptions about Parson's character because of one magazine hes read. Thats as baseless as calling all DnD players satan worshipers because the game has elements of magic and demon summoning. If hes a subscriber to the magazine some days hed get ones that talk about torture and others could be about dwarfish ale brewing. There's no proof he only reads articles like that or that hes fixated on torture.

    EDIT:
    Jillain says Jack had a crush on her and she doesnt find the idea revolting. Using your analogy hed be her brother or cousin too though. In a world where people dont procreate anyway and they dont share a childhood...where would be the harm with pseudo step 'brothers' and 'sisters' bumping uglies?

    With more and more people accepting non-traditional gay relationships the only realistic objections anyone can make against incest are that theres the potential for child abuse within families (hey, that already happens) AND that there's the potential for children between closely related family members to be born with defects. There are plenty of people who carry faulty genetics but they arent disallowed from having children on that basis, which negates that argument though.
    Last edited by MattR; 2008-09-29 at 05:54 PM.
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    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by TamLin View Post
    It doesn't have to be overt (in fact it's probably better if it's not), but there should be indicators that it's there. Erfworld is so all over the map that it's hard to even pin down a thesis. Well, except for some very simple ones ("War is bad"), but those aren't really satisfactory and they leave a lot unanswered.
    I never got that impression, that a thesis of the comic is "War is bad." Certainly, it portrays "War is hell." But so it is in our real world. And just as in our real world, war can be viewed as morally ambiguous. For example, most people would view defensive war as justified though of course then the argument of what constitutes a defensive war can be brought up. In the comic, the ambiguity of war is evident in opposing viewpoints, eg Tool as Worm vs Tool as The Chosen of the Titans, rule by nobility as inherently good vs nobility as inherently bad, war as part of Erfworlder's innate makeup vs war as a conscious choice in Erf, war as rightful duty vs war as a compulsion. These competing theses interact with each readers own viewpoint further complicating the issues.

    It seems to be that Erfworld treats many other themes in the same way, not just war, but also love, gaming, reality and illusion, etc. If anything, the overall theme of Erf is itself, or rather self-reference to itself, how we the readers relate to Erf relating to the real world reflects and is reflected by how we relate to the real world. As such, Erf is meta-fiction. Interesting. I'm reading the late David Foster Wallace's essays in "A Supposedly Fun Thing I'll Never Do Again" (1997) in which he comments on meta-fiction in TV and literature.
    Last edited by HamsterOfTheGod; 2008-09-29 at 05:37 PM.

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    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Sheriff of Moddingham: Please don't bring real world politics or religion into this discussion. Thanks.
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    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by kreszantas View Post
    The Wanda/Jillian sub/dom relationship talk has to end... There is NOT one. When was the last time anyone read Pinocio(sp.)? This is more that style of relationship, we now have valid facts that Wanda/Jillian are from FAQ which means they are Family.
    What the hell? I can't tell if you're joking or not.

    There were some people who denied it before (a long time ago, when it was made less obvious), but this question was settled a very long time ago. Yes, Wanda/Jillian were in a D/s relationship. The strip has said it over, and over, and over again in both subtle and blatant ways, and nearly every single strip you linked to affirms this. You linked to a strip of them erotically kissing on the lips, for crying out loud.

    1) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0036.html in the last part of 36 this is almost like a "reunion" style of conversation of separated family members not of a "relationship"
    What exactly do you think "Tonight you'll be rewarded properly" means? Yes, they're relaxing talking to each other instead of immediately leaping into sex. That is something that couples do sometimes, especially when they haven't seen each other for a while.

    You also kind of skimmed over their first reunion. Yeah, those lips in eight kind of kill the 'family' theory dead.

    2) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0039.html the beginning part of Wanda explaining to Jillian she is a royal has no indication of that style of relationship.
    Likewise, now, after sex, they're relaxed and talking to each other again. Why is this so hard to understand?

    3) Again in 39 Mung declares that Wanda is EVIL not sure if this is a slip up by the Rob / Jami in the Holy/Unholy debate but clearly there is a definition of it. Many see Ghepeto as being EVIL for controlling Pinocio.
    You misunderstood that page. He calls her evil after she mind-controls him into hearing nothing but the screams; before then he (who was established as lascivious earlier for just this scene) was about to ask her about the cries of pleasure. That is why she threw the mind-control dust at him.

    4) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0043.html where Wanda declares that Ansom loves Jillian, merely mentioning she controls her mind (note no body mentioned)
    She has been concealing her relationship with Jillian from others, because it would be awkward in all sorts of ways for them to know she has a sexual relationship with an enemy. Here she tells them the bare minimum of what is necessary.

    5) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0045.html the control is subtle is stressed meaning she just liked being told what to do.
    Second panel, Jillian in bliss in the arms of her mistress. Fourth panel, an erotic kiss on the lips. This reality is deliberately contrasted with Wanda's words, which downplay her relationship with Jillian again, since she'd rather not have it known. (This strip, incidentally, was the one where the argument went decisively from being 'one theory verses another' to 'very obvious sexual relationship, with some epileptic tree theories otherwise', and where the old 'family' theory became incestuous.)

    Notice Wanda's genuine smile in the second panel. This is just about the only genuinely happy smile we have seen from her in the entire strip so far.

    6) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0054.html there is outward signs of sex here with the "removal" of clothes and the telling Stanley to relax.
    Nobody said they had a monogamous relationship. Obviously, Wanda uses sex to control Stanley, despite her extremely evident contempt for him personally; she outright explains to Parson her ways to manipulate him, and says (with a decidedly nasty expression on her face) that what she's going up there to do is to use him like, well, a tool.

    People sometimes have sex with people they don't like, for reasons just like that. I think the authors made it pretty clear what was going on there...

    7) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0057.html Jillian's backlash to the Archons was merely an indication of her Merc lifestyle and that the sudden fact and the fact of the subtle mind control, coupled with the NOT killing of Webinar make it all the more convincing.
    I don't see what this strip has to do with anything.

    8) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0060.html and http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0061.html where shows 'the Tool' in a good mood after the relaxing session.
    Again, not monogamous. Obviously Wanda has no objections to using sex as a tool (that strip makes it quite clear.) But you can't seriously argue that we've been shown she cares for the Tool (she's been as openly contemptuous of him as she can, given her situation); she uses sex to control him. This makes it more likely that she would use sex to control Jillian, too; not less.

    Jillian is conflicted between Wanda and Ansom. This has been made very clear, over and over again. She finally made a decision (at least for then.)

    11) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0091.html showing Wanda in FAQ to confirm they know each other before this conflict began in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0092.html
    And embarrassed, because she's mentioning her other lover to Stanley. She gets embarrassed when he mentions her being rescued, too, for the same reason; she's remembering what actually happened then.

    12) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0093.html Maggie explaining the backlash
    Don't see what this has to do with anything.

    13) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0104.html the control issue being told what to do much like a puppet master and it's puppet.
    "I -- *hem* -- don't like being controlled." They've been in a D/s relationship for a while, so of course that claim would be somewhat embarrassing for Jillian; there isn't really any other explanation for that *hem*.

    14) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0105.html the "that's crap" statement by Jillian shows that Wanda clearly has a 'free will' to follow Stanley. Same goes for Jillian in sticking with Ansom after the spell broke.
    I've gone into extended detail on this elsewhere, but to summarize:

    First, Wanda holds Stanley in contempt, which she expresses as clearly as it's possible to do in her situation. We've seen this all over the place; her facial expressions here, here and in the following page -- basically any time she's in the room with him, she looks irritated and contemptuous (remember, she is literally risking her life by looking this way. But even as good at manipulating people as she is, she can't completely hide what she thinks of him.). Compare this to her genuine happiness when she's alone with Jillian.

    Second, she's manipulating Stanley. She does it quite openly, and gives Parson tips on it. She holds a measure of power in Gobwin Knob by doing this. She views seducing him as a plainly-distasteful task that she is willing to force herself to do in order to attain her goals, nothing more.

    Third, we don't know whether her loyalty check to Stanley succeeded or not (if it failed, she could betray him -- I went into this in more detail elsewhere). But either way it wouldn't matter. If she's subject to natural thinkamancy, she has no choice but to defend Stanley; if she isn't, then she has to defend him because she only remains free as long as he is alive. She looks decidedly unhappy about it either way; but she makes do with what she has, because if he dies, she gets croaked or worse. Likewise, the one thing she absolutely will never do is join Jillian's faction or risk Jillian's faction capturing her, because that would put Jillian in a position of power over her, which she cannot stand.

    Now, you're entitled to your epileptic tree theories, of course; sure, it could all be an elaborate author ruse to make us think they're in one kind of relationship when it's actually another, or that Wanda actually cares for the Tool despite all the evidence to the contrary. But trying to argue that it doesn't obviously look like they're in a sexual relationship, or to argue that Wanda sees Stanley as anything beyond a useful (if repugnant) idiot for her plans, is just being silly. (And I don't feel that the authors would go to that extent to 'trick' us; they don't seem to be too heavy into the whole Shocking Swerve thing.)

    You can't seriously deny that most of the strips you linked to, if read in a straightforward manner and without looking for elaborate author tricks, lead to the impression that they're in a sexual relationship (their lips about to kissing, repeated references to Jillian 'liking it', the whole dungeon thing, beloved, all of that.) You can come up with far-field theories otherwise, sure, but to say 'THIS TALK HAS TO END' is absurd. The strip has been quite straightforward about what it's been showing so far, and you haven't really come up with any reasons why your elaborate explanations otherwise (seriously, "they're from the same country, so they kiss on the lips and call each other beloved?") should be taken above what the strip has out-and-out told us (Jillian is Wanda's beloved, and she likes being dominated.)
    Last edited by Aquillion; 2008-09-30 at 02:09 PM.

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    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by kreszantas View Post
    There is NOT one. When was the last time anyone read Pinocio(sp.)? This is more that style of relationship, we now have valid facts that Wanda/Jillian are from FAQ which means they are Family. Tribe is another way of saying that they are all related in some fashion. They are either sisters/cousins etc whatever
    Huh? The real-world meaning of "related" simply does not apply to Erfworld -- at most, there is a relationship between ruler and popped heir that corresponds to parentage.

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    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
    What the hell? I can't tell if you're joking or not.
    There were some people who denied it before (a long time ago, when it was made less obvious), but this question was settled a very long time ago. Yes, Wanda/Jillian were in a D/s relationship. The strip has said it over, and over, and over again in both subtle and blatant ways, and nearly every single strip you linked to affirms this. You linked to a strip of them erotically kissing on the lips, for crying out loud.
    Humm nope see no contact or sound effect there to confirm that.

    What exactly do you think "Tonight you'll be rewarded properly" means? Yes, they're relaxing talking to each other instead of immediately leaping into sex. That is something that couples do sometimes, especially when they haven't seen each other for a while.
    It can mean anything when shown off screen no confirmation of that fact at all.
    You also kind of skimmed over their first reunion. Yeah, those lips in eight kind of kill the 'family' theory dead.
    Huh?

    Likewise, now, after sex, they're relaxed and talking to each other again. Why is this so hard to understand?

    You misunderstood that page. He calls her evil after she mind-controls him into hearing nothing but the screams; before then he (who was established as lascivious earlier for just this scene) was about to ask her about the cries of pleasure. That is why she threw the mind-control dust at him.
    Wrong the dust is again used to make certain that Mung was not going to squeel ANYTHING about the session including Wanda showing mercy (which she didnt by beating her up)
    She has been concealing her relationship with Jillian from others, because it would be awkward in all sorts of ways for them to know she has a sexual relationship with an enemy. Here she tells them the bare minimum of what is necessary.

    Second panel, Jillian in bliss in the arms of her mistress. Fourth panel, an erotic kiss on the lips. This reality is deliberately contrasted with Wanda's words, which downplay her relationship with Jillian again, since she'd rather not have it known. (This strip, incidentally, was the one where the argument went decisively from being 'one theory verses another' to 'very obvious sexual relationship, with some epileptic tree theories otherwise', and where the old 'family' theory became incestuous.)
    Bliss also can be for ease of transport on a riding dwagon with an ENEMY UNIT into the field
    Notice Wanda's genuine smile in the second panel. This is just about the only genuinely happy smile we have seen from her in the entire strip so far.

    Nobody said they had a monogamous relationship. Obviously, Wanda uses sex to control Stanley, despite her extremely evident contempt for him personally; she outright explains to Parson her ways to manipulate him, and says (with a decidedly nasty expression on her face) that what she's going up there to do is to use him like, well, a tool.
    That smile also can be that I have fooled those buffoons Stanley and Parson, I have my mole planted and Ansom's entire warplan. Yes everyone agrees with Wanda manipulating Stanley.
    People sometimes have sex with people they don't like, for reasons just like that. I think the authors made it pretty clear what was going on there...
    I don't see what this strip has to do with anything.
    Go back to my quote your only seeing what you want to. Again there is no physical contact (sound effect etc.) to prove your point, clothing is all on as a caster you can manipulate the spell by being in close proximity for optimal effect of said spell. Wanda went into "some" detail on how it works, Sizemore gave more but Maggie finished that agruement.
    Again, not monogamous. Obviously Wanda has no objections to using sex as a tool (that strip makes it quite clear.) But you can't seriously argue that we've been shown she cares for the Tool (she's been as openly contemptuous of him as she can, given her situation); she uses sex to control him. This makes it more likely that she would use sex to control Jillian, too; not less.

    Jillian is conflicted between Wanda and Ansom. This has been made very clear, over and over again. She finally made a decision (at least for then.)

    And embarrassed, because she's mentioning her other lover to Stanley. She gets embarrassed when he mentions her being rescued, too, for the same reason; she's remembering what actually happened then.

    Don't see what this has to do with anything.

    "I -- *hem* -- don't like being controlled." They've been in a D/s relationship for a while, so of course that claim would be somewhat embarrassing for Jillian; there isn't really any other explanation for that *hem*.
    trying to find correct words to say? is that soooo hard?

    [qupte]14) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0105.html the "that's crap" statement by Jillian shows that Wanda clearly has a 'free will' to follow Stanley. Same goes for Jillian in sticking with Ansom after the spell broke.[/quote]I've gone into extended detail on this elsewhere, but to summarize:
    First, Wanda holds Stanley in contempt, which she expresses as clearly as it's possible to do in her situation. We've seen this all over the place; her facial expressions here, here and in the following page -- basically any time she's in the room with him, she looks irritated and contemptuous (remember, she is literally risking her life by looking this way. But even as good at manipulating people as she is, she can't completely hide what she thinks of him.).
    something we agree on.

    Compare this to her genuine happiness when she's alone with Jillian.

    Second, she's manipulating Stanley. She does it quite openly, and gives Parson tips on it. She holds a measure of power in Gobwin Knob by doing this. She views seducing him as a plainly-distasteful task that she is willing to force herself to do in order to attain her goals, nothing more.

    Third, we don't know whether her loyalty check to Stanley succeeded or not (if it failed, she could betray him -- I went into this in more detail elsewhere). But either way it wouldn't matter. If she's subject to natural thinkamancy, she has no choice but to defend Stanley; if she isn't, then she has to defend him because she only remains free as long as he is alive. She looks decidedly unhappy about it either way; but she makes do with what she has, because if he dies, she gets croaked or worse. Likewise, the one thing she absolutely will never do is join Jillian's faction or risk Jillian's faction capturing her, because that would put Jillian in a position of power over her, which she cannot stand.
    Really crasping for straws are we? Rest is not even worth a reply since you are now directly attacking me as an individual and thus is dismissed.
    Last edited by kreszantas; 2008-09-29 at 11:33 PM.
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    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMB View Post
    Huh? The real-world meaning of "related" simply does not apply to Erfworld -- at most, there is a relationship between ruler and popped heir that corresponds to parentage.
    Used the word family as a way of describing same side familiarity or commonality. Your going to react alot different around the ones you know and are within the same tribe (family) than not.
    Avatar: Red Dwagon decapitating a Cloth Golem, wonderfully drawn by Erfworld Artist Jamie Naguchi, oh yea and Rob Balder

  29. - Top - End - #269

    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    kreszantas>

    It's not an ad hominem when you're told why you are wrong and that the positions that you hold are "absurd." This is called criticism.

    What he is doing is telling you that you are biased in favor of your interpretation and refusing to acknowledge that he has more evidence for his particular assertion than you do. The fact that this evidence might not support his conclusion doesn't change the fact that your interpretation *could* be wrong.

    An idea you apparently won't bother to entertain.

    And even if it were an ad hominem, it's not like he's standing entirely upon the ad hominem to make his point.

    You're the one "crasping at the straws" here. Just admit that you didn't see the clues for what they were and that Aquillion might actually have a point.
    Last edited by LurkerInPlayground; 2008-09-30 at 12:29 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #270
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2008

    Default Re: 124 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 112

    @tamlin
    I certainly hear where you are coming from, but the things you dislike about the comic make it interesting for me. The idea of metafiction (we are reading a comic about a person in a realistic setting, who is inside a (fictional?) game world which constantly refers to our world) creates these odd clashes; it can't fit in one genre or theme or mood because the entire premise is self-contradictory. You don't like how Erf violence seems to have comedic purpose at times, and seems gratuitous at others; I find it interesting how it implicates us as readers and I think we should question our reactions...
    A lot of works, particularly contemporary ones embrace the kind of disconnect you criticize... the term "postmodern pastiche" is bandied about to describe how works blend genres, or parody multiple sources - you aren't the only one who finds this unbearable, I assure you.
    </pretentious English Majorese>

    Final point: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0017.html
    The Tool asked for someone who kills his foes for fun, and he got it. Early in the comic, I read that as just being a joke on the fact that Parson is a gamer... but I think it takes an additional significance here.

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