OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

[Taljen]

A lot of people are saying that "Disintegrate/ Gust of Wind" were the four words. I was wondering if anyone could explain how it's leading towards ultimate power? Not asking in a sarcastic "I don't think so" way, just genuinely curious.

[busterswd]

A lot of people are saying that "Disintegrate/ Gust of Wind" were the four words. I was wondering if anyone could explain how it's leading towards ultimate power? Not asking in a sarcastic "I don't think so" way, just genuinely curious.

-Qarr has to find a new master now; lo and behold there's a powerful mage who's just disposed of the old one who he can throw lots of favors to.

-Murdering a prisoner was the last step V needed to really abandon any notions of good or restraint, and he will now pursue his goal of ultimate power wholeheartedly.

-Finding that V killed Kubota makes Hinjo, Elan, and Durkon turn on him; V defects and again wholeheartedly pursues his goal of power.

-Butterfly effects; Kubota's death sets a whole string of events so unpredictable that V gains ultimate power.

etc. etc.

[wootage]

Only one thing to say about V now...

NOOOOOOOooooooooo.....

[Murphoid]

OOOOH, I'd love a cookie!

[Blue Ghost]

Eep... V? V? Where are you, elf buddy?
This is not looking good...
At this rate, I think that #600 will be something really BAD.

[Yorgelayheehoo]

I agree. Something very bad. And to toss my hat in the V's Alignment Ring, I'll just say that he's CN, with heavy leanings towards evil. There's really not much distance from here to CE.

[Shade]

I don't think things are quite as bad as people are making them out to be. Yes, V's recent acts were far more evil than good. Yes, V is slipping down a physical, emotional, and moral slope, and doesn't look like she's even trying to climb back up.

But I don't think V's going to become a lich. I don't think she'll become a villain, at least not a long-term one. V is one of the good guys, even now--although yes, by those standards I'd say that even Belkar is frequently a good guy. Perhaps protagonist is more apt?

Everyone's predicting V's imminent doom, demise, or betrayal of the OotS and/or Hinjo (except for the few who are still saying V's just misunderstood). I don't disagree that something's going to happen soon, some big character development or change for V, whether in a positive or negative direction. But I don't think it's going to change V's status as a protagonist, at least not for any major length of time.

Dramatic event, I'll agree with. My personal bet is some major act that makes it clear to V that she's way past the line. Maybe she'll finally contact Haley, and find out that the ally V's been working so hard to find is less than supportive of her recent track record. Maybe V will go too far and kill someone who tries to interfere with her work. Whatever happens, it'll definitely be major, and probably evil.

But hold out hope, people. Not that V's really good or misguided or whatever; that's just excuses. But that V can return. The dark side may have cookies, but the cake is a lie.

[Crystalkestrel]

Well, I think it's safe to say that V went completely mental. Alignment issues are moot if the being cannot distinguish right from wrong.

[Crystalkestrel]

Maybe she'll finally contact Haley, and find out that the ally V's been working so hard to find is less than supportive of her recent track record.

Agreed. Haley has always been the one V trusts.

[Skaarg]

My take on the prophecy - it is already in the process of being fulfilled.

Spoiler

Show

I think the four words have already been spoken: "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." V is in the process of grasping all the ramifications of this event and of Elan's reaction to it. V has discovered (really, already knew) that nuisances (even living, sentient ones) are simply something that V can sweep aside with an appropriate application of force. V is also beginning to realize that V's companions are sometimes those very nuisances.

I think V has learned some lessons in the past that are playing into this as well. Haley taught V that a better way to gain knowledge than by study was by killing things. V has always appreciated Haley because of this lesson, and that may be part of what feeds V's obsession to find Haley.

V hasn't yet achieved "Ultimate Arcane Power" because V has yet to fully grasp the ramifications of V's actions against Kabuto and later threats against Elan. Essentially, V is in the process of learning the lessons that Xykon tried to teach Dorukan and Redcloak, namely that "all that matters is the application of force in as great a concentration as possible," and that what is important is "how far you are willing to debase yourself before feeling bad."

I doubt V will gain lichdom, as being a virtually immortal elf, there doesn't seem to be much angle in it for V. However, I think it is pretty likely that V is traveling down the same road as Xykon, except for different reasons. V wants ultimate power for knowledge's sake, while Xykon wanted it for wacky fun. Once they each get it, though, what they'll use it for will be roughly the same - what everybody who seeks power eventually uses it for - damaging others.

And I think #600 will be where we'll first see this start to take shape.

[Skaarg]

A lot of people are saying that "Disintegrate/ Gust of Wind" were the four words. I was wondering if anyone could explain how it's leading towards ultimate power? Not asking in a sarcastic "I don't think so" way, just genuinely curious.

see my spoiler immediately above...

[Hithros]

Ahhhhh! V, what are you doing.........

[brilliantlight]

Not that hard to do, his actions were neutral at best. V is the smartest member of the party, he/she has looked at the bigger picture and knows they could be in a lot of trouble. Stopping Xykon from controlling the gates is a high priority. Reuniting with the other PCs is another high priority - Haley is a friend after all. Gaining arcane power in order to help achieve both of these is another priority. These other events are just annoying distractions to V. Kubota trying to gain control, the devil on the island - these just pull V away from his research. The only recompense is if he gets XP for doing them. In the long term, does it really matter if they died compared to the Snarl getting loose?



Haley is still V's friend. Most of V's research is geared towards locating Haley. V is also somewhat correct in terms of what Elan has been doing - he hasn't really made any significant efforts to locate Haley even though it hurts him to be apart from her. Elan is also a friend, which is why V is angry that he is trying to hinder his efforts to research magic and gain enough power to contact Haley.

What could Elan do to locate Haley? He didn't do anything because he can't realistically do so.

[brilliantlight]

Actually, rogues can be of any alignment.

Yep, I made an LN rouge once. He was a rouge in name only, he was a sherrif that used the rouge skill set to catch criminals.

[Scarlet Knight]

Haley is still V's friend. Most of V's research is geared towards locating Haley. V is also somewhat correct in terms of what Elan has been doing - he hasn't really made any significant efforts to locate Haley even though it hurts him to be apart from her. Elan is also a friend, which is why V is angry that he is trying to hinder his efforts to research magic and gain enough power to contact Haley.

You know, you got me thinking. The way V spoke to Elan was more about cheating on Haley than abandoning the quest. I wonder if V has a thing for Haley, but knows that Haley loves Elan, & thinks Elan is constantly cheating on her with every man and woman he meets. That would explain alot.

[Enigma95]

Hmm, looks like lack of sleep can cause slight alignment adjustment.

[Heroic]

Great strip! He/She seems to be falling to the Dark Side KOTOR style

[Balkash]

Did Elan just call that guy a douchebag?

Sweet

[Warren Dew]

Haley has been confirmed as Chaotic Good if my memory serves.

Haley was "confirmed good" by the same sicken effect that happened to Vaarsuvius in strip 11, for whatever that's worth.

I think there have been more recent confirmations of her being chaotic.

A lot of people are saying that "Disintegrate/ Gust of Wind" were the four words. I was wondering if anyone could explain how it's leading towards ultimate power? Not asking in a sarcastic "I don't think so" way, just genuinely curious.

I don't understand this either, unless they're thinking that Vaarsuvius' willingness to use spells for metagame reasons is ultimate power.

What could Elan do to locate Haley? He didn't do anything because he can't realistically do so.

Not much, but that doesn't necessarily keep people from being upset at him for it. From Vaarsuvius' standpoint, he could perhaps have skipped the side trips on orc island and to the demon island.

[NENAD]

If V had a thing for Haley, V would have a definite gender, which V does not. V is probably good friends with Haley, and probably trusts Haley, whereas V probably doesn't really trust the rest of the Order much at all (especially Belkar). So, yes, V is probably annoyed with Elan for (evidently) going straight for Therkla when Haley is still out there somewhere, but that's anger at Elan's disloyalty to V's friend, not a manifestation of envy. If it were envy, V would want Elan and Therkla all shacked up when they find Haley, so that Haley will be single and emotionaly vulnerable, perfectly ripe for a new relationship. But V doesn't want that.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

V: On what charge? Oh, that's a crime in Azure City, isn't it? Well, this isn't AC is it, so your law doesn't apply. Given that we've been sent here once before on a trumped up charge so that your master could get us to do what he couldn't get you to do...

Presumably Azure City law is still in effect on the Azure City at sea fleet, otherwise we wouldn't have all this business about Kubota getting a trial, Hinjo not being able to deal with him for that past Ninja attack on lack of evidence and so on etc.

A bit like how if a ship picks up some guy floating in the sea and he then murders the bosun. When the Captain says "right, we'll have you up on murder" the guy doesn't have a chance of getting off by saying "Oh, so that's a crime where you come from? But I'm not a citizen of your nation, and we're not even in your country, we're on a ship in the middle of the ocean, so your laws don't apply".

Hinjo has a lot more to lose than V in any confrontation.

Which is what I was wondering, but of course the matter is complicated by a. Hinjo being the ruler and b. Hinjo being a Paladin, which ties him to upholding the laws of his people, maybe even if it means locking horns with scary V.

What could Elan do to locate Haley? He didn't do anything because he can't realistically do so.

He did try and convince Hinjo to go back to look for her, and I got the impression it wasn't the first time.

[NENAD]

In the middle of the ocean, the captain is the law. Period.

Evidently it doesn't work that way in refugee fleets, though.

[spectralphoenix]

Technically speaking, Elan is a caster, so he could theoretically research a new bard spell to find her. Not to mention that he could stop interfering with V. V has been content to stay in a cabin and work - everyone else keeps needing stuff from him/her.

Speaking of which, Hinjo needs V and the rest of the Order a lot more than V needs him. V is quite capable of Shadow Walking or Overland Flight-ing away to continue his/her research in more peace than s/he's been getting, leaving Hinjo to fight any preposterously large demons by himself.

[Skaarg]

A lot of people are saying that "Disintegrate/ Gust of Wind" were the four words. I was wondering if anyone could explain how it's leading towards ultimate power? Not asking in a sarcastic "I don't think so" way, just genuinely curious.

I don't understand this either, unless they're thinking that Vaarsuvius' willingness to use spells for metagame reasons is ultimate power.

I think, as per my spoiler above

Spoiler

Show

It is likely not that this two spell combo in and of itself will lead V to some sort of secret knowledge. Rather, I think that it will change the way V views the world in a way that will make the pursuit of power (including arcane power, but other sorts of power as well) easier to V.

Also, it's not so much the willingness to use spells for metagame reasons that I think is at issue, but the willingness to use spells for whatever V's reasons happen to be without any moral or ethical restraints. The metagame reasoning in the strip is never really anything but an added joke for the readers. V's real reasons for doing what V did were horrifyingly pragmatic to be sure (and so, in essence, not much different from "moving the plot along"), but the metagame explanation was really just there to make us laugh.

Remember, whatever V's claimed motivations are now, V's primary interests in the past have always been the acquisition of arcane power. Once V remembers that and realizes that V is more effective without allies (at least those of the do-gooder variety) than with them, I can't imagine that such things as friendship or ethical restraint will continue to play much of a role in V's decision making.

(This isn't to say that V will completely disavow the use of allies in the future, just that they might be called minions instead.)

[Skaarg]

On top of which:
Red eyes and veiny face = evil.
Not just evil, but like EE-VILLE, like the FRU-ITS of the DE-VILLE.

[TheAuldGrump]

It does look like V will be trying the fit on some spiffy new black robes sometime soon....

The Auld Grump

[dani_carip]

I'll admit, I was definitely hearing Alan Rickman as V here :DDD

Disturbingly, it was most clear in the "Have a cookie" line \:-|

[Wolf_In_Exile]

This one is looking bad for V

[Zurpl]

I bet that "have a cookie" line becomes a running gag. At least for the next comic. Oh! And I should say...

Another great work Giant! Keep 'em flowing like Niagra Falls!

[Grim ranger]

Woah, that was bit direct talk from V . But of course Elan is as dumb as box full of moldy carrots, so he did not get that, and V doesn't bother to correct .

This was another fantastic comic, Giant! Keep up the good work!