125 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 113

[MattR]

Probably not, they werent exactly parading Jillian around when she was a captive and Jack had table duties. Even if he had discovered she was alive i suspect that Wanda would have wiped his mind with that powder. With the possiblity of his crush i doubt shed have liked a rival hanging around.

Jillian did try to make Wanda defect, how likely would Jack have been to turn down a similar offer?

[ReccaSquirrel]

Caesar isn't dead. In panel 7 he is still glowing. He is probably stunned or tasered or whatever they call it in erfworld.

[teratorn]

Mario, the left-handed vampire...

if i was the Tool, I'd engage her directly with my wyrm breathing her weaker units to ashes, crippling the griffons if possible.

Jillian is keeping her gwiffons in her stack, so she can block his attack and inflict some damage to his mount. In fact she needs it, the plan probably thought Caeser would inflict at least some damage, he didn't. I don't think Jillian is on par with Stanley as it is. But with a restored foolamancer even that may not work (Jack may have a crush on Jillian but he may prefer to survive the fight).

The dwagons seem to be taking some beating, but that's because of the swarming by the bats they can not focus on the warlords. It's a good strategy but I bet there is a lot of chewing going on (even from the dwagons that were croaked) so bat numbers are going down fast. Once Stanley finishes off the big guys, even the warlords that are not facing the knights are doomed.

[eilandesq]

Let's review the bidding:

--Jack apparently has all his marbles back, and has recognized Jillian;

--Having all his marbles back, he probably remembers that Parson just sent him an urgent message to get the Tool back to Gobwin Knob, pronto;

--He also probably realizes that if he doesn't do something, Jillian and/or Stanley and himself are probably going to be croaked.

Prediction:

Spoiler

Show

Jack reacts by throwing up an illusion that makes the Tool think that he's blasted through Jillian and past the rest of the forces on the way to Faq, when he's actually missed her and is going back in the direction of Gobwin Knob with his force. The illusion would presumably also cloak the Tool's forces against detection, which would cause the Transylvito forces to start searching along the route to Faq on their next turn.

[Clintodon]

*Dons tinfoil hat*

Maybe it's just me, but I'm wondering if Jillian's going to do an Inigo (Iniga?) Montoya on the Tool ("You killed my father! Prepare to die!") - and whether the Tool's response might be "Nope, not me." Unless I've missed something in past comics, it's only been implied that Stanley took out FAQ, though it does seem pretty likely (Jillian said there was an overflight of dragons, next turn she was a Barbarian; Wanda and Jack are from FAQ).

So - what happens if Jillian finds out that Stanley the Worm ISN'T the one who KOed FAQ, and Jack confirms it?

OK, taking this thing off before I get hit by a stray lightning bolt . . .

*Removes tinfoil hat*

[ChowGuy]

Re Jack and Jillian:

We know, or at least have been told (by Jillian) only that Jack "had some kind of crush" on her. Nowhere is it even implied that that was mutual, and indeed the whole tone of the term is inherently dismissive on her part. Given as well her seeming teenage angsty rebelliousness at the time, and probable attraction instead to "bad girl" Wanda rather then the Foolamancer who was more likely Banhammer's own favorite, it's entirely probable that that dismissivenes was openly expressed.

That then raises the question of, if as others have suggested before, the Foolamancer was in some way responsible for betraying FAQ (I contention I don't necessarily buy, but stay with me here) then is it unreasonable to presume that he did so as "the one scorned" and/or as an effort to curry her favor?

Whether or not that's true, might Jillian be worried that it's the case? That look on her face strikes me as being as much an "oh NO! Not HIM too!" as an "Oh dear, I mustn't risk hurting my old chum!" Couple that with her thinking that Wanda couldn't be willingly working for Stanley, and yet obviously is, she's got to be wondering just what really went on back there while she was gone.

Unless of course she knows more then she's told Ansom, but we're pretty sure that's true already.

[ReccaSquirrel]

I think the most logical thing to follow is for Jack to put an illusion up to both allow Stanley to get past Jill but also prevent Jill from being killed by Stanley.

[Snow]

I don't think the hammer attack was clasical AOE attack, but mor an splash effect. With center attack on the warlord and splash the the heavies, and I think if the splash (ussually much less dmg than the main attack) looked enough to kill what would be almost heavies, the main was more than enough to kill a warlord.

[multilis]

Re Jack and Jillian:

We know, or at least have been told (by Jillian) only that Jack "had some kind of crush" on her. Nowhere is it even implied that that was mutual, and indeed the whole tone of the term is inherently dismissive on her part.

Jillian *believes* he had a crush on her, based on his coming back to sanity, there likely is some sort of strong emotional attachment. She stated that she would have loved to have Jack go on missions with her, she *may* like him. (her tone may be more with playing role of tough barbarian rather than 'weak' heart)

[Occasional Sage]

Dude, why so series? The language in Erfworld does not always parallel the real world. He was just trying to lightning up the mood a bit, in this otherwise grim electron year.

Nice, especially "parallel". That earns bonus points.

On a serious note: the more I look at this page, the better the art becomes. This might have bumped its way into the top spot of the comic to date, imo. Nice spot on the relative size of His Toolship's dwagon, teratorn, I hadn't noticed that. Also, i can't find the post again, but I hadn't caught the reversal of Jack's eyes. That's a subtle and classy touch, thanks for pointing it out.

[eilandesq]

I don't think the hammer attack was clasical AOE attack, but mor an splash effect. With center attack on the warlord and splash the the heavies, and I think if the splash (ussually much less dmg than the main attack) looked enough to kill what would be almost heavies, the main was more than enough to kill a warlord.

Vinnie was oversimplifying about the augmentation of the bats, anyway. To use D&D 3.5 as an example, you could take a group of twenty 1st level fighters and stack enough buffs on them so that they did as much damage individually as 20th level fighters and were basically as hard to hit with melee attacks as 20th level fighters--if they all get to attack first, they can damage even high level characters, and a real 20th level fighter might have trouble dealing with them. The 20th level wizard will laugh, fire off horrid wilting, and watch the twenty fighters die instantly in a clatter of expensive equipment, because they all still have low level hit points and saving throws. Real heavies would have a lot more hit points than bats, and presumably wouldn't be splattered by the secondary effects of the Arkenhammer's attack.

[Zolem]

Vinnie was oversimplifying about the augmentation of the bats, anyway. To use D&D 3.5 as an example, you could take a group of twenty 1st level fighters and stack enough buffs on them so that they did as much damage individually as 20th level fighters and were basically as hard to hit with melee attacks as 20th level fighters--if they all get to attack first, they can damage even high level characters, and a real 20th level fighter might have trouble dealing with them. The 20th level wizard will laugh, fire off horrid wilting, and watch the twenty fighters die instantly in a clatter of expensive equipment, because they all still have low level hit points and saving throws. Real heavies would have a lot more hit points than bats, and presumably wouldn't be splattered by the secondary effects of the Arkenhammer's attack.

That's what I'm thinking too. Hit: 1 + 12 Attack: 2 + 12 Def: 3 + 12 might kick some tail, but against an auto-15 hits AOE attack (and it is AOE if you study how a Van de Graff works) will still fry them simply because they lack the hits of a heavy.

[Laurentio II]

You know, I wonder if Jack even knew that Jillian was alive until that last panel. Neato.

He was part of a gestalt of wizard that tracked her in the first pages of the comic. So, "knowing" is yes. "Aware of her" less, as in that period he was only marginally in touch with reality (while not completely out, see Misty), and later he was... only marginally in touch with reality.

Now, it's me or the Transylvito style sucks?
"We have hundreds of bats that individually are very weak, but became strong due to Caesar. Caesar is the one charging the most powerful unit on the battlefield.". I tried to find the smart side of having Caesar in front line, and I can't. The only possible reason would be to prevent Stanley croak another warlord, but at risk of the team "bufferer"?

[ChowGuy]

Now, it's me or the Transylvito style sucks?
"We have hundreds of bats that individually are very weak, but became strong due to Caesar. Caesar is the one charging the most powerful unit on the battlefield.". I tried to find the smart side of having Caesar in front line, and I can't. The only possible reason would be to prevent Stanley croak another warlord, but at risk of the team "bufferer"?

All the bats in the hex get some bonus, but only the bats in the cheif warlord's personal stack get his full bonus. Any other warlord the bat rush is weaker. Plus, according to Vinny, the bats' purpose is mainly to run interference for the unit that will be making the actual attack on Stanley. Caesar is/was presumably the strongest of Transylvito's individual units, hence had the best chance of success in what was likely a one-shot goal.

[Laurentio II]

Caesar is/was presumably the strongest of Transylvito's individual units, hence had the best chance of success in what was likely a one-shot goal.

They sets a great scenario. Small group of powerful units against horde on normal units, until the chief warlord is alive. It require not a superior mind to see that the chief warlord is better to stay in the back line, to provide major bonus, for a round or two.
And don't forget that now even other Warlords will lose buffers, in a quite dire moment.

As a strategic games player, I prefer to flood the main target with spendable units to goat him in using some special attack, before moving the best units. In meantime, Caesar could have offed one dwagon or Knight with lesser risk.
Now, maybe they knew too little of the Arkenhammer power, or Caesar Borgia is way to overconfident. Anyway, the Transylvito style has paid very little up to this moment.
Let's see the next page. Hoping that Stanley doesn't blow the whistle in the Arkenhammer, because it would be very painful to see Vinnie die.

[MrWeaver]

I don't think the hammer attack was clasical AOE attack, but mor an splash effect. With center attack on the warlord and splash the the heavies, and I think if the splash (ussually much less dmg than the main attack) looked enough to kill what would be almost heavies, the main was more than enough to kill a warlord.

No-one else sees to have picked up on this, but I agree (I registered just to say so!). The Caesar clearly takes a more significant blast than any of the bats.

That's what I'm thinking too. Hit: 1 + 12 Attack: 2 + 12 Def: 3 + 12 might kick some tail, but against an auto-15 hits AOE attack (and it is AOE if you study how a Van de Graff works) will still fry them simply because they lack the hits of a heavy.

I'm not sure how the real world physics applies to Erfworld. Van de Graff generators do not deal "area of effect damage" :P The rate of discharge from the bell will be greater for objects touching it which have lower resistance (assuming grounded or oppositely charged!). Perhaps if you want to think of it as in real world physics, you could liken that to the target of the attack taking the brunt.

And my own two pence, I don't know what to think about Caesar hanging in the background, but I lean towads him being croaked... or whatever happens to vamps. He took a dierct hit from Stanley, an extremely powerful warlord (safe assumption I hope!) using a visually stunning special attack with an arifact! Of course we have no idea about the numbers, but that sounds damaging ;)

One more thing - people have talked about Vinnie's analysis of the battle. I don't think he or anyone in the coalition have any way to see what Stanley's leadership is, or the artifact bonus. I reckon he's making to many guesses and praps underestimating Staney the "worm".

[teratorn]

It require not a superior mind to see that the chief warlord is better to stay in the back line, to provide major bonus, for a round or two.
And don't forget that now even other Warlords will lose buffers, in a quite dire moment.

As long as Stanley lives there is a huge warlord and artifact bonus added to his units.

How many rounds does it take for Stanley to reach the other end of the hex? Their goal is to stop Stanley, not necessarily to win the battle. The warlords and the bats, in this plan, were there just to storm the dwagons and let Caeser have a go at Stanley.

After one or two rounds there won't be enough bats to swarm the dwagons, the bats only buy them time to isolate Stanley's mount. At first chance they had to go for the kill. Caeser, the strongest of the bunch, didn't even delay Stanley, what chance did the others have? From the dismissive tone employed by Caeser he was probably much stronger than Jillian.

One more thing - people have talked about Vinnie's analysis of the battle. I don't think he or anyone in the coalition have any way to see what Stanley's leadership is, or the artifact bonus. I reckon he's making to many guesses and praps underestimating Staney the "worm".

I agree with that, their plan probably could not factor in the real strength of the Arkenhammer. And they don't have a mathamancer!

[Laurentio II]

As long as Stanley lives there is a huge warlord and artifact bonus added to his units.

You are right here.

How many rounds does it take for Stanley to reach the other end of the hex? Their goal is to stop Stanley, not necessarily to win the battle. The warlords and the bats, in this plan, were there just to storm the dwagons and let Caeser have a go at Stanley.

Understood the strategy. But than, it has been badly used.
Flight of bats to slow down dwagons are a good idea, but where are the other warlord? One could think that half a dozen warlords would not being better used in a close combat against Stanley, instead of engaging knights and dwagons?

I agree with that, their plan probably could not factor in the real strength of the Arkenhammer. And they don't have a mathamancer!

Their demise, and I'm sad because I liked them.

I'm starting to think that "Transylvito style" means "Romance Mafia style" for real. The most important killer on the target, while the other observe in awesomeness. Than, someone will have to avenge the previous killer, in endless rings of blood.
Or, Power of Mafia Gangstar Conservation. One single Transylvite is better than two.

[SteveMB]

Flight of bats to slow down dwagons are a good idea, but where are the other warlord? One could think that half a dozen warlords would not being better used in a close combat against Stanley, instead of engaging knights and dwagons?

They may not have had an alternative -- against an enemy force that big and powerful, Caesar may have needed most of their forces to "open the front door and let me at the warlord" (with Jillian and her gwiffons held back as a reserve for one last "Hail Mary" attempt if Plan A failed, and possibly also because Caesar didn't entirely trust her).

[kreszantas]

the other warlords appear to be distracting the other dwagons so Stanley could not gang up on Cesar which is a good strat...

[kreszantas]

As long as Stanley lives there is a huge warlord and artifact bonus added to his units.

How many rounds does it take for Stanley to reach the other end of the hex? Their goal is to stop Stanley, not necessarily to win the battle. The warlords and the bats, in this plan, were there just to storm the dwagons and let Caeser have a go at Stanley.

After one or two rounds there won't be enough bats to swarm the dwagons, the bats only buy them time to isolate Stanley's mount. At first chance they had to go for the kill. Caeser, the strongest of the bunch, didn't even delay Stanley, what chance did the others have? From the dismissive tone employed by Caeser he was probably much stronger than Jillian.



I agree with that, their plan probably could not factor in the real strength of the Arkenhammer. And they don't have a mathamancer!

Agreed... the whole objective was just Stanley, the rest would crumble once he croaked simple effective strat but sometimes difficult to execute.

Also we need some Tesla and the Great Radio Controversy inserted into this electric pun-o-riffic thread, together with the Danish metal band of Van de Graff as well... props...

[Emo Samurai]

Jillian must have AWESOME pheromones. Every major character seems to have a romantic past with her.

And as a side note, Akane Tendo.

[hajo]

From the dismissive tone employed by Caeser he was probably much stronger than Jillian.

I doubt it. Jillian was heir to Faq, so she most likely held the position as overlord there.
As barbarian/merc, she has been fighting constantly since then, and very likely has seen more action than Caesar.

OTOH, Warlords are able to see the stats of units and other warlords on their own side, so they all should have a pretty accurate idea of their own strength.

[teratorn]

Understood the strategy. But than, it has been badly used.
Flight of bats to slow down dwagons are a good idea, but where are the other warlord? One could think that half a dozen warlords would not being better used in a close combat against Stanley, instead of engaging knights and dwagons?

It depends on stack attack rules and how space is used in Erfworld. If I were Stanley I would split my units in many stacks. Depending on the definition of "contact" this might force the enemy to send one warlord to fight each of the stacks of dwagons (in order to maintain the bonus on the bats).

The knights probably had to be engaged, since they may be able to ignore the bats and shield the tool. With the strongest warlords engaged with the Knights it's possible that the small bonus from the Erfworld equivalent of a few Doras would not make much difference in regard to Caeser's attack. And while Caeser may have survived the AoE attack, the "Doras" would be toast.

But without knowing the rules that's a lot of maybes... for dramatic effect the warlords had to stay close to the bats.

I do like your idea of a "Romance Mafia style."

[Eraniverse]

I doubt it. Jillian was heir to Faq, so she most likely held the position as overlord there.
As barbarian/merc, she has been fighting constantly since then, and very likely has seen more action than Caesar.

OTOH, Warlords are able to see the stats of units and other warlords on their own side, so they all should have a pretty accurate idea of their own strength.

Jillian had to be rescued from an uncroaked warlord on a wounded dwagon. True there were a few other things going on that took out her gwiffon screen but still I think it's safe to say that this isn't an even fight approaching. I suspect hijinks may ensue to alter the expected outcome.

[xopher.tm]

Hard rocking KISS dancefighting allows it, after all, who hasn't heard a guitar referred to as an axe? The "I Love It LOUD!!!" frame proves it.

Yet another reason why KISS Dancefighting > WSS dancefighting.

Nawww.... With the Two-Handed Metal Axe of Düme* it's known as Head Banging (literally). Very different style. The worry here, of course, is that The Tool's Demons (at least the one shown) have been suckered into fighting in the Doombats' WSS Style.


* Note use of Heavy Metal Umlaut.

[Oslecamo]

Loved this comic. STANLEY THE TOOL SHOWING WHO ROCKS HARDER AND BEATING SOME PUNKS YEAAHHH!

Loved the battle cry, hehe.

Ok, my 2 cents:

1-Caesar is dead, and the glow is just the after effects of the energy. Vampires don't faint or get stunned. When they stop moving, they won't move anymore.

2-Jillian doesn't stand a chance against berserker mode Stanley, but Jack will do some magic to get her out of the way.

3-The reason the other warlords attacked the dragons was to force Stanley in single fight with Caesar. If they all tried to mass in a single hex, they would risk all geting slaughtered with the hammer cleaving effect. Stanley seems to have some kind of "first strike" power(hit theym before they hit you), and warlord bonus probably don't stack with themselves, so Caesar fighting alone or with another 10 warlords at his side would be more or less the same. Bats, on the other hand, are expendable.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Jillian must have AWESOME pheromones. Every major character seems to have a romantic past with her.

And as a side note, Akane Tendo.

You have to appreciate how utterly useless wikipedia can be.

[Sygerrik]

It's possible that Stanley struck first because it's still his turn.
Also, remember that we really have no idea what the Arkenhammer does. It could be a small bonus to Stanley's martial prowess, it could be a massive addition. Stanley is crazy-overconfident, but part of the reason for that is that his hammer has never given him a reason not to be.
Also, in calculating the odds for this fight, Ansom must have assumed that a) many more Unipegataurs and Gwiffons would be alive and b) Archons, who as we have seen are totally badass, would be accompanying the ambush stacks. At this point, it will take a miracle for the Transylvitians to stop Stanley or even survive-- which, combined with Jetstone's loss in the tunnels, could fracture the alliance.

[Arkenputtyknife]

You have to appreciate how utterly useless wikipedia can be.

Oh, it's not utterly useless, though thanks to Deletionism it's trying hard. It's the Swiss cheese of Internet resources: tasty in places but full of holes.