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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

    "As I recall, the albatrose was a sign of good luck until some fool went and shot it." -Malcolm Reynolds

    Bad move, V.

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    Default Re: OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by derfenrirwolv View Post
    A LN character can have a LE familiar i beleive.

    Qarr "I see you are currently without a familiar. Perhaps i could join you, and tempt you slowly to the darkskide, mayby help you find that redhead you wanted. It will be realy cool! I can sit on your shoulder and win arguments with your concious and stuff!

    V: I have no idea of what you're speaking. My familiar is right here and has been all along *pop* Lightning bolt.
    Why do people think V doesn't have a familiar? Blackwing turns up only once every now and then (and then disappears when the characters aren't thinking about it). The last time Blackwing was full of arrows but still got back and wasn't dead.

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    Default Re: OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

    Four right words:
    I have enough. Disintegrate.

    To the right being
    Qarr

    At the right time
    Still thinking about it

    For all the wrong reasons
    Imp will just slow me down, I need to be alone
    (as opposed to: Gosh, an Imp just came for assistance... maybe I'm evil)


    EDIT: I agree with others: "Have a nice trip" is the best line by Elan in a very long time. Elan is becoming a much more interesting character who has a heart and *gosh* a brain.
    Last edited by Jan Mattys; 2008-10-08 at 01:17 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AstralFire View Post
    Sitting down and cooperating for 6 seconds would have probably allowed the Pit Fiend to go down a lot easier.
    Probably.

    In your estimation.

    With the benefit of hindsight.

    Yeah, sure was V's fault. Should've been you and looked on three or four strips in the future.

    Pshaw! That silly V!!!

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    Default Re: OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Probably.

    In your estimation.

    With the benefit of hindsight.

    Yeah, sure was V's fault. Should've been you and looked on three or four strips in the future.

    Pshaw! That silly V!!!
    Yes. There's absolutely no way that I would have come to that conclusion prior to the benefit of hindsight, especially not with Mr. Burlew going so far as to have Durkon attempt to work with V only to get really badly rebuffed. Cooperation and coordination was an idea alien to me until approximately six hours ago when, in a desperate scramble to find things to dislike about a character, I decided it was necessary to criticize something at random. This was, in no way, my immediate reaction on reading whatever strip it was that the Pit Fiend showed up in. You have me pegged so perfectly that I should call you MC Pegmeister Peggy, Esquire.

    Alternate theory: It doesn't take hindsight to realize that coordination is most useful when fighting an overwhelming force. The Battle of Rorke's Drift wouldn't have been worth a breath in history if everyone there had decided to just start running out and attacking willy-nilly, leaving every man to fight for himself.
    Last edited by AstralFire; 2008-10-08 at 01:26 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Why do people think V doesn't have a familiar? Blackwing turns up only once every now and then (and then disappears when the characters aren't thinking about it). The last time Blackwing was full of arrows but still got back and wasn't dead.


    I dunno. Ask someone that thinks V doesn't have a familiar. (and the last time he was seen was http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0440.html )

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    Default Re: OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

    I couldn't read 7 pages of comments so if someone already posted this sorry. Here's what I think will happen:

    Spoiler
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    The Imp wants to go into the ship:
    "And here I thought the hardest part would be getting back abord a ship with two paladins".

    Imps have alternte form:
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#imp

    So the imp will disguise as V so he can be in the boat freely.

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    Default Re: OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by arkol View Post
    I couldn't read 7 pages of comments so if someone already posted this sorry. Here's what I think will happen:

    Spoiler
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    The Imp wants to go into the ship:
    "And here I thought the hardest part would be getting back abord a ship with two paladins".

    Imps have alternte form:
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#imp

    So the imp will disguise as V so he can be in the boat freely.
    Huh. That's a pretty clever theory.
    A long time ago, in a galaxy far,
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    Default Re: OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

    I just remind a thing from Vaarsuvius... "I blame Cerebus".
    Ah, the irony...

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    Default Re: OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Scutatus View Post
    Actually I think it was very mature. V just committed cold blooded murder and threatened to do the same to Elan for the slimmest of reasons.
    Epic Wrong.

    If you need to know what the dictionary definition of that would be, it would point to the above.

    We already have had about 40 pages of "It's Murder!" and queries about "Why now and not then?".

    And we have chewed the fat and pretty much got to a conclusion that that wasn't a threat meant AS "I'm going to kill you" in rather the same way as when you were thirteen and you were grounded for swearing at your mum and you said "I'm gonna KILL YOU". (Or Ballmer was going to really kill Google).

    Unless you really HAVE killed your parents in an adolescent fit of rage...

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    Default Re: OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

    ...but c'mon! We need ye!
    And yet I see no reason why I still need ye.
    You.

    That made me laugh
    But yeah, the group is splitting even more now... V's obssession is getting the better of him. Or her.

    Member of the Hinjo fan club. Go Hinjo!
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    Default Re: OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by derfenrirwolv View Post
    I dunno. Ask someone that thinks V doesn't have a familiar. (and the last time he was seen was http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0440.html )
    I'd forgotten about 440. Last I remembered was after the bandit camp. Which made it of *some* sense that a few had been going on about Quar was going to be V's familiar 'cos he needed one.

    Maybe you meant Quar would *replace* Blackwing, but I think that still costs the caster 1CON point.

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    Default Re: OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Yeah, sure was V's fault. Should've been you and looked on three or four strips in the future.
    You're talking about a being who is, in fact, capable of looking into the future via magic. Not only that, be he has a web browser spell! He could have done exactly what you're suggesting, and didn't.
    Real wizards use staves

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    Default Re: OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamthiev View Post
    But really, I wish the group would start merging back together instead of splitting into smaller groups.
    Quoteth for truth. I wish the group would get back together soon too...much sooner than it currently looks like is going to happen, because, to me, this isn't very Stick imho.

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    Default Re: OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

    I've been thinking that V has been going down the road of the bad guy recently, however, now I am thinking something else.

    600 might show that V still has morals. Qarr will offer V unlimited power in return for his soul or something along that vein and V will go "how about no" and zap him - just to show us that while V may not be the moral compass of the party, he certainly isn't a villian just yet.

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    Default Re: OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by arkol View Post
    I couldn't read 7 pages of comments so if someone already posted this sorry. Here's what I think will happen:

    Spoiler
    Show

    The Imp wants to go into the ship:
    "And here I thought the hardest part would be getting back abord a ship with two paladins".

    Imps have alternte form:
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#imp

    So the imp will disguise as V so he can be in the boat freely.
    Hm...clever, but not possible by RAW. Not that that's ever stopped The Giant before.
    Spoiler
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    No possible imp alternate forms even remotely resemble an elf, jokes about how V's health aside.


    This is also outside the RAW, but to combine your theory with a couple of others:
    Spoiler
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    One possible alternate form for an imp is a raven. If V were to somehow switch out Blackwing for Quar(which V would probably do if the offer doesn't cause V to realize that V is turning evil, considering how much V is always bitching about it), then Quar could impersonate Blackwing in an attempt to disguise just how bad V has gotten from Haley.
    Quote Originally Posted by Asmodeus View Post
    However, the general consensus about the best way to stop a monster from attacking is to kill it. In the case of undead, we recommend killing it again.
    2 useful principles for keeping roleplaying games fun.

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    Default Re: OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

    A number of readers have taken issue with my criticism of the tale's drift from the main plot, operating under the assumption that this grievance meant I wanted the story to be shorter. It's a flawed assumption; the story could have kept the Order from reaching their goal for the same amount of storytelling without having to take them off course for so long.

    With strip #599, there is again the suggestion of moving toward the goal and toward foreshadowed character-defining events, and it's being handled in a fashion that creates obstacles for the party (the further sundering of the group) while still moving at least one of them in the direction of their goal. This was well done, and I wish we'd seen more of (what will be) the fourth book's events to date handled in similar fashion. Not all of them, please understand -- not everything can or should be tied to the gate quest -- but more of them.

    (For example, it wouldn't have been hard to link Kubota to the gates: portrayed as he was, it's somewhat hard to believe that he wouldn't have sent ninja to learn what Hinjo had been trying to keep out of Xykon's hands, then done his best to learn more of the other two gates, seeking a bargaining chip that might both get his city back and discredit Hinjo. Knowing Xykon, Kubota might have plenty of cause to regret such a deal. Doesn't mean he wouldn't have risked it, considering the prize at stake.)

    There are a few more things I like about this strip. First, V's physical condition clearly refutes the claim for not needing rest. I'm puzzled on one point, however: how is the elf recovering spells without resting? The possible rendezvous with Quarr also has potential -- even if it does delay a reunion between V and Haley, the imp would be very interested in opportunities offered by the gates.

    Finally, I loved everything about Elan's handling of the situation. The quick, neutral farewell, followed by a very to-the-point remark displayed maturity and possibly the closest thing to leadership this trio has right now. It was then followed by an expression of doubt that echoes remarks we saw in strip #596 ("I guess--I guess it's for the best."), though with a bit more certainty ("I think -- I think it's for the best," and then, "It's probably for the best.") His opinion may be horribly wrong, if Quarr has anything to say about it, but there's plenty to indicate that talking V into staying might be the wrong thing to do as far as everyone is concerned (or at least for Hinjo, Elan, and V).

    I also like how Elan suggested to V that he'd tell Hinjo the truth, then appeared to change his mind at the last moment. It was worth seeing how easily the lie unravelled as well (even if Hinjo isn't going to press the issue further), since lying was V's suggestion. I don't know if I've ever seen Elan lose his temper quite like this before either. (Anger at his brother came out a bit different, and anger at V over the multi-class-to-wizard fiasco seem to have come out in very different style.)

    Back to V, though -- or rather, to Quarr:

    Spoiler
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    Imps can assume two animal forms, with raven being one of the more popular choices (according to the MM listing -- gamers may have another opinion on the subject). Anyone else wondering if he might try to pass himself off as Blackwing or another familiar? It should be easy enough to uncover the ruse -- the lack of an empathic link alone ought to be a dead giveaway -- but I'm not sure V's faculties are reliable enough to work through whatever pretext the Giant might offer Quarr.

    Please note that I find this highly unlikely. I only mention it because the raven link has entertaining possibilities, whether or not V could see through the facade.

    As for whether or not Blackwing is still around, their final appearance does have a sort of "last straw" feeling for both of them.


    My only complaint about the strip is with its title, but that's only because I've got a Journey song stuck in my head now.

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    Default Re: OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SPoD View Post
    Ah, but Elan knows that Kubota's armor is down there. Sharks may devour whole bodies, but they rarely remove their equipment before doing so.
    Yeah, but what goes in has to come out at some point...
    May you get EXACTLY what you wish for.

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    Default Re: OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

    Hm...clever, but not possible by RAW. Not that that's ever stopped The Giant before.
    Damn... that's what happens when you don't read the whole ability...

    However....
    Spoiler
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    Quar is not a simple "out of the book" imp. He probably has class levels of some sort, most likely a caster class. Thus he could easily have another way to change his form...

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    Default Re: OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

    woah...this person hit the nail on the head
    Quote Originally Posted by Squid Thingy View Post
    I really liked this theory (unfortunatly I can't remember who posted it)
    Spoiler
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    "Show me Haley Starshine!". V is searching for them mostly out of guilt and trying preserve his self image as a superior being of awesome arcane power. In his quest to find Haley and Belkar he's going out of his mind, and it's not far fetched that he gets some powerful mage to help him on his quest (possibly a demon/devil/doily). The right time being when the duration of the cloister spell runs out, the wrong reasons - he's doing it out of selfishness rather than sincere concern for his comrades.
    or the 4 words could be "I will join you"
    I still don't get the right time. Most likely when there's a path to join evil or the order set before him/her
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    Default Re: OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by arkol View Post
    I couldn't read 7 pages of comments so if someone already posted this sorry. Here's what I think will happen:

    Spoiler
    Show

    The Imp wants to go into the ship:
    "And here I thought the hardest part would be getting back abord a ship with two paladins".

    Imps have alternte form:
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#imp

    So the imp will disguise as V so he can be in the boat freely.
    Flying the wrong direction in the last panel. Clearly some interaction with V is planned.

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    Default Re: OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AstralFire View Post
    Yes. There's absolutely no way that I would have come to that conclusion prior to the benefit of hindsight, especially not with Mr. Burlew going so far as to have Durkon attempt to work with V only to get really badly rebuffed. Cooperation and coordination was an idea alien to me until approximately six hours ago when, in a desperate scramble to find things to dislike about a character, I decided it was necessary to criticize something at random. This was, in no way, my immediate reaction on reading whatever strip it was that the Pit Fiend showed up in. You have me pegged so perfectly that I should call you MC Pegmeister Peggy, Esquire.
    So exactly how was cooperation going to help? The "aerial livery service" idea wasn't even feasible, unless V's plans for achieving ultimate arcane power have involved raising his strength score heavily. Durkon suggested that he heal V, and V countered with a suggestion to lower the fiends saves (a tactic which directly resulted in its defeat.)

    And as long as we're talking about it, Therkla left halfway through the fight, was probably significantly lower level than the PCs, and wasn't in a position to sudden strike. Hinjo is 12th level or so, but was taking some hurt by then, and his dog was out of the picture. Lien is even lower level, and was having trouble beating the devil's DR. Elan isn't terribly good at melee even at the best of times, and probably wasn't packing a silver rapier. Durkon is a healer, not CoDzilla. So it wasn't a pack of 15th level characters going after a CR 20. Additionally, the reason the CR system seems a bit low is because most PCs optimize their characters significantly more than the Gimbles and Jozans the system assumes. THis isn't true with the Order. So really, the best option against a single overwhelmingly difficult opponent IS to lower its saves and throw save-or-dies.

    As for the AC battle, consider what would have happened if either side hadn't had their high level characters. Without Redcloaks summons, the walls would have held much longer. V would have been free to blast the hobbos all day long without the Death Knight, and his enchanced soldiers could have kept killing. Xykon wouldn't have wiped out the occupants of the keep.

    On the other hand, Xykon has DR enough so that the common soldiers can't touch him. He could have bombarded the soldiers from his dragon (that they can't hurt with arrows either) until he runs out of spells, then land and make touch attacks until he re-dies of boredom. Without the hoards of ghosts in the throne room, he and Redcloak would have been virtually unopposed.
    When in doubt, light something on fire.

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    Default Re: OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by arkol View Post
    I couldn't read 7 pages of comments so if someone already posted this sorry. Here's what I think will happen:

    Spoiler
    Show

    The Imp wants to go into the ship:
    "And here I thought the hardest part would be getting back abord a ship with two paladins".

    Imps have alternte form:
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#imp

    So the imp will disguise as V so he can be in the boat freely.
    From the SRD: Each imp can assume one or two forms from the following list: Small or Medium monstrous spider, raven, rat, and boar.
    When in doubt, light something on fire.

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    Default Re: OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

    This is a cliffhanger if I've ever seen one, and three things can happen.

    1. It can be played straight, Qarr persuades V to team up and V's slippery slope becomes 30 degrees more steep.
    2. It can be played straight, Qarr offers his services, but V refuses and zaps him.
    3. It can be averted with V completely ignoring Qarr, or even Qarr not being able to catch up to V's fly speed.

    Unfortunately, my gut says 1 is the most likely option.

    EDIT: Crackpot idea

    4. The comic switches suddenly to Haley/Xykon/LG, and we don't find out what happens for at least 20-30 strips.
    Last edited by RMS Oceanic; 2008-10-08 at 02:00 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by spectralphoenix View Post
    So exactly how was cooperation going to help? The "aerial livery service" idea wasn't even feasible, unless V's plans for achieving ultimate arcane power have involved raising his strength score heavily. Durkon suggested that he heal V, and V countered with a suggestion to lower the fiends saves (a tactic which directly resulted in its defeat.)
    Please don't jump into an argument where one person (me) is taking on about 3 or 4 and not read past posts; it leads to more typing and ring-around-rosie debating than necessary:

    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    Fly spell. "Oh, hey, Hinjo can fly now and doesn't need to waste time making leaping one-attack charges, not to mention no longer being bunched up on the ground for the fiend's AoE blasts!" Enlarge person, any number of buffs or debuffs to make the front-liner a bigger and bigger threat so V can blast with less notice from a farther distance. V's spellbook isn't ALL direct damage, though the likely low amount of buffs he carries and his strategem in general also point towards his self-centeredness screwing over his competency.
    And as long as we're talking about it, Therkla left halfway through the fight, was probably significantly lower level than the PCs, and wasn't in a position to sudden strike.
    As did Elan - but I don't blame anyone for not anticipating their leaving, only for not utilizing them while they were there. Also, I'm pretty sure Therkla was PC level.

    Hinjo is 12th level or so, but was taking some hurt by then, and his dog was out of the picture.
    And coordination and cooperation would have minimized that.

    Lien is even lower level, and was having trouble beating the devil's DR.
    However, she has healing and the ability to support.

    Elan isn't terribly good at melee even at the best of times, and probably wasn't packing a silver rapier.
    He has gotten solidly better, and V has shown the ability to help Elan make good use of his spells before. There is also Inspire Courage to consider. Remember, I didn't say V was incapable, I said he was incompetent; Elan is incapable AND incompetent, though he's rising in both estimations slowly.

    Durkon is a healer, not CoDzilla.
    And people were getting hurt, and the Big D has shown the ability to lay a powerful smackdown more than once.

    As for the AC battle, consider what would have happened if either side hadn't had their high level characters. Without Redcloaks summons, the walls would have held much longer. V would have been free to blast the hobbos all day long without the Death Knight, and his enchanced soldiers could have kept killing. Xykon wouldn't have wiped out the occupants of the keep.

    On the other hand, Xykon has DR enough so that the common soldiers can't touch him. He could have bombarded the soldiers from his dragon (that they can't hurt with arrows either) until he runs out of spells, then land and make touch attacks until he re-dies of boredom. Without the hoards of ghosts in the throne room, he and Redcloak would have been virtually unopposed.
    At no point did I say or even suggest the high-level characters were irrelevant. That is not the same as saying the low-level ones are irrelevant either. Xykon is epic and can indeed epic-out the hordes of common soldiers, sure, but the OotS can't quite-so-easily do that to the hobgoblin armies. Having every inch of support against those armies helps.
    Last edited by AstralFire; 2008-10-08 at 02:07 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by spectralphoenix View Post
    From the SRD: Each imp can assume one or two forms from the following list: Small or Medium monstrous spider, raven, rat, and boar.
    Yes spectralphoenix, so Winged One pointed out quite a few posts before you....

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    Default Re: OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

    Not good. . . good comic, though, giant. I think 600 is going to have the imp making an alliance with V, now. Also, have changed Sig. to have new fav quote: They were Dire Half-Dragon Bone-Eating Werepirannas, Okay?!?!?:Elan:
    Avatar by neoseph7. Avatar hosted here.

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    Default Re: OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

    I was surprised to see V just up and leave, but in retrospect, I guess I shouldn't have been. The same statement applies to Durkon looking sad over V's departure. Good ol' Durkon.

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    Default Re: OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by FelixZ View Post
    Does this mean V will be getting replaced (with Hinjo? Please?)
    Yeah, I'm sure the ruler of Azure city will happily abdicate his thrne in favour of the nobles in his cities hour of need inrder to go wandering round dungeons with the order

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    Brilliant, just brilliant...
    I guess this marks the end of the OotS as a group of adventurers and starts to consider them as characters of a novel though. This is a great but so not D&D anymore.
    I don't see why. Here's why they split up:
    Haley's player (lets call her Harriet) can't make it to the thursday evening d&d sessions for a while 'cos she's doing an evening class, or some other regular thing. Eventually she'll finish them, but for now it's decided she'll game on a wedsday instead. Bob (belkar's player) and maybe roy's player, Rob, (taking over Celia) decide to play on wednesdays for a while, but everyone else is as normal, and the dm runs 2 sessions a week. While this is going on, Leslie (V's player) drops out of the group, meaning the DM takes over as V.
    Ta da!

    (and to join in the mass prediction making, I reckon #600 will see us switch over to Haley.)
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    Default Re: OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by FMArthur View Post
    This is gonna be hilarious. Lien will find Kubota's armor on the seafloor, and report that he got away again.
    ... or else report that Elan was right. Elan did say "bone-eating" piranhas, not "metal-eating" piranhas.

    It's weird: I used to hate Elan, and now I'm starting to like him. He's helping to find Haley in the only way he can: wishing Vaarsuvius luck.

    The first couple of frames in the second page are an interesting turn around from the last strip. Elan tries to let Vaarsuvius know that he'll be telling Hinjo the truth, but is not understood because Vaarsuvius isn't listening. Then because he didn't get through to Vaarsuvius, he isn't up to following through.

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