OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

[AstralFire]

... or else report that Elan was right. Elan did say "bone-eating" piranhas, not "metal-eating" piranhas.

It's weird: I used to hate Elan, and now I'm starting to like him. He's helping to find Haley in the only way he can: wishing Vaarsuvius luck.

The first couple of frames in the second page are an interesting turn around from the last strip. Elan tries to let Vaarsuvius know that he'll be telling Hinjo the truth, but is not understood because Vaarsuvius isn't listening. Then because he didn't get through to Vaarsuvius, he isn't up to following through.

Nice catch. I wonder if that was intentional, or just one of those funny authorial coinkydinks.

[Yoyoyo]

Flying the wrong direction in the last panel. Clearly some interaction with V is planned.

Yes, and I read the "hard part getting back aboard the ship with two paladins" was not said because Qarr wanted to infiltrate the ship, but because he's had his eye on V and wants to join up with her. V just took out a major Pit Fiend and Kubota had been siding against him lately:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0562.html

And, not sure if I'm right, but Qarr doesn't know that Kubota is dead. I bet he finds out soon enough when he meets up with V. I doubt that the Imp is going anywhere too soon.

[factotum]

To my mind, Qarr wanted to get back aboard the ship to meet up with V for a bit of the old tempting to the evil side, I agree there; however, I think Qarr's reasons for doing so are because he saw what V did to Kubota and recognised someone who was ripe for temptation, not because he's been watching him off-panel for the past few weeks or something. He would also recognise that V is by far and away the most powerful character he's likely to meet--Kubota may have had power through dint of money and nobility, but V has power intrinsically, which is much easier and more direct to make use of.

[Yoyoyo]

I think Qarr's reasons for doing so are because he saw what V did to Kubota and recognised someone who was ripe for temptation, not because he's been watching him off-panel for the past few weeks or something. He would also recognise that V is by far and away the most powerful character he's likely to meet--Kubota may have had power through dint of money and nobility, but V has power intrinsically, which is much easier and more direct to make use of.

Did Qarr actually see V kill Kubota? Some off panel lurking is necessary if he says that he did. But I think you're right on V is the most powerful and bound to attract an Imp in hir current state of mind.

[synnerman]

Hello Dark Willow, I mean Dark Phoenix, I mean Dark Varsuvius!

[TheNovak]

Sneaky Imp + Poison Tail + Distracted V + Probably Fortitude Penalties for Going Months Without Trancing = V ain't goin' nowhere.

[Tobrian]

Wow, that was... harsh.

The first thought that went through my mind when I read the update, though, was not "Fellowship of the Ring: The Parting of the Ways", but "Varsuuvius is doing a Raistlin" (anyone who knows Dragonlance will know what I mean).

Sneaky Imp + Poison Tail + Distracted V + Probably Fortitude Penalties for Going Months Without Trancing = V ain't goin' nowhere.

Actually, i believe, since imps can see alignment auras, the imp is seeing someone who is evil, and wants a new master... evil characters can have imps as advanced familiars.

Poor imp is gonna be torn into shreads. V is as pissed as I've ever seen him/her.

Yes, I think that if the imp believes it can manipulate V, it is sorely mistaken. V is not Kubota. Kubota was a shortsighted vain selfish man. V is, above all things, loyal to his friends, especially to Haley and Roy.

V seems to have gone from True Neutral Alignment straight to Lawful Evil, if indeed he/she is evil, and not still neutral. (One execution of someone who would or should have been tried and sentenced to death for high treason and mass murder does not make you evil in my book, and neither does being curt and impolite and sarcastic, but I digress.)

V definitely is NOT neutral evil; he may seem selfish to Durkon, but actually I think V is the exact opposite of selfish. V runs himself ragged to find Haley, and also for a greater goal: saving the world from Xykon. Yes, in the beginning V's goal was to attain "ultimate power" for himself... now he wants greater power to destroy Xykon and stop Recloak, which is far more noble. Becoming a lich to kill a lich?

Interesting that this time, Elan is the guy to get it. "Have a nice trip." Because in a way, V is correct. They have more important things to do than waste time on political games and refugees. Those are Hinjos responsibility.

[David Argall]

I, for one, hope that this is just a big buildup to getting the band back together. Having 4+ parallel indeterminate story lines is starting to make OoTS seem like Heroes.

The party has been split for quite long enough, but is going to be split for a lot more time. I'm beginning to wonder if they will even get together this book. Still, we have about 70 pages to go, and a re-united party would make for a good final page.

Why do people think V doesn't have a familiar? Blackwing turns up only once every now and then (and then disappears when the characters aren't thinking about it). The last time Blackwing was full of arrows but still got back and wasn't dead.

The last time was 440, and Blackwing's comments can easily be read as resigning the office of familiar. So if it is plot useful, and it is looking like it is, V has an opening for a familiar.

And no, V is not going to one spell zap the little fellow. Why bring him back into the story just for a one panel shot? Qarr may not get the exact office of familiar, but he looks to be paling around with V for several strips.

Oooh. Could Qarr be "the wrong being"? (Goes to re-check the oracle's wording).

Edit: It's the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons. I sense a step closer to that prophecy becoming fulfilled, though.

Actually, I think we already had the four words (Disintegrate. Gust of Wind.) at the right time (before a would-be trial) to the right being (Kubota) for the wrong reasons (it was not a good act, nor was it a lawful one, and the paladins would not tolerate it).

This idea was dubious when it was first suggested, and now is simply not on the table. The "4 words" are 2 spells, which are merely written as 4 words for convenience, not 4 words for actual hearing. Nor were they said to Kubota. A great many of us would deny this was the right time, and "wrong reasons" normally means reasons you would feel were unimportant under the circumstances when you look back, not factors you already knew.

Qarr fits much better here Something like "You are my familiar" would be 4 words to the right individual and we can assume it is the right time to get mucho magic power, and the wrong reasons could turn out to be either the rescue of Haley [who was about to rescue herself, or the obtaining of power [which it turns out V doesn't want all that much]

Think Qarr might know about the gates, since Sabine told her masters, and maybe they have the same bosses? Or that he heard about the gates through the Infernal Grapevine?

At last report, Qarr had no knowledge of the gates and is a LE devil while Sabine is apparently a CE demon, who at least reports to a different boss. Of course our heros have babbled about the gates at times, and Qarr may have been listening, but much of Kubota's behavior would be absurd if he was advised by an imp who knew about the gates.

It may be his top priority, but V is dumb as an awakened brick - he's the stereotypical fighter of the party. Assumes he should be in charge, no emotional intelligence, has no ability to lead, and his methodology involves hitting the thing harder again.

Now V has shown no interest in leading from the start. There are few she is willing to take orders from, but when he respects his leader, he is perhaps the best in the party at following those orders.
And it is rather dubious to criticize V's abilities after she took out the devil. Nor will it do here to say his tactics could have been better. The scene is written to show V at her best [and arrogant worst] and any improvements in his tactics largely represent writer or reader error.

Well, we know how strip 600 will be important now.

Last time I was suggesting that 598 might be a way to pad so the important strip hits 600. This time I point out that 599 is a double strip for no really good reason, which also makes it a possible way to position 600. That the two ideas almost totally conflict doesn't seem to bother many around here.

But while we have an idea what 600 will be about, calling it particularly important seems suspect. We might as well label Haley leaving Azure City as important.

[spectralphoenix]

Fly spell. "Oh, hey, Hinjo can fly now and doesn't need to waste time making leaping one-attack charges, not to mention no longer being bunched up on the ground for the fiend's AoE blasts!" Enlarge person, any number of buffs or debuffs to make the front-liner a bigger and bigger threat so V can blast with less notice from a farther distance. V's spellbook isn't ALL direct damage, though the likely low amount of buffs he carries and his strategem in general also point towards his self-centeredness screwing over his competency.

Actually, I'm pretty sure the reason he doesn't have a lot of buffs is because there are two offensive core wizard buffs above 3rd level and one defensive buff (with an expensive material component that V probably did not have,) not counting "mass" versions of low level spells. Buffing wouldn't have been a bad idea before combat, but by the time enough low-level spells had been cast to really make a difference, the devil would have killed everyone twice over. And even if he did cast a significant amount of buffs, a Pit Fiend has Greater Dispel Magic at will at CL 18.

As did Elan - but I don't blame anyone for not anticipating their leaving, only for not utilizing them while they were there. Also, I'm pretty sure Therkla was PC level.

Utilizing them to do what? Until she left, Therkla was tied up. Elan immediately ran over to her. Even if he hadn't, there was no way he could significantly damage the devil on his own, and bard song requires no help from V.

And coordination and cooperation would have minimized that.

How? Unless V had Stoneskin prepared and the material component handy (and the order has another use for diamonds,) there are no significant defensive buffs he could have cast.

However, she has healing and the ability to support.

Yes, but a 9th level Paladin's healing abilities don't really add up to an extra 15th level character when considering whether the party can defeat a 20th level opponent with conventional tactics or not.

He has gotten solidly better, and V has shown the ability to help Elan make good use of his spells before. There is also Inspire Courage to consider. Remember, I didn't say V was incapable, I said he was incompetent; Elan is incapable AND incompetent, though he's rising in both estimations slowly.

And again, my point is that we have two competent 15th level characters, one 15th level character with a duty to use his limited competence to have a partial effect on the world from time to time, a 12th level character, a 9th level character, and a ninja of unknown level who was tied up nearby. This does not equal a full party of 15th level characters. Even if they were a full 15th level party, defeating a Pit Fiend would be a stretch (while the CR system tends to underestimate PCs, these PCs aren't as optimized as most, and certain monsters such as dragons and pit fiends are more powerful than others of their level.) Therefore, V concluded correctly that he'd need to use tactics other than "beat on it with my friends until it dies." He then proceeded to tell Durkon to lower the fiend's saves (AKA coordinate with him) and turn to his best option.

And people were getting hurt, and the Big D has shown the ability to lay a powerful smackdown more than once.

And Pit Fiends, like most powerful Devils, have regeneration and DR against non-silver weapons. Durkon's "Smackdown" wasn't all that effective. Also, see my point above.

At no point did I say or even suggest the high-level characters were irrelevant. That is not the same as saying the low-level ones are irrelevant either. Xykon is epic and can indeed epic-out the hordes of common soldiers, sure, but the OotS can't quite-so-easily do that to the hobgoblin armies. Having every inch of support against those armies helps.

The Order could have been almost as effective if it wasn't for the high level characters opposing them. Suppose V had flown up to 1000 feet and started blasting with Widened spells? ANd Xykon could use exactly the same tactics at a lower level.

[Yoyoyo]

: I think that if the imp believes it can manipulate V, it is sorely mistaken. V is not Kubota. Kubota was a shortsighted vain selfish man. V is, above all things, loyal to his friends, especially to Haley and Roy.

Not to stick up for the Imp, but aren't you selling him a little short (pun intended)? Isn't an Imp's whole role in life to manipulate and survive powerful masters who would kill them without hesitation? Kubota was an easier partner, granted, but V is not unbreakable, especially if Qarr plays on hir loyalty to Haley.

[StarGazer42]

Does it bother anyone else that the ever-eloquent Vaarsuvius says "less restrictions" instead of "fewer restrictions"?
Maybe I'm just a Grammar Nazi...

[TheNovak]

Actually, i believe, since imps can see alignment auras, the imp is seeing someone who is evil, and wants a new master... evil characters can have imps as advanced familiars.

That's assuming V's evil now, of course. Plus, the imp doesn't know Kubota's dead yet, so he's not really in the market for a new master. Plus plus, Kubota was an Aristocrat, not a Wizard or Sorceror, so it's not as if the imp was his familiar; they were just business buddies.

I'm not convinced I'm right, though, considering Rich just used poison on Therkla. Still, I'm gonna go ahead and predict that the imp does something to prevent V from departing.

(Also, I just noticed this; anyone else laugh at the Palin joke?)

[Yoyoyo]

I think Imp's have an at will detect good, but can't see alignment auras. If V's some form of neutral (chaotic or true), which s/he appears to be, then Qarr won't rule out working with her on a good alignment basis.

[Red XIV]

Woo! Go V! I actually do agree with the fact that the other OotS members that were with him on the ship weren't exactly helping to find Haley. Elan became Hinjo's bodyguard, while Durkon was basically the only cleric aboard the fleet.

What exactly could they do? They're not the ones with scrying abilities, after all.

At the very least its 10s of thousands of gold worth of treasure towards the "True Resurrection Of Roy" fund.

IIRC, Haley's looting of Grubwiggler's castle already brought in more than enough to pay for a True Resurrection. The problem is finding a 17th-level cleric, which seem to be in rather short supply in the OotS-verse. There's a decent chance that Redcloak is 17th-level, but that's not particularly helpful to Roy.

[RosesOnConcrete]

Good comic, bad omen. It feels like the Order's never gonna get back together again, at this rate. :(

[Stryyder]

My theory is that V will become a Baelnorn....

Lich vs. Baelnorn climatic ending on the way?

[spectralphoenix]

What exactly could they do? They're not the ones with scrying abilities, after all.

Clerics get Scrying, some other handy divinations, and the ability to research spells of their own. Elan could do something other than threaten to tell on V because V was brusque about the death of one of Elan's romantic subplots.

[Ted The Bug]

I scanned and rescanned V's words for an important 4-word phrase. Nothing.
Strip 600 better come fast.

[Eben]

Let's not forget that V has more strings to the world than just the order.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0223.html

I have to wonder what he/she is going to have to do with this... mess.
The giant would not have introduced him/her without a reason.

[Kdansky]

I don't like the current development. I am much too fond of V to see this happen :(

If this continues, OOTS might lose it's spot as my most beloved comic. Just because currently, I'm cringing everytime I read it, instead of breaking out in laughter every couple panels. :( :( :(

[Arkenputtyknife]

V definitely is NOT neutral evil; he may seem selfish to Durkon, but actually I think V is the exact opposite of selfish.

While I'm no expert on D&D, I'm pretty sure that selfless/selfish lies on the good/evil axis, not the law/chaos axis.

[holywhippet]

1) Anyone else notice the mistake in the last 3 panels? The imp is still wounded. But imps recover 2 HP per round from their fast healing ability. He should have been back to full health by now.

2) Does V technically still have a familiar? It refused to help cover Vs escape during the battle for Azure city.

3) I'm very curious as to where V is heading off to. Two strong possibilities are his/her former master and his/her spouse. I think the Giant said the latter would appear in the comic at some point - maybe they can talk some reason into V.

[malakim2099]

This idea was dubious when it was first suggested, and now is simply not on the table. The "4 words" are 2 spells, which are merely written as 4 words for convenience, not 4 words for actual hearing. Nor were they said to Kubota.

But in the context of the comic, they ARE four words. And the target of the spells was Kubota (and well, the Kubota-dust afterwards). It is good to know that you have access to the Giant's inner thoughts, since you can so easily blast opinions not your own as simply "not possible" and pronounce your own thoughts as Undeniable Fact.

A great many of us would deny this was the right time, and "wrong reasons" normally means reasons you would feel were unimportant under the circumstances when you look back, not factors you already knew.

This is from V's perspective, however. To him, disintegrating Kubota has no significant importance, as he is (or rather, his player is) metagaming to a rather large extreme. He doesn't know, nor does he particularly care that Kubota was anything other than an obstacle to be eliminated in favor of progressing the overall plot.

It also set into motion a chain of events that led to him 1) leaving the Order of the Stick (or at least this half of it) and 2) being possibly/probably tempted by Qarr to "help" which 3) could lead to him being tempted by Ultimate Arcane Power. Of course, the Giant could always throw a curve ball... it isn't like it hasn't happened before.

At last report, Qarr had no knowledge of the gates and is a LE devil while Sabine is apparently a CE demon, who at least reports to a different boss. Of course our heros have babbled about the gates at times, and Qarr may have been listening, but much of Kubota's behavior would be absurd if he was advised by an imp who knew about the gates.

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Qarr could well have been working with Kubota to take over Azure City in the first place, so that he could get access to the Sapphire Gate. The various evil deities do know about the Gates, so it is not inconceivable that Qarr has some knowledge as well.

Additionally, it's never been established that Sabine was a demon or devil, as that's been a running gag almost as long as V's gender.

[Red XIV]

Additionally, it's never been established that Sabine was a demon or devil, as that's been a running gag almost as long as V's gender.

Haley doesn't know whether Sabine is a demon or a devil. The evidence available to us readers (which includes scenes where Haley isn't present) makes it more likely that Sabine is a succubus (demon) than an erinyes (devil). Some of the stuff that Haley herself has seen probably ought to lead to that conclusion, but Haley might simply not know much about the difference between demons and devils, beyond what metals they're vulnerable to.

[Martok]

As Elan would say, "DUN DUN DUNN!!"

Tongue-in-cheek aside, however, this is definitely worrying. What will become of V??


Also, kudos to Elan on letting V go. Probably one of the smarter decisions he's made.

[FelixZ]

Because V would blast him?

A more pressing question is: If V hasn't tranced, how is she able to cast spells?

[Stryyder]

Because V would blast him?

A more pressing question is: If V hasn't tranced, how is she able to cast spells?

I think trance is there versions of sleep whice meditating is what is required for memorizing spells...

[Sequinox]

Noooooooooo! Why did you leave, V? Apart from all the obvious reasons? You were my favorite character... Now where has your awesomeness gone?

I still like the comic and all but I'm kinda disappointed. Still, I'm glad that we're gonna see more of Belkar and Haley soon. I hope.

[Tobimaro]

I understand V's desire to locate Haley (and Roy), but V really needs to look at what's happening in the real world. But I do agree with V on the fact that Durkon and Elan need to get of their butts and begin to bring the OotS back together.

[Moran]

I can only say : WOOOOF! This is thick!