Erfworld, the battle for Gobwin Knob, page 114/126

[Cybaster]

I think Parson's primary concern when talking to Jack was keeping Stanley alive, secondarily making sure he doesn't end the turn early, and his tertiary concern would be having a major combatant to help repel the attackers.

His primary goal can be accomplished whether or not Stanley can make it all the way back to GK this turn.

It's unlikely (because if Stanley dies, Parson auto-loses and the story ends unless there is some way Parson can instantly inherit Stanley's position after Stanley croaks), but Jack could've instead coaxed Stanley to move away from Jillian --- but not to escape. Rather, he might've wanted to get Jillian out of range before pulling an Athrun Zala and self-destructing himself, taking Stanley with him.

After all, Jillian at least seemed pretty confident at one point that Jack was going to turn against Stanley.

[Laurentio II]

We don't know enough about how mounts work (or for that matter how the 'hammer works) to determine whether or not he can make use of each pool in it's entirety. It may be that using a certain portion of a mount's move uses a proportionate amount of the mounted unit's move. Otherwise, you could end up with a 'pony express' instant transport exploit.

Parson used the "pony express" maneuver to cycle the same three warlords on different stacks of dwagons (the "Donut of Doom").
This double as "Pony Express maneuver" and "probably leadership stacks".

[Godskook]

If you look behind Vinny when he's talking to the Don You can see that there are skirt-wearing humanoids hovering with Jillian's forces. We have only seen one skirt-wearing flying humanoid unit so far, and that is a dance-fight prepped archon. If you count, there are about 10 of them.

My point was that additional Transylvito units are not mentioned in the plan until that point, which is the full length of the coalition's turn after the plan is mentioned in 103, and is also after wanda croaks a bunch of the coalition's portion of the plan. Between 103 and 111, I believe that those Transylvito warlord weren't part of the plan until 111. That is why Don needed to have the plan explained to him, despite Ansom saying at turn start(103, panel 9) that "Charlie and Don King have been apprised of this plan".

We don't know enough about how mounts work (or for that matter how the 'hammer works) to determine whether or not he can make use of each pool in it's entirety. It may be that using a certain portion of a mount's move uses a proportionate amount of the mounted unit's move. Otherwise, you could end up with a 'pony express' instant transport exploit.

Agreed. Most games I play, the cost of mounting/dismounting uses up all of a unit's move. Although in Fire Emblem games, which uses a similar mechanic, you can get a 'pony express' system going, but it is normally not worth it to pull off.

[fendrin]

After all, Jillian at least seemed pretty confident at one point that Jack was going to turn against Stanley.

Just like she was confident that Wanda would turn. Jillian has repeatedly shown that her mind is nowhere near as sharp as her blade.

Parson used the "pony express" maneuver to cycle the same three warlords on different stacks of dwagons (the "Donut of Doom").
This double as "Pony Express maneuver" and "probably leadership stacks".

My understanding was that swapping out the mounts was to keep the mounts from dying, not to get additional move. Panel two of this page implies that fairly strongly.

My point was that additional Transylvito units are not mentioned in the plan until that point, which is the full length of the coalition's turn after the plan is mentioned in 103, and is also after wanda croaks a bunch of the coalition's portion of the plan. Between 103 and 111, I believe that those Transylvito warlord weren't part of the plan until 111. That is why Don needed to have the plan explained to him, despite Ansom saying at turn start(103, panel 9) that "Charlie and Don King have been apprised of this plan".

I suppose that the Don and Vinny could be altering the plan, but why? It's more likely that they are either following it completely or simply filling in details that were not part of the original conception of the plan.

[Godskook]

I suppose that the Don and Vinny could be altering the plan, but why?

Why.

That strikes me as sufficient unplanned reason for needing more troops.

It's more likely that they are either following it completely or simply filling in details that were not part of the original conception of the plan.

For me, if that were part of the original plan, I would have expected Ansom to say so when he said the plan, especially since the rendezvous with additional Transylvito forces only happens on Transylvito's turn, and is therefore an entire step in the plan that Ansom would've have 'skipped' in his telling, something I doubt he'd do, character-wise.

[headhoncho]

That's the definition of "asspull". I agree that language is evolving, so maybe that definition will emerge, but at the moment there is a strong front opposing this specific change. Only time will declare a winner (by that time, I'll probably be senile and uncaring).

Argue it with Merriam-Webster and dictionary.com, pal, not me, because you're just flatly wrong.

http://dictionary.reference.com/brow...20ex%20machina

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dicti...20ex%20machina

The honorable thing to do right now would probably be to apologize. ;)

[gooddragon1]

What an awesome spell activation word: crypsis. Just awesome.

[Earendill]

Theory - Jack did not act out of loyalty - he acted out of guilt. Just like Wanda did when confronted to Jillian.

Wanda and Jack are the artisans of the fall of FAQ to Stanley. Jillian ignores that - she assumes that the "Caster was captured, obviously" but there is no proof of that. We know that there had to be a major failure of the foolamancer for FAQ to be discovered - how about treason?

Maybe it was guilt that helped push Jack into madness (besides the link issues).

Now, Jack does not want to face Jilian and tell her the truth so he decides to run away.

[fendrin]

Why.

That strikes me as sufficient unplanned reason for needing more troops

I concede your point. There is definitely sufficient reason to seek out additional forces.

It strikes me as odd though, that the Don would consider Cesare to be the equal of 10ish archons and two of his other warlords. This leads me to one of two possible points.

1) The Don is neither tactically competent or listening to tactically competent advisors.

-or-

2) Transylvito could not spare any more resources to the attack.

I think #2 is more likely, and it has a more interesting effect on the story. Basically, Transylvito is ripe for the plundering... perhaps we will see Vinny the Barbarian in part 2?

For me, if that were part of the original plan, I would have expected Ansom to say so when he said the plan, especially since the rendezvous with additional Transylvito forces only happens on Transylvito's turn, and is therefore an entire step in the plan that Ansom would've have 'skipped' in his telling, something I doubt he'd do, character-wise.

Based purely on character, I agree with you. However, he has already delegated most of the planning to Jillian; he allocated coalition troops to her command and arranged the alliance-switching exploit. Beyond that he seems to have left all of the planning in Jillian's hands.

As previously pointed out, Jillian really isn't good at anything other than squad-level and personal combat.

[teratorn]

After all, Jillian at least seemed pretty confident at one point that Jack was going to turn against Stanley.

Jillian is not a good judge of character. She tried twice to have Wanda leave Stanley and everytime she got a beating. She should know by now, Faq units didn't love her, they loved to beat her up...

[Godskook]

It strikes me as odd though, that the Don would consider Cesare to be the equal of 10ish archons and two of his other warlords. This leads me to one of two possible points.

In my perspective, assuming none of the later changes to the plan, Vinny was to be the only Transylvito warlord there to stop Stanley.

Counting heads in panels 9/11(behind Stanley) and 10(in front of Stanley) I see 13* warlord-ish units, and that works just as well with the canon as other speculations:

Vinny asked for 10 generic warlords. Don sends 10 generic warlords, but also sends Ceaser. This adds to Vinny's surprise as to why Ceaser shows up. Many readers are already speculating that Vinny can't count, or he is possibly not counting Jillian(and forgetting to count oneself happens so often that it is embarrassing to mankind or in this case, Transylvito kind).

*Note, I was expecting to only see 12 warlords there, so that 13th was a little bit of a surprise to me.

2) Transylvito could not spare any more resources to the attack.

I think #2 is more likely, and it has a more interesting effect on the story. Basically, Transylvito is ripe for the plundering... perhaps we will see Vinny the Barbarian in part 2?

While I don't think that Transylvito is out of resources(10-12 warlords and only some-odd hundred doombats were committed to this, compared to Jetstone's literal thousands in the coalition), I also suspect that a 'weak' Transylvito will come into play later in the story.

[Lamech]

It strikes me as odd though, that the Don would consider Cesare to be the equal of 10ish archons and two of his other warlords. This leads me to one of two possible points.

1) The Don is neither tactically competent or listening to tactically competent advisors.

-or-

2) Transylvito could not spare any more resources to the attack.

I think #2 is more likely, and it has a more interesting effect on the story. Basically, Transylvito is ripe for the plundering... perhaps we will see Vinny the Barbarian in part 2?

Or 3) Those were the only units in range, except perhaps casters or overlord gaurds.

Or 4) The plan would have worked if not for an AoE that wiped out Ceaser's stack, or the caster that hid Stanley.

I agree with those who say Jillian can't judge people and doesn't know what happened in FAQ totally.

[DevilDan]

I definitely agree that the Transylvitian warlords and bats were the only units that could make it to that hex in time that could attack air units. And, absent an actual map, that's the easiest explanation.

[Oslecamo]

I also suport that theory. We've already seen several times in the comic that ground units seem to have a much less movement than air units.

Plus, it's mountain terrain, and it probably implies heavy penalties to ground troops movement anyway.

The Don surely didn't rise to power by being stupid. He wouldn't leave his base defenseless just to possibly intercept the enemy leader. Specially when said leader has an artifact and a lot of angry dragons.

[Welf]

It strikes me as odd though, that the Don would consider Cesare to be the equal of 10ish archons and two of his other warlords. This leads me to one of two possible points.

1) The Don is neither tactically competent or listening to tactically competent advisors.

-or-

2) Transylvito could not spare any more resources to the attack.

Ceasar and two more warlords aren't the equal of 10 archons, but it could be close. Ceasar gives a leadership bonus to every unit in the hex, making the warlords probably 30-50% (or whatever) stronger. Instead of 1 warlord + 1 archon he they have 1 1/2 warlords. And the bats as advanced infantry/ heavy infantry instead of basic infantery.

[fendrin]

The Don surely didn't rise to power by being stupid. He wouldn't leave his base defenseless just to possibly intercept the enemy leader. Specially when said leader has an artifact and a lot of angry dragons.

No, he rose to power by being popped to be in power. He didn't leave his capital defenseless, but he is probably at the minimum # of warlords at home that he feels comfortable with.

As for the argument about distance, we know that Transylvito is very close to FAQ and unless the Don is waging another war nearby, Cesare was probably at the TV capital. If he was there then the other warlords who went to join Vinny were probably there too. It is doubtful then that distance was an issue.

Considering that the TV warlords and primary unit (doombats) all fly, I am doubtful that TV has many ground-only troops. Those it does have would probably all be purely for defensive or non-military use (i.e. miners).

[Krelon]

Bats won't help find veiled units- remember that Ansom may well have charged into the center of the dwagon donut (a hex that a bat had seen as 'empty') because he thought that the wounded dwagons were veiled in there. In addition, I don't think Caesar would have been so furious about hearing of Stanley's possession of a Foolamancer if bats would help find a veiled stack- remember, they had hundreds of those! It'd seem that only warlords have a chance of seeing through veils, barring any heretofor unseen abilities of other units.

Yes, also before going for Stanley, the talk was that several warlords means several chances to pierce a veil.

A bit disappointed again by how weak the Dwagons are.

Yes, me too. The may be outnumbered but there is not much I see coming from them (unlike when they toasted the siege).

Maybe that's no longer that important - without Stanley in their stack, the Dwagons and Knights are liable to get chewed up and no longer be a viable force to relieve Gobwin Knob. Stanley might as well head off towards Faq...

Indeed it looks like the entire dwagon squad just vanished while the Transsylvito forces remain mostly intact. Bad news for Parson. The Tool has only few options I think. Without a mount but with a cloaking-device-mancer he can slowly and unseen return to GK. Perhaps this way he stays out of the picture until the whole battle is over. (If he can move around, not only go up/down with his hammer)

I doubt he will rebuild a whole city when he is alone and outnumbered.

[DevilDan]

We may not see any more dragons, but there could be plenty of them left--which also means that speculating about how far Stanley can ride the hammer or how fast he can go is pointless at this stage. The whole thrust of the Transylvito strategy was to bust their way into forcing a confrontation between Caesar and Stanley, with Jill as a backup. (Which provides another reason why you should stop complaining that dragons are too weak: she was in all likelihood the second toughest unit on the Alliance side.)

[brob]

So... I'm wondering if the veil extends to any other surviving units, and looking forward to hearing the real backstory of the fall of FAQ.*

* My own unlikely theory -- and thanks for asking -- is that the philosopher king came to distrust or dislike the existing idea of "royalty" and hatched a plan with the casters and the tool that's still playing out. No textual basis for this, mind. Just thought I'd share.

[lamguin]

A few things I'd like to note.

1. Transylvito's end of the plan changed when Charlie made them an offer that they couldn't accept. That's why there are more warlords than were previously supposed to be.

2. The dwagons aren't weak. They're beat to boop. It comes as no surprise that when Jillian finally got her chance at Stanley's mount, she was able to do it in.

3. The question of why Transylvito only sends bats and warlords is easily answered. Mountains. Movement. Plot. Mountains are highly difficult terrain for any unit that can't fly (and I assume that there are some units who can move through mountains as normal, but I don't think we've seen them yet). Movement is a problem because we don't know exactly how close Transylvito is to the ambush site. Those warlords and those bats may have been the only ones capable of reaching. Plot is, as always, the driving force. If the odds are nearly even, there's more tension built up over who will make it through and who won't.

4. Caesar. His name is spelled Caesar.

[small pumpkin m]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0084.html
On the bottom. Parson is a level 2, special chief warlord.

Also, from here we know Parson's leadership bonus is also 2.

Which implies that leasdership = level, but it's not clear. On the other hand, we don't know that Jillian is level 9, just that she is a 9, Webinar is a 5 and Dora is a 2. Whether those numbers are level, leadership bonus, or both is unclear.

Yes, the fact that it's not explained implies to me that there is only one important number here. I could be wrong, but whatever that number means, the point of "Caesar's bonuses' are going to be higher than Parsons'" stands.

[teratorn]

Which provides another reason why you should stop complaining that dragons are too weak: she was in all likelihood the second toughest unit on the Alliance side.

To stop we'd need Parson giving us the odds for the thing with archons, without the archons, and with Caeser. From Vinny's words I guess they had 100% chances with the archons (probably way above overkill).

Parson didn't seem very worried about Stanley, meaning he assumed the other side could not get enough power to beat 30 dwagons. On the other hand he didn't know much about Tansylvito fighting style. These guys (we had a few glimpses with Vinny) seem quite good tactic wise, likely on par with Parson.

[Welf]

These guys (we had a few glimpses with Vinny) seem quite good tactic wise, likely on par with Parson.

Even the Tool is probably better on tactics at the moment. Parsons is still mainly a strategic genius.

[Ubiq]

With archons and transylvito warlords, Vinny estimates the battle as "Fugeddaboutit, Don. We're gonna dance on his little square head." Where as, without Archons and with Ceasar, Vinny estimates that "Still, it'll be tight" Going from easy win to slightly possible is a definitive loss, according to Vinny.

If you'll notice, the original plan as envisioned by Vinny only shows Archon-Warlord combos killing off the dwagons. Seeing as how the altered plan was for Caesar to attack Stanley directly while everybody else simply screens the attempt, it may be that the original plan was simply to avoid engaging Stanley himself in favor of killing his mounts and letting The Tool fall to his death. As we see in the latest comic, Jillian adopts that plan herself when Caesar is Van De Graaffed. Considering how much she hates Stanley and her basic personality, it seems odd that she would deliberately choose not to attack him directly if she had the opportunity. Unless she doesn't think she can win against him, in which case it makes a lot more sense.

So the revision from easy win to close thing would seem largely based on the fact that one plan requires fighting Stanley directly while the other allows you to sidestep the issue. There's reasonable cause to believe that The Tool may well be the single most powerful unit in Erfworld, which isn't something that I really would have thought about being the case prior to the last two comics.

[ChowGuy]

So... I'm wondering if the veil extends to any other surviving units, and looking forward to hearing the real backstory of the fall of FAQ.*

Anyone's guess. We know the a foolamancer cannot veil at a distance but "must be in the stack" being veiled. That implies he can, and normally would, veil any units stacked with Stanley. Unless Stanley is a total tactical dork (and it doesn't seem likely) he'd have stacked had at least as many Dwagons in his "personal stack" as his extra bonus can cover, just as Caesar had a "personal stack" of bats that were "more like heavies" because of it.

On the other hand, Jack is a master class foolamancer, able to veil entire cities, so it's not unreasonable to think he can in fact veil all units in his hex. If so, while Stanley remains in the same hex they all still retain his Leadership bonus, and this fight needn't be over yet. If Caesar is alive, but stunned/low on HP as some speculate, he rather then escape should be Stanley's priority as croaking him tips the balance of power. If not, the balance has already tipped, and it's the Transylvito forces that should be thinking of bugging out.

Stanley running from the scene now just leaves a large force behind, ready to recover, pursue and attack on their next turn. Bad tactics if he has a chance of winning, and his ego always makes him assume that. But he's also "a rat" who's run out before, so who knows?

[Oslecamo]

Considering that the TV warlords and primary unit (doombats) all fly, I am doubtful that TV has many ground-only troops. Those it does have would probably all be purely for defensive or non-military use (i.e. miners).

We've already seen that there are units that don't have movement and are garrison only. Probably every base has some of those to make sure the city is always defended.

Also, I now remember this comic:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0116.html

It shows that Ceasar was already there waiting for them before they knew the archons weren't coming.

So I believe this shows that there wasn't a second wave of TV reinforcments.

The Don sent 10 walords(Caesar included) just as asked, and the doomats went with them becauce it seems every vampire worth it's salt doesn't go anywhere whitout several dozen bats trailing him.

When they discovered the archons weren't coming, they tried to do their best with what they had left there.

[teratorn]

Unless Stanley is a total tactical dork (and it doesn't seem likely) he'd have stacked had at least as many Dwagons in his "personal stack" as his extra bonus can cover, just as Caesar had a "personal stack" of bats that were "more like heavies" because of it.

There is some confusion here on the way the bonus is being used in this fight.

Let's say the tool gives an extra 20 bonus to the units in his stack (besides the bonus for being in the same hex). Let's say that Caeser only adds an extra 10 for being in the same stack. Each dwagon in Stanley's stack gets those extra 20, but the 20 extra bats Caeser could squeeze in the stack would get 10 each, that is their joint bonus would be 5 times higher than the one the dwagon gets.

Caeser had to block all the dwagons with enough force so they could not help Stanley, and the intelligent thing on Stanley's side would be to split those dwagons into one unit sized stacks. By breaking his dwagons into stacks the tool forced TV warlords and bats to break also (hence they only get Caeser's bonus once). Bonus-wise is way better for a dwagon not being in the same stack as Stanley if that means not having Caeser in the opposing stack.

People are claiming the dwagons are weak but given the bonus system, each of those bat clouds probably has more attacking power than a dwagon. Since those bats are probably quite low on hitpoints the advantage goes away quite fast. But all the damage they make before being gobbled may be enough to put the warlords on par with most of the dwagons.

Stanley running from the scene now just leaves a large force behind, ready to recover, pursue and attack on their next turn. Bad tactics if he has a chance of winning, and his ego always makes him assume that. But he's also "a rat" who's run out before, so who knows?

But unless Transylvito's side has lookamancers the tool can simply hide. They knew he had to take this path, but next turn they'll have to cover hundreds of hexes in their search for a veiled stack.

[djharr]

What happens next?

1) FAQ is reachable by air and by tunnel. It would not be inconceivable that the two routes are near each other.

2) Stanley, as someone pointed out, still has both the Arkenhammer's flying move and his own inherent move left, since he was riding on a dragon.

3) We know that Parson wants some more time to implement Phase 2.

My prediction:

Stanley goes to ground near the opening to the tunnels to FAQ, then walks to the city this turn. The time to walk to the city gives Parson his much needed time to complete his nefarious plan.

[Krelon]

What happens next?
[...]
My prediction:

Stanley goes to ground near the opening to the tunnels to FAQ, then walks to the city this turn. The time to walk to the city gives Parson his much needed time to complete his nefarious plan.

The problem with that is: He would be alone vs. Transsylvito+Jill.
No more raising FAQ I'm afraid.

[Lamech]

Whats with the assumption that the dwagons are all lost? To deal with Stanley's dwagon it took an extremely powerful warlord, and a lot of support units. Translovitio is out numbered three to one for warlords and dwagons. And they just lost the chief warlord bonus.