Erfworld 127 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 115

[The Rose Dragon]

Stanley has no heir. Therefore, if he dies or starts a new side, I do believe his old side would go neutral.

Of course, it might also be that he can't start a new side unless he's a barbarian first.

[kreszantas]

Stanley has no heir. Therefore, if he dies or starts a new side, I do believe his old side would go neutral.

Of course, it might also be that he can't start a new side unless he's a barbarian first.

Yes this goes within the plot as we know it Stanley went under the assumption that GK will fall and he would been 'neutral' already so he would be in FAQ as a new side.

Parson is actually putting a crimp in that theory by attacking this turn and getting rid of the army in the tunnels; together with Ansom waiting last turn caused another issue to Stanley's 'plan' on top of it you have Charlie and his Archons, not to mention Jillian, Vinny and the rest of the batty side. So there is a big caulderon of jumbalya all getting stirred up because of Stanley.

[tuxgeo]

Now I realize that after the Tool beats Caesar, there was indeed an unengaged bat swarm just by the side of the dwagon! The whole fight of comic 126 was an illusion! Notice the dwagon now doesn't even have the armor crunched like in 126.

<snip>

As for the illusion ending when they exited the hex, it was probably because there was no use to keep it going, and it probably would drain

Now the big question is: how much of the dwagons fighting in the hex are nothing more than illusions and the bulk of the force actually sneaked out just under Jillian and Vinnie's eyes?

<snip>

That is the big question in my mind: how much more illusion is present? If Jack could veil an entire city, how much more Foolamancy was going on?
Critical point: how far does a Ruler's or Overlord's Leadership bonus extend? We know that Parson's Leadership bonus applies to all of Gobwin Knob (that's how Stanley knew that Parson's bonus was only 2), and that Chief Warlord Caesar Borgata's Leadership bonus applied to the entire hex in the pass (see erf0125); would Stanley's Overlord Leadership bonus apply to less than the entire hex? Could it?
If Stanley could only withdraw his Leadership bonus from the remaining dwagons in the stack by physically leaving the hex (instead of by "abandoning his stack"), then he must have left the hex in or before Panel 1 -- and the entire mob-of-bats-turning-into-a-dwagon-as-it-leaves-the-hex visual effect was just another Foolamancy.

[Kyouhen]

That is the big question in my mind: how much more illusion is present? If Jack could veil an entire city, how much more Foolamancy was going on?
Critical point: how far does a Ruler's or Overlord's Leadership bonus extend? We know that Parson's Leadership bonus applies to all of Gobwin Knob (that's how Stanley knew that Parson's bonus was only 2), and that Chief Warlord Caesar Borgata's Leadership bonus applied to the entire hex in the pass (see erf0125); would Stanley's Overlord Leadership bonus apply to less than the entire hex? Could it?
If Stanley could only withdraw his Leadership bonus from the remaining dwagons in the stack by physically leaving the hex (instead of by "abandoning his stack"), then he must have left the hex in or before Panel 1 -- and the entire mob-of-bats-turning-into-a-dwagon-as-it-leaves-the-hex visual effect was just another Foolamancy.

Remember that a city likely only covers one hex anyway, which would still mean Jack was in the hex when he veiled a city.

As for Stanley's leadership bonus, they probably meant that the dwagons in his stack had lost it. We already know that units in a stack get the full bonus, and they never said that they thought Stanley had left the hex, only that he had left his stack and being a small unit it would be extremely difficult to find him when veiled. So yeah, I think they meant it more as a "His personal stack isn't as strong as it was a minute ago, so he must have left it" situation.

[DevilDan]

Stanley ONLY needs to start a new side if GK falls, turning him into a barbarian! FFS!!! As far as we know, there is absolutely no reason at all for him to want to start a new side.

If he adds a new city to his side before GK falls, he may even be able to access GK's coffers and maybe even get some hypothetical "multi-city alliance" bonuses or abilities.

[SteveMB]

Stanley ONLY needs to start a new side if GK falls, turning him into a barbarian! FFS!!! As far as we know, there is absolutely no reason at all for him to want to start a new side.

If he adds a new city to his side before GK falls, he may even be able to access GK's coffers and maybe even get some hypothetical "multi-city alliance" bonuses or abilities.

That depends on whether the mechanics of Erfworld allow him to move his capital to a new city while his old capital is still controlled by his side. If he can't, then he'd want GK to fall so that his new hidden city could be established as his capital when he starts a new side.

[DevilDan]

That depends on whether the mechanics of Erfworld allow him to move his capital to a new city while his old capital is still controlled by his side. If he can't, then he'd want GK to fall so that his new hidden city could be established as his capital when he starts a new side.

I won't speculate further, but unless each city can only use the funds that are physically within it, it at least points to one reason why he would want GK to still be standing when (and if) he reaches a Faq city. He will probably be fairly surprised to find that he isn't a barbarian next turn. Hopefully he's now given Parson enough time to do what he needs to do. And Parson bet correctly, persuading Wanda to stay in GK rather than flying off to protect Stanley after he'd taken Charlie out of the equation--at least temporarily.

The important thing to note is that, as far as we know, he doesn't necessarily want to start a new side; he would have to start a new side only if he is made a barbarian by the loss of GK through either destruction or conquest.

[VariaVespasa]

Here. Not only do veils require same hex, but same stack as well. Admittedly, nothing in that strip says anything about a stack moving between two hexes, and what happens to the veil, but as you noted, Caesar seems to think that veiled units can move from hex to hex without dispelling the veil.

Perhaps illusions don't work if nobody is 'fooled'? It would explain the timing of the dispel just as well as anything else.

It says the caster must be in the stack he's veiling, but it seems pretty obvious that the caster can maintain the veil as long as he moves with the stack, or Caesar would have obvious warning of the approach of enemy units as they entered the hex before they could veil. What interests me more is the disguise falling off the dwagon as it leaves the hex. While that could be proof that I'm wrong about veiling, it might also mean that the bat disguise was not a veil per se, but rather a distraction (Previous conversation by Parson used the word "invisible", not "disguised", didnt it, when describing a foolamancers abilities?) and that distractions cannot cross hex boundaries. What interests me more though, is the idea that maybe its a double distraction- First Jack fakes Jillian out by faking the flying Stanley with Hammer thing, and then fakes her away from the fight with a fake bat/dwagon leaving the hex thing. That could either convince their pursuers that they have escaped and there's no point continuing to look for them (as Caesar was doing) thus enabling them to slip out of the hex towards Faq while the enemy goes searching towards GK, OR it could lure the nastiest warlord away from the fighting so Stanley could suddenly reappear and bushwhack the target of his choice, like Caesar forinstance, and get his dwagons back under control to win the fight. Stanley is a strategic boob, but he seems ok on tactical stuff, so he may well be aware that it is Caesars bonus thats making this a contest, and Caesar is already wounded and virtually alone...

Just a thought... The next strip or two will tell, anyway.

[DrunkMonkGar]

I would just like to point out, because it's still being brought up, that Parson said his leadership bonus, as Chief Warlord, applies to all units of his capital, not in his capital. That implies to me that when he was summoned all of Stanley's units got their stats upped by 2.

Vinny talking about Caesar's bonus could be explained as Chief Warlords being able to stack their bonus three times; once for "side", again for personal hex, and finally for personal stack. We already know they can do it twice, and, with the wording in the Klog, it makes sense for them to be able to do it the third (first) time.

Sorry if this has been discussed before, I've missed most of the speculation from the earlier pages.

[Krelon]

Stanley has no heir. Therefore, if he dies or starts a new side, I do believe his old side would go neutral.

Of course, it might also be that he can't start a new side unless he's a barbarian first.

Heh, it would be a nice surprise if Stanley did designate a heir before he croaked. Or maybe the ultimate warlord spell comes with the heir-replacement-option if it is needed to keep on fighting.


About the Chief Warlord bonus .. Ansom had to be in the same hex as the gumps and elves to give them the full bonus, didn't he? Also, it would seem strange that a chief warlord leaving the capital still adds his bonus to all units of the capital but not in his stack, something about that idea doesn't feel right.

[DrunkMonkGar]

Well, I don't think Woodsy Elves are natural allies of Jetstone like Marbits are, so they wouldn't get his Chief Warlord bonus just for Ansom being alive. But, because they are allied, they would get his bonus for being in his hex and again for being in his stack.

I'm not sure what you mean with the second part. Did I word my explanation poorly?

[Angband]

Back to the issue of Maggie and the link, (not entirely sure how that started...) it's obvious that linking has immense physical drain and remember that fatigue is a factor. People are likely not supposed to disturb the casters while they rest so that they will be able to function properly during the next turn.

So I think people have been misinterpreting Maggie's "fatigue" in Comic #93. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the link spell.

At first she acts very nonchalant about discussing thinkamancy all night with Parson. Then she acts quite condescendingly towards Parson (witness the *sigh* in panel 7, and the correction of Mind Control vs Suggestion spells) and describes the backlash that Wanda was suffering from.

And then she makes a mistake. Maggie says that if SHE had cast the suggestion spell on Jillian, she would have arranged the spell that Jillian would have suffered the backlash.

Instantly, Parson (who Maggie has been talking down to as a mental inferior) infers that Maggie did exactly that to Misty and the Foolamancer when she case the Eyemancy link spell.

Maggie's expression in Panel 11 will look very familiar to anyone who has kids. Wide eyes, small mouth, hands behind the back... Maggie has just realized she is busted.

So in panel 12, she says "Fatigue has become a factor" because all of a sudden Maggie doesn't feel like talking all night. I'm guessing it has nothing to do with being tired.

[Charlicat]

Maggie's expression in Panel 11 will look very familiar to anyone who has kids. Wide eyes, small mouth, hands behind the back... Maggie has just realized she is busted.

I completely agree. I also think that part, as well as the off-page interactions during strategery and planning, are what earns him Maggie's respect and her honest desire to help to the best of her ability, rather than hedging.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0116.html

[DevilDan]

So in panel 12, she says "Fatigue has become a factor" because all of a sudden Maggie doesn't feel like talking all night. I'm guessing it has nothing to do with being tired.

I always assumed this: Why else would Parson make that snarky comment in response?

[Kyouhen]

So I think people have been misinterpreting Maggie's "fatigue" in Comic #93. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the link spell.

At first she acts very nonchalant about discussing thinkamancy all night with Parson. Then she acts quite condescendingly towards Parson (witness the *sigh* in panel 7, and the correction of Mind Control vs Suggestion spells) and describes the backlash that Wanda was suffering from.

And then she makes a mistake. Maggie says that if SHE had cast the suggestion spell on Jillian, she would have arranged the spell that Jillian would have suffered the backlash.

Instantly, Parson (who Maggie has been talking down to as a mental inferior) infers that Maggie did exactly that to Misty and the Foolamancer when she case the Eyemancy link spell.

Maggie's expression in Panel 11 will look very familiar to anyone who has kids. Wide eyes, small mouth, hands behind the back... Maggie has just realized she is busted.

So in panel 12, she says "Fatigue has become a factor" because all of a sudden Maggie doesn't feel like talking all night. I'm guessing it has nothing to do with being tired.

Actually I wasn't referring to when Maggie said that fatigue was becoming a factor for her, I thought it was kind of obvious why she said that. What I meant is that she says that sleep helps her function better. So maybe if the members of the link are fatigued it strains it and risks breaking it.

EDIT:
Nevermind, just reread Sizemore's explanation of the link. Doesn't really imply anything in regards to fatigue affecting the link. Maybe it's only dangerous to break the link because Thinkamancers are jerks and will always send the negative effects to the other casters? It would seem reasonable to do that instead of end up letting yourself go insane for a few turns.

[Zone]

Wait-

I didn't get that fatigue thingie when I read the comic >_>

[LaKazam]

Just throwing this up there, I've read the archives, and I just read the small discussion about Stanley's heir.
Perhaps he secretly appointed Wanda as his heir?
If this has been brought up before, please don't burn me alive

[ChowGuy]

Stanley has no heir. Since an heir only matters if you fall, he's convinced he has no need of one as the Titans will never allow that to happen. And even if they did, and their plans do not involve him, whatever plans they have for the rest of GK don't matter to him even if "They're pretty good about that crap." Or to borrow a turn of phrase from another self-obsessed leader, he gives no thought to what happens after "a victory so final that its consequences shall be of no concern to me, being croaked." Either way, I don't see a leader who can only be convinced to spend his treasury on defense because Ansom will take it anyway if he doesn't as willing to go to "great expense" to designate a secret heir.

[headhoncho]

Man, I am dying for an update. Nine days! Not a complaint, just an expression of appreciation (and withdrawal pangs). :)

[teratorn]

Just throwing this up there, I've read the archives, and I just read the small discussion about Stanley's heir.
Perhaps he secretly appointed Wanda as his heir?

Guess what, you're not the first one to suggest that!

If this has been brought up before, please don't burn me alive

FITH

[Godskook]

If this has been brought up before, please don't burn me alive

/me goes looking for the funeral pyre gear that was in storage.

[raphfrk]

It's been clearly established that Wanda doesn't obey parson because she has too - only because she chooses:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0115.html

Technically, given how Leadership scores work, Parson probably couldn't command any of the casters:

OTOH, Parson may have the authority to disband her.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0108.html

He says that you don't "throw away people on your own team". Ofc, that may have meant that he would just ignore her from that point forwards as she was clearly useless.

[ChowGuy]

/me goes looking for the funeral pyre gear that was in storage.

*Lends Godskook Nomex^tm coveralls*

Here. These won't save you, but they'll the make the show longer.

[DevilDan]

It's been clearly established that Wanda doesn't obey parson because she has too - only because she chooses:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0115.html

Technically, given how Leadership scores work, Parson probably couldn't command any of the casters:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0056.html

But he's "special" and all that.

Absent additional information, I would assume that Wanda can only disobey Parson when she thinks that doing so is in the best interests of Stanley. She was going to take her uncroaked air units to protect Stanley until Parson convinced her that Stanley would be safe with Charlie now sitting on the sidelines.

[reignofevil]

I just had a thought. Maybe wanda originally belonged to stanley, was taken in battle by Faq, then stanley went after the city to get his caster back?

[Thydron]

The cast page puts them as different tribes, plus Jillian said that the only combat Faq got involved with was mercenary work for "far off" sides - two or three turns journey from Gobwin Knob to Faq (seemingly less if you know Jillian's shortcuts) doesn't really seem like far off.
But when Jillian says that she recognises Wanda, she does say "a unit that served under Banhammer" rather than "a Faq / Croatan unit":
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0092.html
so maybe Wanda didn't pop in Faq?

[Krelon]

Absent additional information, I would assume that Wanda can only disobey Parson when she thinks that doing so is in the best interests of Stanley. She was going to take her uncroaked air units to protect Stanley until Parson convinced her that Stanley would be safe with Charlie now sitting on the sidelines.

It was Wanda who cast the spell to get Parson, therefore maybe he cannot command her directly. Of course Parson gives orders on behalf the Tool and Wanda must obey the Tool, hence as long as Parson's orders do not contradict Stanley's directly she must go along. As for taking the uncroaked and help Stanley, she thought it was the only chance to increase the odds of his survival and loyalty made her go after him. However Parson made it clear that Stanley should be ok and her help is more valuable at GK. If GK falls the Tool will also lose, hence after protecting his life directly the second best to loyally protect his interests is to help defend GK.

[Dragonath]

How much more patience do Rob and Jami ask of us ? :(

[SteveMB]

The cast page puts them as different tribes, plus Jillian said that the only combat Faq got involved with was mercenary work for "far off" sides - two or three turns journey from Gobwin Knob to Faq (seemingly less if you know Jillian's shortcuts) doesn't really seem like far off.

The cast page says that Jillian "claims no tribe", which isn't the same thing as being a different tribe -- given that she only recently revealed the story of Faq, it probably means that she'd been keeping her old affiliation secret.

[The Rose Dragon]

How much more patience do Rob and Jami ask of us ? :(

Well, we're still waiting, aren't we?