Erfworld 128 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 116

[Maxymiuk]

One thing that comes to mind:

Vinnie isn't with Ansom right now.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

Ansom over extended himself plain and simple. He should have sent a more powerful leader into the tunnels, but he didn't. Instead Webinar didn't have sufficient forces to win the decisive battle against Sizemore's stack. If Webinar had found Sizemore without as many casualties, or was a bit stronger to finish off that last Hard Rock Golem, he would have won. Without Parson's victory in the tunnels, Ansom probably would have no trouble finishing off Parson during his turn.

As for being casters being OP, I disagree. Sizemore was about to keep 1 unit type going for a while, but only by putting himself in harms way. He nearly died to a stack that wasn't even at peak performance. Wanda's little mass uncroaking is only useful because the next few turns may make or break Ansom. If this was out in the open field, Wanda would be at huge risk to capture or croaking while she did her work.

[Olibarro]

Anteros: If you truly believe that Erfworld is suffering from consistent and long-term bad writing (which is what you have said), then you don't have to read it. Clearly, at least a dozen vocal readers here completely disagree with you. We think this is completely consistent, not unexpected, and we are enjoyed the crap out of it.

a) We've seen reference to Wanda uncroaking all available corpses in a hex before (albeit not on this scale).
b) We've been told Wanda is the most powerful of the casters.
c) Members of this forum have predicting something almost exactly like this for months. Not the specifics, but it has certainly been said many times: "...and after the battle, Wanda will uncroak everyone, and we'll double our forces..."
d) While very cool, this is not overpowering, nor will it turn the tide of battle by itself. It's been made clear to us that these are VERY temporary and VERY weak. A good warlord would be able to assess the situation, regroup and simply wait three or four turns until most of them degrade. IF Ansom can keep his coalition together and IF he can be a little patient, he can still take GK with ease. Those are just two very big IFs.

Dues ex Machina usually refers to a solution that comes out of nowhere. This can hardly be said to come out of nowhere if it's been repeatedly predicted based on the info given.

[Eugenitor]

Is there evidence that Erfworld even has a sun?

And yes, Ansom is probably going to mount a full attack and get owned because his allies told him where to cram it. Stanley can't make it home in one turn. He's going to come back right after Charlie makes another offer.... one that Parson might accept.

[Nargrakhan]

One thing that comes to mind:

Vinnie isn't with Ansom right now.

Nor is Jullian... which means the only two people who could probably reason with an emotionally charged Ansom, aren't there to make him see reason.

On a side note: Given that Winbar and Jullian failed to achieve their goals, it makes Ansom look totally unfit to lead.

[DevilDan]

It's ridiculous to assume that the arkenpliers, as a melee weapon, can somehow overcome the sheer numbers of undead forces now manning GK's walls.

In desperate situations, Jack could be used tactically to veil units and hits the coalition in a particularly important spot.

Stanley is subdued because he made it out by the skin of his teeth. I don't know how he'll react to the current status quo in GK, but I doubt he has a specific grudge against any caster.

"Tunnels that lead in lead out".... except that Parson asked Sizemore to collapse the entrances.

We don't know the outcome of Stanley and his dwagons vs. the Archons, especially because the dwagons won't be as damaged as the ones over the lake were and will have an overlord and artifact bonus while the archons won't have Jillian's large bonus.

Parson put the undead on the first row because they're the most expendable and for psychological warfare purposes.

Maximyuk: Excellent point. Vinny's advice was of great value to Ansom, keeping him, for example, from being captured/croaked when Parson baited his trap with Jillian.

[Kyouhen]

He said every time he wins a major battle. If he just won a major battle against you, what makes you think you will have the troops to do such a thing? Or that it would be alone? You uncroak the troops, and send them into conflict in other hexes where other parts of the army are fighting. This isn't happening in a vacuum, and your enemy is going to take away all that mobility with his other forces.

Valid point.

Though sending casters too far from a city would still be a bad idea. If the enemy pulled a move like Parson's hit-and-run it wouldn't even matter if they croaked the caster if they have a few turns to whittle down your troops while you work your way home. Sooner or later they'll be able to reach the caster.

[Kyouhen]

We don't know the outcome of Stanley and his dwagons vs. the Archons, especially because the dwagons won't be as weak as the ones over the lake were and will have an overlord and artifact bonus while the archons won't have Jillian's large bonus.

Do we even know for sure if Charlie would attack the Tool when he returns? He currently has a lovely Mathamancy artifact boxed up in GK, and is expecting to have the Arkenpliers wrapped up in the same box. I don't see why he wouldn't just step aside for a turn so he can add the Arkenhammer to the list of goodies.

[docstrange]

So all of a sudden Wanda is suddenly vastly more powerful than any other caster or unit we've seen, and it's going to be used as a Deus ex Machina? Ok then.

"Hey, I've given you no sign I can do this, and it would have been REALLY useful before during all the battles we lost, but now I can suddenly create thousands upon thousands of units every turn!"

Bad writing.

Unimaginative reading.

Perhaps she has been doing it, but never had so much raw material to work with at once before, because Stanley never managed a battle so well as to trap and croak a thousand enemy.

I'd also imagine that you have to be in posession of the battlefield with the dead bodies on it to raise them: so how could she have created any units after battles they lost?

[DevilDan]

Do we even know for sure if Charlie would attack the Tool when he returns? He currently has a lovely Mathamancy artifact boxed up in GK, and is expecting to have the Arkenpliers wrapped up in the same box. I don't see why he wouldn't just step aside for a turn so he can add the Arkenhammer to the list of goodies.

I didn't say that Charlie would attack, but do we have any reason to believe that Stanley won't attack archons overflying GK?

If Stanley has been really rattled, he may opt to fly in under a Foolamancer veil.

[Kyouhen]

I didn't say that Charlie would attack, but do we have any reason to believe that Stanley won't attack archons overflying GK?

If Stanley has been really rattled, he may opt to fly in under a Foolamancer veil.

Actually that brings a question to mind. Sorry if this has already been discussed, but what ARE Archons? Are they Warlords? Casters? Are they all only able to send Thinkagrams thanks to Charlie's use of the Arkendish?

[DevilDan]

As far as the calling of shenanigans/BS on the mass uncroaking, I'm a bit peeved but certainly not outraged. It's not a game-changer; all Ansom has to do, as has been said multiple times, is wait for the uncroaked units to decay. Wanda can only do this under very specific and even unusual circumstances.

Stanley can almost surely make it back to GK sometime next turn. Hopefully that'll give Parson enough time to continue to set his master plan into effect.

[teratorn]

The big problem with Erf is that almost every major plot point is like a Deus Ex Machina. We have no idea of the rules or boundaries of the setting, so any solution proposed to any problem comes conveniently out of nowhere.

Could people stop using the damn Deus Ex Machina thing? It's tiresome by now the way it's used to classify any small thing a particular reader had not seen coming. It looks like "Wow, I learned this latin expression see me use it."

Out of nowhere? We've been talking about this possibility since tens of strips ago, we didn't know exactly how many units Wanda could uncroak, but I remember that we had raised the possibility that would be the way for Parson to even out the odds.

Besides, it's explained why it's not useful in the field. These guys are weak (at least without the bonus from Wanda), and probably don't even last until the next engagement.

The big thing for me, my hobby horse right now, is the total crushing of the dwagons. Six surviving out of what, 30+ or so? I'll feel fine if Transylvito is similarly crushed (a few warlords and a few dozen bats left), but if they largely skate after what was supposed to be a tough battle, even with their Caesar-from-out-of-nowhere gambit?

Mario probably died since the knight in the blue dwagon is with Stanley. It was probably hard for the dwagons remaining in the hex without Stanley. They had orders to return, but they were forced to engage if the enemy got in contact with them.

Aye. Depends on the planet's rotation and where "magnetic north" is from that prospective.

The thing is, east was defined way before people knew about planetary rotation and what a "magnetic norh is." East is where the Sun rises.

[Arkenputtyknife]

Aye. Depends on the planet's rotation and where "magnetic north" is from that prospective.

The sun rises from the West, and sets in the East on Venus (if you could see the sun that is), because it spins backwards from the rest of the solar system.

Uranus rotates on it's side, and magnetic north is NOT on the top of the globe. It has a magnetic east! The sun rises in the north, and sets in the south on that planet (again, if you could really see the sun).

Whoa, whoa. Magnetic north and geographical north are entirely different things. We use magnetic north because it's conveniently close to geographical north on Earth, and magnetic compasses are simple and handy devices, but our maps are still based on geographical north. For many navigation purposes, magnetic compasses aren't used at all; gyroscopic compasses give the direction to true north and are more accurate, especially in the arctic and antarctic. Ultimately, the actual location of magnetic north (assuming Erf has a magnetic north) is unimportant and not relevant to this discussion.

There's disagreement in the astronomical world over the meanings of north and south; for example:
http://idialstars.com/usd.htm
So is Venus spinning backwards, or is the planet upside down? They're equally valid, but mutually incompatible, views. In the former view, the sun does indeed rise in the west on Venus—but does it really make sense to force Earth's directions onto the surface of another planet? In the case of Uranus, it makes no sense at all ("west pole" is an oxymoron). And what about planets in other galaxies, in other clusters, where the ecliptic itself is at a weird angle? Must we still apply Earth's directions there? It makes as much sense as the idea that all alien races speak English.

On the other hand, if you take the latter view, the definitions of the cardinal directions remain intact: north is the pole from which the fixed stars appear to revolve clockwise, east is the direction from which the sun (or any convenient fixed star) rises. Equivalently, east is on your right when facing north. The sun may not be visible from the actual surface of Venus, but it's possible to rise above the surface until you're high enough to see it. Sunrise on Uranus is still in the east, at least when the poles aren't pointing directly at it.

In the case of Erfworld, we have no idea which way Earth's directions lie relative to it, even if Erf is a planet in the usual sense, and even if it exists within our universe. East west north south can therefore only be defined relative to Erf itself, and all the above discussions using Earth and its ecliptic as some kind of universal standard to define cardinal directions on other planets are void. The directions could be defined in terms of sunrise and sunset, or they could be defined in terms of Erf's hex grid—but the latter requires redefining the words.

I've yet to see anything in the comic to suggest that there is any difference between east as defined by the hex grid and east as defined by the movement of the sun.

[Carne]

The mass uncroaking may not be a particularly good military advantage to the GK side. We're told the resulting uncroaked will be "the weakest kind" if the mass-animate is the quick 'n' dirty kind. That may mean a number of different things, the most immediately obvious being:

- the weakest type of uncroaked possible, which is of arbitrary strength since we don't know just how weak that is, but is assumed to be only a fraction of the initial unit strength;
- the weakest type of *unit* possible, which is at least as weak as the weakest unit we've seen so far (I'd guess individual bats with no bonuses), possibly more.

With Wanda's bonus they might be more formidable, but given it's a mass-animate on Jetstone infantry (expendable) and marbits (more expendable), which I'm thinking aren't terribly strong to begin with, I doubt the resulting uncroaked army is anything close to the strength of the original units.

Also, given they only last a few turns and have been placed in a defensive position (on the walls) they currently only serve as a temporary boost to the city's defenses. Hardly a game changer, but certainly a deterrent.

If we consider their non-military value, Parson remarks that even he doesn't know what the psychological hit to Ansom's side will be to see their tunnel invasion force thoroughly routed and then turned to the enemy's side, especially trusted units such as Webinar. But I'm thinking it's much more valuable than their offensive capability.


My biggest concern over the mass-croaking explanation is that the turn doesn't end within any kind of specific clock time limit. As I understand it, a day has infinite length, and only when a side has made all the moves it wants, and performed all the action it wants and declares their turn over does clock time really advance in any meaningful way. So wouldn't that effectively give Wanda infinite time to uncroak the croaked units, meaning maximum strength? A quick rez is just lazy in that case.

The only way I can see this explanation having any impact would be if (a) uncroaking could be performed over multiple turns (unlikely); (b) it takes spellcasting energy (from a finite "mana" supply, which hasn't been mentioned in the story yet); or (c) casters consume move when casting - a Croakamancer spending all possible move on the uncroak would end up with maximum-strength uncroaked, but would be prevented from casting or moving again that turn. (c) seems the most likely explanation.

[DevilDan]

I just hope everyone who said that only one dwagon made it out after this strip learned a little about the difference between perception and reality.

(That's doubly true with a Foolamancer in the hex. Of course, people claimed that all the dragons were down after this strip too.)

[DevilDan]

My biggest concern over the mass-croaking explanation is that the turn doesn't end within any kind of specific clock time limit. As I understand it, a day has infinite length, and only when a side has made all the moves it wants, and performed all the action it wants and declares their turn over does clock time really advance in any meaningful way. So wouldn't that effectively give Wanda infinite time to uncroak the croaked units, meaning maximum strength? A quick rez is just lazy in that case.

The only way I can see this explanation having any impact would be if (a) uncroaking could be performed over multiple turns (unlikely); (b) it takes spellcasting energy (from a finite "mana" supply, which hasn't been mentioned in the story yet); or (c) casters consume move when casting - a Croakamancer spending all possible move on the uncroak would end up with maximum-strength uncroaked, but would be prevented from casting or moving again that turn. (c) seems the most likely explanation.

Carne, we've seen several mentions of casters having problems with exhaustion or limited spells. Maggie talks about only having the strength for one more thinkagram (and about fatigue in an answer to Parson's questions about rest), Sizemore discusses having enough energy to continue healing his units, etc. It's not a question of time, but of Wanda's stamina. But does it necessarily mean the same as "moves?" I doubt it.

(Some unknown and as yet undiscussed, as you pointed out, "mana" is not an unreasonable mechanism either.)

[teratorn]

TSo wouldn't that effectively give Wanda infinite time to uncroak the croaked units, meaning maximum strength? A quick rez is just lazy in that case.

Maggie get's tired after a few thinkagrams, so there should be something equivalent to Wanda. She can only spend a fixed amount of time (x number of units) uncroaking. I think your analogy with move is quite good.

Your other analogy with bats is also quite good. These guys seem to work essentially through the bonus they get from Parson and from Wanda (I expect them to have more hitpoints though). If Parson were as strong as Caeser GK would be quite safe.

[Gez]

I echo the general consensus on how and why Wanda being able to raise a lot of weak uncroaked units is neither unexpected nor unbalanced. I'd say it's a Chekhov's gun that has just been fired. For having played Heroes of Might & Magic I was expecting no less than that. I'd argue that she wasn't even able to raise most of the available bodies: there were nearly 4000 Jetstone and 2000 Marbit units. Webinar and Dora led the bulk of that, so potentially anywhere between 5000 and 3000. There were no other possible outcomes from Ansom's early assault than this.

A Deus Ex Machina would be if some other force which has never been alluded to before (so, not Charlie, not even Parson's fellow gamers) suddenly barging in and putting an end to the story by forcing an improbably denouement.

Also, lol @ "OMG Wanda's too powerful!": All casters are powerful. Before it was Jack that was deemed the ultimate DXM of overpowered munchkinism because of veiling and distractions... But for now, the caster that actually did the most damage to the enemy is good old Sizemore Rockwell.

One final note...I'm sure someone has mentioned this before, but Charlie was the Army parlance for "enemy" in Vietnam. Does this mean that Charlie won't ally with Parson? If that's the case, what can Parson do?

"Charlie" for the Viet Cong comes from the simple fact that Viet Cong has VC for initials, and that in the NATO phonetic alphabet "VC" is pronounced "Victor Charlie." Calling your enemies "Victor" isn't especially great for morale, so it got shortened to just Charlie. Why not saying Viet Cong? Because people prefer to keep things complicated when they can avoid simplicity.

There are many, many "Charlies" out there -- as already pointed out, it was introduced as a reference to Charlie's Angels. Parson made a crack about expecting Charlie to be a tuna.

[Welf]

Mentioned before, but: Worth waiting

There's a lot of Ansom bashing going on, but he's far away from being incompetent. His plan was really good, he just had some bad luck and a real good opponent. He could have taken GK a turn ago, but he had no reason. If he attacked then he would have lost a lot a troops (nothing compared to now, but still). He had no siege and had to press all of his troops trough the tunnels. And at that time he had an alliance with Charley and good reason to expect the Tool croaked the next turn. And he couldn't expect such a disaster in the tunnels or a world class foolamancer in Tools stack that saves his butt the very last second.

[Wrecan]

Good point. In addition, though Parson has done well, GK suffered major casualties this turn in the form of what appears to be about two dozen dwagons.

Also, Parson's run of good luck may come to a crashing halt when Stanley comes in and starts messing up his strategies.

[Fez]

More accurately there is a difference between city zones and hexes; this is significant in that it still allows for the idea that a city is only a single hex.

I suspected this might be the case and brought it in a spoiler I dunno why, but like many I've been enjoying reverse engineering the rules of the game based on what Jami and Rob show us.

It seems to be a pretty standard hex based wargame, with combat moving to a realtime combat system driven by the leaders. Once combat is over, it goes back to a hex based system. In that regard it reminds me of both japanese RPG, with a top down movement, which breaks out to more interactive combat, or even battle chess. Either way seems more like an electronic wargame, rather than a tabletop one that Parson designed. Hmm.

Btw Jami, I do love the art including our fine zombie Webinar.

Anyone find it interesting they are wearing Parson's colors and not Stanley's? Double hmm. Since when has Parson been a faction?

[Welf]

And just want to add that I love Zombie-Dora. Face, posture, gaze. Love it. Definitive avatar worthy.

[BRC]

I suspected this might be the case and brought it in a spoiler I dunno why, but like many I've been enjoying reverse engineering the rules of the game based on what Jami and Rob show us.

It seems to be a pretty standard hex based wargame, with combat moving to a realtime combat system driven by the leaders. Once combat is over, it goes back to a hex based system. In that regard it reminds me of both japanese RPG, with a top down movement, which breaks out to more interactive combat, or even battle chess. Either way seems more like an electronic wargame, rather than a tabletop one that Parson designed. Hmm.

Btw Jami, I do love the art including our fine zombie Webinar.

Anyone find it interesting they are wearing Parson's colors and not Stanley's? Double hmm. Since when has Parson been a faction?

I think the colors are determined by the chief warlord. Mind you, there is no other evidence to say this, but there is no other evidence against it either. Mind you, only Ansom's troops have been seen wearing armor with an insignia on it (but we also havn't seen anybody else's human infantry).

[Carne]

Carne, we've seen several mentions of casters having problems with exhaustion or limited spells. Maggie talks about only having the strength for one more thinkagram (and about fatigue in an answer to Parson's questions about rest), Sizemore discusses having enough energy to continue healing his units, etc. It's not a question of time, but of Wanda's stamina. But does it necessarily mean the same as "moves?" I doubt it.

(Some unknown and as yet undiscussed, as you pointed out, "mana" is not an unreasonable mechanism either.)

Yeah, the more I think about equating move with action/spellcasting ability the more I don't like it. Bogroll would be pretty much useless if his actions sprang from his move, as would a unit that expends their entire move in a turn.

I dabbled with a theory about units having Energy from which move and action/spellcasting are calculated based on abilities (so flight would be a low energy move action), but then I think there's been a time or two where a unit has expended maximum (or near-maximum) move but still been able to engage in a full battle within a hex (wounded dragon over the lake fight, for instance), so out goes that theory too.

"Mana" seems to be the least complicated explanation... at least for now, until the authors decide to elaborate in some fashion in the future. Which tends to balance the power of casters vs. other unit types, since it appears physical fatigue doesn't have the same kinds of limitations during physical battles that we've seen (fatigue is possibly rolled into hitpoints).

[SteveMB]

And just want to add that I love Zombie-Dora. Face, posture, gaze. Love it. Definitive avatar worthy.

So far, I've worked up an avatar of the pair (added to my main gallery on the Custom Icons & Wallpaper thread):



I did a bit of tweaking to de-emphasize the background (brightening and blurring it just a bit) in order to make the two figures stand out a bit more than in the original artwork.

[WirePaladin]

Wont the return of the tool bring moral back to Ansom's troops? Give them their goal again? The uncroaked are going to affect them sure...but the tool coming back seems like a mixed blessing...doubled edged...

All eggs in one basket?...sure a barbed wire basket but stills a basket

[TheMutant]

Wont the return of the tool bring moral back to Ansom's troops? Give them their goal again? The uncroaked are going to affect them sure...but the tool coming back seems like a mixed blessing...doubled edged...

On the contrary, I think it'd be demoralizing. First off, Stanley was supposed to be croaked by the flier mission, yet here he is, back safe and sound, with a handful of dwagons no less. In addition, Stanley in and of himself is a powerful asset- with his overlord and artifact bonuses, things could get dicey if he leads any assaults.

Because I'm overly curious like that, I wonder how many Knights made it out. The Blue Knight is safe (which could bode ill for the Mario-Warlord he was fighting a few pages back); and with two greens and a yellow and one dwagon of indeterminate color, the Green and Brown Knights could possibly have survived as well (though I'd be surprised if at least one wasn't croaked.)

[Angband]

Actually that brings a question to mind. Sorry if this has already been discussed, but what ARE Archons? Are they Warlords? Casters? Are they all only able to send Thinkagrams thanks to Charlie's use of the Arkendish?

Well, they're Angels. Probably comparable to Dwagons in terms of being extremely potent single units. We know at least one had a name (Jaclyn) so they may count as commanders, but it could be that some are regular archons while others are commander archons.

But they don't seem to be proper casters (i.e. they don't fall into the categories of thinkamancer/dirtamancer/hippiemancer/etc that we've seen). They cast a few spells but have a very limited repertoire. Alternatively, since they described the thinkagram to Jillian as "Charlie's Thinkagram Rates" my guess is that they are attuned to the Arkendish, which allows Charlie to cast Thinkagrams through the Archons eyes, as if he was there himself, instead of the Archons casting any proper spells themselves.

(If Stanley has Dwagons, why doesn't Charlie have "Awchons"?)

[TheMutant]

Well, they're Angels. Probably comparable to Dwagons in terms of being extremely potent single units. We know at least one had a name (Jaclyn) so they may count as commanders, but it could be that some are regular archons while others are commander archons.

That's a possibility, but I felt like pointing out that units with names aren't necessarily commanders- take Henchman Mung and Bogroll.