Erfworld 128 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 116

[DevilDan]

They do not know that. And in point of fact, neither do we. They, and we, mostly have only Jillian's word on that, and Caesar explicitly notes that "nobody in Transylvito believes it."

Though that is what Stanley tells Jack.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0122.html

[SteveMB]

Given how cheap doombats are, why hasn't Transylvito parked a single unled bat in every single hex in the area?

With Transylvito's zerg-rush tactic of using mass quantities of bats buffed with warlord bonuses, each bat taken out of the battle was a small but not totally insignificant sacrifice of combat power. Given that they were up against a large force of dwagons buffed with what is implied to be a very large bonus (Stanley is an Overlord with an attuned Arkentool), every little bit might count.

[DevilDan]

Given how cheap doombats are, why hasn't Transylvito parked a single unled bat in every single hex in the area?

They didn't need to until they confirmed that Stanley has a foolamancer and after he ran from the hex they suspected that he had to cross. They won't be able to move until the next day, after Stanley ends his turn and after the coalition's turn.

Transylvito now has some reason to believe that Faq exists; Ansom has every reason to want that mountain pass hex covered. Up until the point that Jetstone forces were crushed in the tunnels, Ansom would have wanted Stanley in GK. It was his belief that the coalition would easily take GK despite Stanley's dwagons and his overlord and artifact bonuses.

[teratorn]

With Transylvito's zerg-rush tactic of using mass quantities of bats buffed with warlord bonuses, each bat taken out of the battle was a small but not totally insignificant sacrifice of combat power. Given that they were up against a large force of dwagons buffed with what is implied to be a very large bonus (Stanley is an Overlord with an attuned Arkentool), every little bit might count.

Not only that, if Stanley saw bats in the hexes before the narrow path, he would have not rushed in.

[Gez]

They didn't need to until they confirmed that Stanley has a foolamancer and after he ran from the hex they suspected that he had to cross.

Actually, it's pretty clear that only commanders have a chance of seeing veiled units (Vinny: 11 warlords and about 30 units, that's 300 chances of seeing them). So an unled bat would be useless if they expect Stan&Jack's stack to be veiled -- the veiled stack, since it is commanded, can simply choose not to attack, and the bat won't see anything.

[DevilDan]

Not only that, if Stanley saw bats in the hexes before the narrow path, he would have not rushed in.

It's not clear to me whether he had a choice or not to engage the Transylvitian contingent; I assumed that he could always turn and run. Of course, he didn't know then that Jack would recover his faculties, such as they are. (what is the proper demonym anyway? If people from Toronto are Torontonians, then it should perhaps be Transylvitonian. Ugh.)

Actually, it's pretty clear that only commanders have a chance of seeing veiled units (Vinny: 11 warlords and about 30 units, that's 300 chances of seeing them). So an unled bat would be useless if they expect Stan&Jack's stack to be veiled -- the veiled stack, since it is commanded, can simply choose not to attack, and the bat won't see anything.

That's 300 "spot checks," perhaps, but presumably the odds vary from warlord to warlord. They have 300 or so chances; we don't know how good these chances are. Of course, now it's only 6 dragons or so, apparently.

[Sieggy]

Transylvito now has some reason to believe that Faq exists; Ansom has every reason to want that mountain pass hex covered. Up until the point that Jetstone forces were crushed in the tunnels, Ansom would have wanted Stanley in GK. It was his belief that the coalition would easily take GK despite Stanley's dwagons and his overlord and artifact bonuses.

It's doubtful if Ansom really cares at this point, as he's otherwise occupied with chewing the top off his shield . . .. And without Charlie's air cover firmly committed, he'd rather not have dwagons about, I suspect. I still think that next turn, the RCC is going to get swamped from above and below with undead.

A question is, though, can undead casters still cast? I noticed the the first one that Wanda went to raise was Jaclyn . . . And she's had plenty of time to do them up right. Do we have any idea how many of the Archons got taken down? Since Parson won't have to worry about conserving them, Kamikaze casters would make one hell of a force multiplier, especially if they all ganged up on Ansom.

[fendrin]

It's doubtful if Ansom really cares at this point, as he's otherwise occupied with chewing the top off his shield . . .. And without Charlie's air cover firmly committed, he'd rather not have dwagons about, I suspect. I still think that next turn, the RCC is going to get swamped from above and below with undead.

Above would be Wanda's uncroaked airforce, I presume... but below? Parson had Sizemore seal the tunnels.

A question is, though, can undead casters still cast?

No.

I noticed the the first one that Wanda went to raise was Jaclyn . . . And she's had plenty of time to do them up right. Do we have any idea how many of the Archons got taken down?

Just Jaclyn. The other two of the original trio survived, and the swarm had not arrived yet.

Links coming shortly. EDIT: links added.

[DevilDan]

It's doubtful if Ansom really cares at this point, as he's otherwise occupied with chewing the top off his shield . . .. And without Charlie's air cover firmly committed, he'd rather not have dwagons about, I suspect. I still think that next turn, the RCC is going to get swamped from above and below with undead.

I very clearly pointed out that what I described was Ansom's thinking prior to the loss of the tunnels.

Ansom did say that he had four times as many troops as needed even without Charlie, I believe, and when Stanley had something like 46 dwagons. I don't see how dwagons are even close to being his biggest problem now.

A question is, though, can undead casters still cast? I noticed the the first one that Wanda went to raise was Jaclyn . . . And she's had plenty of time to do them up right. Do we have any idea how many of the Archons got taken down? Since Parson won't have to worry about conserving them, Kamikaze casters would make one hell of a force multiplier, especially if they all ganged up on Ansom.

Parson specifically states that uncwoaked, err... uncroaked casters function solely as infantry. (But they apparently keep their inherent magical abilities such as flight.) It hasn't absolutely been established that archons are casters. Their energy attacks could be natural abilities, could be (though unlikely) the direct result of the arkendish, or could be caster spells. We don't know. As far as we know, only one archon was taken down.

EDIT: Late. Boopin' phonecall.

[Sieggy]

Above would be Wanda's uncroaked airforce, I presume... but below? Parson had Sizemore seal the tunnels.


No.

Just Jaclyn. The other two of the original trio survived, and the swarm had not arrived yet.


Links coming shortly. EDIT: links added.

Ah, but those were the tunnels that RCC knew were leading in. Sizemore had plenty of time to dig other tunnels that would lead into the rear of Ansom's forces, flank that road leading up, or under the road itself. Remember, there's only one way up there.
It would just play hell with trying to bring siege equipment up when suddenly the roadbed collapses beneath the lead tower and undead come swarming out. You now have a huge roadblock with a toppled tower, enemy forces mixed in with yours and the siege train all lined up neatly along the road behind it. Think "Highway of Death", with Wanda's air force wreaking havoc. They could lay massed fire and not give a platypus poot about killing their own troops because they're already dead.
Toss in a couple more sally tunnels, completely expendable troops, and you no longer have a battle, you have a George Romero movie.

But then, why did Wanda raise her first? I would think she's go for the most powerful one immediately. If a caster has no other value than casting, Jaclyn would have been ignored in favor of something that can dish out serious damage. And Jaclyn has been seen levitating, which would indicate that some form of magical ability remains.

[SteveMB]

But then, why did Wanda raise her first? I would think she's go for the most powerful one immediately. If a caster has no other value than casting, Jaclyn would have been ignored in favor of something that can dish out serious damage. And Jaclyn has been seen levitating, which would indicate that some form of magical ability remains.

We don't know whether an Archon's energy-blast attack is a spellcaster ability (which would not carry over to an uncroaked unit) or an inherent natural ability of the unit (which at least possibly could carry over -- note that we've seen the uncroaked Jaclyn and unipegataurs flying, so at least some natural abilities remain after uncroaking, at least if it's attention-to-detail individual uncroaking rather than mass uncroaking).

[fendrin]

Ah, but those were the tunnels that RCC knew were leading in. Sizemore had plenty of time to dig other tunnels that would lead into the rear of Ansom's forces, flank that road leading up, or under the road itself. Remember, there's only one way up there.
It would just play hell with trying to bring siege equipment up when suddenly the roadbed collapses beneath the lead tower and undead come swarming out. You now have a huge roadblock with a toppled tower, enemy forces mixed in with yours and the siege train all lined up neatly along the road behind it. Think "Highway of Death", with Wanda's air force wreaking havoc. They could lay massed fire and not give a platypus poot about killing their own troops because they're already dead.
Toss in a couple more sally tunnels, completely expendable troops, and you no longer have a battle, you have a George Romero movie.

While I'm all for the idea of Sizemore collapsing the road (indeed, I made that very suggestion long ago in a galaxy far away), I don't think he's really had as much time as you think to dig new tunnels. Stanley had him spending all his time/magic making crap golems (to the point that Stanley only thought of him as 'the turd guy'), and that was what, two turns ago? In those two turns Sizemore
1) croaked the Marbit scouts (but that might have been a 'defensive' combat on RCC's turn)
2) used up all his magic in combat & sealing the tunnels

So that leaves, at most, 1 turn. Chances are he was preparing for battle (making more golems, laying more traps) in that one turn.

But then, why did Wanda raise her first? I would think she's go for the most powerful one immediately. If a caster has no other value than casting, Jaclyn would have been ignored in favor of something that can dish out serious damage. And Jaclyn has been seen levitating, which would indicate that some form of magical ability remains.

There may not have been an in-story reason to go to Jaclyn first. She may have been the closest. It was also quite possibly done just for it's effect on the readers. We had a chance to get to know & care about Jaclyn, but the UPTs were relatively unknown.

[DevilDan]

Also, Parson very clearly states that flight is a magical ability.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0044.html

Again, Ansom wasn't particularly afraid of 46 dwagons, so his numbers must be such that Wanda's air force simply cannot be a deciding factor (at least if used conventionally). Don't forget that even the overpowered stack (the class A dwagons plus three warlords) would have only, by Vinny's estimate, taken out approximately five or six stacks).

I don't know Ansom's strategy, but it likely doesn't include opening up the tunnels as a front in the near term. He wants that option closed, it seems. And it also seems unlikely that Sizemore can dig as many tunnels as would be needed to make a big dent on the advancing forces or even on the siege.

I see no significance, asides from storytelling purposes, of Wanda putatively animating the archon first.

[Gez]

That's 300 "spot checks," perhaps, but presumably the odds vary from warlord to warlord. They have 300 or so chances; we don't know how good these chances are. Of course, now it's only 6 dragons or so, apparently.

This tangent is quite irrelevant to my point which was that an unled bat x any number of veiled troops, even ten thousand gigabillions, equals a zero spot checks.

So, as I said, putting one unled bat in every square is absolutely useless if expecting a veiled and commanded stack.

[DevilDan]

This tangent is quite irrelevant to my point which was that an unled bat x any number of veiled troops, even ten thousand gigabillions, equals a zero spot checks.

So, as I said, putting one unled bat in every square is absolutely useless if expecting a veiled and commanded stack.

I was just exploring the probability of Stanley being spotted now. I do agree that bats have either zero or a very low chance of seeing past a veil, one reason why Ansom rushed into the hex at the center of the dwagon donut.

[Sieggy]

Hot Boop! Finally got my avatar uploaded . . .

[Carne]

Also, Parson very clearly states that flight is a magical ability.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0044.html

I think you left out a "not" there.

[Units] may also have natural abilities. Some of these include flight, fire, regeneration, poison, and probably a million more I don't know about yet.

(from the Klog, emphasis mine)

I see no significance, asides from storytelling purposes, of Wanda putatively animating the archon first.

I wouldn't be willing to bet on it (since I'm not the type) but I'd say there were good odds that the Archon has some kind of natural ability not just limited to flight that could conceivably come in handy. Whether it's the "energy weapon"-style attack we saw earlier or something else entirely (but which Wanda may apparently be aware of) remains to be seen.

[hidden_agenda]

So all of a sudden Wanda is suddenly vastly more powerful than any other caster or unit we've seen, and it's going to be used as a Deus ex Machina? Ok then.

"Hey, I've given you no sign I can do this, and it would have been REALLY useful before during all the battles we lost, but now I can suddenly create thousands upon thousands of units every turn!"

Bad writing.

I disagree with this conclusion. It depends heavily on the game rules.

For example, a very realistic (and limiting) rule might just be that only the possessor of the battlefield (hex) at the end of the battle might exercise the ability to uncroak units.

Since Stanley has been losing battles (hence not in possession of the battlefield after the fighting is done), Wanda has had limited chance of using her ability.

Uncroaking units could simply be balance against the ability to heal units (which we know that the Coalition possesses but have not seen Stanley with any).

In the real world, this also makes sense. In World War 2, possessors of the battlefield after a major tank battle can often repair and recover large number of tanks. (Many abandoned tanks often only had minor problems such as a broken track or simply out of fuel).

In an abstract sense Wanda's power is no more broken than the above. The limitation of the power of the recovered units and the duration of these units also make sense.

[DevilDan]

Sieggy, I once contemplated a similar scenario to what you suggest, collapsing that winding road in only to buy yourself more time. However, I don't know if that could even be executed while it's not GK's turn. The coalition will take one turn just to get his troops into position around GK's walls; Parson could hit them there, but perhaps not without collapsing his own walls, something that he may not be able to afford. (Partial planned collapses could still play a role, but I think Parson has things in mind that we can barely guess at.)

[BRC]

We don't know whether an Archon's energy-blast attack is a spellcaster ability (which would not carry over to an uncroaked unit) or an inherent natural ability of the unit (which at least possibly could carry over -- note that we've seen the uncroaked Jaclyn and unipegataurs flying, so at least some natural abilities remain after uncroaking, at least if it's attention-to-detail individual uncroaking rather than mass uncroaking).

I think you have to differentiate from what Erfworld classifies as "Spells" and what, say, a normal fantasy novel would classify as a Spell.

Erfworld Spells are specific effects, like a thinkagram, raising some uncroaked, casting a veil. Spells are done by Casters who are there to cast spells. Considering how Caster's are treated, the Archons are not what I would define as Casters. Their attack seems magical, it is what a normal fantasy story would call a spell, but in erf terms it is just an attack like a crossbow or a Dwagon's breath weapon.

[Sieggy]

Sieggy, I once contemplated a similar scenario to what you suggest, collapsing that winding road in only to buy yourself more time. However, I don't know if that could even be executed while it's not GK's turn. The coalition will take one turn just to get his troops into position around GK's walls; Parson could hit them there, but perhaps not without collapsing his own walls, something that he may not be able to afford. (Partial planned collapses could still play a role, but I think Parson has things in mind that we can barely guess at.)

But if it's a trap that they trigger (tunnel out under the road just enough that regular foot / cav won't collapse it, but the weight of a siege tower would), then it happens on THEIR turn, not GKs turn. It doesn't have to be a huge pit, just enough to get a tower to fall over or simply be immobilized. Once you have a bottleneck where the road splits to encircle the walls, the RCC is totally screwed.

The remainder of the RCC turn is then expended / wasted dealing with this. They may have infantry units that can make their way past the blockage, but without siege equipment, all they could do is stand there and look up. In the meantime, unless orders to the contrary are given, the siege train continues on, so you have a long and winding target that has no place to go other than forward.

When the GK turn comes around once more, it has before it essentially a prone & motionless enemy, that can't go forward and can't go back, trapped on a road where their only defense from air power is bowfire.

And all Parson has to do is stop the lead tower at the chokepoint. When I first saw the picture of GK, and knew what Sizemore was capable of, I sure knew how I would stop attackers . . .

[DevilDan]

And all Parson has to do is stop the lead tower at the chokepoint. When I first saw the picture of GK, and knew what Sizemore was capable of, I sure knew how I would stop attackers . . .

You may well be right; but if they are stuck and fear further mining attacks then all they need to do is back out. This is the sort of traditional tactic that Ansom would plan for, though.

[Sieggy]

You may well be right; but if they are stuck and fear further mining attacks then all they need to do is back out. This is the sort of traditional tactic that Ansom would plan for, though.

Anyplace other than GK, you would be right. But in this case, that's a problem. Look at the road leading up to it, and consider the size of the train and equipment the RCC is bringing up along it. (I don't know yet how to embed pages, but pp 97, 100, 105) Ever try to get a truck turned around on a narrow road? Imagine trying to get an entire army turned around on one . . . Especially if it has been proceeding forward and has gotten congested. I can see it taking an entire turn (if not more) simply to get everyone turned around before even thinking about withdrawing.

And that's another wasted RCC turn, giving Parson even more room to be both ruthless and unpleasant . . . And for Stanley to get another turn closer . . .

[memnarch]

97, 100, and 105.


On linking:
[url=<the link you want to link to>]<text you want to display>[/url] Most people use this method
[noparse][url]<the link you want to link to>[/url] Use this if you don't mind the actual url being displayed as the text.

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[DevilDan]

Imagine trying to get an entire army turned around on one . . . Especially if it has been proceeding forward and has gotten congested. I can see it taking an entire turn (if not more) simply to get everyone turned around before even thinking about withdrawing.

And that's another wasted RCC turn, giving Parson even more room to be both ruthless and unpleasant . . . And for Stanley to get another turn closer . . .

Don't forget that "time" doesn't pass the way we think of it (I'm pretty sure). So long as his units have moves, Ansom can take all the time that he wants. My main point is that it's too obvious for Ansom not to consider it. And I still don't see that it will necessarily pay off for GK to attack outside of the walls and in the open; sure, some tactical advantage can be garnered from owning the tunnels and using traps and rockfalls, but will it be enough to seriously hurt the coalition's far superior numbers? If he does use the cheap uncroaked, he needs to risk Wanda in the field too.

Perhaps now that he doesn't control the tunnels Ansom has more to worry about in terms of mining and will be forced to change his plans.

I don't disagree that Parson could slow down the coalition deployment for a turn (or more?), but I don't see him turning that bottleneck into a game-changer now that Ansom knows he lost the battle under GK.

Oh, and you don't have to go very far into the comic to see the Masada-like path going up to GK: Page 3.

[Aquillion]

I think you have to differentiate from what Erfworld classifies as "Spells" and what, say, a normal fantasy novel would classify as a Spell.

Erfworld Spells are specific effects, like a thinkagram, raising some uncroaked, casting a veil. Spells are done by Casters who are there to cast spells. Considering how Caster's are treated, the Archons are not what I would define as Casters. Their attack seems magical, it is what a normal fantasy story would call a spell, but in erf terms it is just an attack like a crossbow or a Dwagon's breath weapon.

They do seem to have some spell-like abilities at the very least, though. They can provide thinkagrams, for instance, and offer a magical defense plan (which would be difficult with no magic, despite the fact that they can apparently see magic naturally.)

Of course, in a lot of games like this, it's not uncommon for creatures to have a few abilities that mimic spellcasting in specific ways.

It could also be that Ansom is simply not paying for them as casters; or they could have some minor casting ability, but be more useful as fighters.

(I agree that their attack probably doesn't count as a spell, though. In almost every strategy game of this sort, it's quite common for certain units to have a 'magical' attack, which is just like a normal attack / ranged attack with a few extra rules. It isn't really a spell. Of course, that doesn't mean that people in Erfworld bother to make the distinction -- why do we care about it again, anyway?)

[Dragonath]

So, here's my assumption for the next moments on the strip:

- Parson makes a deal with Charlie offering Charlie Jack the Foolamancer so Charlie can "betray" the RCC and veil his fortress from any retribution later on.

- Archons and Dwagons and Wanda's flier units keep hitting siege and also the uncroaked units try to swarm Ansom and other leadership on the RCC.

- Bogroll is sent in as a decoy dressed up as Parson, leading a Twoll heavy stack, but he retreats heavily wounded or dies and regenerates using his "special ability".

- Transylvito takes Faq and piss off both Ansom and Jillian, Ceasar doesn't give a damn though...

[DevilDan]

Parson makes a deal with Charlie offering Charlie Jack the Foolamancer so Charlie can "betray" the RCC and veil his fortress from any retribution later on.

Charlie is not a short-term thinker. He has to protect his reputation; if people can't trust him, they won't hire him.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0100.html

And I still don't see Parson using the tunnels in any significant way anytime soon. For one, Ansom will be expecting it: he now knows (or will know shortly) that his forces don't hold the tunnels. For another, Parson told Sizemore to close up not only the entrances but everything else that he can. It seems to me that Parson wants to eliminate the tunnels as a viable battlefield.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0124.html

Sizemore knows the tunnels and could conceivably lead troops through them, perhaps closing the tunnels behind them to prevent an RCC counterattack. But a battle outside the tunnels is not a battle that Parson wants to fight; it would be, in fact, the battle that Ansom would like to see happen.

(As an aside: I wonder if Maggie was captured when Orgchart was taken. Her own clothing style suggests a business context even if she is clearly inspired by Thatcher.)

[Eraniverse]

Charlie is not a short-term thinker. He has to protect his reputation; if people can't trust him, they won't hire him.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0100.html

I'd say the hiring out trustworthiness is already taking a pretty big hit what with the whole renegotiating price in the midst of a campaign you were hired for. Sure he stuck to the letter of the contract since Ansom released him but it's bad form.

Also you're dangerously assuming Charlie is content with continued mercenary work. Charlescomm is a kingdom like the others. He's attuned to an Arkentool, has a highly mobile offensive force, specializes in information services, and has apparently been circulating among kingdoms doing merc work with their various armies. Red flags should be going up (or they would be if your kingdom had purchased the Deluxe Intrigue Security package. Contact Charlescomm for pricing).

His reputation concern could merely have been a polite way of turning down an offer to initiate open combat with almost every Erfworld Power at the same time.

Charlie's Rule #23- Snarky comment about bad odds.

Do agree with your tunnel observations though.

[DevilDan]

You're right: it would be dangerous to assume that Charlie does not have an ulterior motive--or several ones, for that matter. All bets are off as far as that goes.

He has grown in prominence in the story. And of course he wields an attuned arkentool. (In fact, why has Stanley, who's unafraid of emphatically stating his opinion on any other subject, been mute on Charlie so far?)

I expect that Charlie will provide a few more surprises; I just don't seem him switching sides unless he's playing a deeper game or unless he's actually ready to put his cards on the table.