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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Was it in this thread, or another one where someone said this didn't even mean they said "You can't raise money for us", it meant "We need to redo how the particulars are assigned, but we'll be happy to work with you", but GenCon decided to go somewhere else? Because, really, at this point, this seems just as likely as what happened as them straight up not agreeing to take the end result of the fundraiser.

    Here's another question: Are you one or more of the following: a tax lawyer, a member of a charity (in a long-term capacity as a member of the administration, rather than a "worker of the line"), or a tax auditor?
    Last edited by KnightDisciple; 2008-11-04 at 03:32 AM.

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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Quote Originally Posted by Koshiro View Post
    People keep forgetting that "There is not enough information available to draw a conclusion" is also a possible answer.
    Yes. Just one that's not true.

    Based on the information laid out, everyone out here is armchair quarterbacking with "maybe it means this" and "maybe the people who were there misunderstood, and me, at my computer, having had no eyewitness experience, have it dead right".

    Based on reading the information that we got from both sources, we find that:

    Gen Con states that the decision was made when D&D entered the equation. CCF did not dispute this.

    CCF did not mention the nature of any of the policies that formed the basis for the refusal. All we know is that CCF has a specific policy laid out which deals with this situation. Not what, or why. CCF has not provided such information.

    So, by Occam's Razor, we can surmise between:
    1) the decision, made at the same time D&D entered the equation, was related to D&D...

    or

    2) the decision, made at the same time D&D entered the equation, was completely coincidental, and was actually for a totally different reason which has been concealed from us by all parties, including the eyewitnesses at Gen Con.

    The simplest is usually true.

    From this, I surmise that the policy that CCF has admitted to having, either deals with D&D specifically (less likely), or a category that they feel D&D belongs to (more likely).

    As the primary opposition to D&D are religious groups, who feel that D&D violates religious beliefs and practices, and CCF is a religious-based charity...

    We are now down to 3 options:

    1) They refused because they have a problem with D&D, most likely due to common religious misconceptions, as stated by the Giant. In this event, their letter is a direct lie.

    2) They refused because they fear a loss of support from individuals who support them. I would have no problem with this, if they stated that was the reason. They did not. In this case, they act as if the gaming community isn't deserving of the full truth.

    3) They refused for a different reason. In this case also, they act as if the gaming community isn't deserving of the full truth.

    In any of the three above scenarios, I, as a member of the gaming community, am being snubbed. Should I be upset when an organization that professes accountability and disclosure either lies or hides the truth?

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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Quote Originally Posted by KnightDisciple View Post
    Here's another question: Are you one or more of the following: a tax lawyer, a member of a charity (in a long-term capacity as a member of the administration, rather than a "worker of the line"), or a tax auditor?
    I'll answer with this. Show evidence that supports that the reasoning for the charity's refusal was directly related to tax law.

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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    Based on the information laid out, everyone out here is armchair quarterbacking with "maybe it means this"
    You mean people are interpreting CCF's statement that "This decision was in no way intended to be a reflection on Mr. Gygax, gaming enthusiasts or the game Dungeon and Dragons" to mean that their decision was not intended to be a reflection on Mr. Gygax, gaming enthusiasts or the game Dungeon and Dragons?

    Perish the thought.

    1) the decision, made at the same time D&D entered the equation, was related to D&D...
    Observer bias. Did other things happen at the time "D&D entered the equation"? Or did CCF one day get an email from GenCon saying "Oh, btw, this auction is partly about D&D"?

    The simplest is usually true.
    Now that is a misunderstanding of Occam's Razor if I ever saw one.
    The hypothesis which requires the least amount of unverifiable assumptions is more sound. Assuming that some party is lying outright is a pretty big unverifiable assumption.

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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Quote Originally Posted by Koshiro View Post
    You mean people are interpreting CCF's statement that "This decision was in no way intended to be a reflection on Mr. Gygax, gaming enthusiasts or the game Dungeon and Dragons" to mean that their decision was not intended to be a reflection on Mr. Gygax, gaming enthusiasts or the game Dungeon and Dragons?

    Perish the thought.


    Observer bias. Did other things happen at the time "D&D entered the equation"? Or did CCF one day get an email from GenCon saying "Oh, btw, this auction is partly about D&D"?


    Now that is a misunderstanding of Occam's Razor if I ever saw one.
    The hypothesis which requires the least amount of unverifiable assumptions is more sound. Assuming that some party is lying outright is a pretty big unverifiable assumption.

    Misunderstanding? Let's look at "misunderstandings".

    Quote Originally Posted by Original source, Gen Con
    Unfortunately, when they found out that the money they would get came partially from sales of Dungeons and Dragons they decided not to be the sponsored charity.
    Dismissed as observer bias? Seems pretty straight forward to me. At the time the CCF discovered D&D's involvement in Gen Con, they bowed out.

    They didn't say, "the CCF did this because of D&D". They reported a correlating time frame between the decision and the information. See, that's what most people refer to as "reporting". Which is why I allowed for the "coincidental". However, Occam's razor DOES apply to outlandish improbabilities, such as the ones that abound within number 2. Hence, I don't buy it.

    And, if you'll note, I did NOT assume one party is lying outright. I listed it as one possibility, and made no judgement on which of the final three was true. Believe me, I speak well enough for myself, I don't need your contributions on my behalf, especially when they misrepresent my position and view. Thank you in advance for your assistance in that particular matter.

    You see, even if they didn't lie... They are NOT disclosing what their reason is. What their policy is in this issue, why it is in place, HOW Gen Con ran afoul of it. They don't feel the need to disclose such information, even though, plastered all over their website is pleasant rhetoric concerning how they believe in accountability and the disclosure of information.

    So hold them to their standard. Hold them accountable for their reasons. In order to do that, they need to GIVE them. Until then, they're trying to weasel their way out, by concealing their full reason.
    Last edited by Talic; 2008-11-04 at 04:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    GenCon has had trouble in the past with their charitable giving. They are, in fact, in chapter 11 right now, which is protecting them from a LucasArts lawsuit about last year's charity auctions.

    It could, very easily, be them trying to throw off the very likely disappointed gamers that were eager to donate to Mr. Gygax's favorite charity by throwing up a smokescreen about religion, when it's really just them failing, again, to follow procedure. Which sounds better to a bunch of gamers honoring the memory of what could be called the father of their favored game: "We failed to arrange an officially sponsored donation" or "They rejected the money because Christians hate us"?

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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    Misunderstanding? Let's look at "misunderstandings".


    Dismissed as observer bias? Seems pretty straight forward to me. At the time the CCF discovered D&D's involvement in Gen Con, they bowed out.

    They didn't say, "the CCF did this because of D&D". They reported a correlating time frame between the decision and the information. See, that's what most people refer to as "reporting".
    Which, for all we know, was at precisely the same time as they discovered that Gen Con was naming them the official charity of the convention. The statement only lists the D&D involvement, which may -- and seems, if we take anything in the CCF's response as being in any way accurate -- be totally unrelated to the decision. And the response thus -- because it only lists the one possible reason -- seems to be very strongly intended to IMPLY that the CCF did it because of D&D, but from all the evidence we've seen there is no reason to think that that was not just an interpretation on the part of the organizers of Gen Con as opposed to any sort of proven fact. This would also strike at calculating which possibility was more likely.

    You see, even if they didn't lie... They are NOT disclosing what their reason is. What their policy is in this issue, why it is in place, HOW Gen Con ran afoul of it. They don't feel the need to disclose such information, even though, plastered all over their website is pleasant rhetoric concerning how they believe in accountability and the disclosure of information.

    So hold them to their standard. Hold them accountable for their reasons. In order to do that, they need to GIVE them. Until then, they're trying to weasel their way out, by concealing their full reason.
    While I have said that they should give the details of the policy in this case, you cannot assume that because they aren't saying what their policies are that they are in some way snubbing or saying anything about "gamers". Many organizations REFUSE to give out their criteria and policies on such matters, due to various business and legal concerns (one of which being, for example, what if you say what your policy is and then it changes, and you allow something that you refused to allow in the past? Does the previous group get to complain about unfair treatment? Simply never mentioning it avoids all of those problems). So your hurt feelings are simply not logically valid, no matter how many pseudo-logical arguments you toss around.

  8. - Top - End - #278
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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalantia View Post
    GenCon has had trouble in the past with their charitable giving. They are, in fact, in chapter 11 right now, which is protecting them from a LucasArts lawsuit about last year's charity auctions.

    It could, very easily, be them trying to throw off the very likely disappointed gamers that were eager to donate to Mr. Gygax's favorite charity by throwing up a smokescreen about religion, when it's really just them failing, again, to follow procedure. Which sounds better to a bunch of gamers honoring the memory of what could be called the father of their favored game: "We failed to arrange an officially sponsored donation" or "They rejected the money because Christians hate us"?
    Note that both of these facts (the chapter 11 and the fact that that protects them from a lawsuit by LucasArts over issues from last year's charity) might be more than sufficient reason for the CCF to refuse to be the official charity AND for them not giving out the reasons why they refused (since if it was partly due to the lawsuit saying so could be seen as interference in a legal case and get them in trouble).

    The more I read, the more it sounds like Gen Con jumped to a conclusion and now everyone is spreading it because, hey, we can all believe that Christians would be narrowminded, right?

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    Default Re: Christian Children's Fund/ Gencon Issue Mischaracterized

    Form letter and in my opinion BS. Everyone, no matter what the content of their letter, received that reply.

    I actually think I'll send an off-topic letter with a few D&D/GenCon keywords and see what reply I get. Watch for it in the sticky.
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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Quote Originally Posted by Daimbert View Post
    Note that both of these facts (the chapter 11 and the fact that that protects them from a lawsuit by LucasArts over issues from last year's charity) might be more than sufficient reason for the CCF to refuse to be the official charity AND for them not giving out the reasons why they refused (since if it was partly due to the lawsuit saying so could be seen as interference in a legal case and get them in trouble).

    The more I read, the more it sounds like Gen Con jumped to a conclusion and now everyone is spreading it because, hey, we can all believe that Christians would be narrowminded, right?
    Yeah. Pretty much.

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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Quote Originally Posted by Daimbert View Post
    The more I read, the more it sounds like Gen Con jumped to a conclusion and now everyone is spreading it because, hey, we can all believe that Christians would be narrowminded, right?
    Now having read about the Lucasarts lawsuit, I have to agree. And that is actually giving GenCon the benefit of doubt and not assuming that they intentionally misrepresented anything.

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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Well, since we now have Gen Con's motivations in doubt, it seemed to me that it would be a good time to write a letter to them asking what happened, from their perspective.

    Shortly ago I send the spoilered letter to the two staffers identified on the Live Game Auctions site. Let's see what, if any, response we get from their side of things.

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    Dear Jon and Katie:

    I hope this is reaching the correct people. You two are the only e-mails listed on the Live Game Auctions page as organizers for the Gen Con Live Game Auction. If you are not the proper people, please do me the favor of forwarding my response to the appropriate person or persons.

    As you are probably aware, the refusal of Christian Children's Fund has caused a bit of an uproar in the gaming community and has prompted questions as to the exact reason for the refusal. The numerous e-mails sent by disgruntled gamers frequently received a form letter reply, an excerpt of which is below.

    When Gen Con contacted CCF about its auction, we were pleased to accept donations. However, we couldnít lend our name for publication because our policies have specific criteria for endorsements. We were unaware that this had caused any problem or concern for Gen Con until we began receiving emails. This decision was in no way intended to be a reflection on Mr. Gygax, gaming enthusiasts or the game Dungeon and Dragons. We have the utmost respect for the gaming community and were touched by the generosity expressed through your auction. We were disappointed that we were not the recipients of the donation but we were pleased that another worthy organization benefited.
    Naturally, this reply has caused a bit of debate as to the cause of CCF's unwillingness to accept donations from the event. As you note, they cite specific criteria for endorsements which, according to them, Gen Con did not meet. This has prompted some to claim that Gen Con has an anti-christian bias, rather than CCF having an anti-D&D bias.

    Obviously, we would all like to clear the air as much as possible. No one wants either CCF or Gen Con to be labeled closed minded undeservedly. So, I write to ask if when CCF refused they mentioned the "specific criteria" to which Gen Con did not conform. If so, what were those criteria?

    I understand that discussing the negotiations between Gen Con, CCF, and other organizations may be a legal concern or you may be otherwise restrained in how detailed your response to this kind of question can be. You needn't be specific if doing so would be problematic. It would be more than enough to know if it was an organizational or legal reason cited by CCF or if it was an explicitly ideological one.

    Thank you very much for your time and consideration. The entire gaming community, including those of us like myself who do not regularly attend gaming conventions outside of their home state, is pleased by, proud of, and thanks you for the fantastic job you did raising $17,000 for the Fisher House Foundation foundation this past year and for putting so much of your own time and effort into Gen Con.

    Sincerely,

    Patrick Woods
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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!


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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Quote Originally Posted by lordglenn View Post
    Of course, the quote from Dahl is exactly the same as the form letter (read e-mail) and the form letter is probably its source. I'm not thrilled with Andy Chalk btw for making that seem like he had a conversation with the woman if it is from the form letter.
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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    As I told them. When policy interferes with your primary mission and vision, it's time to rethink policy.
    As has been pointed out *several* times, plenty of charities have restrictions on what they'll sponsor or endorse, and what those restrictions are aren't necessarily something they make public.

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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalantia View Post
    GenCon has had trouble in the past with their charitable giving. They are, in fact, in chapter 11 right now, which is protecting them from a LucasArts lawsuit about last year's charity auctions.

    It could, very easily, be them trying to throw off the very likely disappointed gamers that were eager to donate to Mr. Gygax's favorite charity by throwing up a smokescreen about religion, when it's really just them failing, again, to follow procedure. Which sounds better to a bunch of gamers honoring the memory of what could be called the father of their favored game: "We failed to arrange an officially sponsored donation" or "They rejected the money because Christians hate us"?
    This... and other replies, points to "maybe it wasn't the charity's fault". Okay, then Gen Con has done a horrible, horrible thing to try to deface the charity like this and we should boycott them and spread the word. Except I'm seeing 10 different reasons for this "maybe", and it's a "maybe". Cut the "maybe it's one guy's fault, maybe it's the other's, let's just form a ring of holding hands around the world and be positive about them both!" Uhhhh, no. Either the charity slapped Gen Con in the face, or Gen Con is screwing over the charity bad. Gen Con said quite plainly that the charity wouldn't be involved when they found out they were getting money from d&d sales. That's either the charity insulting d&d or Gen Con falsely slandering the charity; there's no two ways about it. And perhaps (but not really) whichever one is in the wrong is slandering Christians with all this hoo ha. So come on, cut the speculation. Let's get a single straight story on this. One of the two organizations should be ditched.
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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    After I got the form letter reply, I sent another asking for clarification. I didn't feel like being put off by a form letter. "We have policies" isn't an answer, however politely phrased it was.

    By the way, kudos to those of you who crafted polite and well reasoned letters. My own initial letter was quite curt, though I did remain more or less civil.

    Code:
    Dear Cheri,
    
    Thank you for your response.  I will share this information with
    other gamers, and it was good to hear, but it does leave open 
    the question of what policies could possibly exclude such a group 
    filled with good will.  Gen Con is not a political or religious 
    organization; it's just a bunch of hobbyists, many of whom, like 
    myself, have our own children.  Could you have accepted the 
    money from a model train group? 
    
    While any group of diverse people will contain a few who do bad 
    things, in my experience, this has been lower in the gaming 
    community than most other groups I have joined.  I know the public 
    perception is that we all worship satan and do dangerous things in 
    steam tunnels, but a couple of crazy people shouldn't taint an entire 
    population.  
    
    Would you be so kind as to explain what your policies are, that 
    precluded Gen Con?

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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    This... and other replies, points to "maybe it wasn't the charity's fault". Okay, then Gen Con has done a horrible, horrible thing to try to deface the charity like this and we should boycott them and spread the word. Except I'm seeing 10 different reasons for this "maybe", and it's a "maybe". Cut the "maybe it's one guy's fault, maybe it's the other's, let's just form a ring of holding hands around the world and be positive about them both!" Uhhhh, no. Either the charity slapped Gen Con in the face, or Gen Con is screwing over the charity bad. Gen Con said quite plainly that the charity wouldn't be involved when they found out they were getting money from d&d sales. That's either the charity insulting d&d or Gen Con falsely slandering the charity; there's no two ways about it. And perhaps (but not really) whichever one is in the wrong is slandering Christians with all this hoo ha. So come on, cut the speculation. Let's get a single straight story on this. One of the two organizations should be ditched.
    You are presenting a false dichotomy. Here is a way in which both parties could be guilty of nothing more than misunderstanding:

    Gen Con contacts CCF, mentions the auction, mentions D&D and asks that they be the "official charity".

    CCF checks the situation, notes that it violates their policies for when they can be an official charity, and says that being the official charity would violate their policies and so that they cannot be the official charity. They don't say why.

    Gen Con looks at it, tries to figure out why, and not unreasonably concludes that it might be the result of D&D since Christian groups have had problems with it before. This gets mentioned and accepted as the most reasonable conclusion. And then things get blown up out of proportion and people start running with the original story and making nasty comments about it.

    CCF replies to some people but the stories are already out there and some people experience outrage reading outdated comments about the story (it would be nice if Rich would update his news thing soon).

    In this scenario, neither side is really doing anything all that wrong. Gen Con jumped to a conclusion that was not unreasonable, but then it got out of control. They don't MEAN to slander the charity. And CCF didn't mean to imply anything about gamers. Chances are, the two of them could just sit down and iron out the misunderstanding if we weren't ranting so much about it.

    Now, I agree that this is speculation and that it would be nice if we'd get the real story. But this explanation works if I don't want to assume that either side is being dishonest; both views are true ... from a certain point of view [grin].

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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    This... and other replies, points to "maybe it wasn't the charity's fault". Okay, then Gen Con has done a horrible, horrible thing to try to deface the charity like this and we should boycott them and spread the word.
    How about not boycotting anyone? Is that not an option?

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    Thumbs up Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Quote Originally Posted by Daimbert View Post
    You are presenting a false dichotomy. Here is a way in which both parties could be guilty of nothing more than misunderstanding…
    Hopefully, this is exactly what happened. I would hate for either organization to be acting out of any sort of malice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Koshiro View Post
    How about not boycotting anyone? Is that not an option?
    Oh, sure. But if it turns out either party acted due to some malicious motive, an official boycott is probably the best, and maybe the only way, for said party to get the message as to how displeased we really are.

    Of course, as Daimbert's scenario shows, there's a good chance no such action will be necessary.
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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatMrChibi View Post
    So, wait.

    This all happened 3 months ago, right? And the CCF didn't turn down the cash, but politely and quietly said, "No thank you" before the fact? And there was a very successful charity auction anyway, that generated a lot of money, which was donated to another charity?



    ...WHY IS EVERYBODY GETTING ANGRY OVER THIS!?
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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Would it be moral of them to take the money? Is it moral of us to complain?

    If they would lose more money than they would gain by accepting the donation, then it would be immoral for them to accept it. They know better than us about whether that would be the case, so let's assume that they would lose more money than they would gain, thus they are doing the morally correct thing.

    Also, this has been done. Why are we complaining? Are we just making them get less money because they made a decision that hurt us? That's not fair: by your letters and publicising you are taking away money from these starving children. And if my first point was correct, then they made a morally right decision, so we are making an even worse one.

    What we should do is shut up about it and donate money to other charities. World Vision sounded pretty similar.
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    Default Re: Christian Children's Fund/ Gencon Issue Mischaracterized

    "However, we couldnít lend our name for publication because our policies have specific criteria for endorsements. "

    It's simple. Their policies forbid them from accepting money from GenCon publically. They say to us that it's just a misunderstanding, that they respect the gaming community, yada-yada-yada... but their own policies forbid them from publically saying D&D is okay.

    Obviously, GenCon doesn't need to (and shouldn't) give stealth donations. Looks to me like it went to a good place anyway.

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    Default Re: Christian Children's Fund/ Gencon Issue Mischaracterized

    Nonetheless, it is interesting to note how quickly the gaming community - including, unfortunately, Rich himself - jumped on the bandwagon and drew certain conclusions. I myself am having difficulty finding many reliable sources for the sort of allegations that Rich is making. Perhaps we shouldn't dismiss their objections out of hand?

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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    I see a lot of mentions about the Charity's culpability because we lack direct proof to the contrary. Don't.. most nations say "Innocent until proven guilty"? And honestly, folks, it's a charity. If you're going to get mad at an organization, can we /please/ find better targets? I assure you that better targets are out there to be had then a charity who may not accept money from DnD (And from the form letter's looks of it, would indeed have taken the money. We just don't know their rules on endorsements). I can not tell you what those groups are, due to forum rules on current events, but.. they exist.

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    Default Re: Christian Children's Fund/ Gencon Issue Mischaracterized

    Yes, as has been said in the sticked thread; it may well be that, instead of not taking the money at all, they simply said that they needed the whole endorsement/sponsorship/publication/etc. thing worked out differently. GenCon may have simply misunderstood.
    Seriously. Stop doing exactly what you're accusing CCF of doing: jumping to conclusions based on vague writings that are quite possibly biased.
    Also, note the sticky thread.

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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Would it be moral of them to take the money? Is it moral of us to complain?

    If they would lose more money than they would gain by accepting the donation, then it would be immoral for them to accept it. They know better than us about whether that would be the case, so let's assume that they would lose more money than they would gain, thus they are doing the morally correct thing.

    Also, this has been done. Why are we complaining? Are we just making them get less money because they made a decision that hurt us? That's not fair: by your letters and publicising you are taking away money from these starving children. And if my first point was correct, then they made a morally right decision, so we are making an even worse one.

    What we should do is shut up about it and donate money to other charities. World Vision sounded pretty similar.
    I agree with your closing remark that we should donate to an alternate charity but not with other points in your post.

    Is it moral for us to complain? What is immoral about it? Being discriminated against, and voicing that we don't approve is not immoral. That is what they are accused of doing - refusing the money because it was associated with D&D. Maybe immediately assuming that reason has something to do with the old stereotypes is jumping to a conclusion, but that is not very far to leap. What is wrong is bashing an entire religion for something an organization with "Christian" in their title is accused of doing. All kinds of people assign titles to themselves but not all of them do it rightly. Saying I am the Queen of Sheba does not make it so - people saying they are a particular religion also does not make it so. IMO there is another they will have to answer to on that accord.

    Was it moral of them to refuse the donation? No. If by refusing the donation they are promoting a stereotype then it is not "moral", but it may be understandable. Assuming they would lose other donations because those donors have said we will withdraw because they disapprove of D&D. If this was the case, CCF was in a no-win situation. Admitting they don't disapprove may be just as bad as accepting the money while admitting they disapprove doesn't reflect nicely on them, either. Either way, there is a difference between acknowledging the reason and condoning it.

    I see a lot of mentions about the Charity's culpability because we lack direct proof to the contrary. Don't.. most nations say "Innocent until proven guilty"?
    Innocent until proven guilty goes both ways. Assuming D&D is somehow immoral condemns any of those who play, no matter how nicely they try to say otherwise. So far I have only received the same form letter other have been receiving although I have sent other letters both to CCF and Live Game Auction asking for additional details. CCF has not come out and denied what Live Game Auctions has posted on their site and I have to wonder why. I am sure CCF will take legal action if this was a complete fabrication.

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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Quote Originally Posted by Barroque View Post
    Innocent until proven guilty goes both ways. Assuming D&D is somehow immoral condemns any of those who play, no matter how nicely they try to say otherwise. So far I have only received the same form letter other have been receiving although I have sent other letters both to CCF and Live Game Auction asking for additional details. CCF has not come out and denied what Live Game Auctions has posted on their site and I have to wonder why. I am sure CCF will take legal action if this was a complete fabrication.
    That'd be a hard sell of Slander, actually. Organizations that operate in the public eye are similar to people that operate in it; Public figures just have a significantly higher burden of proof.

    You say that it's wrong of them to accuse you of X without proof. You are correct. But there's no reason to think that they /are/ accusing you of X. Why, according to Livegameauctions.com, it was Gygax's favorite charity. Don't you think that he would have picked someone else if they ripped on his legacy? It's not like there aren't enough folks to give money too.

    I maintain that your anger is better channeled at.. here's a technically permissible one. Corporate offices that don't practice fair trade.
    Last edited by RPGuru1331; 2008-11-05 at 03:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Maybe it would be a hard sell legally but I think they would have an easy time showing the statements hurt their reputation. The exact statement is:

    when they found out that the money they would get came partially from sales of Dungeons and Dragons they decided not to be the sponsored charity
    I really have to doubt they say that because some edition of the Player's Handbook didn't live up to their expectations.

    My anger is directed at CCF for the ignorance of the statement and for not denying the connection. Both entities (Live Game Auctions and CCF) have at least a few e-mails letting them know the situation and so far neither has said it is untrue. I wrote CCF to tell them I was unhappy, I asked for additional details, none came, so I pulled my support. If they do not want money that has been around D&D then I will not continue to contaminate their coffers with mine. It is hypocritical to accept donations from the individuals but then condemn the group, IMO, even if they don't know the individuals are part of the group. (Maybe even ESPECIALLY if they don't know the individuals are part of the group.) I also donít believe this was public knowledge. I certainly wasnít screened with a questionnaire about my involvement with D&D before being allowed to donate.

    If you are not offended then that is your prerogative and good for you - and I mean that genuinely. If you want to donate to them or continue to donate, that is up to you. I donít, and I wonít and I can be angry with them for the reasons I have stated. As far as corporate offices that don't practice fair trade, people can be upset with them, too; the issues are not mutually exclusive. There are plenty of other issues and causes and this thread is just about one, but it is one that I take personally.

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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    ^ That quoted statement is the crux. Is it true, maliciously false, or mistakenly false? Even if it's mistakenly false that's an awfully high level of neglect. And when I see 10 different conflicting reasons for it to be a mistake, I'm tempted to believe those reasons are pure speculation. I don't know for sure yet, but that's why I keep asking for something solid. Please cut the speculation.

    And a false dichotomy is where you state that there are only 2 options even though there's no reason for them to be mutually exclusive and/or the only options. It's not a fancy-pants term to throw around as a substitute for using reason even after a reason really is given for the two options to be mutually exclusive... and you just really don't want them to be.

    I was annoyed at the lack of detail Rich gave in his news post. But all these guesses filling in the details are worse.

    Here, I'll provide something to help get this moving in the right direction. Has the charity issued any statement confirming or denying the convention's statement? That'll lead to an easy answer if they confirm it, and I don't expect it to be so easy, but it's worth a shot. And it's best to exhaust each of our avenues of investigation one by one, to provide a thorough search for the answer or to at least to reach the conclusion that we've looked at everything and still just don't know.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2008-11-05 at 04:19 PM.
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