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  1. - Top - End - #331
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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeb The Troll View Post
    I think that's less likely, actually. That'd be sort of along the lines of not supporting an artist's convention because sometimes artists paint nudes. GenCon is a family oriented affair and a lot of people bring their kids to it. If the shelves were over run with books like the BoEF, the whole thing would have an entirely different atmosphere.

    I believe that what transpired was far less nefarious than what has been speculated in these pages. It's possible, mind you, that D&D had some part in the decision (D&D, while not the only game represented, is far and away the most largely represented. The WotC corner of the vendor's hall is several times larger than that of any other vendor present and there are a great many other vendors who's products support that specific hobby.) but I'm inclined to believe that the Jack Chick's don't work in high profile, decision making positions of international charitable organizations precisely because that kind of world view causes this kind of backlash.

    My two bits.
    Ah well. It was simple speculation on my part anyways.

  2. - Top - End - #332
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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Quote Originally Posted by bigity View Post
    Why is it an insult? I bet you had zero bucks in that 17k in any case.
    Please show me where in anything that you quoted I used or implied that it was an insult. I didn't say that at all ...

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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This was my gut reaction as well, but as you say, I'm willing to let it go since it seems like the message was received.
    This quote from the GenCon statement seems to belie this:

    "We later found out that we had been misinformed as to CCF’s position in regards to D&D and Gen Con, but by then we had already chosen Fisher House as our charity, and announcements and promotions were already made and in the works, such that it would not have been possible to change charities at that point."

    In short, GenCon says that before the big blow-up they were told that they were misinformed about the position -- although the CCF still likely didn't want to be a sponsor -- but that since they had set everything up to give it all to Fisher House they couldn't change. So, yeah, even from the GenCon announcement it was a misunderstanding.

  4. - Top - End - #334
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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    I haven't seen anything from CCF which says that they turned down GenCon specifically because of a D&D connection Perhaps CCF had no idea who GenCon is. Perhaps they've gotten requests from unknown people in the past to use their name and logo, and that's why they have a policy is to say "no".

    So I'm not going to hate on CCF.

    Meanwhile there are plenty of other charities out there, so GenCon can find one that's more open to letting GenCon display its logo.

    For anyone who is spending nmoney on charity: all this stuff is actually small potatoes. Use a service like Guidestar or Charity Navigator to research how much a charity accomplishes and how much overhead they have. Charities in the USA file financial statements with the IRS (Form 990), and Guidestar has links to those, so you can dig into those if you know a little accounting.
    "Mummies? Okay, I pull flaming oil out of my backpack!"

  5. - Top - End - #335
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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Quote Originally Posted by Daimbert View Post
    Please show me where in anything that you quoted I used or implied that it was an insult. I didn't say that at all ...
    My apologies, I quoted the wrong post. I'll go fix it.


    What's dumb about this whole process is some egos are getting in between a charity, money, and people who could use it.

    Misunderstandings happen. Relax. I don't believe anybody in CCF was out to bash gamers, but plenty of gamers jumped the gun to bash CCF, or by extension, Christians. Not necessarily at this site, but in general.
    Last edited by bigity; 2008-11-06 at 10:32 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #336
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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    I wrote a letter, got the boxed response. Felt like I had done what I thought should be done.

    If you don't like something, write an angry letter/e-mail. Even if you do not get a response, if enough say something, what your angry about WILL change. This is just another example that the noisy wheel gets the oil.

    And even if this was a misunderstanding, CCF will make sure they are exact and understandable about how they do business, this will allow them to do what NOBODY is angry about them doing, helping the children.

    That is about all I have to say about all this.


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  7. - Top - End - #337
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    Default Re: Christian Children's Fund/ Gencon Issue Mischaracterized

    Just wanted to post a link to the GC forums, and Gen Con's official response:


    http://community.gencon.com/forums/t/18786.aspx

    "I would like to take this opportunity to set the record straight on the Gen Con Indy 2008 Charity issue, as there has been a lot of misinformation spreading like wildfire on various forums, blogs, etc.

    First allow me to explain how Gen Con goes about selecting its show charity. The process is very simple. We generally choose several potential charities based on the following criteria…
    Is local to the (Indy) area
    Supports children
    Preferably has a focus in math, science or gaming related activities.
    Staff then votes individually on which charity we would like to support at the show; majority wins.
    In 2008, Gen Con decided on a different route in choosing the charity, due the death of Gary Gygax, Gen Con's founder. It was without question that the charity for 2008 would be one of Gary's favorite charities.

    In choosing the charity for 2008, Gen Con had heard through several channels, including a close friend of Gary's family, that Christian Children's Fund (CCF) was one of Gary's favored charities. Gen Con contacted CCF about our intentions and asked for a logo and some promotional materials that we could use on our website. We were informed by a person at CCF that they would not be able to provide us with these materials, apparently due to our association with D&D. We were not comfortable with this position, considering Gary's role as co-founder of D&D, and founder of Gen Con, and therefore we decided to pick a different charity. We informed the Gygax family of our decision and the reason behind it, and asked if there was another charity they would like us to consider. Fisher House was suggested, as it too was a favored charity of Gary's. Considering the outstanding services this charity provides to service members, veterans, and their families, we knew Fisher House would be a great charity for Gen Con to support. We later found out that we had been misinformed as to CCF's position in regards to D&D and Gen Con, but by then we had already chosen Fisher House as our charity, and announcements and promotions were already made and in the works, such that it would not have been possible to change charities at that point.

    To be clear, Gen Con made the decision not to donate to CCF; at no time did CCF refuse to take charity money from Gen Con. Gen Con chooses a show charity long before Gen Con Indy 2008 ever takes place.

    I have sent an email to The Partnership that runs www.livegameauctions.com and asked them to make sure the information being presented and discussed on their website is updated and accurate regarding this issue. I would also like to ask each of you to do your part in setting the record straight by contacting the various websites, blogs, etc. that you are active on, and where this issue is being discussed, to make sure they have their facts correct as well. The statement on Wikinews purporting to be from a Gen Con staff member is completely incorrect, as Gen Con staff has never commented on this subject …until now.

    If there are any further questions or points of clarification, please feel free to contact me personally at jeannette@gencon.com.


    Thank you.
    Jeannette LeGault
    Director of Event Programming - Gen Con LLC"

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    Default Re: Christian Children's Fund/ Gencon Issue Mischaracterized

    Hey guys.
    Stickied thread.
    Is useful.

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  9. - Top - End - #339
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    Default Re: Christian Children's Fund/ Gencon Issue Mischaracterized

    It could be this way, it could be that way. I've decided that my best course of action is to make a donation to Fisher House in Gary's name and then stop worrying about it. They take donations online.

    If CCF has dissed D&D, that's about as fierce as I'd get in revenge. If we're going to flood anyone with anything, I'd suggest flooding Fisher House with Gygax donations.

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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    I know it'll be an unpopular opinion, but I think Rich needs to apologize for his initial blog post.

    How he manages to be "thrilled" at the gaming community's response to the initial (i.e. inaccurate) story is beyond me.

    Personally, I'm a bit embarrassed at how some gamers reacted. Those who kept their heads and wrote CCF asking for clarification did the right thing. Those who flamed CCF did nothing more than perpetuate their own stereotype.

  11. - Top - End - #341
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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Hello all..

    After hearing all of the frustration and anger being vented here, I decided to draft my own letter to CCF (a week or so ago.) I didn't beat down the door, or accuse them of eating babies or anything - I simply told them that my goal was to clear their name with my fellow gamers in a very outraged community. Below is the response I received this morning. Very different than the updated information that I have seen posted around here, but definately something to take into consideration when pondering their motives.

    Email Received 11/7/08

    Thank you for your inquiry.

    One of the criteria we take into consideration is whether the organization is financially sound. At the time we were contacted Gen Con was filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

    Before we could reach consensus, Gen Con moved forward in selecting another charity. Again, we did not realize how much concern this caused within the gaming community until we began hearing from so many of you. It was never intended as a slight.

    I hope this provides the needed clarification. It is my understanding that Gen Con also has posted information under “Forum” on its Web site.

    Sincerely,

    Cheri Dahl
    Vice President,
    International Communications and Fundraising

  12. - Top - End - #342
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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    I hadn't heard that GenCon was filing for Bankruptcy. Can someone verify this?

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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Bankruptcy?....When?.....Huh?.....GREAT NOW I'M CONFUSED! I'm going to write and angry letter then never mail it....


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  14. - Top - End - #344
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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuindless View Post
    I hadn't heard that GenCon was filing for Bankruptcy. Can someone verify this?
    http://www.gamegrene.com/node/878
    http://www.livingdice.com/index.php/...-Released.html

    It's all over the net apparently.
    Last edited by Neftren; 2008-11-07 at 07:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Quote Originally Posted by Telas View Post
    I know it'll be an unpopular opinion, but I think Rich needs to apologize for his initial blog post.

    How he manages to be "thrilled" at the gaming community's response to the initial (i.e. inaccurate) story is beyond me.

    Personally, I'm a bit embarrassed at how some gamers reacted. Those who kept their heads and wrote CCF asking for clarification did the right thing. Those who flamed CCF did nothing more than perpetuate their own stereotype.
    To be fair, he wasn't the only one reporting this story (I've seen it on other sites), so not all the letters were due to him.

    Besides which, he's absolutely right about three things:
    • The "specific criteria" were never elaborated on, so who is to say that Gen Con will be denied again next year? Why not tell Gen Con what to do to meet the criteria (assuming they have nothing to do with D&D) if CCF was really interested in their donations?
    • What became of the person who DID deny Gen Con's donation? Were they informed? Chastised in any way? Slapped on the wrist? Or slapped on the back? We, or at least the Gen Con people, deserve to know what CCF is doing to prevent similar misunderstandings going forward.
    • The letters DID help (yes, even the angry ones) if they brought to CCF's attention any kind of flaw in their information-providing services that would cause a misunderstanding like this to happen.


    So, I disagree - the Giant has NOTHING to apologize for, since only good came of this - both for the children and the gaming community.

  16. - Top - End - #346
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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    To be fair, he wasn't the only one reporting this story (I've seen it on other sites), so not all the letters were due to him.

    Besides which, he's absolutely right about three things:
    • The "specific criteria" were never elaborated on, so who is to say that Gen Con will be denied again next year? Why not tell Gen Con what to do to meet the criteria (assuming they have nothing to do with D&D) if CCF was really interested in their donations?
    • What became of the person who DID deny Gen Con's donation? Were they informed? Chastised in any way? Slapped on the wrist? Or slapped on the back? We, or at least the Gen Con people, deserve to know what CCF is doing to prevent similar misunderstandings going forward.
    • The letters DID help (yes, even the angry ones) if they brought to CCF's attention any kind of flaw in their information-providing services that would cause a misunderstanding like this to happen.


    So, I disagree - the Giant has NOTHING to apologize for, since only good came of this - both for the children and the gaming community.
    What good came out of this? A bunch of gaming nerds got pissed because the story was reported without any sort of rigor. If you're going to post something that you KNOW will inflame your base, you have a responsibility to do actual fact checking. I'm sorry, but a bunch of negative emotions, anger, and distrust of a reasonable charity is in fact, not a fair trade for "We know now that Nerds have short fuses, and that we must be precise iwth them"

    And I am also a gaming nerd, lest you misunderstand my use of the term.

  17. - Top - End - #347
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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Quote Originally Posted by RPGuru1331 View Post
    What good came out of this? A bunch of gaming nerds got pissed because the story was reported without any sort of rigor.
    The fact is that someone at CCF told someone at Gen Con that they weren't accepting donations from them for a dubious reason. Whether CCF as an organization agrees with that stance isn't the issue; the issue is that they need to better educate/control their staff.

    Imagine if this story hadn't been brought to light - that same person who was answering the phones would have been able to keep cherry-picking donation sources. In the best case scenario, his superiors weren't aware of what he was doing, and in the worst case, they were actively encouraging it.

    Hence, good.

  18. - Top - End - #348
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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Imagine if this story hadn't been brought to light - that same person who was answering the phones would have been able to keep cherry-picking donation sources. In the best case scenario, his superiors weren't aware of what he was doing, and in the worst case, they were actively encouraging it.
    Actually, the best and most likely, in my opinion, scenario is that this person cherry-picking sources never really existed, that Gen-Con only heard they were "not meeting certain criteria" and assumed that this was due to the D&D controversy of the '80s when it was actually because of them filing bankruptcy.

    I also think that the angry e-mails Rich mentions being thrilled about are the ones that intelligently point out how gamers feel misrepresented and should be enlightened to the policies that kept this money from going through, and not the flames like the one described in the below spoiler:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smoke_Rulz View Post
    I didn't cuss them out or anything like that, I just wished ill upon their organization as a whole. You guys probably don't wish to see something like that. Felt pretty good, though. :)
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoke_Rulz View Post
    And I will indeed wish ill will on their entire organization. I don't trust a single person who works for it, let alone the higher-ups. If you don't like it, that's really just too bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    So, you're wishing ill will even the people who work hard at helping children and had nothing to do with the decision? You honestly see no problems with that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoke_Rulz View Post
    Yes I am. And no I don't see any problems with it. Because I don't believe for a second that they're helping anything. My hatred for their organization stems from a long time ago, long before the incident that started this topic we post in now (and this incident sure didn't improve their standing). No, I will not discuss it. No, I don't care if your opinion on things is different. And yes, I will continue to wish ill will on anyone that is a part of the organization for as long as I please. I am a very hateful and vengeful person, and if that gets to you so much that you would somehow label it as "snobby," you should lighten up a bit.
    Last edited by Raging Gene Ray; 2008-11-08 at 03:50 AM.

  19. - Top - End - #349
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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Form letter 2. I also received that one. While they don't specifically list financial soundness as the actual reason they denied Gen Con's sponsorship, they list a clear ad plausible explanation for their actions.

    That's all I wanted. The refusal explained. I am one of those people that believes that when you're denied something, the good thing to do is explain it to you, so you can correct the problem. That way, people know how to prevent the issue from happening again.

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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Quote Originally Posted by Raging Gene Ray View Post
    Actually, the best and most likely, in my opinion, scenario is that this person cherry-picking sources never really existed, that Gen-Con only heard they were "not meeting certain criteria" and assumed that this was due to the D&D controversy of the '80s when it was actually because of them filing bankruptcy.
    Again, this could all have been avoided if they just came out and said it.

    I also think that the angry e-mails Rich mentions being thrilled about are the ones that intelligently point out how gamers feel misrepresented and should be enlightened to the policies that kept this money from going through, and not the flames like the one described in the below spoiler:
    Flamethrowers like that are regrettable, but they would have happened with or without the Giant's involvement. Other sites that reported the mess:

    Digg
    Escapist Magazine
    Living Dice
    RPG.net
    Gamertell
    Wikinews.org

    And that's just the FIRST page of Google results (the Playground is on page 2.) So again, Rich has nothing to apologize for in my mind, though he's certainly free to do so if he chooses.

  21. - Top - End - #351
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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Is there any reason for this thread to remain stickied anymore?

  22. - Top - End - #352
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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Digg
    Escapist Magazine
    Living Dice
    RPG.net
    Gamertell
    Wikinews.org

    And that's just the FIRST page of Google results (the Playground is on page 2.) So again, Rich has nothing to apologize for in my mind, though he's certainly free to do so if he chooses.
    On the other hand, it wasn't very hard to fact-check this issue either. Almost all the reports were rehashing the same rumor. The sourced one another in a chain that always ended in LiveGamingAuctions.com's post that CCF had refused the money "due to it being tainted by Dungeons and Dragons." The claim itself had no source communication to back it up, named no names, and did not come from GenCon LLC in any official capacity.

    That makes it an unsubstantiated rumor. It continued to circulate because it pandered to the prejudices of certain parties, met the "Jack Chick unfairly persecuted gamers" meme to a "T," and passed through sources that applied poor standards of journalism. Thus the falsehood, repeated sufficient times at sufficient volume, became the "facts" for some people.

    Additionally, the decision-makers at GenCon have stated that they were misinformed. This does not necessarily place blame on CCF either. Both groups have volunteers that relay this kind of information. GenCon management may have been misinformed by the inference of one of their own volunteers or partners (like LiveGamingAuctions.com) just as easily as they may have been misinformed by someone fielding calls at Christian Children's Fund. We'll likely never know who dropped the ball since such finger-pointing would be poor business form for either party and they are looking to cooperate in 2009. Plus getting into hair-splitting over "he inferred" vs. "I implied," is downright tedious.

    There are positives to take away from here, though. Some people may be a bit more willing to question their prejudices in the future, or at least less willing to judge the motives of others. Some of us are going to take a bit more responsibility for the "verify" part of "trust but verify." CCF working to improve their communications should be a positive step too. Plus, GenCon and CCF looking to work together in 2009 can only mean good things for some needy kids.

    - Marty Lund
    Last edited by mlund; 2008-11-10 at 07:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Hi

    Totally agree that something good can come from this - maybe the charity & GenCon organisers will have something to prove and work better together next year. Sure the children would appredciate all the help they can get.

    Don't seem to have the same problem with charities in the UK. Conception is an annual charity event in UK every January. Roughly 500 attendees raise about £10,000 each year for a local charities, including some supporting children.

    Cheers
    Paul H

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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul H View Post
    Don't seem to have the same problem with charities in the UK. Conception is an annual charity event in UK every January. Roughly 500 attendees raise about £10,000 each year for a local charities, including some supporting children.
    Trust me, this is an abnormality alongside tens of thousands of charity drives that happen every year. Charity (as opposed to government social welfare spending) is truly enormous within the United States. This incident is akin to a single grain of sand in a massive beach. It just gets more publicity because we Yanks like to hear ourselves talk. ;)

    - Marty Lund

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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    I had emailed the charity to ask about why the donation was allegedly declined, and got a response similar to the above responses (copied below).

    My take on it: The charity does not lend their name to the collection of donations by companies which are financially unsound. GenCon had filed for a form of bankruptcy at the time, and hence the charity's policy (which must be followed by the way, as it would be in their non-profit corporation bylaws and minutes) dictated that they decline the opportunity to have their name attached to the collection of donations from a financially unsound company like GenCon.

    This is not an unusual policy, and is usually a good one. Bankrupt companies operate under a different set of laws and duties than non-bankrupt ones, and often have additional red tape they need to cut through to get things done with finances, and there is the risk that donations can get tangled up with those bankruptcy complications. If those bankrupt companies end up going out of business, they can harm the goodwill of the charity whose name is associated with the bankrupt company.

    All things being equal, a charity prefers to have its name attached financially sound organizations rather than financially questionable ones, and GenCon fell into the later category.

    There is no evidence, at all, that this had anything to do with D&D or gaming.

    Thank you for writing and sharing your concerns. Please know that we take your email very seriously.



    There appears to be a misunderstanding which I would like to correct. When Gen Con contacted CCF about its auction, we were pleased to accept donations. However, we couldn’t lend our name for publication because our policies have specific criteria for endorsements. For example, we take into consideration whether the organization is financially sound.



    We were unaware that this had caused any problem or concern for Gen Con until we began receiving emails. This decision was in no way intended to be a reflection on Mr. Gygax, gaming enthusiasts or the game Dungeon and Dragons. We have the utmost respect for the gaming community and were touched by the generosity expressed through your auction. We were disappointed that we were not the recipients of the donation but we were pleased that another worthy organization benefited.



    We realize this has become a topic of discussion in the gaming community and we hope you will help us by sharing this response. It is my understanding that Gen Con also has posted information under “Forum” on its Web site.



    The needs of children are great and we welcome your support. Should you wish to learn more, we invite you to visit our website at Christian Children's Fund: Improving the Lives of Children - Sponsor a Child Today.



    Again, I thank you for taking the time to voice your concern. Your passion for gaming and your support for children are admirable.



    Sincerely,



    Cheri Dahl

    Vice President,

    International Communications and

    Fundraising

  26. - Top - End - #356
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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Post #337 seems to be the best information we have on the matter so far. Just bumping this thread since it seems that Gencon's official statement hasn't got much attention.

    And here's a link to the original source if you're too lazy to scroll up or just want to see it from the primary source: http://community.gencon.com/forums/t/18786.aspx

    IMO it seems to support Rich's update to the matter on the news page. Before I saw this official comment I thought Rich was kinda guessing.
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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    I'm in.

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  28. - Top - End - #358
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Morchaint's Avatar

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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    yea I sent them an irate email they gave me the oops story too

    I still think they reacted stupidly and wrongly and
    the apology doesnt change that.

    and I HOPE they fired that guy who said no.
    except its a hard time to find a job right now. so I guess they could keep him
    on part time on probation or something.
    ~Morchaint
    Eat dessert first, Life is Uncertain.
    Eat Chocolate and ask questions later.
    I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, you can't prove anything!

    Official Bloodsplatterer of the Cult of Belkar
    That which does not kill you was simply not permitted to do so for the purposes of the plot.

    I had images. and I thought I had spoilers
    guess they went away.

  29. - Top - End - #359
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Flame of Anor's Avatar

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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    I just came on here to say that this thread shouldn't be stickied anymore, but then I saw GENCON BANKRUPT OH NOOEZZ!!! What will happen????
    R.I.P.

    Quote Originally Posted by WampaX View Post
    It ain't not over 'til the Rich Baker bellows.
    avatar by me. Extended sig here.

  30. - Top - End - #360
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!

    Quote Originally Posted by Flame of Anor View Post
    I just came on here to say that this thread shouldn't be stickied anymore, but then I saw GENCON BANKRUPT OH NOOEZZ!!! What will happen????
    Read up on what bankruptcy actually means. It does not mean "closes their doors".

    Gen Con has asked a court to decree that their creditors (people they owe money to) take a step back and wait for them to restructure certain aspects of their business. Were the creditors to press them for their money, Gen Con wouldn't have the opportunity to restructure themselves, and couldn't pay back the money they owe. So everyone agrees to step back and let GC work it out.

    At least that's how it works in theory. Most companies who ask for voluntary bankruptcy eventually emerge from it as profitable businesses.

    This was all precipitated by a lawsuit by LucasArts over a charity auction at one of the Star Wars Celebrations. The lawsuit (or the cost of fighting it) would have cost Gen Con too much to deal with, so they asked for bankruptcy. BTW, the charity received the money GC owed it; they specifically asked for that in the bankruptcy filing.

    Gen Con filed for bankruptcy before Gen Con 2008, and it went off without a hitch, so we shouldn't see much change at all from our end. This is not to say that they won't run into some bigger problems (such as a major recession, a flawed business plan, or another lawsuit), but it's looking good so far.

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