"Do you actually know what your diety stands for?"

[Hzurr]

So a player in my (4E) campaign recently decided to make a new character, a str-based cleric of Bahamet. His backstory is actually decent (compared with what he usually comes up with), and ties in well with several of the other party members.

The problem is, he's a cleric of Bahamet, who really doesn't do...anything that Bahamet does. The most recent issue was using intimidate every time he got a chance (including threatening a begger with death for asking for money).

Now, I plan on speaking with him, reminding him that he's a cleric of the Lawful good diety of justice, however, I have a sinking feeling it won't make much of a difference, because all of his characters are pretty much the same (KILL THINGS, LOOT THEM, THREATEN THEM!), regardless of class.

Now, there is a place for that kind of character, even a place for that kind of cleric, but as a cleric of Bahamut? If it was Kord...yeah, I can see that, but Bahamut? Eh...not so much.

Here's the question: What should happen to a cleric who continually acts in a manor contrary to his diety? I know alignment and behavior rules are a bit...fuzzy in 4E, but there should be limits since he's playing a very Chaotic-Neutral character while serving as the cleric of a Lawful Good diety.

Ironically, we actually have a Paladin of Bahamut, as well as another cleric of Bahamut in the party, who are doing a pretty decent job of being good (although the other cleric is still a bit on the "chaotic" side of good, but I'm not too worried about him), so it's not like he doesn't have examples of how followers of the big B should behave.

(Also, is it just me, or is it really weird that in 4E a cleric can get away with having a 10 wisdom? I mean, I understand that you can have a cleric who focuses on str, but a 10 wis? Really?

[hamishspence]

a 4th ed cleric by the rules can get away with anything, since 4th ed has no rules for Falling.

There is much argument over this, but PHB has no rules for clerics losing powers when they change alignment. Remember any cleric can start out unaligned, whatever alignment of their deity.

PHB recommends angels and more orthodox clerics express their displeasure some, to the erring cleric. Doesn't have to be really heavy, but he needs a hint.

[Bouregard]

Maybe he meets one of his superiors who watch him do something what violate his clerical oats. That one could either strip him from his titles or exclude him from the church or remind him of his duties. If he's really that violent I would recommend meet him a whole party of his brothers.

[arguskos]

Personally, I'd tell him that Bahamut appears to him in a dream, and scolds him for acting in way contrary to what he desires or exemplifies. If the cleric continues to act that way, strip him of his powers, as a punishment from Bahamut, until he atones in a proper manner. Make sure Bahamut informs the cleric why he no longer is granting the cleric power.

-argus

[Winged One]

You might also want to get the other followers of Bahumat in the party in on it somehow. PCs tend to listen to each other more than they listen to NPCs.

[Tsotha-lanti]

a 4th ed cleric by the rules can get away with anything, since 4th ed has no rules for Falling.

There is much argument over this, but PHB has no rules for clerics losing powers when they change alignment. Remember any cleric can start out unaligned, whatever alignment of their deity.

PHB recommends angels and more orthodox clerics express their displeasure some, to the erring cleric. Doesn't have to be really heavy, but he needs a hint.

Irrelevant. The DM is there to fill the void left by rules, because some things can't be covered by rules. (Falling wouldn't work the same in Eberron and Faerûn, for instance, so it's better to leave it to the DM than to make a rule about it.)

Unless the game is pretty heavy roleplaying, though, it's not worth bothering with. Clerics of any deity are supposed to do what adventurers do - kill monsters and look for treasure.

[Beleriphon]

Why not just recommend that he change alignment and the deity to Kord? He obviously doesn't want to play as one would expect of Bahamut's clerics, so encourage him to change to something more suiting.

[Mando Knight]

If a Cleric has 10 Wis, then he's playing the wrong class. Sure, he can pick attack powers that don't deal with his Wis, but his class features that define his role depend on his Wisdom. A cleric with 10 Wis can't effectively Turn Undead or use his Healing Lore to boost his healing powers. Plus, most of the Strength attacks target AC, which tends to be the strongest defense. (Exception: Rune of Peace, a somewhat nice Strength vs. Will daily which for a Paladin/MC Cleric could be a guaranteed activation of the Divine Challenge...)

A leader with 10 Wis and any higher mental stat would be better off as a Warlord.

The other two followers of Bahamut should crack down on their impious brother, as should any followers of Bahamut that they meet along the campaign. (When details about Metallic Dragons are released, I'd suggest sending in one (Probably Gold or Silver) that chastises the flagging cleric...) The higher level he gets, the more grievous his departure from Bahamut's teaching is, so the campaign's Metallic Dragons should really get on his case for blaspheming their father's name in the Paragon-Epic tiers...

(If I sound at any time like a Bahamut fanatic, it's probably mostly because he's a dragon god and actually upholds many of my own ideals. My view of him is pretty much as D&D's literal Crystal Dragon Jesus...)

[Hzurr]

If he's really that violent I would recommend meet him a whole party of his brothers.

Ironically, 2 of the other members of the party are his in-game brothers. One is a barbarian, and one is a fighter, yet the cleric is by far the most agressive.

Heh, the barbarian is actually by far the nicest and most polite (excluding when we go into battle. Then he kills things. Hard)

If a Cleric has 10 Wis, then he's playing the wrong class

Yeah, and normally that would be a bigger issue, but in the party we have another cleric, a warlord, and a paladin as well, so he really isn't needed to fill the "leader" roll. I agree, however, that he's playing the wrong class, but he really wanted to be a cleric for some reason.

[Siegel]

Hey. When Begging is against the law then threatening a beggar is completly ok and recomended...

[hamishspence]

DM filling void left by rules- problem is, sometimes you are expected to play by RAW for nearly everything. Players will be saying "Its not in the book!"

Personally. I prefer it that way. Corrupt clerics, "blackguards of bahamut" can exist- a bad guy lurking at the heart of the church- can't be identified by inability to cast, because he can cast. Especially good if he thinks he's a good guy and has gone evil through extremism.

[Prometheus]

Don't grant him spells when it acts contrary to the wishes of the deity. He is still his own man, but if he wants to be a vessel of his god he has to act like it.

[hamishspence]

I figure power as a pipeline to his deity's realm that, no matter what, can't be switched off.

Deity won't let his clerics initiate you by opening channel to its power, if your starting alignment is unacceptable, but once channel is open, stays open.

[LotharBot]

What you should do:

1) be direct with the player. Tell him in no uncertain terms that if he wants to be a cleric of Bahamut, he has to act in line with Bahamut.

2) understand his goal. Why does he want to be a cleric of Bahamut in particular? Does he understand what Bahamut is about? Is he trying to play out a redemption story, or is he just dense?

3) give him options. Let him know that he can change his behavior, or he can change which deity he's a cleric of, or he can change classes, or (if he wants to tell a redemption story) that you can work that into the campaign.

4) give him consequences. If he insists on playing a cleric of Bahamut AND insists on playing it "wrong", then have Bahamut stop granting him certain abilities. He can still hit stuff for x[W]+STR, but take away the bonuses that seem to be directly divine.

[LibraryOgre]

Hzurr, you left out the best part: He's incredibly racist towards anyone who isn't a dragonborn... and the human cleric is, too.

In my note to Hzurr (when playing understated character, I think letting the GM know why you're doing what you're doing is important), I actually used the phrase "a flumph woven out of reeds" to describe an alternate physical form for Bahamut that might not confuse this particular cleric so much.

[Tadanori Oyama]

I like to have the church monitor their clerics. If other Bahamant Clerics and Paladins start to hear about this guy who's being a little out of character than they might want to check up on him.

[Jimp]

Maybe he meets one of his superiors who watch him do something what violate his clerical oats. That one could either strip him from his titles or exclude him from the church or remind him of his duties. If he's really that violent I would recommend meet him a whole party of his brothers.

I found this hilarious. D&D's favourite breakfast cereal for the devout?

[littlechicory]

Maybe have his spells start backfiring or failing, leading into a quest where he has to shape up and prove himself to get them to work again.

... Or just have some higher-ups (MUCH higher-ups, since it's all too easy to underestimate the munchkins in your group) from the Church o' Bahamut come down to kick him into shape. That works, too.

[Hawriel]

YOu has a GM have the right to play the role of GOD. Whether its the GM GOD or the RPing GOD. This cleric is no true fallower of his god. If the god is LG of justice. I see a very just punishment layed down by the high holey in this excleric. You have that right the god has that right. What i hate the most about the rules over the last ten years is that WOTC stripped out the few RP guidlines that makes sence. The clerics piety being the most deluted. The cleric (and paladin) is one of the few classes that should have a frame work on how the PC behaves. D&D is a setting just like Norse and Greek myth whare the gods take an active roll in the daily struggles of mortals. Its very fitting for a god, or another cleric, to show up in some form or another and smack the holey crap out of any one who is using their power in sinful ways.

In short Behemat him/herself excomunicates the PC. That cleric can find another class like fighter or maybe another god who likes his style startes whispering in his ear.

[Oracle_Hunter]

4e explicitly places the regulation of worshipers in the hands of the mortal Church, not the gods. You can use that or you can not, but personally, I like it the way it is.

To that end, you can use any of a thousand different ways that mundane organizations control their members:

(1) Stories of the brutal priest of Bahamut reaches the ears of the head church. They issue an edict to their faithful that he is to be captured and brought in for judgment.

(2) A fellow priest of Bahamut witnesses the PC doing something bad and reprimands him. If he is rebuffed, then he will report the PC to the local church, to get the local chief priest to talk to the PC.

(3) One of the PC's victims complains to the local authorities. Noting that this is a heavily armed PC who is affiliated with a church, the local authority complains to the chief priest. The chief priest sends someone to rebuke the PC.

(4) Another cleric or paladin of Bahamut visits a town that the PCs have rolled through, and is surprised to see the villagers become hostile. He learns of the PC and vows to track him down and bring him to justice.

(5) The chief priest of a local Church hears of the PCs deeds and refuses to aid him unless he atones for his misdeeds.

In all honesty, though, this sounds like a player problem. Have him switch his god to Kord or someone better suited to his play style. If he really wants to play a cleric of Bahamut, then explain to him how a cleric of Bahamut should act, and say that if he doesn't try to follow his god then there will be consequences.

[Mando Knight]

Like I said before, Bahamut's followers stand in a somewhat unique position: some of the most powerful beings in the campaign world are Bahamut's followers and compatriots. The threat of a shapeshifting, nigh-omnipotent dragon's wrath at blaspheming his deity should be enough to keep most followers of Bahamut pious... and a powerful spellcaster who claims to be a priest of Bahamut yet threatens and extorts hapless peasants would definitely invoke the wrath of a Gold or Silver Dragon.

They'll want to have a chat first... Golds especially, since they like to parley with their foes to try to redeem them first... but if the cleric ignores the chastisement of his superiors too long, then he shouldn't be surprised when an angry dragon comes to rid the world of his blaspheming flesh.

[Dervag]

Hey. When Begging is against the law then threatening a beggar is completly ok and recomended...

Not necessarily.

For example, begging may be illegal. But assault may also be illegal, and when a man with a mace threatens you with death it's assault with a deadly weapon.

I figure power as a pipeline to his deity's realm that, no matter what, can't be switched off.

Deity won't let his clerics initiate you by opening channel to its power, if your starting alignment is unacceptable, but once channel is open, stays open.

If that's true, then the god will work to make sure that the powers he gives people don't get misused or used against his own interests. For example, what happens if a cleric of the fire god decides to work to start a new Ice Age? Obviously, the fire god would be opposed to this, and would need to know what is happening to prevent powers he granted from being used to harm his interests in the world.

So either he, or some of his servant clerics and creatures, should be monitoring the clerics to make sure they behave. Likewise if the cleric of a god of honor and justice stops acting honorably and justly.

[LibraryOgre]

Hey. When Begging is against the law then threatening a beggar is completly ok and recomended...

In the place we are currently, very little is against the law. They dislike slavers, not because they're slavers, but because they duck out of taxes.

[Bouregard]

I found this hilarious. D&D's favourite breakfast cereal for the devout?

May come as a shock to you but some people don't have english as their first language

But on the other hand, adventurers should had some variety in their daily diet. All those healing potions and meat-from-everything-that-not-wiggles-to-much seems to be pretty unhealthy.

[KillianHawkeye]

For example, what happens if a cleric of the fire god decides to work to start a new Ice Age? Obviously, the fire god would be opposed to this, and would need to know what is happening to prevent powers he granted from being used to harm his interests in the world.

What if this cleric created an Ice Age in order to elevate the overall importance of fire? I mean, if the world is covered in ice, heating and shelter become slightly more important than food and water. Wouldn't an Ice Age attract more and more people into worshipping this Fire God?

[Jimp]

May come as a shock to you but some people don't have english as their first language

Sorry, I didn't mean to be offensive. I just found the fact that it spelled oats funny .

[Sinfire Titan]

I found this hilarious. D&D's favourite breakfast cereal for the devout?

I found this funnier:

continually acts in a manor contrary to his diety

So he acts inside a house that opposes Bahamut 24-7?

Tip: Continually means "without end", not repeatedly. Manner is not spelled with an "o".

[Raum]

He appears to take the time to spell check what is obviously not his first language. Why not give him a pass on easily understood errors? His post is more understandable than some native English speakers on this forum.

[Quincunx]

Why pass up the opportunity to grin? Oats are silly. A sheaf of wheat as a heraldic device is silly enough, but the thought of an oatflake argent on a field vert just makes me giggle.

In your case, Bouregard, it did come as a shock. We thought we were safe enough poking fun at your English when you have a native's grasp upon it.

Ordinarily I'd recommend that you quest with him to change his deity, but if this is his rarity of a good background, I won't want to mess with it. Suppose you could throw a side-quest at him meant to temper his aggression and play up some other aspect of Bahamut-worship. If you don't want to single him out, test all of your players at once.

[RS14]

Just a guess here, but it sounds like he might have only picked Bahamut because he wanted a draconic deity. If you've got access to the Draconomicon, you might suggest he look through the other deities in it. It's 3.5, but the fluff should translate just fine.