Erfworld 130 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 117

[DevilDan]

The pliers give Ansom super-powered attack vs. uncroaked, but so what they are already weak (or at least weaker than your average dwagon), so yeah he'll toast them easily, but they can still hit with Wanda's bonus plus Parson hex wide bonus, just like Ceaser and his bats. Well, not quite the bats have luckamancy so...

I feel compelled to point out that those were probably the weakest types of dwagons, which was the reason why Ansom wasted extra moves to attack that hex at the back of the "fort" arrangement.

[slayerx]

I think Ansom's attack now is actually gonna be rather successful... considering Parson has suddenly gained an advantage, it seems better to maintain the suspense by having Ansom strike back and gain a foothold... also, we had the last klog that went into details about the garrison and mentions the Parson would need to plan where to make his last stand... in my mind, 10 to 1 this fight is gonna go down to the wire; the walls will fall and Parson will have to make his last stand at one of the other garrison points...

i'm thinking the last stand will be at the tower... parson's thinking might be troubled by Sizemore and what he has already made sizemore do and as such will want to make the tower the last defense instead so he does not need to rely on sizemore... Also, this will allow Wanda to go all out on the offense against the alliance with the boost she gets... and since they border airspace, assuming that certain rules say that taking a city takes more than one turn, Stanely will be able to jump into the fray to provide his few dwagons, a master class foolamancer and his own bonuses... those few dwagons might be of serious help with the alliance's lack of airforces... though i somehow think that both Jillian and Vinnie will head back to gobwinknob to assist Ansom, though not with the rest of transivito troops (King Don may not want to use up anymore troops)... one hell of a final battle right there...

[DevilDan]

So long as you have the moves and the units, I don't really expect a rule along the lines of "you must hold the three parts of the garrison for an entire turn" to exist. After all, once you have all the parts you've pretty much croaked everyone. I don't think Parson would plan to stage a counterattack from the tunnels against Ansom's numbers playing defense.

"Final battle." Wow. I guess we are getting down to the very wire.

[Name Lips]

The tower, courtyard, and dungeon have been set up as places to fall back to if the walls are breached. That makes me inclined to think they will be.

I foresee retreat to the tower, so:
we get to maintain Charlie as a possible influence in the fight
we get to see Parson use his sword
Wanda gets to use her undead fliers
and
Stanley gets to join the fight in a couple turns.

[Fuzzypaws]

I actually hope the rules for fighting within a city hex when the enemy has taken part of it, don't come into play with this chapter. My hope is that they are foreshadowing for the next chapter, when Stanley and Parson go on the offensive again and siege someone else.

Parson's supposed to be the ultimate warlord and we're down to the wire here, it'd be nice to have a plan of his actually come off completely successfully for once instead of being nickel and dimed away until it only offered slim gains in the end.

[Yogi]

Show of hands, here: Who has actually read the previous comic (minus the klog), in which Parson says that he's hoping to buy extra time, so that the coalition won't attack. I realize this forum has a huge hate-on for Ansom, but to forget what happened just a few pages back takes a whole new level of . . . flexible thinking.

[Charlicat]

Y'know instead of a buttshot, i would have used a nice close up view of the pliers in hands... kind like in a strip way back when Ansom emphasized that stanely's warlords were uncroaked... "they are my problem" and a shot of the pliers would tell you EXACTLY how he was gonna deal with the "problem"

Meh...I rather like the buttshot. It clearly illlustrates Ansom "talking out his boop" rather than using strategy to solve the problem.

Loved this installment...Sofa-King awesome!

[Oracle_Hunter]

Man, Sofa King gets all the good lines

It's nice to see Ansom have a chance to be all badass. I don't think he knows the uncroaked are "the weakest kind" - I think he's doing his duty to his men.

Oh, and he's really boopin' pissed. Man, this'll be a good fight, and Charlie's gettin' a simu-cast of the whole thing

[Zolem]

Man, Sofa King gets all the good lines

It's nice to see Ansom have a chance to be all badass. I don't think he knows the uncroaked are "the weakest kind" - I think he's doing his duty to his men.

Oh, and he's really boopin' pissed. Man, this'll be a good fight, and Charlie's gettin' a simu-cast of the whole thing

Simu-cast? Screw that, he's broadcasting it as pay-per-view to other rulers. AND taking bets on the outcome.

[Promakhonas]

Show of hands, here: Who has actually read the previous comic (minus the klog), in which Parson says that he's hoping to buy extra time, so that the coalition won't attack. I realize this forum has a huge hate-on for Ansom, but to forget what happened just a few pages back takes a whole new level of . . . flexible thinking.

That's not what he said. In the comic you indicated, he says

The Coalition won't want to attack this turn. If they wait, that gives me time for all kinds of stuff... siege raids, psy-ops, a deal with Charlie or someone in the Coalition. And if Ansom orders them to attack, his alliance just might crumble.

Parson isn't trying to maneuver Ansom into the position where he is most likely to do one of either attack or not attack. He's trying to maneuver *himself* into the position where no matter what Ansom chooses to do, Parson has a way to win. If Ansom chooses not to attack, good! More time for Parson to get his ducks all in a row, get Stanley back, do a deal, whatever. But, Ansom has chosen to rush headlong into a situation that his allies are dragging their heels on out of personal pride, which is also good for Parson. Given a choice, Parson would probably prefer Ansom not attacking, as that lessens the chance of RNG failboat. But I don't think he's upset about Ansom's attack - it's having the effect he hoped for. While Ansom is supreme commander, we can see that the coalition's generals have their own initiative and can pull out if things look like they're going badly.

Parson doesn't have to be able to win. Parson has to *look* so tactically superior to Ansom, so seemingly invincible and cruel (the troops on the wall was a stroke of brilliance, imo) that each of the coalition leaders want to get out and save their own skin. Ansom may be a good leader, but I doubt he has the ability to persuade the rest of the coalition of what he knows - if they just hurl enough troops at him, Parson *will* crumble within a few turns.

My personal thoughts on what the significance of this may be with regards to the work's rhetorical purpose(s) shall be kept private so as not to derail the thread.

[Aquillion]

Yeah. Like he said to Maggie, Parson wasn't sure what Ansom would do (although he was hoping he might do something stupid like this); the idea behind this strategy was just to leave Ansom with a bunch of bad options, not to force him to take one of them in particular.

[vrellum]

One way for things to work out as hinted is for Ansom to attack (perhaps without much support), lose the battle and the pliers. That would give Parson the pliers.

The retreat contigency could come into play on Charlie's turn. Charlie has already said he wanted the mathamacy device (hopefully with Parson) and the pliers. So if Parson gets the pliers, Charlie will attack. Charlie will almost surely be too strong for Parson's forces, especially in the open, so Parson will have to retreat. I think the tunnels are the likely spot.

The tunnels are the easiest to defend. Many of GK's troop get a bonus in the tunnels, I'd guess that a bunch of them leveled (granted they might only be level 2, but are most troops level 1?), and they've got a dirtamancer. It seems likely that the archons will be less effective in tunnels than in an open area.

[Kasavin]

Oh, I see what Ansom is doing. He has the flight ability, thus walls don't provide defenders protection from his attack. He's picked a spot where he'll fly over the wall and kill as many of the defending troops as he can while ground and siege units attempt to breach the same spot. Remember, numbers not level is what determines odds of a breach happening. The troops on the other side are presumably very low level (and many undead which he gets a significant bonus to attack). The gamble could make a breach possible, and it could also very easily get him killed. But if enough die, then the breach will occur, whether he lives to see it or not, then the vastly numerically superior armies of the coalition can have a field day taking on the remaining units on the wall.

Does anyone recall if troops can change zones (e.g. wall, tower) when its not their turn?

[Lunix Vandal]

I find myself wondering whether GK's wall-strength is based on the number of units on top, or on the total power of those units. (I don't recall that it's been said either way in-comic, beyond the strong implication that the infantry on top of the wall somehow adds to the wall's strength. I could be wrong though.)
[EDIT] Okay, yeah, Klog 11 says outright that more = better, but not how more = better. I think my points are still valid. Spoilertagged for being so long, though. [/EDIT]

If it's entirely raw-numbers-based...

Spoiler

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The Coalition's facing a wall potentially two or three or five times as strong as what they were expecting -- as of Klog #7, Parson only had 703 (Hob)Gobwin and Uncroaked infantry (705 if you count the two "Warlords in advanced decay"). As of now, that's minus whatever's left in the Tunnels/Dungeon, any Uncroaked that decayed between then and now, and anything that got croaked during the tunnel battle, but plus the "more than a thousand Jetstone infantry" that Wanda's just Uncroaked. And if Ansom committed all of the Marbits to the tunnels, the Coalition is looking at the possibility that there's another 1800+ Uncroaked Marbits beyond that. (Depending, of course, on both Ansom commiting the units and Wanda Uncroaking all of them.) SO. Early on it was noted (by Ansom himself, no less) that the Coalition had four times the force they needed to storm GK. Again, if GK's wall defenses are based solely on the number of units, that wall is potentially five times as strong as it was two turns ago. And the Coalition just potentially lost as much as 1/3 of its units. (If you don't count the Transylvito, Charlescomm, and Barbarian units, the Coalition had about 9700 units after the Dwagon gambit. Take out the Marbits and 1000 Jetstone units and they're down to around 6800.)

If it's sum-power-based...

Spoiler

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I may be wrong, but the wall may actually be pretty darned well near invincible (compared to what it was earlier), at least until those Uncroaked are removed. (To quote Klog 10, Croakamancers give a "huge" bonus to Uncroaked, emphasis Parson's.) Drop all 1-to-3 thousand Uncroaked into one massive stack, all with Wanda's "huge" leadership bonus, plus that of the Warlords she's just uncroaked, plus Parson's own hex-wide bonus, and all of a sudden Parson's effectively pulled out the "Transylvito-style advanced-heavy-infantry Doombat" tactic with thousands of units, not just hundreds. Now, Ansom's just decided to buzz the walls alone. Depending on how many of those Uncroaked are archers and how selective Ansom is in hitting them, he may or may not be utterly booped. And, of course, there's whatever air defenses are left after Wanda invoked cheat-code mode...

[Sieggy]

One way for things to work out as hinted is for Ansom to attack (perhaps without much support), lose the battle and the pliers. That would give Parson the pliers.

The retreat contigency could come into play on Charlie's turn. Charlie has already said he wanted the mathamacy device (hopefully with Parson) and the pliers. So if Parson gets the pliers, Charlie will attack. Charlie will almost surely be too strong for Parson's forces, especially in the open, so Parson will have to retreat. I think the tunnels are the likely spot.

The tunnels are the easiest to defend. Many of GK's troop get a bonus in the tunnels, I'd guess that a bunch of them leveled (granted they might only be level 2, but are most troops level 1?), and they've got a dirtamancer. It seems likely that the archons will be less effective in tunnels than in an open area.

But you're assuming that Charlie will attack at all. He's probably munching a large bowl of popcorn, and is watching all this with fascination. This has got to be the best entertainment he's had in a long time . . . And he's in no rush at all.

He knows that no matter how this turns out, he can still make a deal. If Ansom wins, he can get the Mathamancy artifact from him, and if necessary, can save Parson's butt (thus placing him under control) before Ansom can deliver the coup de gras. He has enough air / firepower there to do a quick extraction . . . And since he is nominally allied with RCC, he can move on their turn.

If Parson wins, he just makes him a job offer that includes far more than free copies and local faxes. Having watched thus far, I don't see him as wanting to take Parson on unless he has to. Since he lost one Archon to Parson already, he may be averse to losing more (he misses Jacklyn . . .). I don't know what Archons cost to pop, but I'll bet they're not cheap. I really don't see Charlie stepping in any time soon. He has nothing to lose by waiting, and potentially a great deal to gain.

Ansom, OTOH, is probably walking straight into a trap.

[Welf]

Oh, I see what Ansom is doing. He has the flight ability, thus walls don't provide defenders protection from his attack. He's picked a spot where he'll fly over the wall and kill as many of the defending troops as he can while ground and siege units attempt to breach the same spot. Remember, numbers not level is what determines odds of a breach happening. The troops on the other side are presumably very low level (and many undead which he gets a significant bonus to attack). The gamble could make a breach possible, and it could also very easily get him killed. But if enough die, then the breach will occur, whether he lives to see it or not, then the vastly numerically superior armies of the coalition can have a field day taking on the remaining units on the wall.

Ansom needs to croak only one unit: Wanda. Without her bonus the undead are just some weak units easy to croak. Only archers can attack him, and the undead fliers. Undead fliers he has a bonus against. It is very dangerous for him, but if he succeeds the battle is turned again.

[vrellum]

But you're assuming that Charlie will attack at all. He's probably munching a large bowl of popcorn, and is watching all this with fascination. This has got to be the best entertainment he's had in a long time . . . And he's in no rush at all..

Well he said something to effect of "I want that mathamacy artifact. I'd rather you join me, but I'll kill you if that's the only way to get it." Sounds like he will attack if he thinks he can win.

He knows that no matter how this turns out, he can still make a deal. If Ansom wins, he can get the Mathamancy artifact from him, and if necessary, can save Parson's butt (thus placing him under control) before Ansom can deliver the coup de gras. He has enough air / firepower there to do a quick extraction . . . And since he is nominally allied with RCC, he can move on their turn.

He can not move on RCC's turn. He is not allied with them in any way, shape or, form. He did tell RCC that he would assist if needed, but that would have to be on his turn.

Actually that might not be totally correct. He may be in contact with GK forces already and combat is not occuring because of "warlord control". If that's the case he may be able to activate his units on any turn. Still he can't move on RCC's turn.

If Parson wins, he just makes him a job offer that includes far more than free copies and local faxes. Having watched thus far, I don't see him as wanting to take Parson on unless he has to. Since he lost one Archon to Parson already, he may be averse to losing more (he misses Jacklyn . . .). I don't know what Archons cost to pop, but I'll bet they're not cheap. I really don't see Charlie stepping in any time soon. He has nothing to lose by waiting, and potentially a great deal to gain.

Ansom, OTOH, is probably walking straight into a trap.

I'm not sure that Parson can change jobs. Maybe he can, but I don't see him working for Charlie. The archons should be nigh indestructable in the open against Parson's troops. he doesn't have many archers. He has practically no flyers (just a few uncroaked and Charlie can destroy them easily) and little air defense. Charlie's got A LOT of archons and perhaps several warlords all ready to jump on GK.

However, Charlie can still ask Parson for the odds. If they're not good, he won't attack. Unless Parson can "finesse" the question so the answer is only partially correct.

[vrellum]

If Ansom (or any flyer) chooses to engage nonflyers, I'd assume the nonflyers can counter attack. Is that correct?

[Dragonath]

I think Ansom is gonna get booped by Wanda, her uncroaked and some Twoll heavies

[SteveD]

Ansom will kill many, but will he be croaked in the attempt?

Will Parson throw everything at him?

Will Wanda throw the airforce at him?

Will Parson engage him in single combat?

Will Stanley arrive in time to effect the battle?

Find out in next weeks exciting episode!

[SmartAlec]

I'm not sure that Parson can change jobs. Maybe he can, but I don't see him working for Charlie.

If Stanley gets back, perhaps Charlie can use the threat of his Archons laying waste to a victorious but almost-shattered Gobwin Knob to make him release Parson.

[slayerx]

Meh...I rather like the buttshot. It clearly illlustrates Ansom "talking out his boop" rather than using strategy to solve the problem.

y'know, if this latest gambit actually works for Ansom though, the great irony will be that the plans that come out of his Boop are actually more effective than the one that came out of his head =p

He knows that no matter how this turns out, he can still make a deal. If Ansom wins, he can get the Mathamancy artifact from him, and if necessary, can save Parson's butt (thus placing him under control) before Ansom can deliver the coup de gras. He has enough air / firepower there to do a quick extraction . . . And since he is nominally allied with RCC, he can move on their turn.

Actually Charlie isn't allied with anyone at the moment... he can only move on his own turn

however your point still does remain in that Charlie can swoop in at anytime... The archons are in parson's airspace which likely means they are considered to be in the same hex as gobwinknob; Since they are already in the cityzone they are free to move whenever they want as long as it's in the cityzone... units within a hex can take anykinds of moves they want within the hex and are not subject to waiting for their turn; for example, Parson had the option to attack Jillian's group with the dwagons first and did not need to wait until they were attacked because Jillian and the archons were in the same hex as the dwagons...

The only question is how he moves after the capture and extraction... is he forced to stay in the cityzone till his turn, or can he atleast give his troops a retreat order to pull them out of the hex? not really sure on this

Ansom, OTOH, is probably walking straight into a trap.

i doubt it... the trap in this case is over a thousand uncroaked troops...

in the case that Ansom did attack this turn, parson was likely relying on the sheer numbers of the uncroaked to be daunting enough that the fight will get too hard and discourage the alliance members causing a possible break... hell the sofa-king is on the brink of breaking...

Even if the uncroaked are the weakest kind their are still a huge number of them... if Parson had to do a calculation on the current situation, i would guess that he feels pretty good about Ansom being unable to breach the wall this turn... What may hppen though is that Ansom will do what seems like the impossible; charge in, pound the walls in one spot and break through despite how many troops parson has

Again, i really do think that Ansom's bull headed gambit is gonna turn out to be successful... its just how these things work, the moment you start gaining the slightest bit of confidence in you're position, that's the moment you loose... Ansom was confident about the tunnels, and lost big time; Parson is sounding a bit cocky with all those uncroaked and his recent vitory, and so now he is gonna get pounded... it all helps keep the suspense train rolling

[RMS Oceanic]

"The Sofa-King is Sofa-King finished here!"

That is the best piece of wordplay/censor evasion I've read in a while.

[ShinyBrowncoat]

I find myself wondering whether GK's wall-strength is based on the number of units on top, or on the total power of those units. (I don't recall that it's been said either way in-comic, beyond the strong implication that the infantry on top of the wall somehow adds to the wall's strength. I could be wrong though.)
[EDIT] Okay, yeah, Klog 11 says outright that more = better, but not how more = better. I think my points are still valid. Spoilertagged for being so long, though. [/EDIT]

I hate to add even more complexity to this, but Ansom tells the others not to spread out the siege, which implies that the wall isn't just a single combat zone, but that there are multiple places along the wall that could be breached, and presumably each of these have to be defended by some number of defenders (hence the 'is this a weak spot'?). So it can't just be the total number or total strength of all the units on the wall, it must be broken down into some number of wall sections.

[Voyager]

Actualy you have that backwards. Lee had the numbers which gave the South an advantage in the early war, but he sqandered them with bad tactics which is what enabled Grant to turn the war around...so Ansom is kinda like Lee with the numbers but poor tactics and Parson is Grant who's forced into teh defensive and needs a Geteysburg to urn the war around.

While the Confederacy started the war with more, and better trained, troops, it did not have the manpower or industrial base to replace losses. The Union did, and Grant was the first general willing to use that to its fullest advantage.

[The Old Hack]

Ansom may be acting desperately, but not quite as stupidly as I initially thought. I felt it would have been more like his usual form had he awaited the arrival of the rest of the siege before attacking, and then committed it all at once -- but with his Alliance about to crumble beneath him, this was a luxury he did not believe he could afford. By attacking at once, he at least gives the worst dissenters something to watch; if he succeeds, they may yet join in, he hopes. And if he fails, well, then he fails gloriously and heroically, which again would be more acceptable than merely having the Alliance fall apart and the assault die with a whimper before it was ever launched.

On Parson's side, I believe that yes, this is a trap. The question is whether the jaws of the trap are strong enough. I am looking forward to seeing precisely what it is.

[pclips]

"The Sofa-King is Sofa-King finished here!"

That is the best piece of wordplay/censor evasion I've read in a while.

Well to be fair it's a, shall we say, repurposed joke.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/4346/satur...live-sofa-king

Like the Cloth Golems (a phrase my friend Tom Smith used first in the song "House at Cthulhu Corner"), the Orlies (the idea to make creatures based on the O RLY owl macro that screeched in lolspeak was ours, but we obviously didn't make the original macro image), or even something like Parson's bumper sticker, we do put in a few elements that were jokes in their own right before Erfworld, but are hopefully funny in new ways because of thematic and story context.

This is an allusive and transformative use, a Fair Use, unlike a stand-up comic stealing a joke from another comic and putting his own act. But I know it could look like "stealing" a joke, so I just want to make it clear we are not claiming credit for "Sofa King" as a joke, any more than we would for the original "O RLY" owl.

It was just a really good name for a Royal side.

[RMS Oceanic]

Well, not being a regular viewer of SNL, seeing as how it's not broadcast in my country, I didn't realise this.

Still pretty clever, whoever came up with it.

[DevilDan]

Parson must also have some semblance of a plan for dealing with Charlie.

And don't forget that Charlie, a day before, was told by Parson precisely how many Archons would be needed to take the entire garrison. The equation may have changed slightly, but the point remains that it was presumably a feasible number of archons or Parson wouldn't have been so worried.

Not to nitpick, but what the Sofa King warlord does is threaten to call his overlord. The warlord may not necessarily have the authority to leave the coalition. Possibly only the Sofa King can make that call. (We don't know how loyalty compulsions works in a coalition, of course.)

The more this goes on, the more it seems that more free will is involved than we might have thought at first. Which is fine: I'm more interested in the story than in making sure that it follows a set of theoretical and mostly missing rules.

[Prowl]

Am I the only one starting to feel pity for Ansom? Guy gets himself outplayed left and right, seems to be getting into a "Oh hell, I'm not going to win, may as well just get this over with" mode.