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2008-12-03, 10:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Arena practice - Moby Vs Stella
Umm.. the sword. What else could it be holding?
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2008-12-03, 10:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Arena practice - Moby Vs Stella
The shield. My readied action was to use telekinesis, targeting whichever of the two was NOT held by a locked gauntlet, and disarm it.
You won't suffer a -4 penalty, as a shield is considered a melee weapon.
Opposed attack roll: (1d20+29)[33]
If successful, telekinesis has your shield, at the point you first came fully into view. From there, you may continue your charging bash of doom.
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2008-12-03, 10:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Arena practice - Moby Vs Stella
Oh sh...
You know, it never occurred to me that I could lock the shield too...
This is bad. Very bad. Say, would the loss of my shield make, by any chance, Divine Shield irrelevant?
Opposed Disarm check: (1d20+13)[28]
(Is a heavy steel shield considered a light weapon? If so, subtract 4 from the above roll. Not that it matters.)Avatar lawfully nicked from this xkcd strip.
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2008-12-03, 10:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Arena practice - Moby Vs Stella
Divine Shield's text states that it grants your shield the bonus. Losing that would, in fact, knock your charisma bonus off your AC.
And no, it's not a light weapon. You can power attack with it.
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2008-12-03, 10:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Arena practice - Moby Vs Stella
Did the attack hit? Do you have any tricks up your sleeve? DR, resistances, something that can block Power attack? (2 of that damage was PA, btw)
I ask because, here's a funny thing: I count 102 damage and I forgot to roll my truedeath 1d6 Vs Undead.
Here it is: (1d6)[4]
So what's the status?
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2008-12-03, 10:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Arena practice - Moby Vs Stella
That'll get me, though if you'd be so kind as to explain the +70, I'd appreciate it.
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2008-12-03, 11:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Arena practice - Moby Vs Stella
If you open the spoiler of the post in the previous page, you'll see it contains the breakdown for attack and damage:
Damage: 1d8+3 Weapon + 13 Cha (from Slippers of Battledancing, instead of Strength because I've moved 10 ft) + 39 Charging Smite + 13 divine might + 2 PA + 4d6 Law Bearer + 13 gauntlets = 1d8+70 + 4d6 slashing + 13 fire damageAvatar lawfully nicked from this xkcd strip.
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2008-12-03, 11:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Arena practice - Moby Vs Stella
If you open the spoiler of the post in the previous page, you'll see it contains the breakdown for attack and damage:
Damage: 1d8+3 Weapon + 13 Cha (from Slippers of Battledancing, instead of Strength because I've moved 10 ft) + 39 Charging Smite + 13 divine might + 2 PA + 4d6 Law Bearer + 13 gauntlets = 1d8+70 + 4d6 slashing + 13 fire damage
Charging Smite breakdown: Mighty Smiting weapon property gives +2 to attack and damage when you smite. 11 paladin levels + 2 = 13 damage, and Charging Smite multiplies that by 3.Avatar lawfully nicked from this xkcd strip.
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2008-12-03, 11:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Arena practice - Moby Vs Stella
I'm referring to sources for the above.
Though a weapon that adds +2 to damage when you smite does not add +2 to your smite damage. It would not multiply.
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2008-12-03, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Arena practice - Moby Vs Stella
Originally Posted by Charging SmiteOriginally Posted by Mighty Smiting
That means you are alive, I mean undead, and about to whack me to oblivion. Right?
(And now I really wish I had listened to your advice and taken the greater Truedeath crystal, heh.)Avatar lawfully nicked from this xkcd strip.
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2008-12-03, 11:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Arena practice - Moby Vs Stella
Ughh... sorry about the double posts, the forums are really frustrating at this point. It takes me a lot of time to refresh and open pages.
Is there any other source you'd like clarifications about?
Gauntlets are Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows, and add (Cha bonus) fire damage to every melee attack.Last edited by KevLar; 2008-12-03 at 11:52 AM.
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2008-12-03, 11:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Arena practice - Moby Vs Stella
Build's not focused on Crits, remember? :)
Even so, here we go:
Can't heal (enough), and so it comes down to damage. I doubt this will get you, BUT:
Telekinesis (continued): Grapple attempt on you. This is a melee touch attack.
Lurk Augment: Deceptive Strike (this renders you without your dexterity modifier. It works against uncanny dodge, provided you have less than 11 levels in classes that grant uncanny dodge)
Touch attack vs Flat-footed AC: (1d20+29)[44]
If hit, opposed grapple: (1d20+29)[44]
If won: (1d3+1)[3] - your DR of 5 = 0 damage.
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2008-12-03, 12:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Arena practice - Moby Vs Stella
Touch attack hits, of course.
Opposed grapple check: not rolling, I automatically fail.
A question though. If you use the Combat Maneuver version of Telekinesis, shouldn't you maintain Concentration in order to keep using it? So shouldn't you roll a check Vs damage dealt, since you were already using Telekinesis when you got hit?Avatar lawfully nicked from this xkcd strip.
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2008-12-03, 12:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Arena practice - Moby Vs Stella
I looked at that in the SRD, for just this question. Here is what I found (relevant section bolded):
Originally Posted by SRD, abilities
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2008-12-03, 12:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Arena practice - Moby Vs Stella
Oh, right. OK then.
For my next round, I'll tell you what I do without spoilers, because I'm not sure how this works.
I want to use the Shadow Jaunt maneuver as a standard action. I have no idea if it provokes (doesn't say anything about that in the text, and oddly enough it's not described as a supernatural ability).
Also, technically, using maneuvers is not among the actions you are allowed to do while grappling. But can you think of any reason why it shouldn't? (Other than ToB being published long after the SRD?)
Thoughts?Avatar lawfully nicked from this xkcd strip.
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2008-12-03, 01:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Arena practice - Moby Vs Stella
From ToB:
To initiate a maneuver or a stance, you must be able to move. You do not need to be able to speak. You initiate a maneuver by taking the specified initiation action. A maneuver might require an immediate, swift, move, standard, or full-round action to initiate. The process of initiating a maneuver is similar to that of casting a spell or manifesting a psionic power, although there are some key differences (see below).
Enemy interference might make certain maneuvers impossible to complete. For example, if an enemy who readied an action to trip you when you started your turn knocks you prone, you would not be able to use a maneuver that required you to charge. Similarly, if you begin your turn grappled or pinned, you might find that most of the maneuvers available to you simply won’t be of any use until you get free.
You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when you initiate a maneuver or stance unless its description explicitly says otherwise.
So again. Thoughs? :)Avatar lawfully nicked from this xkcd strip.
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2008-12-03, 01:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Arena practice - Moby Vs Stella
I don't see a problem with it. Go ahead and shadow jaunt.
Martial maneuvers are Extraordinary abilities unless it states otherwise. Such abilities generally do not provoke.
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2008-12-03, 01:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Arena practice - Moby Vs Stella
OK. :)
Stella swears like a sailor and poof! disappears.
Standard action (you guessed it), Shadow Jaunt. I reappear to E-20 ground level (LoS and LoE established, so that Shadow Jaunt applies), and promptly dive inside the ground. Move action to E-21, altitude 10 ft, inside the pillar all the time. No need to hide, but here's my Move Silently: (1d20+31)[44].
Is the shield floating just below the ceiling?
Spoilerfree action: reallocate Law Devotion to AC.
AC: 10 + 10 Armor + 4 Dex + 2 natural + 5 Swordsage +7 Law Devotion = 38
Touch AC: 26
Flat-footed AC: 34
HP: 103
Divine Shield Rounds left: 1 (no shield, though...)
Rebuke Undead left: 15
Law Devotion rounds left: 5
Smite left: 7
1 granted Crusader maneuver (last one)Avatar lawfully nicked from this xkcd strip.
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2008-12-03, 01:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Arena practice - Moby Vs Stella
You're still grappled after you Jaunt. The only reason grapples usually end upon a dimension door is that you are no longer in the same square as your enemy. However.... Telekinesis isn't in a square. It has a target. You. As long as I am targeting you from a grapple, and as long as you remain a legal target, telekinesis is on you. Down side? It can't damage you, I have to use standard actions to maintain it, so I can't damage you, and it lasts no more than 13 more rounds. I can get 1 round of attacks on you with belt of battle, but I can't augment them (Belt uses the swift action that augments need), so there's no way that attack will drop you.
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2008-12-03, 03:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Arena practice - Moby Vs Stella
LOL.
Well, I don't see from where exactly it is derived that the target of Combat Maneuver (or Telekinesis in general) is poor Me, but I'll roll with it.
Suggestion: Since the forums are so frustrating, would you like to speed this up a bit? For as long as you maintain the grapple, I'll attempt to Escape. I have a +15 to Escape Artist, and you have a +29 to Grapple, right? You can use the Belt of Battle if you wish. If you are OK with that, here we go:
Rounds 7 to ??
Escape Artist attempts:
1 (1d20+15)[25]
2 (1d20+15)[23]
3 (1d20+15)[17]
4 (1d20+15)[24]
5 (1d20+15)[22]
6 (1d20+15)[19]
7 (1d20+15)[27]
8 (1d20+15)[16]
9 (1d20+15)[21]
10 (1d20+15)[33]
11 (1d20+15)[29]
12 (1d20+15)[16]
13 (1d20+15)[24]
(If you're not OK with that, it's your turn again.)
SpoilerI'll calculate maneuvers etc once we know what round we're in. If Law Devotion ends, I'll burn 3 Rebuke attempts to activate it again as a swift action. In the spoiler above, I forgot to include to AC a +2 insight from stance and a +1 dodge (from Dodge). So:
AC: 10 + 10 Armor + 4 Dex + 2 natural + 5 Swordsage +7 Law Devotion +2 stance +1 dodge = 41
Touch AC: 29
Flat-footed AC: 36
HP: 103
Rebuke Undead left: 15 (or 12, if Law Devotion ended)
Law Devotion rounds left: ?? (will calculate later)
Smite left: 7Avatar lawfully nicked from this xkcd strip.
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2008-12-03, 03:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Arena practice - Moby Vs Stella
I auto-win all rounds that I intend to use. Effect will end before round 10, and I auto-win all rolls prior.
On round 1: Move action: Move 60 feet towards your shield.
On round 2: Move action: Sheath my longsword.
On round 3: Move action: Pick up your shield.
On round 4 and 5: Move to A 40.
Round 6: Voluntarily end the effect by ceasing concentration.
Move: Up into the ceiling. Move will continue, east of A 40. ends where A 51 would be.
Move 2: to -I 51- (elevation 45)
I will spend the next 10 minutes in the wall, staying absolutely still, taking no actions, and thus, making no sound. I have total concealment, I'm completely unable to be detected by hearing, and I'm just waiting for your effect that lets you see me to wear out.
Assuming you don't find me, in 10 minutes, I'll post my next action.
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2008-12-03, 04:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Arena practice - Moby Vs Stella
You moved out of the arena or am I looking at the wrong map all this time?
I mean, I know no one has thought to disallow moving out of the arena, but I thought it was a given.
Also. As soon as she is free from the force effect, Stella dives to the ground and stays inside the ground. She doesn't want to get caught in that thing EVER again. One round, still inside the ground, will be spent for Adaptive Style. Another round will be spent to move, still inside the ground, to a random direction.
After that, here is the pattern:
Move action inside the ground (or wall, or ceiling) 30 ft, 5 ft up to emerge (with concealment) and look out as a free action with Quick Recnonnoiter, and standard action to ready an action. Next round? Dive in (5 ft), move (30 ft), emerge (5ft), repeat.
Direction: Towards the center of the arena (ground). Towards a wall, say north. Up the wall. Up the ceiling. Towards the center of the arena (ceiling). Stay there. Pop back and forth (emerge, look, get back inside). Keep readied action indefinitely.
Let's see who will come out first.
*wonders idly about a possible time limit to each match (I mean, without one, I might as well declare than I'm waiting until tomorrow to activate the Scout's Headband again. That's awful.) and what on earth Casper would do Vs an opponent with constant See Invisibility*
Spoilerrebuke is down to 15. (Stella renews Law Devotion once, while she's still grappling, but once she's in the ground she doesn't bother again.)
Condition for Readied action: any telekinesis effect.
Readied action: move action, 5ft back inside the ground (wall, ceiling) and 30 ft to a random direction, always inside the ground.
The action occurs just before the action that triggers it.Avatar lawfully nicked from this xkcd strip.
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2008-12-03, 04:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Arena practice - Moby Vs Stella
For telekinesis, the target is "See text". For the combat maneuver area:
Originally Posted by SRD, Telekinesis
Against a creature with constant see invis? It likely won't be incorporeal. I'll have ethereal shifting, and such. I admit, my damage isn't what I'd like. I may change it some more.
The alternate would have been to treat it as a thrown ranged weapon, if we can't go out of the arena, and throw it 50 feet away. (range increment 10, 5 increments. That would put it untouchable, outside the arena. Either way, I intend to put your shield where it won't be gotten. Only chance I've got is to lower your AC, AND be invisible. I'm at freakin' 1 HP. That's like, feathers kill me territory.
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2008-12-03, 05:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Arena practice - Moby Vs Stella
For the other? Anytime we've entered the floor or the ceiling completely, we've left the arena, by that standard. I just carried it farther.
An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own.
Either way, I intend to put your shield where it won't be gotten. Only chance I've got is to lower your AC, AND be invisible. I'm at freakin' 1 HP. That's like, feathers kill me territory.
2) You can use Deadly Touch on yourself. You won't be full again, and you're still (possibly) one successful attack away from dropping, but that's undeath for ya. Few hp. I sympathize.
3) If you don't intend to come out at all, there's obviously nothing we can do to end this. At least I pop out and look from time to time. So we can declare this a (very unfair) draw. Or we can (indeed) impose a time limit, and make up a rule about it. I dunno.Avatar lawfully nicked from this xkcd strip.
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2008-12-03, 05:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Arena practice - Moby Vs Stella
Talic, forgive me, but this is how I see it.
There's tactical fighting.
That's awesome. You do that better than anyone I've played with so far. It's challenging and interesting. It can be frustrating too, but in an absolutely good way.
Then there's cautious fighting.
That's wise. You are doing it, and I am (occasionally) doing it, and everyone should do it.
And then there's no fighting at all.
That's what you're doing. Delaying and evading your opponent, so that you can attack from a position of advantage, is one thing. Taking no risk at all is quite another. If you simply refuse to attack because it could kill you, it's not a fight any more. It's conceding.
Now, I realize I'm partly to blame for that. I'm the one who (foolishly) said "let's see who comes out first". I apologize. And I'll gladly take it back. But only if you intend to actually try to fight me. So what do you say?Last edited by KevLar; 2008-12-03 at 05:56 PM.
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2008-12-03, 08:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Arena practice - Moby Vs Stella
1) You stated ruled for incorporeal. We're not. We're Ethereal. That makes a world of difference as to what's allowed. However, I'll rewind to that Round 6, if you like, and modify the turn so that I don't go 60 feet into the wall.
And yes, actually, I'm delaying to attack from a position of advantage. If you can't see me, the hit and run of the build really takes off. It's a rather long delay, but I'm confident I can do it with partial cover.
That said, I did go toe-to-toe with you once. Got knocked to 1 hp. So now, if I am to have any shot at winning, I need to be able to have a chance to hit you repeatedly without counter hits. That's not an easy thing to do.
Here's my proposed idea. Neither of us will spend more than 1 full round in total cover at any one time.
That's enough to reposition, to ready something in hiding, and come back out.
However, we must pick a square and be in it. Being halfway between an "in the ground" square and a "not in the ground" square, so as to have partial concealment? not RAW. RAW, the only way you can occupy more than one square is to be a large creature. So we're either at 0 elevation, and visible, or at -5 and in the ground. There's no halfways on that one. Difficult terrain can offer concealment enough to hide, while still being visible, and that's fine. But every square on the board is a bit excessive.
Sound good?
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2008-12-04, 06:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Arena practice - Moby Vs Stella
By RAW, you have a point. However, my main problem wasn't the illegality of the move, it was... the un-sportsmanship. If we fight in an arena, we fight in an arena. I have assumed that the ground and ceiling is part of the arena, which is way I've been spending some time in there. I wouldn't move outside the map. (Actually, I did that when I said I go in the wall. My bad.) You want to disallow that (ground, walls, ceilings), and make it so we can only enter the pillars? Absolutely fine with me. Tactical warfare, yay!
And yes, actually, I'm delaying to attack from a position of advantage. If you can't see me, the hit and run of the build really takes off. It's a rather long delay, but I'm confident I can do it with partial cover.
Here's my proposed idea. Neither of us will spend more than 1 full round in total cover at any one time.
That's enough to reposition, to ready something in hiding, and come back out.
However, we must pick a square and be in it. Being halfway between an "in the ground" square and a "not in the ground" square, so as to have partial concealment? not RAW. RAW, the only way you can occupy more than one square is to be a large creature. So we're either at 0 elevation, and visible, or at -5 and in the ground. There's no halfways on that one. Difficult terrain can offer concealment enough to hide, while still being visible, and that's fine. But every square on the board is a bit excessive.
Originally Posted by Rules Compendium, p.65
There's also this part:
Originally Posted by Incorporeal Subtype
... Aaaaand this is what I've been doing. I believe it's legal. Arguments for or against?Last edited by KevLar; 2008-12-04 at 06:16 AM.
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2008-12-04, 06:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Arena practice - Moby Vs Stella
I think that 5 feet into the walls and such is fine.
Depends on how it's done. The plucky guy dancing away from the raging meatstick for that length of time might get boring, but engaged, it's hard to argue. By the same token, if we're talking about crowd spectacles, invisibility and hiding would be hard sells, as would a great many other things (1 hit KO's? you know how many people got mad at the 6 second Tyson fight? all of em). So I can see a tactical argument, but not a "will of the spectator" argument.
However when you're entirely inside of walls (per the other part), you have total cover unless attacking. So the part about gaining cover and object sizes? It's not an object. You're entirely in the floor, so we use the second part. You have total cover. This means:
No need for hide checks. You can't be seen.
AND
It works both ways. You can't see.
Now, when you attack, you have cover, but not total. That means that you can see and be seen. But that only applies when you attack. Not when you're moving.
So, if you want to see, you either need to:
move outside the square (and lose cover from the floor/wall/ceiling)
or
make an attack outside the wall, at which point you still have cover, and can see into the arena. At that point, you could hide to avoid being seen). Once the attack's over, you're back in the wall, and once again have total cover.
If I remember correctly, incorporeal creatures can "sense" when something is outside the wall 5 feet away. I'd have to have a bit of booko time to find that though, and I'm AFB right now.
Now, the object thing? Works well if you're hiding in a statue, or under a table, but has no bearing when your entire square is covered. That's when you're inside a wall/floor, and those rules apply.
EDIT: Basically, 1 square is total cover. 1 square is no cover. The only time you can be between the two (with cover only) is while you attack (per the last SRD exerpt you posted). You've been kinda moving around in a permanent state of half-in.Last edited by Talic; 2008-12-04 at 06:34 AM.
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2008-12-04, 06:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Arena practice - Moby Vs Stella
Yes, it's the same as pinpointing invisible opponents, with a +2 to your Listen check (because sound is carried better in solid objects).
EDIT- Though, logically, that +2 shouldn't apply when we're both ethereal, I think. We're on another plane, we don't interact with material objects at all, all they do is block line of sight.
Accepted.
Would it be fair to assume that the pillars (in particular) aren't completely square blocks of granite (that would be hard to visualize), and therefore can be used for cover? At least the edges (top squares, and squares that are adjacent to normal terrain).
And come to think of it, I don't know why I thought they were pillars all this time, they are described as rocks. Huh.
Accepted for ground, ceiling and walls. You are right, I shouldn't be able to do that. Sorry....
But I believe this method should work for the rocks. Do you agree?Last edited by KevLar; 2008-12-04 at 07:03 AM.
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2008-12-04, 07:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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