Results 1 to 9 of 9
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Bandededed's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    A bike with no handlebars
    Gender
    Male

    Default Purchasing Levels (3.5 houserule)

    I once heard that before 3.x, all the classes advanced along a different XP track. Each class had a separate need for advancing in level, and that was part of the balancing factor for that (those?) edition(s).

    Now, in 3.5, fighter is used frequently as a 2 level dip class, druid / cleric / wizard win, and monk is almost unplayable without houserules or, perhaps, partially charged wands *cough*. Ignoring that, however -

    I figure if we can bring the XP difference back, with a little simplification of the CR = XP rules and the addition of a level purchasing system, then the balances of the game will be brought, perhaps, a little more together, without the need for any actual changes to classes.

    * For this model, I'm throwing out the multi-classing penalty, because this system should monitor itself.

    ** Please post if you see anything that can easily become broken by the RAW of this text, so we can fix it.

    Level Purchasing:
    As a person (or monster, etc) adventures, they collect experience from defeating monsters, overcoming challenges, and being generally awesome. The equivalent XP any adventurer gains from an encounter is
    100 + (10 x (Encounter's CR - Party's ECL)

    As the adventurer collects experience, they may spend their accumulated Experience on any number of things - magic items, certain spells, etc. Or, should they amass enough, they can increase their power by gaining another class level. The table below shows the cost of purchasing a level. Of course, you begin play with enough experience to have your first level. This represents your life's training and experience's up until the time you begin adventuring (if you begin at level one, that is).

    {table=head]Class Name | XP Cost per level
    Barbarian | 1200
    Bard | 1200
    Cleric | 1500
    Druid | 1500
    Fighter | 1125
    Monk | 1050
    Paladin | 1200
    Ranger | 1200
    Rogue | 1350
    Sorcerer | 1350
    Wizard | 1500[/table]

    Class levels and party CR:
    Now, obviously, this system requires a change in the way that experience per encounter is generated; specifically, where the party CR is calculated. In a perfect world, the parties CR would be equivalent to any single classed barbarian, bard, paladin, or ranger's level in the party. However, due to multiclassing, missed sessions, etc., players may not have similar total experience values. Instead, simply keep track of the average party members total experience (what they would have if they didn't spend it on levels, items, etc.) and divide that number by 1200, then divide again by how many players are in the party. Round up, and you have your parties general CR. Be sure to be careful, as this formula may give a slightly high CR for your party.

    Well, that's it for the interesting part from me. Any thoughts?

    * I left out prestige classes on purpose for now. I'd rather have this work for the base classes before I try to muddle through those.
    Last edited by Bandededed; 2008-12-02 at 08:04 PM.
    My Homebrew
    Avatar thanks to Kwarkpudding!!

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Kroy's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Olympia, near Seattle, US

    Default Re: Purchasing Levels (3.5 houserule)

    I like the idea, I am interested in how this turns out.
    Spoiler
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland St. Jude View Post
    There is no mind control, citizen. Please go back to your fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Corm View Post
    Kroy speaks the truth.
    Avatar courtesy of Shades of Grey.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Bandededed's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    A bike with no handlebars
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Purchasing Levels (3.5 houserule)

    Bump for luck!

    Does anyone have any ideas for making this better? Or see an easy exploit? Or heck, does anyone like it other than Sirek (and I'm glad you like it)?
    My Homebrew
    Avatar thanks to Kwarkpudding!!

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Orc in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Ninjaland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Purchasing Levels (3.5 houserule)

    The problem is that in previous editions there was little or no multiclassing. Playing with this system without MC is fine.

    The problem is that the typical dip classes are used as such because they are frontloaded and you can get maximum benefit for low expenditure, while later levels just aren't worth it. This system when used with MC exacerbates the problem by making the dip classes cheaper.

    The multiclassing penalty should not be thrown out for this system, but increased. I would say double the cost of the first level in a new class, 1.5x cost for second, regular cost for later levels. It would not preclude all multiclassing, but avoid the troublesome munchkin dips.

    My thoughts.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Shinobi_Guyver's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2008

    Default Re: Purchasing Levels (3.5 houserule)


    Interesting idea you have, Bandededed.

    I could see this working well with spells or Item Crafting when there's a high XP cost. You won't have to lose a level, but instead delay leveling up.

    This idea might work nice with Modern/Future type campaigns, as well. Instead of using XP to level up, you could spend the XP to improve equipment, mecha, ships, etc.
    Click my banner and be taken to my Guyver conversion for D&D 4E!


  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Bandededed's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    A bike with no handlebars
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Purchasing Levels (3.5 houserule)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lert, A. View Post
    The problem is that in previous editions there was little or no multiclassing. Playing with this system without MC is fine.

    The problem is that the typical dip classes are used as such because they are frontloaded and you can get maximum benefit for low expenditure, while later levels just aren't worth it. This system when used with MC exacerbates the problem by making the dip classes cheaper.

    The multiclassing penalty should not be thrown out for this system, but increased. I would say double the cost of the first level in a new class, 1.5x cost for second, regular cost for later levels. It would not preclude all multiclassing, but avoid the troublesome munchkin dips.
    Well, for one, I always hated the Multi-classing penalty, as it made little or no practical sense within whatever world I came up with or was playing in.

    Second, you're taking something that was originally simple, which I complicated, and complicating it further. While my way is still rather simple (since you do have a table with the values on it for you), your way would increase book keeping alarmingly - especially if they wished to play something with several different classes.

    Third, the only "dip class" that I have actually made cheaper is the fighter - and that's because the class was fairly badly designed from the outset. Additionally, note that the fighter is only 75 xp less than the average (which is 1200).

    That is, of course, only if you don't consider the monk a dip class.

    Lastly, I have yet to determine the price of any of the non-core classes. What you are afraid of - that all of the classes that are great for one-level dips will be frighteningly cheap - may not even come to pass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinobi Guyver
    Interesting idea you have, Bandededed.

    I could see this working well with spells or Item Crafting when there's a high XP cost. You won't have to lose a level, but instead delay leveling up.

    This idea might work nice with Modern/Future type campaigns, as well. Instead of using XP to level up, you could spend the XP to improve equipment, mecha, ships, etc.
    Thanks! The crafting I had though of, and I had even thought of allowing the party crafter to use the xp of whomever is buying or asking for something to be crafted, in order to reduce the price. Thus, a low level adventurer might end up with several highly magical items.

    Now, that Modern/Future type campaign idea, that's something I didn't think about at all. And it'd definitely be interesting, and it does have a relationship with my earlier.

    COMING SOON:
    The XP cost of the Prestige Classes in the DM's guide.
    Last edited by Bandededed; 2008-12-02 at 08:00 PM.
    My Homebrew
    Avatar thanks to Kwarkpudding!!

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Shinobi_Guyver's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2008

    Default Re: Purchasing Levels (3.5 houserule)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bandededed View Post
    Thanks! The crafting I had though of, and I had even thought of allowing the party crafter to use the xp of whomever is buying or asking for something to be crafted, in order to reduce the price. Thus, a low level adventurer might end up with several highly magical items.

    Now, that Modern/Future type campaign idea, that's something I didn't think about at all. And it'd definitely be interesting, and it does have a relationship with my earlier.

    Perhaps the idea of others helping pay for the XP cost of items isn't such a good idea, and you state the reason why, too.

    If a low level characters gets high leveled/powered items, then that makes things easier for them, leading the DM to increase the challenge (sometimes by several levels), which would lead to massive XP gain by the players and rapid leveling...

    As an extension of this (if it isn't already done), a variation of the XP/Leveling system used in the Fable games could be applicable. It'd be especially useful in Modern/Future games because the XP gained from using technology can be cashed in/redeemed for technological upgrades.

    A Modern/Future list may look like this:
    • Body
    • Skill
    • Magic/Psionic
    • Technology


    P.S. Keep in mind I've only played the first Fable game, maxing out everything and gaining all items. I haven't played Fable II yet, though I hope to do so soon.

    P.P.S. I'm not trying to steal your thread Bandededed, I just have all these ideas, and am trying to throw them out there for others to use, hence my sig on the Wizard forums.
    Click my banner and be taken to my Guyver conversion for D&D 4E!


  8. - Top - End - #8
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Bandededed's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    A bike with no handlebars
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Purchasing Levels (3.5 houserule)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinobi_Guyver View Post
    Perhaps the idea of others helping pay for the XP cost of items isn't such a good idea, and you state the reason why, too.

    If a low level characters gets high leveled/powered items, then that makes things easier for them, leading the DM to increase the challenge (sometimes by several levels), which would lead to massive XP gain by the players and rapid leveling...
    Ah, but the way I calculate the CR for any given party is different than it was in core (not to mention that the extra XP gain would be several levels (3 perhaps) x 10, or 30 per encounter. Bad, but not breaking). However, Party CR is now determined by the average of the parties total experience (as in, what they would have if they had never spent any) divided by 1200. Since the XP per character is determined by the parties CR, I believe that there isn't any real problem with upgrading stuff rather than levels, if you should so choose.

    As a side note, this upgrading of stuff is actually easier for classes with low XP values to do while retaining an edge - and harder on the classes with high XP, which is accidental, but does reduce the power of full casters even more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinobi_Guyver View Post
    As an extension of this (if it isn't already done), a variation of the XP/Leveling system used in the Fable games could be applicable. It'd be especially useful in Modern/Future games because the XP gained from using technology can be cashed in/redeemed for technological upgrades.

    A Modern/Future list may look like this:
    • Body
    • Skill
    • Magic/Psionic
    • Technology


    P.S. Keep in mind I've only played the first Fable game, maxing out everything and gaining all items. I haven't played Fable II yet, though I hope to do so soon.

    P.P.S. I'm not trying to steal your thread Bandededed, I just have all these ideas, and am trying to throw them out there for others to use, hence my sig on the Wizard forums.
    Well, I'm just going to have to believe you with the Modern/Future stuff, as I have limited experience with the system. And by limited I mean none.

    That also goes for Fable...

    And I have no problem with what you're doing - It's not something I could do myself (as stated above), but if you wish to try, feel free to post it here (I'll add it up top, credited to you, if you wish) or start another thread or whatever. I post my stuff on a public forum so people can gank it, modify it, make pasta shaped like it, etc., and am happy to see what other people do with it.

    Edit: Those prestige classes might have to wait a bit longer - Finals + Paper + 20 hours of work = no time to do anything
    Last edited by Bandededed; 2008-12-03 at 10:58 PM.
    My Homebrew
    Avatar thanks to Kwarkpudding!!

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Fostire's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Catching 'em all
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Purchasing Levels (3.5 houserule)

    I don't know about prior editions but in 2e AD&D every class had their own xp table and they advanced on a curve. Some classes leveled faster at higher levels and others at lower levels (wizard was always the slowest though).
    I think one of the player's option books had a nice graph to compare the different curves.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •