Gestalt Arena Practice - Talic and Incendius

[Incendius]

You didn't roll your intelligence damage right.

[Talic]

Broken roll: (1d4)[4]

That's a total of 13 damage/drain.

[Incendius]

You miscalculated the power point cost of your ability. It costs 8 power points to use your flat footed attack, 5 power points to use your ability damage.

Which means you only have 2 points to augment, meaning if it does hit, it does either 3 damage and 4 drain is not a flat footed attack, or does 13 damage and isn't a flat footed attack, and therefore doesn't hit because of wall of blades.



Immediate Action: Wall of Blades

(1d20+45)[56]

AC Result is 56

[Incendius]

Free Action: 5 foot step
Free Action: Activate Boots of Speed
Free Action: Enter Whirling Rage

Using my extra attack from haste, and my extra attack from Whirling Rage (Different types of Extra Attack, Whirling Rage is more similar to Rapid Shot)

If any of my integral attacks miss I change the sequence in the post below (Basically making the missed attack again, but further down.)


Disarming your Shield, no attack of opportunity because I am 10ft away, opposed attack roll.
Disarm Attack - (1d20+47)[65] (You take it at -4 Penalty for Small, and assuming the shield counts as a weapon, if it does not you take an additional -4)

Haste Attack, Sundering your Longsword Opposed Attack (You Take -4 On this Roll for Size), Adamantine Attack ignores DR.
Attack, PA 5 (1d20+46)[58]
Damage (2d6+45)[53]

Sundering Cleave, Against You
Attack, PA 5 (1d20+38)[43]
Damage (2d6+45)[50]

Whirling Rage Attack, Attacking You
Attack, PA 2(1d20+41)[53]
Damage (2d6+39)[46]

BAB Attack 2, Attacking You
Attack, PA 2(1d20+41)[57]
Damage (2d6+39)[48]

BAB Attack 3, Attacking You
Attack, PA 2(1d20+41)[49]
Damage (2d6+39)[50]

[Talic]

You miscalculated the power point cost of your ability. It costs 8 power points to use your flat footed attack, 5 power points to use your ability damage.

Which means you only have 2 points to augment, meaning if it does hit, it does either 3 damage and 4 drain is not a flat footed attack, or does 13 damage and isn't a flat footed attack, and therefore doesn't hit because of wall of blades.



Immediate Action: Wall of Blades

[roll0]

AC Result is 56

Wrong. The Lurker may use up to his class level on the augment.
The individual augments cost 0 pp. It's only when fortifying it with PP that it costs extra. Relevant text: CompPsi p.14. Unless an augment has a specific increase in effectiveness ability, it costs 0 pp. The level indicators are merely the level they are attained at. The flat footed augment costs 0pp.

The ability damage one, therefore, is fine with 14.

[Incendius]

Right.


Whatever then, I guess I will have to take up my arguments with why Ghosts should be banned from an arena like this.

Because seriously, Ghosts are Invincible Creatures with Spell Like Abilities that are supernatural, and that also do ability damage, which can't be prevented or cured unless your undead or a spellcaster. You can't beat one unless you are a volley archer with force arrows, or if you are another Ghost. Literally, period, you cannot, because Ghosts can even laugh off etherealness armor, which is the only way to hurt them while they are ethereal and then use spring attack along with free action manifestion to jump out of the ground, into the ground, and remain invulnerable.

And this is really supposed to be a fighter arena, not a "I try to be a spellcaster" arena.


No offense to you intended, but really, Ghosts are not fighters. They are by definition almost completely magical creatures that fight with magical abilities designed to specifically beat fighters and only really be beatable by arcanists.

[Talic]

Firstly, Ethereal armor is one thing they do not laugh off. Any buff they get is gone when you go ethereal.

Second, a variety of items provide resistances to ability damage and drain. Heck, there's an armor that provides immunity to drain. And the damage? That came from Lurk.

Your character's fort save is atrocious, for a big beefy. Absolutely atrocious. Same with Will. I could have done the exact same thing with the Ghost Faced Killer PrC to you, and given you a Will DC 30+.

You built a one trick pony, and you're surprised when the glaring weaknesses in the build are exploited?

Heck, I could have eaten that guy with a halfling rogue, or with my lycanthrope ogre (over 2x your current character's HP, and much better saves, greater reach, and still a melee focused build).

I'm not saying you're a bad player. But what you're doing here is making an excuse for the loss. That's not a very sporting way to handle it. Your character lost because it was inferior. It's a glass cannon that focuses almost entirely on that attack bonus. Strength boost, strength boost, feat feat... and you don't realize that with competent playing, both ranged attacks and charge attacks are very hard to get off.

EDIT: Ghosts have glaring weaknesses too. 103 HP? That's a 1 hit KO if there's a single mistake. The fact that force effects go 1 way only with ethereal creatures (look up MiC, Force enhancement, for bows). The fact that everything in this arena has ghost touch, and the ghost needs to render itself vulnerable to make a single offensive move.

If your ready action had been to sunder my sword when I manifested, you'd have likely won. Sundering cleave, bam.

[Incendius]

No.

Ethereal armor is laughable. Want to know why? You can manifest. An ethereal person cannot attack anyone who is manifested. Therefore, you manifest as a free action, after the fighter takes a standard action and can't make an attack that round. You run around, maybe even go underground while ethereal for more fun, and you can't be hit.

So its laughable.

And no I'm not mad my "One Trick Pony" got killed.

I'm mad that your turn attempt using, psionic power point using, supernatural ability using, ghost, is attacking ability damage and generally going as close to violating the spirit of the rules as you possibly can without actually violating the rules.

This is supposed to be a fighter arena. If you had actually, you know attacked me and won? I wouldn't have cared. But you didn't. If you had beaten me with an actual fighter, I wouldn't have cared. But you didn't. You beat me with your own one trick pony, except it isn't a one trick pony, its a cheese grater that uses supernatural abilities to emulate tons of spells and make it impossible for anyone other than a ghost to even touch you.

I know there are problems with my character, I can deal with that. But what I am saying is, that this isn't me fighting a fighter as the arena intended, this is me fighting someone who is as close to being a spellcaster as possible while still not technically being a spellcaster.

Your own opinion may differ, but thats how I see it, and not because my character got killed. I personally think its exceedingly possible for my character to get killed by a reasonable other fighter, and I wouldn't care if it did so. I just really didn't realize, how completely ridiculous a Ghost is to beat unless the Ghost is played stupidly.


Edit: Oh yep, I totally would have won against your 70+ AC. See, you can say things like "One Hit Kill" but its really not a one hit kill when the only way you can even TOUCH the individual in question is if you run through hoops, get feats specifically focused on attacking that individual in question, and then STILL have trouble even LANDING a hit.

Let alone that no, it isn't a one hit kill, its not even close, its a full round action kill given your STILL formidable defenses after everything involved, for a character specifically focused on gaining huge amount of attack bonuses AFTER sundering your main sources of AC.

Edit2: Could you also point me to any armor that grants immunity to ability damage? Not drain, as thats easy to find, but ability damage, which is the key thing here, as Ghosts also have ways to do ability damage that completely screw up one's abilities anyway.

Edit3: I admit, maybe my point isn't even the whole Ghost thing, but rather the Ghost thing, combined with the Lurk, combined with the Paladin, that seems so out of line. All three use intensely magical abilities, that only get by because they just possibly aren't actually magical. Hell, the entire point of power points is that they are spell equivalents, there's a reason that the level 10 ability of the rogue only gives 2 strength damage on a sneak attack, because anything else gets into the spell range. Like a Lurk.

Edit5: Because in retrospect... Lurk's can even kill other ghosts without even trying. As the ghost's won't be able to touch you, and you can generally use Flat Footed Touch attacks to take away their ability scores till kingdom come, and go laughing about your victory later. The Lurk is definitively the deal clincher here, because without it, or even with it and not using Power Points, you can basically take down any character you want to in a maximum of two rounds. Any character, anywhere, before they have a real chance at killing you. And you haven't even exploited this ability to your full potential yet.


Edit4: Which in final respect means that at most, what any character can do against a ghost that is not a ghost, or is a force volley archer (Like I specifically said), is one attack per round, for 1/2 rounds, while they are getting chipped away at in other regards, before they can even attempt to attack. After that, they STILL have to contend with phenomenal AC, let alone still being able to hit at all when the Ghost is ability damaging them to kingdom come.

[Talic]

First. A manifested ghost is still attackable from the ethereal plane. Moreover, it does not even benefit from incorporeal. True story.

A manifested ghost remains partially on the Ethereal Plane, where is it not incorporeal. A manifested ghost can be attacked by opponents on either the Material Plane or the Ethereal Plane. The ghost’s incorporeality helps protect it from foes on the Material Plane, but not from foes on the Ethereal Plane.

See?

Second, what spells did I emulate? From the ghost race, I...

did 1d4 ability drain.
went ethereal a couple times.

From the pixie, I....

was invisible.

From the Lurk, I...

Performed attacks and augments more akin to Martial maneuvers than anything else.

This seems not like "tons and tons of abilities".

It seems more like:

Divine and turning abilities to boost armor class and melee damage... that seems warrior like.

Smite ability to boost hit chance of melee attacks... That seems warrior like.

Invisibility to enhance stealth and approach... That seems warrior like.

You know, in all actuality, the only thing that really had no warrior feel to it was the etherealness.

As for the others? Martial maneuvers deal ability damage. A vampire's slam attack deals negative levels.

Are they not "warrior-like"? Or is anything that you personally don't have a method to beat not warrior like?

Would a halfling with a +50 hide mod and sniping attacks be "non-warrior like"? I could have one that could stand in the middle of an open prairie and snipe all day long, and never be seen.

No, the only thing here that's not in the spirit of friendly competition is your attitude.

EDIT: Oh, and the ability damage? From Ghost? That would have taken a LONG time to do anything... and the only ability damage attack that Ghost has ALLOWS a save. So how about the Diamond mind maneuver that substitutes a Con check for a fort save, and pull 18 ranks + 4 con mod, and have a 60% pass chance. Swift action regain it next round, and do it again if you fail, and that's about a 90% shot at being immune to every ability damage attack a ghost has. Cause 1 save = 24 hour protection.

But you don't have any warblade levels... oh wait. Yeah, ya do.

There are other ways, including Cloak of Resistance, etc. Bottom line, you put EVERY RESOURCE YOU HAD into offense. The resulting character would have lost to an assassin's death attack... a Ghost face killer's death attack... a ghoul's paralyzation attack... etc etc etc. Basically, if a saving throw was required, you were hosed.

[Incendius]

Thank you for that very personal attack. I was not trying to insult you, like I said before. I said that I felt that a Ghost combined with a Lurk combined with a Paladin felt like it was violating the spirit of the rules, not that YOU PERSONALLY were maliciously violating the rules, but that it doesn't feel like a fighter at all and doesn't feel like it fits in the arena. There is a large difference, especially in that you didn't even start the ghost thing, you built upon it to its logical conclusion.

I said I wanted to bring this up with other people and see what they thought, because it didn't seem like it fit in the arena. You are the one that took that as a personal attack and as a hissy fit that I lost; thus you are the accuser, so please keep bringing in personal attacks here.

First. A manifested ghost is still attackable from the ethereal plane. Moreover, it does not even benefit from incorporeal. True story.

I admit I'm wrong here, sorry about that. Still, 1/4 of a character's wealth to engage another character on equal footing, a large trade off but not impossible I admit.

did 1d4 ability drain.
went ethereal a couple times.

From the pixie, I....

was invisible.

From the Lurk, I...

Performed attacks and augments more akin to Martial maneuvers than anything else.

Name me any martial maneuver that simultaneously renders the opponent flat footed while performing a touch attack while doing unavoidable ability damage.

Hint: Thats a combination of 3 Martial Maneuvers, or more as the only one that comes close to the ability damage is a 9th level manuever that attacks con. In one attack, and you could still take other attacks that round if you wanted. Can you please show anything that comes close to this that is NOT a spell?

Lets look at it in another manor also okay?

Incorporeality: Can obtain a close, not perfect, but close matches that all require around 1/4 of wealth.

Cha Deflection: Unnatainable, anywhere, one of the most powerful abilities in the game.

Horrid Visage (Or W/e): Unnatainable, a repeating Gaze attack that does ability damage... and while yes my fortitude save is low, its not stupendously low like you claim.



Onto the other things, yes I would be fine with a halfling with 50 hide. Because the halfling could still be located down to square, still has to contend with AC, and besides there is a debate going on about it elsewhere anyway if it should be allowed.

I barely mentioned Paladin, moreso in conjunction with Ghost, and I really retract my statement as I don't care about it.


A Ghoul dealing negative levels would still have to contend with AC, and has inherent limitations that are much worse than a Ghost's near untouchability. The Ghoul has a limit that is reasonable on its negative levels in addition, if it even hits, compared to your Ghost's "I can hit anything at all except on a 1 and knock it out in at most two rounds." attack.


And again, ability damage that all allow saves, are not touch attacks, and deal far FAR lower amounts of ability damage in the first place do not compare to your super attack.

[Talic]

Thank you for that very personal attack. I was not trying to insult you, like I said before. I said that I felt that a Ghost combined with a Lurk combined with a Paladin felt like it was violating the spirit of the rules, not that YOU PERSONALLY were maliciously violating the rules, but that it doesn't feel like a fighter at all and doesn't feel like it fits in the arena. There is a large difference, especially in that you didn't even start the ghost thing, you built upon it to its logical conclusion.

What did you call my character? A cheesegrinder? No attacks there. You're accusing me of munchkinry, very thinly veiling it, and trying to take the moral high ground... And you're using incorrect information to do it!

I said I wanted to bring this up with other people and see what they thought, because it didn't seem like it fit in the arena. You are the one that took that as a personal attack and as a hissy fit that I lost; thus you are the accuser, so please keep bringing in personal attacks here.

Nothing worth rebutting here. Moving on.

I admit I'm wrong here, sorry about that. Still, 1/4 of a character's wealth to engage another character on equal footing, a large trade off but not impossible I admit.

Martial maneuvers can make you incorporeal, which is the same effect.

Name me any martial maneuver that simultaneously renders the opponent flat footed while performing a touch attack while doing unavoidable ability damage.

Name 1 thing I did that did all three. There isn't. Lurk simultaneously rendered you flat-footed and did ability damage. The ghost had an attack method that was a touch attack. But the lurk's augment style of swift action boost, lasts for 1 round or until a melee attack is made? A limited number of times per day? That's more like a martial maneuver than a spell. Heck, name me a spell that does everything you said above. It doesn't exist. It's called synergy. Name me one martial maneuver that increases power attack damage by 100%. Name me one martial maneuver that allows you to siphon attack penalties to AC instead? Does this mean that Leap attack and Shock Trooper are not with the "martial spirit"?

Hint: Thats a combination of 3 Martial Maneuvers, or more as the only one that comes close to the ability damage is a 9th level manuever that attacks con. In one attack, and you could still take other attacks that round if you wanted. Can you please show anything that comes close to this that is NOT a spell?

Show me a spell that does that? I used several different abilities to do that. Much like you managed ranged attack cleaves and sunders. Not because of one ability... but a combination of multiple abilities that synergize.

Lets look at it in another manor also okay?

Incorporeality: Can obtain a close, not perfect, but close matches that all require around 1/4 of wealth.

Or a martial counter that makes you incorporeal. Or positive/negative energy. Or force damage. Or ghost touch weapons. Or weapon augment crystals. Need I go on?

Cha Deflection: Unnatainable, anywhere, one of the most powerful abilities in the game.

Nymph. Ghost. Several outsiders. Deflection to AC isn't really that big a thing. Heck, Shield Ward allows your shield bonus to apply to touch attacks. That's almost the same thing.

Horrid Visage (Or W/e): Unnatainable, a repeating Gaze attack that does ability damage... and while yes my fortitude save is low, its not stupendously low like you claim.

Your save is under your level. That's bad, in a PvP arena. And it only repeats until you defend it once. Or shut your eyes. Heck, blindsight, blindsense, and several other abilities bypass it.

Onto the other things, yes I would be fine with a halfling with 50 hide. Because the halfling could still be located down to square, still has to contend with AC, and besides there is a debate going on about it elsewhere anyway if it should be allowed.

No it can't. Darkstalker prevents senses, Hide in Plain sight prevents the need for cover, Sniping mastery, Woodland archer, etc. It's not debated because it's not "warrior". It's denied because it's a slow kill method that's all or nothing. Either you will slowly die for 30 rounds, helpless, or I do quickly. There's no middle ground.

I barely mentioned Paladin, moreso in conjunction with Ghost, and I really retract my statement as I don't care about it.

Paladin gets Cha to saves, is that OP? Monk can get wisdom or int to AC. Characters can get Con to AC. In fact, Strength is the only thing I've not seen able to apply to AC.

A Ghoul dealing negative levels would still have to contend with AC, and has inherent limitations that are much worse than a Ghost's near untouchability. The Ghoul has a limit that is reasonable on its negative levels in addition, if it even hits, compared to your Ghost's "I can hit anything at all except on a 1 and knock it out in at most two rounds." attack.

Ghouls deal paralyzation. And if I used a ghoul, it'd be combined with Emerald Razor to be going against touch AC. It's called optimization. You feel it fine to have a +28 Str mod, and the ability to easily hit a 60 AC, but anything that gets AC past that is cheese? Anything that uses tactics to avoid you is cheese? Anything that mitigates your AC is cheese?

Sounds like the only thing that's warrior spirit is a flat open arena, no terrain. Two big beefys pounding on each other until one goes down. You're complaining about cheese, when War Hulk is widely considered to be one to the top 5 physical combat cheese classes out there. (Hulking hurler, Frenzied Berzerker and Bloodstorm Blade are also on that list)

And again, ability damage that all allow saves, are not touch attacks, and deal far FAR lower amounts of ability damage in the first place do not compare to your super attack.

My super attack was almost entirely from Lurk. Not ghost. And yet the bulk of your thrust is basically, "OMGZORZ GHOST IS TEH BROKENZ". My offense had very little to do with ghost. I could have just as easily used Emerald Razor with Lurk to get the flat footed touch attack. In fact, that's an option on my character. I can go after HP. I can go after Int or Wis. I can remove armor from the equation. I can remove dex from the equation. In other words, I focused on having a versatile character that can handle a variety of character types.

I designed it to be first strike against corporeal targets (since most corporeal builds can kill it in 1 round). I designed it to be very hard to hit against incorporeal targets (since they typically have lower attack bonuses).

But the limitations:
If I use Lurk Augment, I cannot demanifest in the same round.
If I use Lurk augment, I cannot use belt of battle.
If I use Lurk augment, I cannot use any Martial Boost Maneuver.

And the entire build is based on that lurk augment. Your chief play error was when you moved and readied. If you hadn't moved, you'd have been 100% fine, would have nullified my attack, and neutered me.

You didn't lose because my character is a block of gouda.

You lost because you misplayed. Pure. And. Simple. Had you not done that, you'd have caught me with my pants down, and decimated me. Your readied action had my number cold. You just made it in an illegal fashion, and so provoked.

[Incendius]

What did you call my character? A cheesegrinder? No attacks there. You're accusing me of munchkinry, very thinly veiling it, and trying to take the moral high ground... And you're using incorrect information to do it!

Well after you started insulting me in your other post, so please, lets just both stop the personal attacks alright? My original post did not contain anything but that it said I did not feel Ghosts were in the spirit of the arena, which is an opinion, you jumped in and started calling me one trick pony and other effects. Lets both stop the personal attacks, I admit that I was wrong.


Do you at least see my position though and why I might think it? The real core of the issue is, that the character works by attacking a person's mind, in a place built around the idea of the best fighter.



Nevermind though, I really don't feel like arguing. I am very sorry I got you annoyed, I admit that I lost and misplayed, but like I said I don't feel that Lurk or Ghost fits in with the idea of the arena to play a contest to see who can make a better warrior. I never intended to say that you were personally attempting to try to violate the arena, but that I felt that such a thing was out of line with what the arena was trying to do with its mission statement.

So please, can we drop this? And no, its not because I don't have arguments, rather that I can see that we disagree on a couple fundamental points, and no matter how long we argue its not going to be resolved, at all.



In retrospect, more of it was because I was very annoyed yesterday at something else that at this. I am sorry I let my personal life leak into the game. Can you please forgive me and lets drop this? I admit in many respects I was hasty and wrong.

[Talic]

That's no big deal.

IMO, the warrior spirit involves melee, ranged, and alternate attacks. That's why I built my character the way I did. A character with 12 or more int as Wis is hard to 1 shot. A Character with 14 is practically impossible. A character with 18 is impossible even on a crit, rolling max damage on everything.

Yes, it has the option to attack a mental stat. Would it have been worse if I had been able to knock 16 off your strength or con? Note, decent poisons can do all that, and, while they are generally considered disreputable, the idea of poisoned daggers is certainly warrior-esque.

Look at the base rules for the warrior arena. No casters. No manifesters. No caster abilities. You can take levels in a class that grants either, but you must give up any spells and powers.

Why? Because they realized that level 15 with casters is too broken. There would be flat footed ranged touch attacks from superior invisibility that dealt 22 negative levels. So, the "warrior spirit" was to emphasize no spells or powers.

Not to show the arena was everything exemplifying Conan, Rambo, John Wayne, or Dirty Harry. This is a major point of view thing. I mean, from the position of the battlerager ethos, even ranged attacks are cowardly and not warrior-like. Where do you draw that line, once you start drawing it?

[Adumbration]

Look at the base rules for the warrior arena. No casters. No manifesters. No caster abilities. You can take levels in a class that grants either, but you must give up any spells and powers.

You know, strictly speaking, that forbids ghosts. *drumroll*

Seriously speaking, would you say that taking five levels in Master of Radiance for Sunbeam as a spell-like ability would be taking it too far?

[Talic]

I believe the current "commonly agreed upon" grounds are that SLA's aren't kosher. Supernatural are fine, but not SLA's. Hence, I don't get any of the pixie SLA's.

[Adumbration]

I believe the current "commonly agreed upon" grounds are that SLA's aren't kosher. Supernatural are fine, but not SLA's. Hence, I don't get any of the pixie SLA's.

In this context it seems very strange that Binders (and Incarnum) are both forbidden.

[Talic]

I agree. That was Lyndworm's call... Personally, I see both as more akin a martial adept than a caster.

[Incendius]

Binders not so much, aren't there binds that give summon monster and other such abilities?

Incarnum is strange though, as pretty most the most spell like things there are ranged touch attacks... that do 5d6 damage or something at this level, when they aren't combat boosters.

[Talic]

Incarnum is actually pretty underpowered at higher levels.

As for summoning? One lets you summon a Large elemental.

Other things that would allow this:

Water Devotion (Feat from Complete Champion)
Elemental Companion Druidic Variant (if you choose to forego druidic spells and just go with wild shape + companion)

The fact that the elemental remains indefinately, must stay near you at all times, and has a low movement speed is more of a ball and chain than anything.

It's a CR 5 creature at level 15, and you can only have 1. It's, at best, about on par as a fleshraker dinosaur companion of a level 5 druid.

And the text that spell like abilities cannot be used? Weakens binder incredibly. There are a few vestiges that are still worth taking... but not many.