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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: The Introduction of magic into a D&D Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
    This with one caveat:

    Entire cities are forbiddanced, except for one vaulted room guarded by AMFs and the top tier fighters and beasts of the kingdom. This lets the city focus troops onto the walls.
    That depends. It's certainly reasonable but it doesn't provide more than the illusion of security. Just rent a room or building in the city and start digging down until you have gone down 65 feet. Now you can teleport to that location. You are better off just making use of Contact Other Planes, your populations permanent telepathic bonds, and your fast response force (mages with readied actions to teleport golem forces to the location of any breach) on standby.

    Another aspect I ran into when I turned the world into in game, was that it was best to connect all cities via a hub created from a genesis. This way, an army could be ready without disrupting the cities, or taking up room in the cities.
    In play I use a slightly altered setting that has them working through a hub. Originally run and controlled by a cabal of wizards who first created it and ruled the world until they warred amongst themselves. Now the fully automated hub continues to function but all attempts to take it over by force have failed miserably (in fact all attempts to move large concentrations of troops through it have failed miserably). But how you handle that depends a lot more on the specific setting.

    The problem with genesis though is that you can't use teleportation circles to link them, although you could just open portals from it too all the cities when you build it (which makes it significantly more difficult too add or remove cities).
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    Clearly, this is because Tippy equals Win.
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    Tippy, I knew, in the back of my mind, that you would have the answer. Why? Cause you win. That's why.
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    Default Re: The Introduction of magic into a D&D Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    It expects war's against monsters and defending villages against monsters, which the wilds provide.

    ... high level mages, legions of golems, and other defenses...
    In a distopian take on Tippyverse, where the Wizard Emperor does not care what happens to the proles, then yes, there is space to play a prole with a stick fighting of gnolls. But I did say that a utopia left no room for adventure and if, when gnolls attack, one of the Wizard Emperor's apprentices teleports in, invisible, with a squad of Shadesteel Golems with shadow evocation continual flames... well... what's left for a normal adventurer to do?
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    Default Re: The Introduction of magic into a D&D Economy

    Yeah, the problem with the "Huge Magical Citadel" idea is that everyone who's not either a mage, in the army or is a useful crafter is worthless to the society. Unless the rulers (who will almost certainly be the strongest casters) are particarly benevolant, I can see the majority of the population (basically everyone with a Commoner class and probably many others) being cast out to defend for themselves. Even if the wizards are kindhearted, this can change with time. All it takes is a group of extremists or radicals for the whole magical society to turn on the non spellcasters. Either it will result in a form of ethnic clensing where everyone who can't cast magic is brutally purged, or they will simply be forced to leave the magic cities.
    Thus, I can see a form of "Mad Max" style dystopian society, where everyone who is not a mage or otherwise useful to the wizards have no choice but to scratch out a living outside the walls of the great cities, resulting in probably a nomadic society if monsters are really common and the wizards are cruel enough not to allow new kingdoms etc to form out of paranoia. It'd be nice for a campaign set after a devastating magical war or something, with many of the world's food stocks wiped out, other than that which is made by Create Food spells. Adventurers could be exceptional people born outside the walls of the cities, or even spellcasters that have been outcast for some reason. Either way, I picture a lot of tension between spellcasters and non-spellcasters (with the latter living in fear, not only from the wild, roaming monsters, but also from the high level wizards with the power to Mindrape them from miles away)

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    Default Re: The Introduction of magic into a D&D Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by hewhosaysfish View Post
    In a distopian take on Tippyverse, where the Wizard Emperor does not care what happens to the proles, then yes, there is space to play a prole with a stick fighting of gnolls. But I did say that a utopia left no room for adventure and if, when gnolls attack, one of the Wizard Emperor's apprentices teleports in, invisible, with a squad of Shadesteel Golems with shadow evocation continual flames... well... what's left for a normal adventurer to do?
    The "tippyverse" is never a utopia. It always has the wilderness. And you assume that the "wizard emperor" (which doesn't exist) has the ability or desire to take care of the people living in the wilderness. A gnoll attack on the city is one thing, a gnoll attack on some village a thousand miles away won't even show up in his divinations. Sure, you can make a setting where adventuring never happens but it isn't likely or even particuarly possible.

    The wilds are a vital safety valve for the cities. Those who have too much energy, who want adventure, who want to fight wars, who would cause trouble when bored have the wilds to go adventure in. They are also a key way to keep the population under control, it's an ever present threat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Clearly, this is because Tippy equals Win.
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    Tippy=Win
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    Wow... Tippy, you equal win.
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    Tippy, I knew, in the back of my mind, that you would have the answer. Why? Cause you win. That's why.
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    Alright. I finally surrender. Tippy, you do in fact equal win. You have claimed the position of being my idol.

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    Default Re: The Introduction of magic into a D&D Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    The "tippyverse" is never a utopia.
    In that case my statement "the Tippyverse could lead to a utopia, assuming a benevolent dictator, but leaves little room to adventure" was wrong from the outset.

    It always has the wilderness. And you assume that the "wizard emperor" (which doesn't exist) has the ability or desire to take care of the people living in the wilderness.
    Since you were responding to my comment on a specifically utopian tippyverse, that seemed like a fairly safe assumption to me.


    In any case, my main point still stands: changing the setting to match the rules is ass-backwards. If someone looks to DnD for a fantasy adventure with a medieval-knights-and-dragons theme then you can't just give them industrialised city-states with a teleportation network and robot armies.
    If a tree falls in the forest and the PCs aren't around to hear it... what do I roll to see how loud it is?

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    Default Re: The Introduction of magic into a D&D Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by hewhosaysfish View Post
    In any case, my main point still stands: changing the setting to match the rules is ass-backwards. If someone looks to DnD for a fantasy adventure with a medieval-knights-and-dragons theme then you can't just give them industrialised city-states with a teleportation network and robot armies.
    Why? I did it twice as a player character.
    Me: I'd get the paladin to help, but we might end up with a kid that believes in fairy tales.
    DM: aye, and it's not like she's been saved by a mysterious little girl and a band of real live puppets from a bad man and worse step-sister to go live with the faries in the happy land.
    Me: Yeah, a knight in shining armour might just bring her over the edge.

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    Default Re: The Introduction of magic into a D&D Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Yahzi View Post
    Except that the governments of those towns almost certainly are wielders of that kind of power themselves. That's why they're the government.

    The point was that we had the D&D RAW economy, and then added magic, starting with 1st level casters spontaneously appearing at some rate. The government, as exists, is non-magical because there was no magic. If anyone in the government turns out to be a spellcaster, they'll probably be ruling the local order in a few levels, but any non-magical government is going to view the spellcasters as a terrible threat to their established order. And if they don't, then those power structures will be overthrown by the first army that has a LV 5 Wizard and Fireball.

    This is not a bad hook for a campaign, but I feel like it must be a fairly obvious one.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: The Introduction of magic into a D&D Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter View Post

    The point was that we had the D&D RAW economy, and then added magic, starting with 1st level casters spontaneously appearing at some rate. The government, as exists, is non-magical because there was no magic. If anyone in the government turns out to be a spellcaster, they'll probably be ruling the local order in a few levels, but any non-magical government is going to view the spellcasters as a terrible threat to their established order. And if they don't, then those power structures will be overthrown by the first army that has a LV 5 Wizard and Fireball.

    This is not a bad hook for a campaign, but I feel like it must be a fairly obvious one.
    Sure, making magic a spontaneous and new emergence would be an interesting campaign. But it's even less standard than the "tippyverse". Something like Shadowrun's emergence of magic in 2011 could work and would have massive effects.
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    Clearly, this is because Tippy equals Win.
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    Tippy, I knew, in the back of my mind, that you would have the answer. Why? Cause you win. That's why.
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    Default Re: The Introduction of magic into a D&D Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    Sure, making magic a spontaneous and new emergence would be an interesting campaign. But it's even less standard than the "tippyverse". Something like Shadowrun's emergence of magic in 2011 could work and would have massive effects.
    What you've got to take in acount is that even if magic is old, stuff such as agriculture, literature and nonmagic stuff is even older.

    High-middle level casters don't pop out of nowhere. They were low level casters at some point. And low level casters can't go around making traps of endless food and other stuff like that. Before the first 5th cleric came to be, thousands of people had to farm and craft by hand day and night to feed the lower level clerics.

    High level casters(17th and above, enough to cast 9th level spells) are stupidly rare, close to becoming gods themselves.

    Thus, high level magic is also extremely rare, because only a few people ever get high level enough to be able to use it.

    This is due to how exp is earned. A low level character gets exp for killing almost anything. A high level character only gets exp for killing very strong things.

    So for someone to be able to cast a teleportation circle, they must have ventured far and wide, fighting all kind of nasty monsters.

    Only a few survive to tell the tale.

    And of those few, they've probably have to spend their lifes fighting high level threats such as Balors and elder brains, instead of going around spaming teleportation circles they don't need anyway.

    Just look at Eberron. The highest rulers are only 12-15th level, still not enough to cast 9th level spells. There's no one to make teleportation circles!

    Thus, since only a very few people in history ever become able to cast 9th level spells, most people indeed have never seen it, and it's as good as it was new.

    And thus Joe Farmer still has to farmy by hand, since his little village was never deemed important enough to get a trap of create food by the few clerics who could afford the exp to build it, let alone a teleportation circle who will have to wait untill some really high level monster appears so Gandalf the grey can kill it and earn new enough exp to build a new one, since you can't pay so much exp you would lose a level.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2008-12-01 at 02:22 PM.

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    Default Re: The Introduction of magic into a D&D Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by hewhosaysfish View Post
    In any case, my main point still stands: changing the setting to match the rules is ass-backwards. If someone looks to DnD for a fantasy adventure with a medieval-knights-and-dragons theme then you can't just give them industrialised city-states with a teleportation network and robot armies.
    Maybe, and this is particularly likely with Tippy, maybe people got into D&D not because they wanted to play a fantasy adventure with medieval knights and dragons, but because they read the rules, and so all these cool things that characters can do that are inherently better then anything portrayed in legend, and they wanted to do that.

    I mean, my first contact with D&D was Baldur's Gate II, so I very quickly got used to the idea that Gateing in Demons that could devour you, and cloning yourself, and just generally having a single guy take on armies is what D&D is about.

    So when I actually started playing real D&D, well, I really didn't want to be Joe McKnight, the guy who challenges a Dragon to single Combat, and charges at the flying Dragon on his horse and the Dragon is nice enough to stay on the ground. I wanted to be Joe McCrazyWizard, the guy who's response to a Dragon is to cast Protection from Evil, Summon a Demon to distract it, then spam spells that lower resistance/saves until I can successfully turn the Dragon into a squirrel.

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    Default Re: The Introduction of magic into a D&D Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    What you've got to take in acount is that even if magic is old, stuff such as agriculture, literature and nonmagic stuff is even older.
    I mean, true, but what about the elves? They live for hundreds of years at a time and, in many fluff pieces, they were the first race to exist. Why don't they have Tippy Societies? Or even just one Tippy Society? At some point the "elves are lazy" excuse just doesn't cut it.

    @Tippy
    I don't know if my setting is quite so radical. The way I see it, the Economics of D&D and the Adventures of D&D were thought in isolation. Adventurers routinely walk around with enough gold to found their own kingdoms long before they reach Epic - what kind of Economy based on gold could exist with these kind of people walking around?

    All I'm proposing is introducing D&D Adventurers into a D&D Economy world.
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    Default Re: The Introduction of magic into a D&D Economy

    In Faerun, they had a near-Tippy Society- Aryvandaar. it became incredibly evil- worse than the drow, and the other elves needed the Gods themselves to step in.

    an Ancient Empires version of "Rocks Fall. Your Tippypire dies!"

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    Default Re: The Introduction of magic into a D&D Economy

    The problem with the standard "PCs raid ancient ruins and caves for treasure" idea is if the world has people of higher level than the PCs. If there's so many dungeons around, each packed with gold and magical items, surely some high level NPCs would try and devise ways to clear them all out for relatively easy profit? Even if people die on the way, the EXP gained and wealth accumulated will probably make Raising the dead easy. If all these sources of wealth are such common knowledge, even if they're guarded by tough creatures it seems illogical they are ignored by almost everyone but adventurers.

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    Default Re: The Introduction of magic into a D&D Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter View Post
    I mean, true, but what about the elves? They live for hundreds of years at a time and, in many fluff pieces, they were the first race to exist. Why don't they have Tippy Societies? Or even just one Tippy Society? At some point the "elves are lazy" excuse just doesn't cut it.
    They probably have. And then they atracted the atention of a lot of very powerfull enemies, or perhaps an inner struggle for power broke out. And now their tippy society is a bunch of powerfull ruins where the party is gonna adventure.

    Remember minor artifacts? Magic stuff that can be built by mortals but no one knows how to anymore? Guess from where they came from.

    And then there's the gods themselves. They really don't like direct rivals, so they probably rain rocks in any emerging tippy society, making it really hard for one to last for long.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2008-12-01 at 03:33 PM.

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    Default Re: The Introduction of magic into a D&D Economy

    faerun has a long, long history of Powerful Wizard empires collapsing- demonic outbreak, very angry deities, killing the deity of magic and bringing whole society down, wars with aberrations, etc.

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    Default Re: The Introduction of magic into a D&D Economy

    Yeah, if you get a society of spellcasters powerful enough, they're more likely to suffer the wrath of a god, a demon lord, or something else. There's always bigger fishes, and they typically don't like outsiders moving into their pond.

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    Default Re: The Introduction of magic into a D&D Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by TengYt View Post
    The problem with the standard "PCs raid ancient ruins and caves for treasure" idea is if the world has people of higher level than the PCs. If there's so many dungeons around, each packed with gold and magical items, surely some high level NPCs would try and devise ways to clear them all out for relatively easy profit? Even if people die on the way, the EXP gained and wealth accumulated will probably make Raising the dead easy. If all these sources of wealth are such common knowledge, even if they're guarded by tough creatures it seems illogical they are ignored by almost everyone but adventurers.
    Well sure, but the high level NPCs don't really care about the low level junk that is in most of these places. They may care about some single unique thing known to be in a place. That's why the Duke/Wizard hires a bunch of adventurers to go a loot the place, keeping what they like, so long as they bring them back that single unique thing. Sound like a familiar plot to anyone?
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    Default Re: The Introduction of magic into a D&D Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    The "tippyverse" is never a utopia. It always has the wilderness. And you assume that the "wizard emperor" (which doesn't exist) has the ability or desire to take care of the people living in the wilderness. A gnoll attack on the city is one thing, a gnoll attack on some village a thousand miles away won't even show up in his divinations. Sure, you can make a setting where adventuring never happens but it isn't likely or even particuarly possible.

    The wilds are a vital safety valve for the cities. Those who have too much energy, who want adventure, who want to fight wars, who would cause trouble when bored have the wilds to go adventure in. They are also a key way to keep the population under control, it's an ever present threat.
    My theory is the one I outlined at the bottom of the last page- the magic cities dominated by Tippian god-wizards aren't the only centers of civilization out there. There are other lesser centers constructed by less powerful leveled characters that look more like 'normal' castles, where people still have to perform quaint activities like growing food and walking from place to place rather than teleporting.

    Obviously, if the people in one of these lesser centers cross swords with one of the magic cities, they die messily. A bunch of shadesteel golems come in and kick their caste to rubble while singing cheerful songs. Or the god-wizard opens a gate to the Elemental Plane of Way Too Much Lava in the central courtyard. Or something like that.

    But unless something like that happens, most of the actual population of the world lives in places like this. The magic cities have no desire or use for the average human being, and the average human being is understandably averse to living in a hut and getting burned out by rampaging ogres every other week.
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    Default Re: The Introduction of magic into a D&D Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by TengYt View Post
    Yeah, if you get a society of spellcasters powerful enough, they're more likely to suffer the wrath of a god, a demon lord, or something else. There's always bigger fishes, and they typically don't like outsiders moving into their pond.
    Not really. Epic Magic is the biggest fish (barring, maybe, greater deities).
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    Default Re: The Introduction of magic into a D&D Economy

    mysterious lurking creatures from the Far Realm the size of continents?

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    Default Re: The Introduction of magic into a D&D Economy

    The problem that I foresee with the "magical citadel" universe is in the way advancement occurs under the rules. You get XP by killing things. In fact, without DM arbitration, that is the only way you get experience - going out and killing something that's as powerful as you are. This has been alluded to, but I think the consequences are so far reaching as to throw the citadel society into chaos every generation.

    First of all, magical items cost XP. The wizard lords making magical traps will have to pay 40 x caster level x spell level in XP per trap. Each permanent teleportation circle costs 4500 XP. Eventually, however, due to the magical arms race described in the formation of the cities, the wizards will have to hole themselves up in their castles, because the permanent defenses of anywhere they would go to get experience would kill them very quickly (all the other wizards are just waiting for one of them to head out - after all, they need that precious XP too.) If the wizard tries to fight things where he lives, the permanent defenses are so great that nothing he is capable of summoning will constitute a threat, and so no XP is earned.

    There is no XP to be had in the cities. But the wilds, now; that's a rich source. The wizards in their towers can't have constant scrying effects on every one of the dirt farmers out there to see which ones become powerful enough to warrant their attention, and even if they found a nice chunk of XP, the fact that they would be killed by the other wizards just waiting for them to step outside will deter them from teleporting out there to kill. So, people in the wilds advance. They have goblins, then gnolls, then owlbears, and so on until they're fighting each other. Only a few wilders per generation will get to 20th level, but they will do so. And they'll be able to craft as many items as they need, since they're constantly getting an influx of XP from their rivals. And finally, since we know that these marginalized people on the outskirts of society resent their wizard absentee overlords, they'll storm the keeps. Since they've got all the items they can craft (or even buy in the cities) and are as high a level as the wizard overlords, and typically have a party with diverse skills, they'll succeed in killing one of those wizards, almost certainly. And once they've taken his city as a base of operations, the others can fall quickly as well. Now these adventurers become the overlords, and the cycle begins again.

    All in all, it's a pretty nice campaign setting, because of the inherent instability.

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    Default Re: The Introduction of magic into a D&D Economy

    I gotta say Tippy, the Divine Wrath Conjecture is a powerful counter to your Tippy Society. The Gods, knowing that if anyone achieves Epic Magic they are screwed, always intervene on any society that seems to get too advanced in terms of magic. It's something they could do, and more importantly, something they would do, if for no other reason than self-preservation.

    This presumes, of course, that there are no Epic Casters in the world. It could be all potential Epic Casters are given a "Join or Die" ultimatum at some point - they can either serve a divinity as a proxy or be erased from existence. The binding that divine proxies are subject to should be sufficient to prevent any later Epic Casting from threatening the Gods.

    I like it. Thoughts?

    EDIT:
    @Darkmatter - a fine theory, but there is one problem of Wild Wizards; they are easily detectable via question-based divination. Tippy has the correct build (which I wish he'd re-post) for this sort of situation - all a Caster needs to do is ask "Who is the most powerful and least protected person in the world" to find these Wild Wizards, and then perform a quick Scry & Die for massive XP.
    Last edited by Oracle_Hunter; 2008-12-01 at 04:08 PM.
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    Default Re: The Introduction of magic into a D&D Economy

    Depends on setting and wizard.

    A wizard in Eberron can do essentially whatever the heck he wants. Not much the gods can do to stop him.

    Other setting, you have to be in allegiance as a significant member of some group of gods. Elminster is an epic wizard, for instance, associated with a god that is sufficiently powerful that the other gods can't really act. Usually, anyway. In campaign, I did it by aligning myself with the local gods, then by getting to the level that they couldn't kill me if they wanted. Didn't betray them, but I don't exactly rely on their protection.
    Me: I'd get the paladin to help, but we might end up with a kid that believes in fairy tales.
    DM: aye, and it's not like she's been saved by a mysterious little girl and a band of real live puppets from a bad man and worse step-sister to go live with the faries in the happy land.
    Me: Yeah, a knight in shining armour might just bring her over the edge.

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: The Introduction of magic into a D&D Economy

    *shrug*

    I don't like active deities so I mostly take an Eberron approach. They are generally accepted to exist but they don't interfere. Divine magic exists but whether it is actually granted by the gods or not isn't confirmed one way or the other.

    And in regards to someone previous comment about eberron not having reached tippyverse level or having high level NPC's. I refer you to Xen'Drix and the dragons. The gian't society certainly seems to qualify and it lasted until they did something stupid and an even more powerful force interceded (the dragons who as great wryms are some of the most powerful casters in the game). It's quite possible that the dragons saw the whole Xen'drix experiment as a failure and decided that letting any of the other nations reach a similar power level is a bad idea so they quietly remove those who become a potential threat.

    It fits and if you have an outside force with the desire and power to force society onto one path (or away from one path) then you get different results. A single epic mage can cast a spell that makes non epic casting not work for the entire world. If that happens then none of this ever occurs. Or what if he just negates teleportation circle's? Or create food and water? It's possible by the RAW.
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    Default Re: The Introduction of magic into a D&D Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    *shrug*

    I don't like active deities so I mostly take an Eberron approach. They are generally accepted to exist but they don't interfere. Divine magic exists but whether it is actually granted by the gods or not isn't confirmed one way or the other.
    They just seem do to don't interefere. You think it's a coincidence no NPC in Eberron has even reacehd 9th level spells yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    And in regards to someone previous comment about eberron not having reached tippyverse level or having high level NPC's. I refer you to Xen'Drix and the dragons. The gian't society certainly seems to qualify and it lasted until they did something stupid and an even more powerful force interceded (the dragons who as great wryms are some of the most powerful casters in the game). It's quite possible that the dragons saw the whole Xen'drix experiment as a failure and decided that letting any of the other nations reach a similar power level is a bad idea so they quietly remove those who become a potential threat.
    Precisely. There's always a bigger fish waiting to crush your emerging Tippypiverse. Aka every mage who reaches 17th level spellcasting gets a not so friendly visit from a bunch of wyrms/gods/abominations from other realms and is magically bound to never try to create tippy town or suffer a messy death.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2008-12-01 at 04:22 PM.

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: The Introduction of magic into a D&D Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    *shrug*

    I don't like active deities so I mostly take an Eberron approach. They are generally accepted to exist but they don't interfere. Divine magic exists but whether it is actually granted by the gods or not isn't confirmed one way or the other.
    I've never tried Eberron, but I, too, don't like interventionist deities. However, when you're talking about Epic Magic, I can't see any world in which the Divine Wrath Conjecture fails unless the deities are unable to directly act... or are unable to identify such threats in a reasonable time frame.
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    Default Re: The Introduction of magic into a D&D Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Precisely. There's always a bigger fish waiting to crush your emerging Tippypiverse. Aka every mage who reaches 17th level spellcasting gets a not so friendly visit from a bunch of wyrms/gods/abominations from other realms and is magically bound to never try to create tippy town or suffer a messy death.
    Actually, it already is the Tippyverse, the only difference being is that the baseline=dragons, not people. People=oppressed peasants.
    Me: I'd get the paladin to help, but we might end up with a kid that believes in fairy tales.
    DM: aye, and it's not like she's been saved by a mysterious little girl and a band of real live puppets from a bad man and worse step-sister to go live with the faries in the happy land.
    Me: Yeah, a knight in shining armour might just bring her over the edge.

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    Default Re: The Introduction of magic into a D&D Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
    Actually, it already is the Tippyverse, the only difference being is that the baseline=dragons, not people. People=oppressed peasants.
    Which begs the question: how does any elder dragon get offed? Shouldn't they just Shapechange into someone with the manual dexterity to build Magic Traps and keep a ton of self-buffs on all the time? Throw some super-defense on your hoard when you go out to cull the field of high-level casters, then come back and chill.
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    Default Re: The Introduction of magic into a D&D Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    They just seem do to don't interefere. You think it's a coincidence no NPC in Eberron has even reacehd 9th level spells yet?
    Seeing as a lich created the first Shadesteel Golems in Eberron it would seem that at least 1 has. And the giants most certainly did. And the dragons.

    Precisely. There's always a bigger fish waiting to crush your emerging Tippypiverse. Aka every mage who reaches 17th level spellcasting gets a not so friendly visit from a bunch of wyrms/gods/abominations from other realms and is magically bound to never try to create tippy town or suffer a messy death.
    Why would they care? The gods have no particular reason to give a **** about what mortals are doing until the mortals either challenge them or threaten to do great harm to one of their domains. And I don't know of any deity who has the "keep the world in the dark age's" domain or portfolio. In fact the tippyverse would prolly help them gain followers. Those in the cities now have lots of free time to devote to things like finding religion and those in the wilds now need the gods help more than ever because powerful temporal authority doesn't exist.

    Likewise dragons, why do they care? Unless the wizards are inclined to hunt them down (which they have no reason to do) then it's more trouble than it's worth (and draconomicon says that dragons are generally pretty lazy). Throw in the fact that they are sorcerers with a very limited spell list and it gets even worse.

    I'm not saying that you can't stop a "tippyverse" from forming, only that to stop it requires the interference of an outside force with both the ability and desire to do so and that the existence of said force is not a given occurrence.
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    Clearly, this is because Tippy equals Win.
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    Tippy=Win
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Wow... Tippy, you equal win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Immabozo View Post
    Tippy, I knew, in the back of my mind, that you would have the answer. Why? Cause you win. That's why.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Alright. I finally surrender. Tippy, you do in fact equal win. You have claimed the position of being my idol.

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  30. - Top - End - #60

    Default Re: The Introduction of magic into a D&D Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    Seeing as a lich created the first Shadesteel Golems in Eberron it would seem that at least 1 has. And the giants most certainly did. And the dragons.
    Do any of them show their face publicy? Have any of them created a massive empire that conquered all of Eberron under their magic encnanched boot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    Why would they care? The gods have no particular reason to give a **** about what mortals are doing until the mortals either challenge them or threaten to do great harm to one of their domains. And I don't know of any deity who has the "keep the world in the dark age's" domain or portfolio. In fact the tippyverse would prolly help them gain followers. Those in the cities now have lots of free time to devote to things like finding religion and those in the wilds now need the gods help more than ever because powerful temporal authority doesn't exist.
    1-Forces of chaos that nobody really knows what they want, Daelkyr.
    2-Dragon below and elder evils, hate pretty much everyone and everything, and indeed want to keep the world in the dark ages, if not worst.
    3-Psionic aliens trying to gain control of the world and wich hate arcane and divine magic, trying to create PsionicTippyvserse, wich would never be as powerfull as vancian Tippyverse.
    4-Cyre and the day of mourning. Probably first atempt at serious Tippyverse in Eberron. Nuked to oblivion with all kind of secondary nasty effects by mysterious force. I rest my case.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2008-12-01 at 04:44 PM.

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