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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: 133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

    If a dwagon pops, it could cause so much confusion in the hands of Parson...

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin
    I... won...
    I won a debate on the internet?
    Is it even possible to win a debate on the internet???
    Well if one has two reasonable, semi-logocal people and both their theories actually are based closely on the details of a story, then if one of the persons over looked an important detail, the other person can point that detail out and win the debate. (Although in this case it was more of me not being clever enough to find it.) Of course, that rarely happens as often people are not reasonable or the theories involve large amounts of conjecture...
    Last edited by Lamech; 2008-12-14 at 01:32 PM.
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    I think Lamech will make a great Sephiroth.
    A new New York IC OOC

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    Default Re: 133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

    Rob explained that there is an asymmetry between defenders and attackers for city battles. Defenders can move inside the city like it is a simple hex, without expending move, so they can go anywhere and engage enemies anywhere inside the city even when it's not their turn. Attackers can only move into other zones using move, hence zones for them work as separate hexes, and as such can only engage units in other zones during their turn.

    Now this makes out of turn fliers easy targets for the city's archers for they may fire without fear of retaliation. How many arrows does it take to kill an archon? Archons don't seem very robust. Jaclyn was killed by a blast that didn't inflict that much damage to Jillian and her gwiffon.
    Last edited by teratorn; 2008-12-14 at 02:26 PM.
    Avatar: ruthless Parson (Erfworld).

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    Default Re: 133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

    Quote Originally Posted by teratorn View Post
    Now this makes out of turn fliers easy targets for the city's archers for they may fire without fear of retaliation. How many arrows does it take to kill an archon? Archons don't seem very robust. Jaclyn was killed by a blast that didn't inflict that much damage to Jillian and her gwiffon.
    I always assumed that Wanda chose to protect Jillian from the effects of the AA defenses: she isn't "lit up" like the unipegataur and the archon in that same panel.
    Quo vadis?

  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Default Re: 133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

    Quote Originally Posted by teratorn
    Now this makes out of turn fliers easy targets for the city's archers for they may fire without fear of retaliation. How many arrows does it take to kill an archon? Archons don't seem very robust. Jaclyn was killed by a blast that didn't inflict that much damage to Jillian and her gwiffon.
    If that was the case leaving those Archons floating around would seem stuipid. I suspect their is a differance between attack and engage. The archons can probably return fire, or at least have someway of not being wiped out...
    Last edited by Lamech; 2008-12-14 at 07:17 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow
    I think Lamech will make a great Sephiroth.
    A new New York IC OOC

  5. - Top - End - #275
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    Default Re: 133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

    I hope Erfworld laws don't work like American law. I think this would count as signing a contract 'under duress' and would not be enforceable. Too bad for Charlie in that case.

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    Default Re: 133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

    Quote Originally Posted by Furin_Mirado View Post
    I hope Erfworld laws don't work like American law. I think this would count as signing a contract 'under duress' and would not be enforceable. Too bad for Charlie in that case.
    Thinkamancy trumps "law."

    Quote Originally Posted by lamech View Post
    If that was the case leaving those Archons floating around would seem stuipid. I suspect their is a differance between attack and engage. The archons can probably return fire, or at least have someway of not being wiped out...
    Ansom has little reason to anger Charlie, who could have already taken GK during his last turn.
    Quo vadis?

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    Default Re: 133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

    Quote Originally Posted by lamech View Post
    If that was the case leaving those Archons floating around would seem stuipid. I suspect their is a differance between attack and engage. The archons can probably return fire, or at least have someway of not being wiped out...
    Both attack or defence seem to be covered, at least that's what I infer from this:

    Quote Originally Posted by pclips View Post
    Either way, until their next turn, the Archons can only engage units that enter Gobwin Knob's airspace.
    Avatar: ruthless Parson (Erfworld).

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    Default Re: 133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

    Quote Originally Posted by teratorn
    Both attack or defence seem to be covered, at least that's what I infer from this:



    Originally Posted by pclips
    Either way, until their next turn, the Archons can only engage units that enter Gobwin Knob's airspace.
    I suspect their may be a misunderstanding here on someone's part... but this is the internet! Why should we let that stop us?

    What does that mean exactly? Can those archers engage the archons? If the archons are shot at can they return fire? Why can't we just assume Charlie isn't that stuipid and stop asking unanswerable questions?

    The last question gives me a thought: If the archers could defeat the archons Charlie wouldn't have left them there; Parson won't attack unless he can win. Therefore the archers will not attack the archons and the possiblity is moot. QED
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  9. - Top - End - #279
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    Default Re: 133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

    It's possible GK's archers got a lot more powerful since the last calculation

    Parson got the sword which is a force multiplier because it boosts leadership
    Also there's about 1000 uncroaked on Parson's side now. I don't know how many of them are archers, probably some, but not much.

    However, I doubt that GK's archers could wipe out the archons or even come close.

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    Default Re: 133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

    Quote Originally Posted by vrellum View Post
    Parson got the sword which is a force multiplier because it boosts leadership
    We don't know that. It may simply make Parson behave more like a warlord with his leadership rank by adding something he was lacking.
    Last edited by teratorn; 2008-12-15 at 09:25 AM.
    Avatar: ruthless Parson (Erfworld).

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    Default Re: 133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

    A low leadership score is good for Parson. It means Stanley isn't inspired to put him in a frontline combat unit. Parson is better suited to commanding from the rear, where Jillian with her 9 leadership is a great frontline commander.

    But, page 106.3, the Luckamancy Charms box maze, tells us the Sword has "Leadership! Combat! Ruthlessness!" So, yes, the sword conveys Leadership. We just don't know how much or in what situation. Caesar conveys a diffeent bonus to units in his own stack vs. units in stacks in the same hex. A combat weapon suggests stack leadership instead of Hex leadership.

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    Default Re: 133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreistor View Post
    A low leadership score is good for Parson. It means Stanley isn't inspired to put him in a frontline combat unit. Parson is better suited to commanding from the rear, where Jillian with her 9 leadership is a great frontline commander.

    But, page 106.3, the Luckamancy Charms box maze, tells us the Sword has "Leadership! Combat! Ruthlessness!" So, yes, the sword conveys Leadership. We just don't know how much or in what situation. Caesar conveys a diffeent bonus to units in his own stack vs. units in stacks in the same hex. A combat weapon suggests stack leadership instead of Hex leadership.
    I think that teratorn's point was that 'Leadership' is an overloaded term. It could mean the Leadership stat (as most of us have assumed) but it could also mean actual Leadership skills, such as those a good leader in our world must possess.

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    Default Re: 133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post
    I think that teratorn's point was that 'Leadership' is an overloaded term. It could mean the Leadership stat (as most of us have assumed) but it could also mean actual Leadership skills, such as those a good leader in our world must possess.
    Either you concede that possibility or do you suggest too that "ruthlessness" must perforce also be a stat?
    Quo vadis?

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    Default Re: 133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

    Quote Originally Posted by DevilDan View Post
    Either you concede that possibility or do you suggest too that "ruthlessness" must perforce also be a stat?
    Neither. The overloaded nature of on term does not perforce mean that grouped terms share that nature.

    Ack! Academic-speak. Let me try again...

    Neither. That's a 'guilt-by association' fallacy. Just because 'leadership' can mean one of two separate things doesn't mean 'ruthlessness' does as well, simply because they were listed in the same list.

    I'm not sure that helped... this is what happens when you spend more time in the past 24 hours writing than sleeping... in fact calculating the ration hits a div0 error, so that says something.
    Last edited by fendrin; 2008-12-15 at 01:14 PM.

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    Default Re: 133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post
    Neither.
    So it is not possible in your estimation...

    I see your point, but what I am saying is that there are obviously different ways in which the sword could possibly affect or "enhance" Parson.
    Quo vadis?

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    Default Re: 133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

    Quote Originally Posted by DevilDan View Post
    So it is not possible in your estimation...

    I see your point, but what I am saying is that there are obviously different ways in which the sword could possibly affect or "enhance" Parson.
    No, it is possible, but not necessarily so.
    I happen to agree with your point, BTW. I think that 'Leadership' and 'Combat' are stat-mechanic effects, but Ruthlessness is Something ElseTM.

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    Default Re: 133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post
    No, it is possible, but not necessarily so.
    This summarizes most discussions in the Erfworld threads.
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    Default Re: 133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post
    No, it is possible, but not necessarily so.
    I happen to agree with your point, BTW. I think that 'Leadership' and 'Combat' are stat-mechanic effects, but Ruthlessness is Something ElseTM.
    Quote Originally Posted by teratorn View Post
    This summarizes most discussions in the Erfworld threads.
    Yes just like any rule based game, all subject to interpetation.
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    Default Re: 133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

    Quote Originally Posted by evnafets View Post
    Has anyone else tried to read the agreement?
    I didn't even TRY that...amazing work.
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    Default Re: 133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

    Quote Originally Posted by teratorn View Post
    Rob explained that there is an asymmetry between defenders and attackers for city battles. Defenders can move inside the city like it is a simple hex, without expending move, so they can go anywhere and engage enemies anywhere inside the city even when it's not their turn. Attackers can only move into other zones using move, hence zones for them work as separate hexes, and as such can only engage units in other zones during their turn.
    Hm when did he say that?

    I was under the impression that it was 0 movement for any unit to get from zone to zone within a hex. The only thing stopping an attacking force is that only some of the zones overlap. So the archons could hit walls or garrison but not the tunnels.

    Quote Originally Posted by teratorn View Post
    Now this makes out of turn fliers easy targets for the city's archers for they may fire without fear of retaliation. How many arrows does it take to kill an archon? Archons don't seem very robust. Jaclyn was killed by a blast that didn't inflict that much damage to Jillian and her gwiffon.
    If things work as you believe they do leaving units in airspace seems an awfully risky move. There's no way charlie would ldeliberately leave his units in a a position where theyd be unable to defend themselves.
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    Default Re: 133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

    Quote Originally Posted by kreszantas View Post
    Yes just like any rule based game, all subject to interpetation.
    Actually an ideal set of rules should not need to be interpreted, but rather be such that everyone reading it would get the same understanding.

    The thing about Efrworld is that we cannot read the rules, and so we must guess, sum up and theorise.

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    Default Re: 133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

    Quote Originally Posted by MattR View Post
    Hm when did he say that?
    In the thread about City hexes and archons:

    Quote Originally Posted by pclips View Post
    I think the main thing that's confusing people is this:
    • If you own the city, you can move around in it without move cost.

    That means even zone to zone, and even when it is not your turn, so the constraint does not apply to the defenders. Sorry if that's confusing, but it was more or less explained in a Klog.
    Avatar: ruthless Parson (Erfworld).

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    Default Re: 133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

    Quote Originally Posted by teratorn View Post
    In the thread about City hexes and archons:
    * If you own the city, you can move around in it without move cost.

    That means even zone to zone, and even when it is not your turn, so the constraint does not apply to the defenders. Sorry if that's confusing, but it was more or less explained in a Klog.
    Hmm...is tactical combat in ErfWorld sequential? In other words, in a given turn, if you are attacking 3 different hexes/zones, do they play out one after the other (as in most turn-based games), or simultaneously?

    If it is sequential, unrestricted off-turn movement between city zones by defenders seems pretty overpowered: just move all of the city's defenders into the zone that is being attacked first, then after that combat completes, move them all into the next zone being attacked, etc. It would basically mean the defenders would be effectively quadrupled (if there are 4 city zones) and even worse from a strategy/tactical wargame perspective, would eliminate the trade-offs usually involved in unit placement...
    Oh it is the eyeball one.

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    Default Re: 133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

    Quote Originally Posted by ShinyBrowncoat View Post
    Hmm...is tactical combat in ErfWorld sequential? In other words, in a given turn, if you are attacking 3 different hexes/zones, do they play out one after the other (as in most turn-based games), or simultaneously?
    Ansom's fight with Wanda was in the airspace, and at the same time siege was attacking other zone (the walls). So we have confirmation that during their turn RCC can multi-zone engage. The attack is sequential only in that the courtyard is out of reach until RCC has control of one of the other zones.

    Defenders do get a huge advantage from this zone thing, but that happens mostly on their side's turn.
    Last edited by teratorn; 2008-12-16 at 03:51 PM.
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    Default Re: 133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

    Quote Originally Posted by teratorn View Post
    Ansom's fight with Wanda was in the airspace, and at the same time siege was attacking other zone (the walls). So we have confirmation that during their turn RCC can multi-zone engage. The attack is sequential only in that the courtyard is out of reach until RCC has control of one of the other zones.

    Defenders do get a huge advantage from this zone thing, but that happens mostly on their side's turn.
    Yup, basically if all three exterior zones are under attack, you have to split your forces up between all three. If only one is under attack, you can put all of your forces there (well, except airspace, only fliers & archers can defend that).

    Although we shouldn't assume that troop transfer between zones is instantaneous. So if you have all of your force on the walls, you might lose the city to a sneak attack through the tunnels.

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    Default Re: 133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

    There is only one thing I like to know: how strong are archons. Three archons wiped out the dwagons, but dwagons only had couple of hits left. What chance do they have againtst healthly dwagons?
    Find a hole in the wall, even if you have to make one with your own head.

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    Default Re: 133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

    Quote Originally Posted by teratorn View Post
    Defenders do get a huge advantage from this zone thing, but that happens mostly on their side's turn.
    What do you mean? The big deal to me is that they can move from area to area (hex-analogs) even when its not their turn.

    Quote Originally Posted by MalikT View Post
    There is only one thing I like to know: how strong are archons. Three archons wiped out the dwagons, but dwagons only had couple of hits left. What chance do they have againtst healthly dwagons?
    There's also the question of a dwagon's level. There are stronger ones and weaker ones. Archons could have strong attacks or offensives "spells," but they may relatively low defense stats.
    Quo vadis?

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    Default Re: 133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

    There is a question of AoE of archons beams. If they can attack only one target at the time archers will devastate them.
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    Default Re: 133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

    Quote Originally Posted by MalikT View Post
    There is a question of AoE of archons beams. If they can attack only one target at the time archers will devastate them.
    well, depending on the archon's defense stats and hits. if archons are high def and hits, they could take out many archers before the archers could take one of them out, even if the archon's attacks are not AoE.

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    Default Re: 133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

    Quote Originally Posted by MalikT View Post
    There is a question of AoE of archons beams. If they can attack only one target at the time archers will devastate them.
    They could have different types of attacks too, different options available depending on the strength of the enemy (or even whether he/she/it is in the air or on the ground).
    Quo vadis?

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