133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

[Lamech]

There is only one thing I like to know: how strong are archons. Three archons wiped out the dwagons, but dwagons only had couple of hits left. What chance do they have againtst healthly dwagons?

Well I do believe after Ansom and Vinny arrived, Vinny killed five of the fourteem left, so the archons killed about three each. And they also implied that they were stronger than the average archons, but maybe all archons cost "a lot".

So... I'm going to say weaker than a powerful warlord? Maybe half of the power of a Vinny?

There is a question of AoE of archons beams. If they can attack only one target at the time archers will devastate them.

Not so much, the numbers, are evenish, so unless Parson has aquired more archers, the average archer would need to be stronger than the average archon. And I doubt the coalition would divert archers from ther siege for any reason, so he probably didn't gain any from the tunnels; nor does it look like he will gain any from the above ground forces, due to the distinct lack of breach.

[PyritePyro]

Sure, but we're talking about killing almost dead dwagons anyway. While it's still impressive, because they didn't get oneshotted, it's not like they could take that many if they weren't already beat to boop and back.

[teratorn]

Not so much, the numbers, are evenish, so unless Parson has aquired more archers, the average archer would need to be stronger than the average archon.

If RCC doesn't breach the wall this turn, and they ally with Charlie, then in the next turn Parson goes before the archons. So he basically gets a free shot at all the units stationed in GK's airspace. The fact that Charlie left his units there means that probably he wasn't that worried... unless some of the uncroaked are archers and he wasn't counting on those. A few extra uncroaked archons and maybe Parson could even hold Charlie for one turn (leaving time for the dwagons to arrive).

Of course we don't have enough info to know if that is feasible. We'd need to know the hitpoints each archon has, the damage inflicted by the arrows, the archer's accuracy, etc

[SeraphRainy]

This whole archer to archon thing seems like a moot point to me. This is all being on the archers being able to shoot from onther city zone into the airspace. That may possibly be an option but it would have to be done from somwere like the tower that overlaps the airspace. This would mean that the archons could return fire if engaged.

This I base off of Parsons comment when Stanley left with the dwagons. He said that RCC air forces could now buzz the walls with only the archers firing back. That would mean they would be hitting the ground units on the walls by selectivly engaging them like the donut of doom plan or ansoms attack. So it never says that archers can attack air units. Only that they get a weak potshot at them if they fly directly overhead.

Another thing to think about is how supposedly weak the archers are. Parson almost didn't care that the archers got to swipe at the dwagons. And the only reason that that effected them so much was just how many hexes of seige the dwagons had to kill. Parson also didn't think his archers would do didly squat to the RCC if they buzzed the walls. So how many archons could they croak in a turn even if the Archons couldnt shoot back. Besides next turn all of the injured archons would heal and a very POed charlie would be waiting with more than enough air force to take the garison before the next turn.

[DevilDan]

I'm curious: how do we know that archers could reach units in GK's airspace? I guess one problem is that we don't know at what height (if that is indeed the criterion) Airspace ends and wall or courtyard or ground or tower begins.

[fendrin]

This whole archer to archon thing seems like a moot point to me. This is all being on the archers being able to shoot from onther city zone into the airspace. That may possibly be an option but it would have to be done from somwere like the tower that overlaps the airspace. This would mean that the archons could return fire if engaged.

This I base off of Parsons comment when Stanley left with the dwagons. He said that RCC air forces could now buzz the walls with only the archers firing back. That would mean they would be hitting the ground units on the walls by selectivly engaging them like the donut of doom plan or ansoms attack. So it never says that archers can attack air units. Only that they get a weak potshot at them if they fly directly overhead.

Another thing to think about is how supposedly weak the archers are. Parson almost didn't care that the archers got to swipe at the dwagons. And the only reason that that effected them so much was just how many hexes of seige the dwagons had to kill. Parson also didn't think his archers would do didly squat to the RCC if they buzzed the walls. So how many archons could they croak in a turn even if the Archons couldnt shoot back. Besides next turn all of the injured archons would heal and a very POed charlie would be waiting with more than enough air force to take the garison before the next turn.

1. The archons cannot engage units that are not in the Airspace. That is not the same as not attacking them. If the archers engage the Archons, the Archons can return fire.

2. Once an engagement begins, it does not end until one side defeats the other or the side who's turn it is moves out of combat range. Previously that has been Vinny's 'The Flight' plan, Jillian 'punching through' the dwagon ring, and Stanley's assault on the TV forces. In this case it would be the archers moving to an area the Archons cannot fire at (the dungeons?). Assuming the archers do not flee, the Archons would not heal until after they finish off the archers (presuming that the Archons would win).

3. Because of (2), if for some reason despite (1) the archons could not fire back (an anti-magic field, or some such thing), the archers would be able to croak all of the archons without taking a single hit.

[Kreistor]

This I base off of Parsons comment when Stanley left with the dwagons. He said that RCC air forces could now buzz the walls with only the archers firing back.

Actually he said in 94.4, "I think we need to save our air defenses. We'll just have to let 'em buzz us again."

Further, from Klog 7, the list of GK forces lists not a single archery unit.

Parson doesn't have any archers (only infantry), so this entire "Archer vs. Archon" debate is pointless. There are no significant defenses remaining to Parson (all fired by Wanda), leaving only the 6 dragons (there may be more, but it is unlikely) returning with Stanley and Wanda's air force to fight the Archons. I don't like those odds.

That's another good reason for the story to not include Ansom agreeing to Charlie's terms. There's little to nothing Parson can do to stop an invasion by the Archons. Charlie can call him up, ask, "How many Archons do I need to take GK's garrison now?" and win. God in the Machine has to step in here for Ansom to say, "No."

[SteveMB]

Further, from Klog 7, the list of GK forces lists not a single archery unit.

Huh? What else would the line "32 Archer-class infrantry, various levels" mean?

[teratorn]

1. The archons cannot engage units that are not in the Airspace. That is not the same as not attacking them. If the archers engage the Archons, the Archons can return fire.

How? Their shots should also have zero move and as such would not leave their zone... It's like Jillian's mount going after Stanley, fire would hit an invisible barrier. **

If archers can hit archons all Parson needs to do is go after one archon at a time. He has Ansom's turn and his next turn to do it.

I agree the discussion is moot because we don't know the stats involved.

** but then, would a dead archon fall from airspace into the ground?

[enthar]

How? Their shots should also have zero move and as such would not leave their zone... It's like Jillian's mount going after Stanley, fire would hit an invisible barrier. **

If archers can hit archons all Parson needs to do is go after one archon at a time. He has Ansom's turn and his next turn to do it.

I agree the discussion is moot because we don't know the stats involved.

** but then, would a dead archon fall from airspace into the ground?

We know from

Do you remember when Ansom was getting word passed along through the column about the results of Parson's attack? That was not on the Coalition's turn, but physical notes were still being passed between hexes. Did we specifically show a note passed across a hex? No. The story didn't need it.

that physical objects can pass between hex barriers. They do not need 'move', cause that would mean that arrows would have their own independent move stat, which would necessarily be zeroed when it wasn't their turn, etc etc. So, suffice to say that Arrows can make the transition. How I imagine it is that there are several 'haxx' put into place, presumably by the Titans, that dictate exceptions to physics as we understand it- turns, hex barriers, healing, upkeep, popping and decaying, etc. But except for those haxx, things proceed as you might expect. Down stays down, arrows follow Newtons laws of motion, poking something with a sharp stick may cause it to bleed, so on.

So, it is valid to speculate on the possible uses of Archers vs. Archons. Of course, once the Archers engage the Archons (as opposed to, say, the Siege or Ansom, which someone is clearly shooting at) the Archons can fire back. 32 Archers vs. 30 some odd Archons?

Just taking the simplest explanation, it seems likely that the reason the Archers aren't messing with the Archons is because they would get blasted to ash for little gain, and that the real threat to Charlescomm if/when he re-allies with RCC is all those uncroaked the Archons will have to wade through to finally take the garrison. Quantity has a Quality all its own.

--
enthar

[Suicide Junkie]

...physical objects can pass between hex barriers.

Not necessarily. They could have just had infantry walk up to the edge and call out the message.
The units in the next hex write it down, and then carry it to the far side where they read it to the next hex over, and so on.

[Finwe]

Well I do believe after Ansom and Vinny arrived, Vinny killed five of the fourteem left, so the archons killed about three each. And they also implied that they were stronger than the average archons, but maybe all archons cost "a lot".

So... I'm going to say weaker than a powerful warlord? Maybe half of the power of a Vinny?

We really don't know how an archon compares to a fully healed dwagon. The dwagons killed had very few hits left - it's possibly the archons have a fast, moderately damaging attack, which allowed them to kill the nearly dead dwagons without retaliation. Given that we've seen a dwagon one-shot Jillian, it's pretty likely that they have slow, but devastating attacks, and with enough hits to soak up a few pot-shots, could each be a match for several archons.

[Kreistor]

Huh? What else would the line "32 Archer-class infrantry, various levels" mean?

Ah, my oversight. But I'm bettingthey're no match for at least 30 Archons.

[enthar]

Not necessarily. They could have just had infantry walk up to the edge and call out the message.
The units in the next hex write it down, and then carry it to the far side where they read it to the next hex over, and so on.

Yes I suppose they could be doing that. However, the quote I used is from pclips, who is essentially a Titan, so I choose to take his words at their plain English meaning. Thus, I work on the principle that they are passing actual physical notes/reports through hex boundaries.

This also gives archers the ability to shoot from say, the wall area hex into the hex(es) around the city. Or from a neighboring hex into a target hex. Or just from a neighboring hex into some percentage of the border area of the target hex, depending on a range stat, which would make archers quite valuable indeed, properly used... much like air forces in that they can strike with little fear of retaliation.

--
enthar

[fendrin]

This also gives archers the ability to shoot from say, the wall area hex into the hex(es) around the city. Or from a neighboring hex into a target hex. Or just from a neighboring hex into some percentage of the border area of the target hex, depending on a range stat, which would make archers quite valuable indeed, properly used... much like air forces in that they can strike with little fear of retaliation.

I think you may be taking the 'physical objects can pass through hex borders' a little far here.

Units (other than lookamancers) seem to have little or no awareness of what occupies hexes other than their own. Otherwise Vinny wouldn't have had to sacrifice his bats. How can archers target what they are unaware of? Even if a lookamancer informed the archers that their were enemy units in the adjacent hex, the archers would not be able to target them.

For that matter, the archers were not shooting the RCC forces prior to the RCC assault, even though they are right at the bottom of the wall (and just to forstall one possible argument, GK has had a turn between that page and the RCC assault). It would seem that there is a hex barrier just beyond the walls (maybe a few feet?) that the RCC forces had to cross (entering into GK's hex) in order to attack. Crossing into that hex also allowed the archers to attack them.

It may not be a targeting issue per se, it may be a game rule flat out preventing inter-hex attacks, just like there is a game rule preventing units from crossing hex borders if they have no move (such as when it is not their turn).

[Lamech]

Yes I suppose they could be doing that. However, the quote I used is from pclips, who is essentially a Titan, so I choose to take his words at their plain English meaning. Thus, I work on the principle that they are passing actual physical notes/reports through hex boundaries.

This also gives archers the ability to shoot from say, the wall area hex into the hex(es) around the city. Or from a neighboring hex into a target hex. Or just from a neighboring hex into some percentage of the border area of the target hex, depending on a range stat, which would make archers quite valuable indeed, properly used... much like air forces in that they can strike with little fear of retaliation.

Like fendrin said there is some sort of rule preventing it. Probably more similar to the rule that prevents the archons from attacking the undead, but whatever. Anyway I really want to see some serious testing by Parson of what he can all do, and more importantly what technologies he can all inport. For example falling rocks seem dangerous, could Parson make a siege weapon and hurl rocks. (Actually Parson seems to not be a master engineer, or chemist or anything that could make new weapons, maybe if another perfect warlord is summoned.)

Units (other than lookamancers) seem to have little or no awareness of what occupies hexes other than their own.

I'm going to have to disagree with this, they seem to be able to see straight through the hex borders; those maps showed what the next terrain type was. I think the limitation is more of a "the dwagons could be hiding in the trees" or "the bats can't see far enough". Actually I have good evidence that shows units can see in to other hexs!

Erfworlders see just like we do with all the same limitations. Thats why Ansom could be seen from the tower of Efdup. Perhaps Parson could teach proper use of glass to the erflings; spy glasses would be a big help in vision.

[fendrin]

I'm going to have to disagree with this, they seem to be able to see straight through the hex borders; those maps showed what the next terrain type was. I think the limitation is more of a "the dwagons could be hiding in the trees" or "the bats can't see far enough". Actually I have good evidence that shows units can see in to other hexs!

Erfworlders see just like we do with all the same limitations. Thats why Ansom could be seen from the tower of Efdup. Perhaps Parson could teach proper use of glass to the erflings; spy glasses would be a big help in vision.

Hmm. On the other hand, Webinar didn't see the spidews coming until they were (apparently) in the same hex. Same thing with Jillian and the TVs waiting for Stanley (neither side seems to have seen the other until they were in the same hex). Oh, and lets not forget that Jillian being one hex away from the wounded dwagons was not the same as discovering them (it's clear from this one that she was in the hex with them, not in the adjacent hex).

That leads me to believe that there must be something else going on in that klog, such as walls/towers giving an advantage to vision (that is not also granted by flying) or it being possible to see large groups of units (i.e. an army) from farther away than one can see individual units.

[Morchaint]

I like the series, and Ive mostly posted in the oots section, so here is my first
erf post. I think the series does good, yet odd work. but Im getting frustrated for waiting a week or maybe more for new posts. what is the schedule for
erf posts?

that being said there are some really funny things in erfworld. even tho it takes
a comic or two to get the joke out.

[SteveMB]

Pages come out as the authors' schedules permit. The management has declared the subject out of bounds because it has a tendency to degenerate into flamage.

That said, feel free to comment on whatever else strikes your interest.

[Lamech]

Hmm. On the other hand, Webinar didn't see the spidews coming until they were (apparently) in the same hex. Same thing with Jillian and the TVs waiting for Stanley (neither side seems to have seen the other until they were in the same hex). Oh, and lets not forget that Jillian being one hex away from the wounded dwagons was not the same as discovering them (it's clear from this one that she was in the hex with them, not in the adjacent hex).

Webinar and spidews: He doesn't sound surprised, and he wouldn't have known if an attack was coming, until they crossed over.
Jillian and TV: I think this one supports me; by the time tool sees the dwagons and the knights ask for orders TV has them surronded, I don't think tool could even see through the whole hex. (Of course, this means that most units can only see less than a hex over, so one needs to enter hexs to see units in the middle.)
Jillian and dwagons: They have clearly closed between seeing the dwagons, and when we see them next to the dwagons in the hex. They may have crossed a hex border, but we don't know.

Of course, not actually being able to see a whole hex like I'm arguing is pretty similar to not being able to see units in the next hex...

[fendrin]

Webinar and spidews: He doesn't sound surprised, and he wouldn't have known if an attack was coming, until they crossed over.

Why wouldn't he have known if he could see across the hex borders? There's not that much blocking line of sight there, no mountains, no trees, etc.; it's GK's turn so what else does Webby have to do but keep an eye out for attackers?

Jillian and TV: I think this one supports me; by the time tool sees the dwagons and the knights ask for orders TV has them surronded, I don't think tool could even see through the whole hex. (Of course, this means that most units can only see less than a hex over, so one needs to enter hexs to see units in the middle.)

Again, GK's turn. If the Stanley could have clearly seen into the next hex, He would have seen Jillian and crew (arguably the forces behind him were hidden, but Jillian clearly was not).

Jillian and dwagons: They have clearly closed between seeing the dwagons, and when we see them next to the dwagons in the hex. They may have crossed a hex border, but we don't know.

True... but then why would have Stanley said "She's one hex away!" instead of "She's found them!" Clearly she hadn't found them at that point, because finding the wounded dwagons is far more significant than geographic proximity.

Of course, not actually being able to see a whole hex like I'm arguing is pretty similar to not being able to see units in the next hex...

Well, yes and no. The range of vision may be based centered on a unit and have no relation to hex boundaries at all, or it may be specifically hex based.

Keep in mind that we really have no clue how big a hex is. Our best indicator is GK's outer walls, which aren't really all that big... maybe a half-mile across at most? That's not all that far for visible ranges.

[Fjolnir]

you're neglecting one thing, once hired, webby, dora and jaclyn are toast, as are the rest of the rotting air corps with the possible exeption of wanda who might make it to the courtyard before the archons get unleashed on the airspace also of note wanda didn't use ALL the AA on that turn, she fired off most of it so they do have the ability to kill some of the archons with stuff besides the archers and their hitses

[teratorn]

you're neglecting one thing, once hired, webby, dora and jaclyn are toast, as are the rest of the rotting air corps with the possible exeption of wanda who might make it to the courtyard before the archons get unleashed on the airspace

The uncroaked fliers ought to be on the walls by then. Ansom for now probably just wants a ride. Maybe the archons can put his carpet where he can jump on to it and provide him an escort so he's safe from Wanda's toys.

Either way, the important thing is what will happen with the pliers. Ansom's words seem to imply Wanda was "doing" something to them. Maybe she's attuning. That'll change everything.

[kreszantas]

Archons/Charlie can not do anything until next turn, they have already used up their move this day EVEN if they sign the contract with Ansom/Jetstone. The only thing the Archons/Charlie CAN do is return HOSTILE fire from any of GK units. Charlie warned Parson not to break anything of his, so you can bet Parson WILL NOT ORDER attacks on the Archons, while in DEFENSIVE mode (although Wanda group could be labeled an attack, but actually a retalitation strike on Jetstone not Charlie)

Edit [The author of this post needs to learn how to speeel]

[dr pepper]

My speculation:

The normal rule of observation is that you can see all terrain features inside your own hex and every unit or structure in it. Physical barriers, stealthy movement, camouflage and foolamancy modify this by requiring spot checks. Observational skills, numbers, and lookamancy reduce or neutralize those.

Likewise, when you are near an edge, you can see part of the way into the next hex, including terrain features, but you cannot see units or structures. Lookamancy and scouts can get you a view as if you were inside, otherwise you have to cross the boundry.

Hence Webinar's force could not see the spidew patrol until it entered their hex, and vice versa. However, he could see enough of the other hex to know that there was a road.

[Godskook]

The only thing the Archons/Charlie CAN do is return HOSTILE fire from any of GK units.

Actually, the Archons are capable of picking fights with units that enter GK airspace. Not only does the Author explicitly say so, but Parson would not have 'asked' Charlie for permission to fly Wanda out there otherwise.

[Sieggy]

Actually, the Archons are capable of picking fights with units that enter GK airspace. Not only does the Author explicitly say so, but Parson would not have 'asked' Charlie for permission to fly Wanda out there otherwise.

However, you have Webinar, Dora, Jaclyn, and 2 unipegataurs closing on Ansom rapidly while he is in negotiations with Charley. The uncroaked will carry out their orders, which are to capture Ansom. If the Archons interfere, does that constitute opening combat?

The question is, unless the WAF deliberately attacks the Archons, but merely bypass them (they have no orders to attack the Archons, and will do so only if the Archons attempt to prevent them from carrying out her orders), can the Archons respond in a hostile manner? Even if allied with the RCC (which, BTW, we don't know, as we really haven't seen that agreement, it could just be a 100K schmucker get-me-the-hell-out-of-here contract),

And time is critical - there is a horde of uncroaked surrounding him which will take a single segment / round to close, as well as the WAF who will be there long before Ansom gets to the fine print. So, he has 4 options - 1) Press 'Accept', knowing that Charley is putting it to him but feels he has no choice, 2) Try to read it in full and hope the Archons cover him during that time, 3) Fight valiantly, and go down swinging, and 4) Jump.

Remember, the outside edge of the wall is open to him, and there are siege towers and cloth golems down there, which are better to fall on than the ground below. And once back in friendly hands (well, friendlier), he should be safe. From his enemies, though not his allies.

Also remember that Wanda will have recovered the Arkenpliers next segment / round (simultaneous with Ansom accepting, if he does), and can be back in action immediately, though that leaves her open to fire from the Archons if hostilities have been initiated.

[fendrin]

However, you have Webinar, Dora, Jaclyn, and 2 unipegataurs closing on Ansom rapidly while he is in negotiations with Charley. The uncroaked will carry out their orders, which are to capture Ansom. If the Archons interfere, does that constitute opening combat?

If the WAF (Wanda's Air Force... I like it) are still in the airspace, they would be able to. If the WAF has exited the airspace (which they would need to capture Ansom, right?) then there's nothing the Archons could do until their turn.

The question is, unless the WAF deliberately attacks the Archons, but merely bypass them (they have no orders to attack the Archons, and will do so only if the Archons attempt to prevent them from carrying out her orders), can the Archons respond in a hostile manner? Even if allied with the RCC (which, BTW, we don't know, as we really haven't seen that agreement, it could just be a 100K schmucker get-me-the-hell-out-of-here contract)

So long as the WAF is in the airspace the Archons can initiate combat, with or without an alliance. The issue with the archers is that the archers are not in the airspace.

And time is critical - there is a horde of uncroaked surrounding him which will take a single segment / round to close, as well as the WAF who will be there long before Ansom gets to the fine print. So, he has 4 options - 1) Press 'Accept', knowing that Charley is putting it to him but feels he has no choice, 2) Try to read it in full and hope the Archons cover him during that time, 3) Fight valiantly, and go down swinging, and 4) Jump.

Remember, the outside edge of the wall is open to him, and there are siege towers and cloth golems down there, which are better to fall on than the ground below. And once back in friendly hands (well, friendlier), he should be safe. From his enemies, though not his allies.

If you look closely at Panel 4 you will see that he is actually on the GK side of the wall. The ladder is what gives it away. If he were on the RCC side of the wall then we would see the siege towers instead. So that eliminates #4, #2 is eliminated by the fact that he's not in the airspace (if he had fallen on someone else's turn, would he have landed on the zone boundary instead of the wall?), so the archons cannot attack anything that is directly threatening him.

Thus only 1 and 3 are viable, though I suppose a combination of 3 and 4 could work... fight his way to the outer edge of the wall then jump (which would probably croak him anyway).

Also remember that Wanda will have recovered the Arkenpliers next segment / round (simultaneous with Ansom accepting, if he does), and can be back in action immediately, though that leaves her open to fire from the Archons if hostilities have been initiated.

I'm not sure just how 'round' based combat is. Even if it is, it may take more than one 'round' for Wanda to get the pliers.

[kreszantas]

Actually, the Archons are capable of picking fights with units that enter GK airspace. Not only does the Author explicitly say so, but Parson would not have 'asked' Charlie for permission to fly Wanda out there otherwise.

They are allowed to pick fights, on units entering the airspace. However at the time BEFORE the agreement button is pushed. Charlie and Parson are on the cease-fire agreement. So techincally Charlie can NOT attack anything that does not attack HIM FIRST the airspace. Which was what my [lack of quote] response was to the Archons being able to do something with Jetstone THIS turn.

[fendrin]

They are allowed to pick fights, on units entering the airspace. However at the time BEFORE the agreement button is pushed. Charlie and Parson are on the cease-fire agreement. So techincally Charlie can NOT attack anything that does not attack HIM FIRST the airspace. Which was what my [lack of quote] response was to the Archons being able to do something with Jetstone THIS turn.

No. The only agreement currently between Parson and Charlie is that Parson still owes Charlie a number of calculations. That deal does not prevent Charlie from attacking GK forces.