133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

[Monan]

Ever played a game with a "withhold action" function? That's what it seems the Archons have done, being fully able to attack but choosing to withhold that action for later. Allying with Jetstone would probably also enable them to use move, if they have any left.

What I'm thinking at this moment is that Wanda is going to attune to the pliers and give a majorly scary buff to all the undead nearby. All that talk with the bats seems to be a setup for this.

As for Ansome, it seems that he'll be left with no choice but to accept or perish. It might be wiser for him to take the perish option, but I doubt he will.

Rob and Jamie have been pretty distinct about when an organization has a turn they take it then end their turn. So I don't think they can use the "wait" function. Unless they are in an area with an enemy and one of them is a warlord and chooses to attack or not. That would be the only loophole for the Archons to attack given what we know of the mechanics of Erfworld.

[starlord]

Seeing as she is skilled at multiple magical disciplines, she could be Faq's missing predictamancer. But if she foresaw this specific incident, why was she preparing to leave to go bail out Stanley?

No, I think if she had any real predictamancy, the whole Jillian thing wouldn't have either occurred or hit her so hard.

[teratorn]

If they can switch sides, it won't be a problem. Note, though, that archons may be casters or may otherwise have leadership. In addition, we don't know what control the arkendish gives to Charlie; speculating ex nihilo, Charlie could function as a long-distance leader.

Yes, they can avoid engagements, but RCC's stacks without warlords would still be forced to attack them -- only on the next do the archons merge into RCC's turn. I'm thinking about siege archers and such.

Altough the archons are probably not enough to win the fight (we don't know how many times they can "fire"), they probably can remove most of the uncroaked force from the wall. RCC will breach the outer wall.

I'm curious to see what the pliers can do.

[MirEgal]

I think Charlie is able to attack in this turn. His archons are in the same hex, and as we have seen, it is possible to move between different zones of Gobwin Knob outside of the own turn.

However, I think he will only ensure and secure the breach of the wall and the life of Ansom. It's the best option for Charlie. He is helping the RCC, but he is not risking his own archons. He will threat Parson, so the outer walls may be broken, and then he will wait.

Parson will maybe recall all uncroaked troops into the area within the inner walls. Ansom will end turn to reorganize his troops and to prepare the final attack. Next turn Stanley arrives, and together with Parson, Wanda and her Arkenpliers they will win the final battle.

[Balance]

The Arkenpliers seem to be free falling off the wall down to the jetstone troops below. Wanda doesn't have thm.

Has anyone else tried to read the agreement?

I believe I can pick out and/or infer a bit more:

Terms of Alliance

...Ansom
...Jetstone
...a bind-(ing)
...(ally)
...(?ac-/even-?)tual
...(coali)tion with
...for the
...(agr)eement
for a term not less th(an)
more than twelve tu(rns)[, to com-]
-mence upon indicat(ing) [accep-]
-tance of the followin(g) [terms]

Compensation shall [be rendered/paid to]
Charlescomm by Je(tstone)....

() indicates inferred completion of words, [] indicates speculation about missing words, and / separates alternate possible completions.

It looks like Charlie sets a minimum and maximum number of turns for his contracts, which only makes sense. It looks like contract boilerplate, though. The real meat of it--the changes--don't appear to be visible in the section shown.

[Chocowatte]

- What have you done to it?

Looks like Wanda already has some power over the pliers before she even has it in hand, which gives credence to the whole, pliers were made for wanda theory. Which I believe too.

I think Wanda will retrieve the pliers before Stanley engages and be able to retreat to safety. She's the speculated predictamancer, so she's probably seen this moment for years. The battle is about to turn very nasty though, with charlie in place, I expect all Parson can do is a holding action until Stanley arrives.

Hmm... if the pliers in the incorrect hands can turn uncroaked to dust with a single hit...

Whatever Insane "Uncroaking/Uncroaked energizing" power Wanda may unlock... *shiver*

May make her previous Airspace-death-fire blast look like a cantrip in comparison.

~Chocowatte

[Warren]

Regarding the whole "when can Charlie act?" question:

If you'll recall the whole "detached air force" gambit, the plan was to terminate Charlie's contract with Jetstone, so that he could ally with Doombat's folk - and act on their term. It looks like allied units share a turn (which would make sense), and presumably in this case it's Jetstone's turn. The only question would be whether Charlie can act within this Jetstone turn (the one in which Ansom attacked, so it's obviously Jetstone's turn right now), or has to wait until the next one.

Regarding the balance of forces:

Hamster told Charlie how many Archons he'd need to capture the Knob ... a turn ago or so. That's before Wanda made a huge number of low-quality ground units. It's hard for me to tell - it might be before Wanda made a small number of high-quality air units, or before Hamster understood her high-quality air units. It's before Hamster's sword was made complete, with its leadership bonus (and ruthlessness). Wanda's almost certain to get the Arkenpliers within this Jetstone turn, although it's anyone's guess what they will mean to the balance of forces.

All of the forces Hamster's gained since giving the calculation to Charlie are available to Hamster within this turn - and that's even if Charlie is allowed to join the Jetstone turn instantly upon agreeing to the alliance, and doesn't have to wait a turn. As several people have mentioned, it's quite possible that Stanley, who fled (possibly back towards the Knob) for at least part of his previous turn, can get his own personal bonus and a few Dwagons and Knights back to the Knob on his next turn.

Now, Charlie brought a lot of Archons, many more than were required to capture the Knob when it was more weakly defended. And the calculation was for how many Archons Charlie would need to take the Knob in one turn - not for how many he'd need to help the Alliance to take the Knob, or for how many he'd need to take it over the period of several turns. It still looks like the Knob is in deep boop - but I think how deep is quite uncertain.

[dragontape]

I dunno if anyone remembered this bit or not but I remember somewhere that Wanda set off some air defenses already in place...

So I think there's still a couple things GK can do as far as Air Defense goes.

Cause I remember she said she set off some air defenses and thats what brought the current air troops she has right now under her control.

...just thought id mention that bit

[DevilDan]

No, I think if she had any real predictamancy, the whole Jillian thing wouldn't have either occurred or hit her so hard.

Are you predicting what predictmancy is? We know next to nothing about it. It seems possible to mea that a general prophecy such as "Faq will fall" or a vision of its fall would not necessarily include a detailed account of how it would happen or all the turns prior to the occurrence, for example.

Yes, they can avoid engagements, but RCC's stacks without warlords would still be forced to attack them -- only on the next do the archons merge into RCC's turn. I'm thinking about siege archers and such.

Depends on whether Charlie can switch sides, then. Even if switching sides does not renew the number of moves, of course, Charlie doesn't need moves and he didn't use any that day anyway.

Hamster told Charlie how many Archons he'd need to capture the Knob ... a turn ago or so. That's before Wanda made a huge number of low-quality ground units. It's hard for me to tell - it might be before Wanda made a small number of high-quality air units, or before Hamster understood her high-quality air units. It's before Hamster's sword was made complete, with its leadership bonus (and ruthlessness). Wanda's almost certain to get the Arkenpliers within this Jetstone turn, although it's anyone's guess what they will mean to the balance of forces.

That all seems more-or-less correct to me.

This, however, strikes me as unfounded even if it is possible and even likely:

Now, Charlie brought a lot of Archons, many more than were required to capture the Knob when it was more weakly defended.

I also don't think that there was a stipulation of "one turn" even if that would seem to me as a given.

[Oslecamo]

Well, very interisting comic, both rules and fluff wise.

What we learned:
1-Units can be disarmed/dismounted.
2-Warlord weakest zombies are stronger than normal infantry weakest zombies.
3-Zerg tactics work on super combat units.
4-You can shift alliances during combat.
5-You cannot instantly read a contract during combat.


On the contract:

I think Charlie made a super complicated contract in purpose.

Ansom is now with his back against the wall. The uncroacked are circling him, and he has no plier to take them down easily this time.

So he acepts the contract whitout reading it all.

And then Charlie reveals some clause that basically means Ansom will wish he was croacked. His treasury will probably be drained to the lat schmuck, and the titants know what other horrors.

Indeed, if someone is gonna win this battle, it's Charlie.

Well, but we also have to see what happens when Wanda catches the pliers. Perhaps then not even the archons will be a match for her uncroacked
legions.

Hmm, uncroacked dwagons...drools...

[mroozee]

That's the impression I got; the stairs look more like a built-in accessway for friendly troops than like any of the siege units we've seen.

From the previous strip, you can tell the difference between the inside of the wall and the outside by observing the semi-circle of undead around Ansom.

[Prowl]

The dreaded End User License Alliance!

[Warren]

I also don't think that there was a stipulation of "one turn" even if that would seem to me as a given.

I'll admit, this was something I made up - but I did have a line of reasoning. As I see it, Charles was considering coming in to seize the Knob himself in order to get the bracer and possibly its wearer. This only made sense for Charlie to do if he could pull it off before the Alliance seized the Knob and thereby foreclosed on Charlie's opportunity. Hence my assumption that the calculation Hamster gave Charlie must be of the number of Archons that Charlie would need to seize the Knob before the Alliance could seize it, which I arbitrarily decided was one turn. YMMV.

Update While the forums were down I looked over the previous strips, and the calculations were indeed first whether 14 Archons would suffice to take the Knob before Stanley's next turn, and then how many Archons would be needed. So there was indeed a one-turn requirement, albeit not for quite the reasons I remembered/imagined. So Charlie plus the alliance and without the hurry is in a considerably stronger position than Charlie alone and in a hurry.

[DevilDan]

3-Zerg tactics work on super combat units.

Does that one encounter really qualify as Zerg tactics?

Wanda had enough self-control to follow Parson's orders to capture rather than croak. Then again, Wanda is a devotee of torture...

[Prowl]

I dunno if anyone remembered this bit or not but I remember somewhere that Wanda set off some air defenses already in place...

So I think there's still a couple things GK can do as far as Air Defense goes.

Cause I remember she said she set off some air defenses and thats what brought the current air troops she has right now under her control.

...just thought id mention that bit

She said she set off 'most' of the air defenses, which means that there are some left, probably not a whole lot, but more than nothing.

[SpacemanSpif]

2-Warlord weakest zombies are stronger than normal infantry weakest zombies.

While I think this is correct, this comic isn't proof of it, as uncroaked units get a huge boost for being in Wanda's stack.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0094.html

[kreszantas]

From what I gather the pliers were attracted to Wanda's staff (via a magnet or fate magic that she used before engaging) this a key element that I see is that the pliers are shown getting drawn towards the head of Wanda's staff. Her order to Webinar caused the rest of the action to unfold.

[Cybaster]

It's as Prince Thrakhath says in the bad ending of Wing Commander 3 if you have Blair beg for his life: "So even the Heart of the Tiger proves unworthy in the end."

Although if Ansom does give in to Charlie's demands to save his own skin, the Alliance he has might become so demoralized by Ansom's cowardice that they surrender wholesale to Gobwin Knob; Some of the allies in Ansom's camp were already discussing desertion the previous turn, namely the Sofa-king, so that act might be the final nail in the Alliance's coffin to cause a mass defection (it's wishful thinking at best, but it's always possible --- history, though, has proven that such a mass defection is definitely possible given the right nudge). In turn, this might just give Parson the firepower he needs to fight Charlie off --- although the lack of fliers in the Alliance probably won't have any effect on the Archons.

[Chewy]

Regarding the whole "when can Charlie act?" question:

If you'll recall the whole "detached air force" gambit, the plan was to terminate Charlie's contract with Jetstone, so that he could ally with Doombat's folk - and act on their term. It looks like allied units share a turn (which would make sense), and presumably in this case it's Jetstone's turn. The only question would be whether Charlie can act within this Jetstone turn (the one in which Ansom attacked, so it's obviously Jetstone's turn right now), or has to wait until the next one.

[

See this has to be no because otherwise its unbelievable abuseable game mechianic. I can just ally my friend he moves with me then cancel the alliance end turn the have him ally me and move again. Utterly broken mechanics in a TBS world. If you want to argue they don't have to move and can just engage thats implausible for a couple reasons. First they can't be on the same hex. In terms of basic TBS rules no two opposing factions can be on the same hex or they fight. In terms of comic rules this applies as well as two units in the same hex auto engages. Since no battle was initiated they are not on the same hex. They could be flying in an airspace hex, or adjacent airspace hex, but I doubt their in the city. So since the end turn rule of the comic and TBS is they have NO move points at end of turn http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0051.html and shouldn't be on the same hex they can't actually help Ansom NOW. If they do thats just breaking all kinds of TBS rules.

.
3-Zerg tactics work on super combat units.

actually you should have learned that when the bats swarmed the dragons during the fight with stanley. Zerg tactics work in any situation in real life military or game anyways so this shouldn't really need to be proven.

[kynalvarus]

Webinar didn't solo Ansom - the unipegataur got in a shot too, probably a more powerful one. Also, we may be underestimating the unipegataurs. All those air defenses went off, and only killed four units? Then they were probably all quite powerful units. Wanda spent a good deal of time animating them. They shouldn't be casually discounted.

We have no idea what archons cost, or how many Charlie has. It's possible that most or all of his forces are at GK right now. He may be able to take GK alone, but at what cost? He may not want to commit. I think he's bluffing Parson, and he's not interested in expending his Archons lightly. He really doesn't want to lose them in a way that leads to their being uncroaked and used against him.

The powers of the Arkentools are connected to their functions and symbolism. Hammers can crush, but they are also symbols of law (gavels.) Taming dwagons isn't too much of a stretch. The Arkendish is a communications tool. Pliers are used to grab, twist, and bend. Their symbolism is all control and manipulation. It's a good fit for Croakamancy.

I think that the 'pliers, in Wanda's hands, are going to lead to major upgrades to all the existing uncroaked in GK, and even more improvement for any new ones created using them.

[JazzManJim]

We have no idea what archons cost, or how many Charlie has. It's possible that most or all of his forces are at GK right now. He may be able to take GK alone, but at what cost? He may not want to commit. I think he's bluffing Parson, and he's not interested in expending his Archons lightly. He really doesn't want to lose them in a way that leads to their being uncroaked and used against him.

I wonder about the comms that Parson has with Jack. Could it have been enough that Jack has clouded Stanley's mind to have their stack head toward Charlie. If the bulk of Charlie's forces are at GK, then a serious force of flyers might well be enough to cause Charles enough consternation to call back a significant number of Archons.

Charlie's smart, but so is Parson. Charlie's smarts are for business. Parson's are for war. Could be that Charlie is outmatched a bit here.

[kreszantas]

See this has to be no because otherwise its unbelievable abuseable game mechianic. I can just ally my friend he moves with me then cancel the alliance end turn the have him ally me and move again. Utterly broken mechanics in a TBS world. If you want to argue they don't have to move and can just engage thats implausible for a couple reasons. First they can't be on the same hex. In terms of basic TBS rules no two opposing factions can be on the same hex or they fight. In terms of comic rules this applies as well as two units in the same hex auto engages. Since no battle was initiated they are not on the same hex. They could be flying in an airspace hex, or adjacent airspace hex, but I doubt their in the city. So since the end turn rule of the comic and TBS is they have NO move points at end of turn http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0051.html and shouldn't be on the same hex they can't actually help Ansom NOW. If they do thats just breaking all kinds of TBS rules.



actually you should have learned that when the bats swarmed the dragons during the fight with stanley. Zerg tactics work in any situation in real life military or game anyways so this shouldn't really need to be proven.

This is exactly why Charlie told Parson dont break anything of mine (meaning dont attack me and I wont attack you). Even with the PENDING CHANGE, I see Charlie NOT following Ansom's orders (Sofa King as example) and doing just what he wants within the confines of the new agreement meaning a) pliers, b) Parson & artificat intact.

This also brings up another HUGE missing point that, had Parson actually jumped ship to Charlie and not removed from the hex, Parson would be on Ansom's side midshift.. how about that one for a mind bender.

[Limos]

See this has to be no because otherwise its unbelievable abuseable game mechianic. I can just ally my friend he moves with me then cancel the alliance end turn the have him ally me and move again. Utterly broken mechanics in a TBS world. If you want to argue they don't have to move and can just engage thats implausible for a couple reasons. First they can't be on the same hex. In terms of basic TBS rules no two opposing factions can be on the same hex or they fight. In terms of comic rules this applies as well as two units in the same hex auto engages. Since no battle was initiated they are not on the same hex. They could be flying in an airspace hex, or adjacent airspace hex, but I doubt their in the city. So since the end turn rule of the comic and TBS is they have NO move points at end of turn http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0051.html and shouldn't be on the same hex they can't actually help Ansom NOW. If they do thats just breaking all kinds of TBS rules.



actually you should have learned that when the bats swarmed the dragons during the fight with stanley. Zerg tactics work in any situation in real life military or game anyways so this shouldn't really need to be proven.

We already know that health and movement stats reset at dawn, so we even if you can join and leave alliances at will that won't give you back you're health or move.

[VariaVespasa]

Close but not quite- if theyre in the same hex they have to fight UNLESS they have warlords with their stacks and chose not to. RCC has warlords in hex obviously, and it seems likely that the acrhons themselves qualify as warlords in some fashion. Certainly they have warlords or the equivalent with them or they couldnt have left Parsons fliers alone. QED.

The archons cannot move this turn, even if they ally with Jetstone, but they could chose to forgo thier non-engagement choice and immediately engage everything in Parsons airspace, ie- the undead flier stack, which would let Ansom get up, grab his carpet and escape or follow Wanda. But its not their turn, and iirc only the defender can move freely between the various city zones, so they cannot engage the tower/garrison/walls this turn. And, judging by whats going on now, Wanda is or will be on the ground picking up the pliers and thus not an elligible target by the time the archons can act, and she can just scuttle back inside when she sees the archons have become aggro.

Ansom is free to pursue her himself I guess, but alone and injured and unarmed I wouldnt give anything for his chances if he does. So fleeing is his best personal option.

This lets Charlie take Ansom to the cleaners with the new contract, including getting Parson and his artifact in the event of an RCC victory. It lets Ansom remain an active figure in the ongoing story, although not a happy one given that he's lost his pliers and failed to breach the walls this turn. It gets Parson the pliers, along with a possibly atuned Wanda, plus the return of Stanley to confound Charlies plans and remain in the game himself. Everybody wins, more or less. :)

[Angband]

In some TBS games when you accomplish some things, you get a one-time bonus to any units that you currently possess. The most recent one that comes to mind is Civilization: Revolutions... when you, for instance, complete building the "Leonardo's Workshop" Wonder, all your units are upgraded to the most modern version that you have researched to date.

I wonder if Attunement to the Arkenpliers might provide a similar one time bonus... just to throw out an example, "When a unit Attunes to the Arkenpliers, all currently-active undead that were created by the Attuned unit, become upgraded to maximum duration and power." Of course, the game designers who originally came up with the idea might not have anticipated a caster having control of a thousand popcorn undead at the time...

Similar to a lot of TBS games, what would normally be an appropriately powerful bonus can be turned into a game-breaking 'sploit under the right conditions...

[DevilDan]

Firstly, we don't know that the archons, who apparently didn't use any moves during that day, cannot expend moves once they switch sides.

Secondly, the author can get away with any number of plot shenanigans and simply claim that things work differently within a city hex. We've already seen exceptions of this sort cited.

Finally, I don't believe that Parson particularly cares about the pliers except in how they may affect the safety of GK. Yes, he knows that Stanley wants to get his grubby little hands on the arkenpliers, but he also knows that GK itself is a priority; he may also know exactly what happened to Stanley thanks to Maggie.

[K2]

using wenibar as a weapon was a wonderful idea, bet they all get his warlord bonus as well. I hope Charlie does not ruin every thing, either way Ansom as a force for himself is gone. He will either be Charlies slave or Wanda servant.

[DevilDan]

using wenibar as a weapon was a wonderful idea, bet they all get his warlord bonus as well. I hope Charlie does not ruin every thing, either way Ansom as a force for himself is gone. He will either be Charlies slave or Wanda servant.

And let's not forget that warlord bonuses stack, hence the use of three warlords for the dwagon donut "group A" force.

[K2]

And let's not forget that warlord bonuses stack, hence the use of three warlords for the dwagon donut "group A" force.

But do they stack with caster bonuses?
Also, does merely garbing an item grant an individual its onuses? If so, there are plenty of unde--excuss me, uncroaked infantry around where the pliers landed.

[Welf]

Parson is (probably) boobed.
Following assumption: the top of the wall is part of airspace.
If so, the archons can attack the uncroaked. As flying units against infantry they should have no big problems. They even don't have to spend their non-existing move for this. And if the wall is clear, the RCC troops can do the rest.
Parson can only survive if he can stop the enemy troops and delay the end for one turn. Then he can again make Wanda mass-uncroak enemy troops and hope that Stanley returns.