133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

[DevilDan]

But do they stack with caster bonuses?
Also, does merely garbing an item grant an individual its onuses? If so, there are plenty of unde--excuss me, uncroaked infantry around where the pliers landed.

Leadership bonuses and caster bonuses (dirtamancer-golem or croakamancer-uncroaked) could perhaps be considered as different categories and may also stack.

Following assumption: the top of the wall is part of airspace.
If so, the archons can attack the uncroaked. As flying units against infantry they should have no big problems. They even don't have to spend their non-existing move for this. And if the wall is clear, the RCC troops can do the rest.
Parson can only survive if he can stop the enemy troops and delay the end for one turn. Then he can again make Wanda mass-uncroak enemy troops and hope that Stanley returns.

I have no reason to suspect that any area is closed to attacks by fliers except for those that are roofed over or located underground.

I do fail to see how Stanley, despite his artifact and overlord bonuses, at the head of a half-dozen or so dwagons can turn this battle around, particularly with the large number of archons over GK. Parson knows more than we do, of course, but I doubt that his strategy hinges solely on Stanley's return.

[Chewy]

Firstly, we don't know that the archons, who apparently didn't use any moves during that day, cannot expend moves once they switch sides.

Secondly, the author can get away with any number of plot shenanigans and simply claim that things work differently within a city hex. We've already seen exceptions of this sort cited.

Firstly they did use move as they had to move to actually get there and secondly as I pointed out all units lose move once they end turn.

Yes they author can use plot armor to bulldoze through my arguments and I'm fine with that as long as its logical.

[Dragonath]

I wonder about the comms that Parson has with Jack. Could it have been enough that Jack has clouded Stanley's mind to have their stack head toward Charlie. If the bulk of Charlie's forces are at GK, then a serious force of flyers might well be enough to cause Charles enough consternation to call back a significant number of Archons.

Charlie's smart, but so is Parson. Charlie's smarts are for business. Parson's are for war. Could be that Charlie is outmatched a bit here.

Yep, as I predicted before it would not be unlikely for Stanley to dust off to Charlie and grab his Arkendish from a possible undefended mountain fortress Charlie is residing in. 6 veiled Dwagons with Stanley, Jack and a Knight are not that bad of a stack at all, and could probably take down an equal number of Archons and Charlie.

That would have Charlie in the boop :D

[lug0si]

Magic staff vs. Artifact 'pliers... I suppose it's possible, but the 'what have you done to it?' makes me feel like there is more at work than a simple weapon bind at work. Besides, Wanda using magic to 'trap' a weapon fits her better than her being a skilled martial artist (weapon binds are tricky, speaking from experience)...

i dont think that an artifact can be trapped by a spell, even when cast by a master, or influenced by a magic staff. holy owns magically usually.
i believe that the arkentools have a will of their own and want to be wielded by someone 'worthy' (Wanda in case of Arkenpliers) they will attune to immediately. so they led Ansom into this solo mission and failed him when confronted with Wanda (i kinda suspected this would happen).

[The Old Hack]

Beautiful, beautiful page. So many things happening, all the pieces moving into place for a big confrontation. I truly hope Wanda gets the pliers and attunes to them; it would seem one of the few possible events that could counterbalance Charlie's return to the Alliance with such a huge force of Archons.

And Ansom is humbled at last... maybe. This could potentially be a turning point for him if he has the self-honesty to see that his egomania and religious fanaticism has ultimately made him all but a copy of Stanley. Right now, his options are bad no matter what he does; he concedes to Charlie's demands and becomes his legal captive or refuses and most likely becomes GK's military captive. But no matter which of the two occurs, it becomes a test of character for him -- he can understand at last that he is as capable of mistakes as anyone not a noble, or reject this understanding and continue on denial.

Charlie? He continues to act the legal weasel. He may appear to hold all the good cards now, but I am personally entertaining a fond hope that he will get his fingers burnt in the end. Petty of me, but that's how I am.

[Oslecamo]

Does that one encounter really qualify as Zerg tactics?

Wanda had enough self-control to follow Parson's orders to capture rather than croak. Then again, Wanda is a devotee of torture...

Zerg tactics isn't just mindlessly attacking with superior numbers.

It's carefully but quickly attacking with several weak units in such a way to maximize their potential, so you end up defeating much bigger units before the enemy realizes what's going on. Much harder to do properly than it looks.

For example, sending your weak units in an indian line to die one by one against the big enemy unit is bad tactics, like when Ansom sent small stacks of elves to attack the three "stronger than normal" dwagons. If he had sent those stacks at the same time, they probably would have croacked the dwagons, but sending them in small groups one by one, the bigger dwagons easily dealt with them.

Sending one non uncroacked unit(Wanda) to atract the enemy 1-hit-kill-uncroacked attacks while your other uncroacked units surround it and pepper it with blows before it can attack again, that's zerg tactics.

[Aether]

Something to consider here: Stanley seems to be a decent Warlord in battle at least. Furthermore, he had 3 knights to lead his dragons.

Stanley had the Arkenhammer in the battle.. and yet he still lost so many dragons! While it looks like Transylvito only lost bats... maybe a warlord or two.

So what makes us think that Wanda's zerg-undead units are suddenly going to be strong enough just because she gets and attunes to the Pliers?


Also... I think the Pliers have to do with Fate magic. Whether this means that all Arkentools have a bit of Fate in them, I don't know... but it could be the Arkenpliers themselves are Fate-oriented Arkentools. Destroying uncroaked could be merely a side-effect... possibly because uncroaked no longer have a future/destiny or something...
...In any case, I think it's still up in the air in regards to whether or not Wanda can attune to the pliers, and if they will HELP uncroaked.

And besides, Stanley (or Sizemore?) mentioned that Charlie mastered the Arkendish... I think that means that even if you can attune to an Arkentool, you still need to practice in its use.


Also; can anybody tell if there's been a change in Parson since he got that sword? We thought he'd be a lot crueler or something after he picked up the sword... but he still seems the same... is it because some of us guessed right in that "ruthlessness" does not automatically mean cruelty? Hmmm...

[Oslecamo]

Something to consider here: Stanley seems to be a decent Warlord in battle at least. Furthermore, he had 3 knights to lead his dragons.

Stanley had the Arkenhammer in the battle.. and yet he still lost so many dragons! While it looks like Transylvito only lost bats... maybe a warlord or two.

So what makes us think that Wanda's zerg-undead units are suddenly going to be strong enough just because she gets and attunes to the Pliers?

Ansom pwns dwagons and warlords and zombie masses.

Wanda pwns Ansom. Whitout pliers. Now she has pliers. So she's even stronger, while Ansom isn't around anymore to give his fat leadership bonus to the coalition.

I think it's a perfectly valid logic.

Ruthleness doesn't mean cruelty. But it means the ability of sending your close friends to very dangerous situations.

[SteveD]

Awesome strip. Somehow this comic always manages to make its twists surprising; did anyone predict that Charlie would make a deal with Ansom against Parson?

Presumably Charlies previous offering involved an alliance by which he would receive the spoils of Gobwin Knob; the Mathmancy artefact. The only thing that stopped him taking it directly was the possibility of getting a hold of the Arkenpliers too; presumably that is the 'amendment' the Archon was refering too. You've lost the pliers, so if we help you we get them too.

It also reveals Ansom wasn't as rash as everyone had assumed; Charlie was his backup plan. But had Ansom died, the Alliance would have disbanded and the story would be over. Now its more likely the Archons will clear the wall, and Parson will fall back.

This leads us to three crucial plot questions; Will Wanda get the Pliers back to Parson without being Croaked? Will Stanley and the Foolmancer return in time to engage the Archons? How will the plot between Faq, Wanda, Jack and Jill be resolved?

[Robak]

i think it is most likely that Wanda will get the pliers and attune to them, but Charlies Archons (help the RCC) take the outer walls, leading to a retreat to the tower and a famous last stand next turn with Stanley, Wanda, dwagons and the power of the Arkentools.

[Lamech]

I do fail to see how Stanley, despite his artifact and overlord bonuses, at the head of a half-dozen or so dwagons can turn this battle around, particularly with the large number of archons over GK. Parson knows more than we do, of course, but I doubt that his strategy hinges solely on Stanley's return.

I see how Stanley could stop Charlie! Look way back in comic page 22 panels 4,5 and 6. We don't know how canceling works, so it might very well be the any effects produced by an Arkentool are removed when another attuned arkentool is in the same hex. And if the archons are arken-controlled, they will be quite worthless to the coalition; which could full well change the course of battle.

[SteveMB]

We already know that health and movement stats reset at dawn, so we even if you can join and leave alliances at will that won't give you back you're health or move.

Units heal at the start of their turn. That said, I think it's unlikely that shifting alliances can allow a unit to move twice in the same day (as opposed to shifting when during the next day it moves) -- that would just be too powerful.

I do fail to see how Stanley, despite his artifact and overlord bonuses, at the head of a half-dozen or so dwagons can turn this battle around, particularly with the large number of archons over GK. Parson knows more than we do, of course, but I doubt that his strategy hinges solely on Stanley's return.

Parson's strategy doesn't hinge on Stanley's return because as yet he has no way of knowing that Stanley is returning. He tried to get Jack to convince Stanley to come back, but as far as he could tell he wasn't getting through.

[docstrange]

Actually I had a bit of trouble with this one. The action is drawn so small that it's not exactly clear what is going on - what is Ansom talking about in the first panel, anyway? What have you done to WHAT? Folks are assuming it's the pliers - but I for one would have liked some sort of visual clue.

Next, the KO of Ansom from his mount, and the dropping pliers, are fantastic panels. I love the extreme perspective on Ansom's hand and also his elongated body when falling from the carpet. A good choice and wonderfully done.

But then I lose it again. I suppose having those stairs and parapets tells us the pliers fell on the Gobwin Knob side of the wall - but again, it's all drawn so small it's hard to tell. Only the blue specks in the distance tell us that Wanda is diving for the pliers.

And where is the red-glowing uncraked archon, anyway? She was right in the stack before- and there are so many wide shots that you'd think we would see her.

Great story development, I'm excited for more, but a confusing page IMO.

[SteveD]

Some blown-up shots of this strip would be very handy. Its quite difficult to see the detail in the first panel.

[dragontape]

One more little tidbit that I unearthed...
in page 58, there's diffrent levels of Dwagons. I thought it would just be an elemental thing but I think it means as far as attack power goes.

One other thing I noticed, i think outfits have something to do with a unit's power.

Maybe its just a minor thing but i'm sure Parson would be smart enough to figure out that every single +1 bonus counts.

In my opinion, I think Parson's bonus to units is alot stronger now because he has all the stuff that make him a perfect warlord. We still have no clue what ruthlessness does to a unit's stats or if Parson's leadership bonus is still the same.

So stack that on top of Stanley's bonus and his arkentool bonus that he gets as well and I think even 6 dwagons can take on 14 archons or more archons...

Hell...I think Parson would be effing badass if he got a flying mount and joined the Air Defense against charlie. sooo...Stanley+Parson+Wanda and possible 2 arkentools...I think charlies archons are toast...

[PePe QuiCoSE]

I see how Stanley could stop Charlie! Look way back in comic page 22 panels 4,5 and 6. We don't know how canceling works, so it might very well be the any effects produced by an Arkentool are removed when another attuned arkentool is in the same hex. And if the archons are arken-controlled, they will be quite worthless to the coalition; which could full well change the course of battle.

They don't need Stanley if Wanda attunes to the pliers. Still, good point!

[Godskook]

I see how Stanley could stop Charlie! Look way back in comic page 22 panels 4,5 and 6. We don't know how canceling works, so it might very well be the any effects produced by an Arkentool are removed when another attuned arkentool is in the same hex. And if the archons are arken-controlled, they will be quite worthless to the coalition; which could full well change the course of battle.

The only person there that mentions 'canceling' is Vinny, who is asking the question as if he doesn't understand and knows that 'canceling' is an assumption on his part. Ansom never uses that terminology, doesn't know how the arken-kin work and "...knows of no-one who can" unlock their secrets.

[teratorn]

The only person there that mentions 'canceling' is Vinny, who is asking the question as if he doesn't understand and knows that 'canceling' is an assumption on his part. Ansom never uses that terminology, doesn't know how the arken-kin work and "...knows of no-one who can" unlock their secrets.

We can discard any adverse effects on the archons, since they were going to fight Stanley until Charlie made Transylvito an offer they could not accept.

[SteveMB]

The only person there that mentions 'canceling' is Vinny, who is asking the question as if he doesn't understand and knows that 'canceling' is an assumption on his part. Ansom never uses that terminology, doesn't know how the arken-kin work and "...knows of no-one who can" unlock their secrets.

He may have simply meant that the artifact bonuses would cancel each other out when they finally cornered His Vermitude and fought him directly. If so, Ansom's reply would indicate that an attuned Arkentool gives a higher bonus (along with its other powers), which would seem reasonable.

[Godskook]

We can discard any adverse effects on the archons, since they were going to fight Stanley until Charlie made Transylvito an offer they could not accept.

While I personally agree, a theoretical canceling system could sadly still exist and simply be unknown to Charlie.

[Lamech]

While I personally agree, a theoretical canceling system could sadly still exist and simply be unknown to Charlie.

The adverse effects would have to be unknown to Vinny because he was the one envisioning archons stomping dwagons. Charlie never actually agreed to the plan...

And since I was using Vinny as my source, that kind of kills that theory. Teratorn is correct.

[MalikT]

Hi, first time post.
I have been reading erf from the beginning and I have a different opinion about the pliers. They are a tool of creation and I don't think they will be used for croakamancy, perhaps some powerful healing/resurrection spell.
Some games put resurrection under necromancy so it has some sense.

[DigoDragon]

'Charles-n-Charge' indeed.
It is good to be the Charlescomm.

[Shepard]

How deliciously ironic would it be if Ansom's deal with Charlie completely drained his kingdom's treasury and left his side squandered? He'd still have his title, for all that would mean...

It makes sense to me that the pliers would attune to Wanda, but what if the authors want to use this capture of them for another neat plot twist and cause her not to be attuned to them? In keeping with my theme of irony in this post, what if the pliers attune to Sizemore instead (especially in keeping with the healing/resurrection interpretation of their power)? He's self-described as being one of the few casters in Erfworld interested in exploring magics beyond his specialty, and it would be a very interesting twist, especially considering how Stanley treats him - at the very least Stanley would have to regard him as an equal on some level (though invariably he'd probably hate him just as he hates Charlie).

So yeah, while the pliers attuning to Wanda makes sense, and I think that's the most straight-forward eventuality, I think it'd be a great twist, especially in the face of all this speculation, if they actually attuned to Sizemore.

[Godskook]

He's self-described as being one of the few casters in Erfworld interested in exploring magics beyond his specialty,

Where does he say that other casters stay in their specialty? Here, he only mentions that he loves to study. Including the entire dialog between him and Wanda, we are only told the study habits of those two casters. Both are interested* in studying magic outside their specialty.

*For varying interpretations of 'interested'.

[SteveMB]

Where does he say that other casters stay in their specialty?

"He says he's one of the few people in Erfworld who studies magic outside his specialty"

[fendrin]

So much has been said since I read the thread... some points:

1) Charlie's contract doesn't have to be 'legally binding'. He makes them magically binding.
Caveat emptor.

2) Ansom is not the King of Jetstone. He does not have total control over the Jetstone treasury, forces, etc. How much control does he have? unknown. Another thought: he would be forced by duty to sacrifice himself if the alternative would lead to Jetstone's destruction. He may not be able to accept Charlie's contract...

3) All association between the 'pliers purpose being linked to croakamancy are equivalent to the 'hammers purpose being linked to making walnuts. It is one effect, and not nearly enough to go on. Besides, the Arkentools seem to have a utility theme rather than a branch of magic. What type of magic would the 'hammer be? Instead it seems to be combat oriented, and the 'dish is communication oriented. So what about the 'pliers? Pliers, particularly needle-nose, are tools of manipulation.

[DevilDan]

Zerg tactics isn't just mindlessly attacking with superior numbers.

It's carefully but quickly attacking with several weak units in such a way to maximize their potential, so you end up defeating much bigger units before the enemy realizes what's going on. Much harder to do properly than it looks.

...

Sending one non uncroacked unit(Wanda) to atract the enemy 1-hit-kill-uncroacked attacks while your other uncroacked units surround it and pepper it with blows before it can attack again, that's zerg tactics.

The label seems to cover a variety of different tactics. As there are no Zerg manuals or coda, I'd say that any tactic using more expendable and weaker units or any using a tank to deflect fire could be counted as a Zerg tactic.

Also; can anybody tell if there's been a change in Parson since he got that sword? We thought he'd be a lot crueler or something after he picked up the sword... but he still seems the same... is it because some of us guessed right in that "ruthlessness" does not automatically mean cruelty? Hmmm...

I never assumed that "ruthlessness" implied or suggested cruelty. That would be "sadism." Ruthlessness only suggests that you do what is necessary to achieve your goal.

This leads us to three crucial plot questions; Will Wanda get the Pliers back to Parson without being Croaked?

Why should Parson want them? We can surmise that he wants no part of combat and having them would just make him more of a target. Having Parson (and his mathamancy magic item) separate from the pliers at minimum is beneficial because it makes it necessary for Charlie to split his forces and attention between two targets.

I see how Stanley could stop Charlie! Look way back in comic page 22 panels 4,5 and 6. We don't know how canceling works, so it might very well be the any effects produced by an Arkentool are removed when another attuned arkentool is in the same hex. And if the archons are arken-controlled, they will be quite worthless to the coalition; which could full well change the course of battle.

I think that "cancelin'" is not an actual game mechanism, just a way for Vinnie to suggest that they shouldn't worry about the arkenhammer because their side has the arkenpliers.

Presumably, we've only seen two attuned arkentools. We don't know what the effects of attuned arkenpliers might be. We do know that having the arkenpliers in a hex won't reverse the taming of dwagons, but that's not particularly meaningful or well established. If the arkenhammer does interfere with the archons (and we still don't know what the connection between the dish and the archons is, if there is any at all), then it will be a surprise to Charlie and, I'm sure, to everyone else on Erf.

Parson's strategy doesn't hinge on Stanley's return because as yet he has no way of knowing that Stanley is returning. He tried to get Jack to convince Stanley to come back, but as far as he could tell he wasn't getting through.

In theory, Parson could have communicated with either Jack or Stanley before the end of GK's turn.

So much has been said since I read the thread... some points:

1) Charlie's contract doesn't have to be 'legally binding'. He makes them magically binding.
Caveat emptor.

2) Ansom is not the King of Jetstone. He does not have total control over the Jetstone treasury, forces, etc. How much control does he have? unknown. Another thought: he would be forced by duty to sacrifice himself if the alternative would lead to Jetstone's destruction. He may not be able to accept Charlie's contract...

3) All association between the 'pliers purpose being linked to croakamancy are equivalent to the 'hammers purpose being linked to making walnuts. It is one effect, and not nearly enough to go on. Besides, the Arkentools seem to have a utility theme rather than a branch of magic. What type of magic would the 'hammer be? Instead it seems to be combat oriented, and the 'dish is communication oriented. So what about the 'pliers? Pliers, particularly needle-nose, are tools of manipulation.

Or caveat signor, in this case.

Charlie would have little reason to ruin Jetstone, as far as we know. But he will charge whatever the market can bear: better to have a satisfied, if impoverished, customer than to eliminate him. It doesn't seem that Charlie would have any territorial designs on Jetstone, and Ansom cannot betray King Spacely either. But could Charlie come out of this with the pink slips of not one but two chief warlords? Abso-boopin'-lutely.

I've suggested before that the arkentools could have several different magical abilities associated with different mancies. Transforming birds to walnuts and vice versa could be a changeamancy effect, for example.

[SteveMB]

2) Ansom is not the King of Jetstone. He does not have total control over the Jetstone treasury, forces, etc. How much control does he have? unknown. Another thought: he would be forced by duty to sacrifice himself if the alternative would lead to Jetstone's destruction. He may not be able to accept Charlie's contract...

True. However, in this case, I don't see Charlie as having any reason to deliberately offer a contract that the other party can't accept -- if he didn't want to at least consider making a deal with Ansom, he could have just ignored his cry. So, my guess is that Charlie is seriously raising his price (perhaps explicitly demanding Parson, his gauntlet, and/or the Arkenpliers), but not to the point where Ansom would reject the deal out of hand or would be unable to make the deal because King Slately hasn't given him enough latitude.

I never assumed that "ruthlessness" implied or suggested cruelty. That would be "sadism." Ruthlessness only suggests that you do what is necessary to achieve your goal.

As a couple people suggested, it probably means being more hard-nosed about risking people you know and like personally. It's easy to be ruthless toward enemies you know only as a blip on a display ("croak, not capture"), not so much to be ruthless with your own friends.

[DevilDan]

As a couple people suggested, it probably means being more hard-nosed about risking people you know and like personally. It's easy to be ruthless toward enemies you know only as a blip on a display ("croak, not capture"), not so much to be ruthless with your own friends.

He has previously expressed misgivings about ordering people to their deaths; "hopefully" he is not letting that interfere with his actions today. The fact that he can revel in his discovery of "hosed" suggests that he is not overwhelmed by guilt, at any event.