133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

[MalikT]

what if the pliers attune to Sizemore instead

I think they will attune to Parson, it is possible that Parson is attuned to all Arkentools becouse they seem to be from our world.

Pliers, particularly needle-nose, are tools of manipulation.

I meant tools of creation becouse they were used by the titans to create the world.

[Lamech]

the Archons can only engage units that enter Gobwin Knob's airspace.

This clears a lot up... hmm... so if Wanda gets to the Arkenpliers and lands she will be safe. In fact she'll probably be the best melee unit in the field of play. Now I wonder if Ansom will be able to get to saftey...

[DragoonKain]

Actually, I think Wanda's golden now. She's behind the walls now, which I'm guessing means she's in the courtyard rather than the airspace. The archons can't go after her now, but they can still defend Ansom from the flying Uncroaked if he agrees to their terms.

But the pliers are as good as GK's.

[mackamus]

Close but not quite- if theyre in the same hex they have to fight UNLESS they have warlords with their stacks and chose not to. RCC has warlords in hex obviously, and it seems likely that the acrhons themselves qualify as warlords in some fashion. Certainly they have warlords or the equivalent with them or they couldnt have left Parsons fliers alone.

I've been thinking about this. Could the Arkendish serve as a means of making all troops under Charlescomm control effectively Warlords, maybe not quite in battle terms but in leadership? The dish would allow Charlie to project his own warlord status onto the units in GK, and thus they wouldn't have to engage with enemies stacks as per unled units?

[Godskook]

Close but not quite- if theyre in the same hex they have to fight UNLESS they have warlords with their stacks and chose not to. RCC has warlords in hex obviously, and it seems likely that the acrhons themselves qualify as warlords in some fashion. Certainly they have warlords or the equivalent with them or they couldnt have left Parsons fliers alone. QED.

"In hex" does not qualify as "leading". The warlords must necessarily be in the same stack to have leadership control. Your point on the Archons is not negated by this fact.

Of course, allied units don't have that problem.

[dr pepper]

Ack, i was going to post last night, but the backup kicked in. One of these days i'm going to get onto the first page of an update comment.

Anyway, the previous page was awsome, but combined with this one, the Wanda vs Ansom encounter is awsome squared!

[DevilDan]

I've been thinking about this. Could the Arkendish serve as a means of making all troops under Charlescomm control effectively Warlords, maybe not quite in battle terms but in leadership? The dish would allow Charlie to project his own warlord status onto the units in GK, and thus they wouldn't have to engage with enemies stacks as per unled units?

These possibilities have been raised before, but we know little to nothing about archons. We're pretty sure that they're not human, but we don't know whether their attacks are a type of magic or whether they can or cannot be casters.

I assume that there can be "warlord" versions of any sentient unit.

[dr pepper]

It seems clear to me that Wanda immobilized the pliers. It was risky, but she only needed to do it for one melee round, just long enough for Webinar to get his shot.

[fractal]

I just noticed that Wanda instructed Dora and Webinar to "Land, and engage." If they can get there before Ansom finishes his agreement, then the Archons probably can't kill them (although the Archons could carry Ansom to safety).

[Sieggy]

When Stanley returns, remember, he has a master foolamancer with him that the RCC may or may not know about. And that up to this point, no indication was given (as of last turn, at the feast) that the fate or disposition of Jillian's aerial assault group was known, other than there was one hell of a blowup at the tower about the same time they left . . . If Jillian or Vinnie hasn't reported, if all they know is that Stanley is still alive, his numbers and capabilities are unknown.

If Parson thinkagrams Jack again, they can coordinate a strategy; I can see diversions galore from Jack . . . or something simple, powerful, and subtle.The question is whether or not Stanley is going to be cooperative.

Consider this, though, all the RCC combat troops are forward at the wall right now. All of the RCC siege train is stacked up on the road leading in. It is unlikely the units hauling / toting / pushing the train troops will have more than personal weapons for defense, with crappy to-hits and damage, being teamsters, carters, cloth golems, etc.

A flight of dwagons blasting their way along the road could easily wipe out all of Ansom's siege with minimal damage. Any forces that Ansom or Charlie would deploy to deal with him would be that much less on GK.

Keep in mind that all the troops in the world aren't going to do the RCC any good outside the walls, and siege is how you get through them. Destroy the siege towers, and the assault fails. At this point they are relatively unguarded and vulnerable. Destroy the siege train and that does it, battle over to all intents and purposes. What transpires inside the walls is still important, but it makes it a purely magical contest then, not based on massed troops and such. Which would pare the story down to it's crucial elements . . .

[DevilDan]

Sieggy: Are you suggesting that cloth golems aren't strong offensive units? I would count them as heavies.

[Godskook]

Sieggy: Are you suggesting that cloth golems aren't strong offensive units? I would count them as heavies.

On par with spidews, apparently.

[Sieggy]

Sieggy: Are you suggesting that cloth golems aren't strong offensive units? I would count them as heavies.

Sure, but they have no range capability. As Ansom has just shown, airborne forces are only subject to arrow fire, and I would assume that RCC would have all combat troops up assisting the assault. After all, the GK forces are all bottled up inside the walls, right? Why keep troops back when (especially archers who can put plunging fire on the uncroaked on the walls) they are needed in the battle which has been joined.

Without the ability to engage airborne forces, the siege train is a prone and motionless target. And a target which has been forgotten in the fog of war . . . maybe. But also recall, destroying the siege was Parson's opening gambit, which was devastatingly successful, to judge from Ansom's reaction and Vinnie's analysis. Stanley didn't like it at first, but definitely approved of the outcome.

In fact, it was the loss of these siege units that bought Parson the time to do what he's doing. Had the RCC siege units deployed the turn before, Parson would have been booped. But the destruction of the closest siege bought GK a turn. Destruction of the rest would win the battle, as RCC would have no way through the walls. Charlie, OTOH, remains an issue.

[fendrin]

Sure, but they have no range capability.

Don't forget the boulders they throw as powerfully as a siege engine.

[selgnij]

About the Archons being able to Move this turn.

We know that units need Move to switch hexes, but GK is all one hex, so they should be able to move around that. The only question is if switching zones takes move, and Parson's klog suggest that it does not. Although its never been stated clearly if you can switch zones off-turn, its never been said you couldn't either.

About the possible hopelessness of the situation if Charlie rejoins the RCC.

If he does join, its going to be bad news for the units on the walls. I can't see the weak undead holding out against the archons and the siege forces at the same time. So there goes the outer walls. How many will make it back to the garrison, who knows? Its not a lost cause just yet though, remember that the undead are weak, but there are an aweful lot of them. If things go down into the dungeon, they are going to have a lot of bonuses stacked on them as well. (I know that a lot may get taken out on the walls, but we haven't seen uncroaked marbits there yet.)

1) Parson's citywide bonus. (At least +2, possibly more since he received his sword)

2) Parson's direct bonus. Unknown.

3) Stack bonuses to any troops being led by the uncroaked warlords. By my count GK has 4 just now, though at least one, and more likely 2, are likely to be croaked by the archons.

4) If Wanda makes it back, any she leads gain her bonus as well.

5) If Wanda makes it back, she'll likely have the pliers, artifact bonus.

6) Tunnel fighting bonuses for uncroaked marbits. (Based on assumtion that marbits got a bonus and they were uncroacked.)

Toss all those bonuses on and the uncroaked arn't likely to be weak units anymore. And the archons do not seem like units that would do well in enclosed areas like a dungeon.

If GK holds out for this turn, its possible that Stanley can return and get into GK via veil. If that happens, add another (capable) warlord to the mix, and another artifact bonus.

[SteveMB]

About the Archons being able to Move this turn.

We know that units need Move to switch hexes, but GK is all one hex, so they should be able to move around that. The only question is if switching zones takes move, and Parson's klog suggest that it does not. Although its never been stated clearly if you can switch zones off-turn, its never been said you couldn't either.

We definitely know that GK units can move between zones without spending move.

As for non-GK units, they need to control one of the outer zones (outer walls, airspace, tunnels) to attack the garrison. The tunnels are sealed, Charlie controls GK airspace (the fact that Parson talked to Charlie about Wanda's mission implies that he doesn't think their uncroaked air units can really challenge that even with Wanda's Croakamancer bonus), and the Coalition is working on the outer walls.

[DevilDan]

(the fact that Parson talked to Charlie about Wanda's mission implies that he doesn't think their uncroaked air units can really challenge that even with Wanda's Croakamancer bonus)

That's fairly clear. And it shouldn't surprise us if we assume that Charlie has enough archons to take on all of GK.

As an aside, I wonder whether Wanda had enough juice last turn to give Webinar and Dora the deluxed uncroaking treatment. Yes, they were initially raised with everyone else, but perhaps Wanda upgraded them afterward.

[Prowl]

And let's not forget that warlord bonuses stack, hence the use of three warlords for the dwagon donut "group A" force.

I don't believe that is the case. I believe the use of three warlords in the group A force was done because they are the strongest units and would hit the hardest, as well as guaranteeing the ability to retreat.

[Godskook]

I don't believe that is the case. I believe the use of three warlords in the group A force was done because they are the strongest units and would hit the hardest, as well as guaranteeing the ability to retreat.

Well, we know for sure that Warlord bonuses stack with the chief warlord hex bonus.

Also, I'm betting that a single dwagon is more powerful than a typical single warlord. Before I get corrected, no warlord has ever hit a full-health dwagon only once on his/her own and croaked it, with the only possible exception being Ansom*. Jillian always needed at least one gwiffon bite. On the other side, a red dwagon dismounted Jillian, ate her gwiffon mount, and captured her all in one pass.

*I consider Ansom the single most powerful RCC warlord. That he could do it while wielding pliers isn't much concern. Of course, the way that battle was shown, we can't assert that the purple dwagon didn't get hit by something else first.

[Quimper]

A couple of things i have been asking for answers to myself:

1) The arkenhammer tames dragons. Does this mean it spawns dragons regulairly or does it mean you have to encounter dragons and then it tames them (also, hammer-levitation for the first time)? If you need to find dragons, can Stanley find some in the mountains on his way back to replenish forces (albeit lev 1)? Where did he find the original dragons? If the hammer spawns dragons magically every X turn or so, does this mean the arkendish spawns archons? What does the pliers spawn?

2) Gobwin Knob produces units. The bigger the unit, the more turns before it pops. Since its taken around 3-4 turns without popping now, can we expect a huge unit to pop the next turn?

Other stuff
Jillian had two magic items. Hat and sword?

Does these guys/girl remind you of Wanda, and possibly some other characters in the series)?

Wandas other schools of magic (unless they are bought items): Findamancy&Lookamancy, Thinkamancy (evidence 2), Predictamancy (if this is Wanda).
Fate seems to be a central plot point. Thinkamancy, Croakamancy and Predictamancy (Wandas primary magic?) belongs to fate.

Have Jillian Wanda been following a prophecy from FAQ and let Stanley kill king Banhammer just to await fate. Evidence of conspiracy... And Wandas manipulative ways to influence Stanley possibly for hers and Jillians mutual agenda/future. Though in the end it seems Jillian iand Wanda is having a falling out.. 1 2 3 4 (5) 6 7 8 9 10 (turn of events for Wanda) 11 12

Just to get some more discussion going. ;)

[Kreistor]

Okay, let's talk about the Archons first. In 93, Ansom orders Jillian to break alliance and ally with Transylvito. This puts her "turn" before Stanley's, which means Ansom's turn is after. What he does not do is order her to break alliance again and re-ally with Ansom to get a second turn. That means units get one turn, regardless of alliance changes. The archons, whom we believe to have ended turn (presumes Charlie didn't lie about that), have no move and can not attack. This means that they cannot enter the Courtyard space. (Airspace ending on the ground is highly unlikely. This would allow them to fly freely at ground level within range of melee attacks from ground units. Airspace needs to end well above the ground.

In frame 5, it is clear the Pliers fell past the outer walls (ie. the edge of the caldera). Further, in the last frame, Wanda is shown flying straight away from Ansom and the Archons, seemingly straight down. What this means is she is diving fast for the Pliers. Why? If the Pliers were on the ground, the Archons can't touch them with no attack left. Simple. The Pliers are still in the air and falling as of the end of 133. The Archons could still fly fast for it and grab it, potentially faster than Wanda's speed, since they fly by direct flight. An unanswerable question at the moment, but if Wanda felt there was no threat to the Pliers, she would ignore them. Ansom is done as a flier, so only Charlie's forces could grab them.

Now, there is something else we can see in the strip. The Archons are in fact not at all concerned with the Pliers. Now, Ansom says in 119 that he thought Charlie chomped pretty hard on the idea of getting the Pliers, but that conversation in 105 doesn't read that way. Charlie seems far more interested in Parson's claims of what he can achieve. He doesn't mention the Pliers at all, only Parson does. We do know from 90 that Parson has intrigued Charlie and that Charlie does not forsee Parson's death, bu tthis was before Parson's In Your Face with Ansom, where he enraged the Prince and Ansom is now taking it very personally (118). What we do know is that Charlie wants the Mathemancy artefact and hopefully Parson, and Charlie thinks that he can ensure Parson's survival (105.7)..

There is one other thing we know about Charlie. He does not want to lose rep (90.7). So Charlie is against overt backstabbing. He is in for the subtle art of manipulation. But he wants Parson, a smart warlord. That means he is not against violence.

So, let's break this down. What do we know about the situation from Charlie's perspective?

1. He is more interested in a better alliance deal with Ansom than the Pliers.
2. He is not overtly aggressive.
3. He wants smart warlords.
4. Ansom may have gotten a bug in his teeth and wants Parson's corpse.

All this says that Charlie's deal comes down to this: he can only protect Ansom while the siege moves into the square Ansom had cleared. (He clearly has the choice to defend against attacking units, since he chose not to attack Wanda's force.) So, he is offering to prevent Ansom being captured. He will not be asking for the Pliers, which Ansom no longer possesses. He will be asking for the new, untested Mathemancy device. He will also be asking for Parson.

Charlie is less of an enigma than he is played out to be. He, unlike the other participants in the conflict against Stanley, is not doing this for revenge or hatred. (He could have needed the war fast by moving on the garrison. Even with no chance of success, he still would do massive damage. Clearly, damaging Stanley isn't in his best interest.) Since he wants Parson, then he is almost certainly interested in conquest. So why not backstab the attackers by attacking the homelands of the army? Becuase that makes him next on the list for the Alliance to smash. He might gain a little quick territory, but he'd be squashed next. It wrecks his rep, which is important to him. Charlie thinks long term, and hedges his bets. He now sees something useful coming out of the fall of GK -- Parson in Charlescomm. Previously, the best he likely foresaw was two massive armies smashing each other, weakening themselves, sp that Charlescomm can expand after the Alliance breaks up. But a powerful, out of box thinker warlord might gain him far more than just a little land. Parson can play the intrigue game, too, which works with Charlescomm strategy.

Charles is, like all the others, out to win this game. He can't hide that. Ansom's victory raises his stature, and hands him initiative in the general war to win the world. Charles' contract has to ensure that he comes out of this with a powerful advantage, but it also must be something Ansom will agree to. he wouldn't give up the Pliers, so Charles wouldn't ask for them. He would give up the mathemancy artefact that he knows little or nothing about. So, what this comes down to is: can Ansom suck up his pride enough to allow Parson to live later in exchange for saving his own life now? The answer has to be "yes", but we will learn much about Ansom in how he comes to that decision. What else is there that Charles could possibly be interested in? Sure, cash, but Charles does not strike me as someone that would view cash as more powerful than an intriguing person like Parson. Yes, Charles would ask for cash, but only as a distraction to hide his real intention of gaining Parson. The Warlord you know is worth far more than the one you have yet to pop.

[Godskook]

Fate seems to be a central plot point. Thinkamancy, Croakamancy and Predictamancy (Wandas primary magic?) belongs to fate.

Unless there are unexplained mechanics, Wanda's primary magic is Croakamancy, and always has been. So says one of Parson's food wrappers.

Charlie is less of an enigma than he is played out to be.

Says the guy who took 5-8 monsters of paragraphs to describe him when most characters in this show wouldn't take more than 2 for the same level of understanding.

[ralphmerridew]

I see how Stanley could stop Charlie! Look way back in comic page 22 panels 4,5 and 6. We don't know how canceling works, so it might very well be the any effects produced by an Arkentool are removed when another attuned arkentool is in the same hex. And if the archons are arken-controlled, they will be quite worthless to the coalition; which could full well change the course of battle.

Imagine a rule like "When a unit has an attuned arkentool, that unit and all allied units have a 2x bonus to all stats." If both sides have that bonus, it's the same as if neither side had the bonus. (One side might do double damage, but the other side has double the HP.) Vinny might have been expecting a rule like that.

[VariaVespasa]

I've been thinking about this. Could the Arkendish serve as a means of making all troops under Charlescomm control effectively Warlords, maybe not quite in battle terms but in leadership? The dish would allow Charlie to project his own warlord status onto the units in GK, and thus they wouldn't have to engage with enemies stacks as per unled units?

Its certainly possible, although we have no evidence one way or the other. And it would certainly be in keeping with the arkendishes apparent theme. It might explain why he's so thinkagram-happy with his archons too- its the info feed he needs to be able to decide what commands to give them. Quite apart from just loving information in general, of course.

[DevilDan]

Now, there is something else we can see in the strip. The Archons are in fact not at all concerned with the Pliers. Now, Ansom says in 119 that he thought Charlie chomped pretty hard on the idea of getting the Pliers, but that conversation in 105 doesn't read that way. Charlie seems far more interested in Parson's claims of what he can achieve. He doesn't mention the Pliers at all, only Parson does.

This surprised me as well, but I trust Parson's judgment on the matter. He would not make careless or unfounded assumptions, particularly when it comes to an enigma like Charlie.

(He could have needed the war fast by moving on the garrison. Even with no chance of success, he still would do massive damage. Clearly, damaging Stanley isn't in his best interest.) Since he wants Parson, then he is almost certainly interested in conquest.

Of course Charlie isn't averse to violence. If he were, he'd be a poor mercenary. But he is a mercenary, and that is why he didn't just move on the garrison for free when he anticipated doing so more cheaply after each side had been weakened (and with the added potential profit of an arkentool). Why attack that day for free when he can be paid, and likely quite handsomely, to do so the next day?

I would not assume that Charlie is interested in traditional conquests. Anyone on Erf would want Parson, and he could hire him out for a tidy profit. Parties involved in any battle would find themselves bidding against each other just to consult Parson for a few minutes.

Erf is a game-like world. But we don't know what Charlie's game is.

[VariaVespasa]

I don't believe that is the case. I believe the use of three warlords in the group A force was done because they are the strongest units and would hit the hardest, as well as guaranteeing the ability to retreat.

They used the warlords to enable selective attacks and the ability to retreat. Being decaying units, they hadnt had time to achieve more than middling levels, especially being on the losing end of a war, and thus arent huge combat units by themselves. Decent units, but not huge.

selgniJ- GK only has 2 uncroaked warlords left now. They started with 5, and lost 3 over the lake. Plus 3 casters and Parson who can all act as commanders if they wish to.

[ralphmerridew]

Charlie's giving me a Ben from Lost vibe right now.
I.e. No matter how bad things may look for him at any given point, HE GETS WHAT HE WANTS. Always.

But how bad do things look for Charlie at this point? So far, he's lost one archon. His territory is under no particular threat. At any time, he can declare this a missed opportunity and pull out. If things go well for him (RCC and GK nearly wipe each other out), he will profit greatly.

[selgnij]

selgniJ- GK only has 2 uncroaked warlords left now. They started with 5, and lost 3 over the lake. Plus 3 casters and Parson who can all act as commanders if they wish to.

It depends on if Weby and Dora maintain warlord status. We know warlords can be uncroaked and retain warlord status, but we don't know if the "uncroak all" spell leaves them as warlords or basic infantry.

Someone up above mentioned the archons not being able to go to the courtyard, as far as we know there isn't anything stopping them from doing so, they may be out of Move, but moving around the city doesn't require it apparently.

[Godskook]

Someone up above mentioned the archons not being able to go to the courtyard, as far as we know there isn't anything stopping them from doing so, they may be out of Move, but moving around the city doesn't require it apparently.

The Author's user name is PClips. He has explicitly stated in another thread that the Archons cannot engage any unit until Charlie's turn, except those in GK's airspace.

[grumbleboom]

One assumption people are making in this is that GK's chances against Charlie have stayed exactly the same as when Parson informed Charlie of the number of units he would need to take the Garrison. As far as I've seen, Charlie hasn't gotten updated numbers for how many archons he would need.

Things that have changed since Parson told Charlie how many units were required to take GK.

1. Parson got his sword completed
2. GK increased its ground forces substantially
3. GK's air defenses have probably reloaded (new turn after all, though this can't be guaranteed)

Charlie is working with outdated intel and my bet is that it will bite him.