133 The Battle For Gobwin Knob, Page 120

[DevilDan]

The Author's user name is PClips. He has explicitly stated in another thread that the Archons cannot engage any unit until Charlie's turn, except those in GK's airspace.

You can find the these comments here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99077#5

Things that have changed since Parson told Charlie how many units were required to take GK.

1. Parson got his sword completed
2. GK increased its ground forces substantially
3. GK's air defenses have probably reloaded (new turn after all, though this can't be guaranteed)

Charlie is working with outdated intel and my bet is that it will bite him.

I somehow suspect that Charlie is not going to make that sort of assumption, and his archons are giving him front row seats to much of the action. He had other archons there when the AA defenses were first employed, too.

[Godskook]

3. GK's air defenses have probably reloaded (new turn after all, though this can't be guaranteed)

I highly doubt that GK's air defenses reload every turn(or day). Main reason being that since Jillian flew over during RCC's turn, there'd be no obvious reason not to shoot at them if they would all immediately reload in the morning(This was before Parson became aware of sides involved in this that have earlier turns than him). Parson's order's, combined with his complaining that Wanda "blew their wad early" lends itself to the conclusion that the air defenses take time to reload, in one way or another.

[Lamech]

One assumption people are making in this is that GK's chances against Charlie have stayed exactly the same as when Parson informed Charlie of the number of units he would need to take the Garrison. As far as I've seen, Charlie hasn't gotten updated numbers for how many archons he would need.

Things that have changed since Parson told Charlie how many units were required to take GK.

1. Parson got his sword completed
2. GK increased its ground forces substantially
3. GK's air defenses have probably reloaded (new turn after all, though this can't be guaranteed)

Charlie is working with outdated intel and my bet is that it will bite him.

Charlie probably doesn't know about one as he probably doesn't know Parson is popping magic items. He DOES know about number two, he can see those undecayed undead swarms swarming, on the walls; they are likely a new addition. Three the air defense probably don't reload, simply because if that was the case GK would be almost invincable from the air, of course strongest position in the world, having a uber-caster or two, and the magic kingdom on call... maybe. Regardless Charlie will ask for a recalculation before attacking Parson, if he gets a no-go result he will not attack. At which point either Stanley, the casters or archers could probably force the Archons out of GK. (Or into battle with the garrison but thats would be a no-go.)

Edit @/\ : Good point. They could reload slowly. One doom shot a day or some such...

[DevilDan]

I don't think that even if the entire defenses reloaded each turn that would make GK impervious to air attacks. After all, blowing out most of their AA in one shot only took down four units.

We do not know whether the AA defenses reload automatically, but perhaps some sort of casting or work is needed.

[grumbleboom]

Oh, I agree that Charlie has a front row seat to the action, and he can see the uncroaked units and all that, I'm just saying that the situation has drastically changed and he would be well served to use another couple calculations prior to action if Parson accepts contact with him.

As for the air defenses and reloading or whatever, I really don't see why they wouldn't reload at the beginning of a side's turn. Would it be "game breaking?" No, probably not and it would be similar in mechanic to breaking through walls that can be repaired. I say without reloading air defenses on cities, air units become vastly unbalanced.

As is, if we assume that they do NOT reload, Parson still has the 32 archer class infantry listed on PK#7 in addition to any marbit archers he could have animated. Long story short, his anti-air is not as bad as we all assume it is.

Now we have no evidence of any of this, but I generally try to use my posts in a more hypothetical way to stimulate discussion of possibilities. :)

[DevilDan]

As for the air defenses and reloading or whatever, I really don't see why they wouldn't reload at the beginning of a side's turn. Would it be "game breaking?" No, probably not and it would be similar in mechanic to breaking through walls that can be repaired. I say without reloading air defenses on cities, air units become vastly unbalanced.

We don't know. A caster is apparently required; but we don't even know the nature of the defenses. If a mechanism is involved, I think that it would be the first machine (discounting simple machines) we've seen, I believe. Of course, there's still the portals the Magic Kingdom and the couple of magic items we've seen...

[vrellum]

Don't forget the luckamancy charms. I suspect they should amount to a fair bonus as well.

[DarkCloud]

<law student>
Well, no, this is more like a service contract, i.e. I do this for you in exchange for this kind of payment. A license agreement, on the other hand, typically grants the use of intellectual property subject to certain conditions.
</law student>

And I'm reasonably confident that Charlie knows how to write a legally binding contract... whether its magically binding or not might be something to consider. And the fun part would come if he agrees to give away the pliers, which aren't in his possession any more to be able to give away, and what happens if he can't pay up to Charlie.

But clicking "I accept" binds the acceptee to all the terms of the deal regardless if its a Service contract or if it falls under the UCC for sales of goods. There would be no battle of the forms and could be no dispute in that case; Correct?

[Sieggy]

I really feel sorry for Ansom at the moment, he is truly in about as bad a situation as they come. He can't take the time to 'carefully read' the contract, as he has a flight of uncroaked descending on him, as well as being surrounded by a horde of uncroaked against whom, I suppose, he could use his fists at this point. He just got beat up by a girl in hot fetish leather, his former best friend (?), and some really big titted flying critter that packed a hell of a kick, lost his artifact, and now he's alone on top of a wall watching his uncroaked best friend come for him while his twinkie drifts on the breeze . . . .

He HAS to know that Charlie is going to flat stick it to him , but he can't take the time to find out how . . . until it's WAY too late . . . I just hope the agreement included something to the effect of having to work weekends as his cabana boy or something like that.

I can't see Ansom being able to complete his transaction before Wanda retrieves the pliers. She has already initiated action, and is in hot pursuit even as Ansom agonizes . . . And the Archons primary concern will be extracting Ansom, not chasing Wanda.

Bear in mind that next CR, Webinar, Dora, the unipegataurs, and Jaclyn will be there to capture Ansom. If the agreement is struck, that automatically initiates hostilities, as the uncroaked will attack the Archons if they're interfering with them. And you have to know that 'Rescue' was on the top of the 'Services Rendered' list.

Now, does an attack by GK forces on Charlies forces trying to take Ansom make it a melee? Can all Archons engage, or just the ones mixing it up with the uncroaked trying to go through them? And does a service contract cover him from the instant of acceptance, or does that begin the start of next round? Rescue is vital if only that Dead Men Pay No Bills, and estate claims take forever . . . But they know that Ansom won't be killed, too.

I really don't like the fact that the uncroaked Jaclyn has disappeared, it says that something tricky is up . . .

BTW, I really like the rate at which the updates are coming! Both here and OOTS, too.

[DevilDan]

The archons can attack any unit they want so long as that unit is where they're located, which is GK's airspace.

[Kreistor]

The air defences might have been one shots, which will never reload. What we saw was a lot of explosions, not units firing arrows and so on. I think it is very unlikely that any of those defences will recover. GK's air defences ould normally be the mobile dwagons. This type of defence makes Wanda's decision to fire them off even more dramatic. They're used up, and Stanley is going to be very mad she blew all that money, until he learns that had she not, he would have faced overwhelming odds in the gap, instead of just poor odds.

[SteveMB]

The air defences might have been one shots, which will never reload. What we saw was a lot of explosions, not units firing arrows and so on. I think it is very unlikely that any of those defences will recover. GK's air defences ould normally be the mobile dwagons. This type of defence makes Wanda's decision to fire them off even more dramatic. They're used up, and Stanley is going to be very mad she blew all that money, until he learns that had she not, he would have faced overwhelming odds in the gap, instead of just poor odds.

I dunno about "never", but I wouldn't be surprised if reloading them takes either several turns (like popping a powerful unit) and mucho shmuckero. If we see a situation where it would be really helpful to be able to do that again, and they don't, I suppose that will implicitly answer the question.

[Lamech]

I don't think that even if the entire defenses reloaded each turn that would make GK impervious to air attacks. After all, blowing out most of their AA in one shot only took down four units.

Erm... it croaked more than that. 3 unipegituars, one archon and a bunch of peeps and gwiffions. The forces went from this down to four gwiffions, two archons, one Jillian and fourish orlies... thats a bit more than four units croaked

[the_tick_rules]

I'm guessing besides a butt load of cash Charlie wants Parson. Maybe the pliers to boot.

[SteveMB]

He HAS to know that Charlie is going to flat stick it to him , but he can't take the time to find out how . . . until it's WAY too late . . .

Another entertaining possibility that occurs to me -- he might be giving up stuff that some of his allies expected to collect as part of their spoils. They'll just love that....

[One Skunk Todd]

Where is Ansom? Panel 4 makes it looks like he landed on top of the wall while the pliers keep falling in Panel 5. But in Panel 7 he seems to be laying on the ground inside the wall, next to the pliers.

A couple of things i have been asking for answers to myself:

<snip>

Does these guys/girl remind you of Wanda, and possibly some other characters in the series)?

</snip>

Off the top of my head, they look like Vinnie, Dora, Webinar and Sizemore.

[fendrin]

Where is Ansom? Panel 4 makes it looks like he landed on top of the wall while the pliers keep falling in Panel 5. But in Panel 7 he seems to be laying on the ground inside the wall, next to the pliers

He is on top of the wall. What you are seeing in Panel 7 as the 'pliers is the Archon with the agreement. Her glow is hard to see against the light colored surface, but it is there.

[teratorn]

Where is Ansom? Panel 4 makes it looks like he landed on top of the wall while the pliers keep falling in Panel 5. But in Panel 7 he seems to be laying on the ground inside the wall, next to the pliers.

In 7 he's clarly on the wall, with the helmet near his head and an archon very close. That archon is missing the glare though.

Edit: wow, ninja'd.

[Lamech]

Eeepy! I just noticed something! Look at the undead and Ansom location's in this strip. Ansom almost fell into GK, and the undead are up front. See panel 7 and 4. Last strip the undead were on the back part of the wall. Those undead are moving around!

Thats good! (Or bad depending on your point of view.)

[One Skunk Todd]

He is on top of the wall. What you are seeing in Panel 7 as the 'pliers is the Archon with the agreement. Her glow is hard to see against the light colored surface, but it is there.

Ah, ok that makes a little more sense, Thanks.

Edit: Heh, I just noticed in panel 4 of the last strip (119) that the Archon is sticking her tongue out at Parson. :)

[mroozee]

But clicking "I accept" binds the acceptee to all the terms of the deal regardless if its a Service contract or if it falls under the UCC for sales of goods. There would be no battle of the forms and could be no dispute in that case; Correct?

If I were representing Ansom, I'd argue that this constitutes an unconscionable adhesion contract, particularly if the terms have changed.

[VariaVespasa]

The archons can attack any unit they want so long as that unit is where they're located, which is GK's airspace.

We know from the klog that garrison units that have archery can attack units in the airspace. It may apply the other way around too, and the archons may have stuff that qualifies as archery, like the assorted beams they used on the dwagons at the lake. So they might be able to use missile fire into the adjacent zones. We will see.

Can Ansom mount a unit in a different zone? if not then he cant grab an archon for a ride. He might even have trouble getting his carpet back. hmm.

[fendrin]

If I were representing Ansom, I'd argue that this constitutes an unconscionable adhesion contract, particularly if the terms have changed.

Magical contract. No doubt that the contract's fine print includes a clause about not seeking ways to nullify the contract without the consent of all parties involved (i.e. Charlescomm).

[teratorn]

Can Ansom mount a unit in a different zone? if not then he cant grab an archon for a ride.

Eeepy! I just noticed something! Look at the undead and Ansom location's in this strip. Ansom almost fell into GK, and the undead are up front. See panel 7 and 4. Last strip the undead were on the back part of the wall. Those undead are moving around!

It makes sense, they let the strong units engage Ansom, they can attack siege, and they are blocking Ansom from jumping from the wall (he might have survived that). Probably Parson can control them using Maggie and deploy them as he thinks it's best.

[Surprise!]

I am betting that when Wanda grabs those pliers it will turn out they are attuned to her. What with their so far connection with the uncroaked. The unknown powers of the Arkentool could easily turn the tide on any benefits Ansom gets for agreeing to Charlie's terms.

[Godskook]

I don't think that even if the entire defenses reloaded each turn that would make GK impervious to air attacks. After all, blowing out most of their AA in one shot only took down four units.

By my count, Jillian had at least 5 unipegataurs and 6-8 gwiffons before Wanda attacked. Only 4 of those gwiffons made it to the pass. Disregarding Orly causalties, thats at least 8-10 sizeable units that the AA took down.

[RaptorSLH]

[quote] Now, Ansom says in 119 that he thought Charlie chomped pretty hard on the idea of getting the Pliers, but that conversation in 105 doesn't read that way. [ /quote]

105 - Charlie was planning on attacking Gobwin Knob to collect the Mathamancy watch artifact and, if possible, Parson. (Or, at least, that's what he was claiming he would do.) That changed when Parson offered him the Arkenpliers. Afterwards, his stated plan was to hold back and "watch the show" unless Ansom offers enough for assistance- which means he risks losing the watch and Parson entirely. (A 40% chance of Parson being overwhelmed next turn is not negligable.) So either:

A) Parson is right, and Charles wants the pliers bad enough to take a substantial risk for them.

or

B) Charles enjoys watching a well-fought battle enough to risk substantial loss for no other purpose.

Option "B" is not impossible given human (or Erfworlder) nature, but I do find it less likely.

[kunou126]

Charlie did not agree not to attack GK forces this round. He simply said that Ansom had not given him any incentive to. If/Once Ansom agrees to the terms of the deal, Charlie will be able to attack anything within the hex his flying units can hit.

But who knows what's in that contract now? Maybe Charlie will be running the RCC now? We simply don't have enough details regarding this as yet.

I do agree that the odds have changed considerably since Parson calculated those odds for Charlie. All I know is I don't feel sorry for Ansom. His own foolish pride got him where he is now, and he has to reap what he sows.

I'm more interested to know what Jillian is thinking right now. First Wanda follows Stanley of her own choice, and now Jack has also given her a similar reaction. She really has to be wondering what's so damn special/important about Stanley.

Need... more...

[DevilDan]

By my count, Jillian had at least 5 unipegataurs and 6-8 gwiffons before Wanda attacked. Only 4 of those gwiffons made it to the pass. Disregarding Orly causalties, thats at least 8-10 sizeable units that the AA took down.

Yes, thank you. Lamech was kind enough to point out my egregious oversight too. (Does that mean that Wanda didn't have enough juice to uncroak more air units or that their corpses were far too damaged?)

If/Once Ansom agrees to the terms of the deal, Charlie will be able to attack anything within the hex his flying units can hit.

The archons could always attack units in GK airspace and only those units. The contract doesn't change that in any way, shape, or form.

[Raguzert]

Nice comic. I believe ansom wanting to ally to charlie, is so that the archons can 'legally' defend him, being in the same space. So far, it seems pretty much 'set' that when a unit attacks, it gets the advantage, but then if the opposition is not eliminated, the attacker is helpless until next turn.
While stanley going for charlie is a great plan, there's no indication of such, if only, last thing said in the matter was jack's sugestion of going back.
If charlie's contract is any good, I do hope it has a "will quit when/if I ever see fit, no reimbursements" term.